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View Full Version : Multiplayer game - Standard of Sundering Stacks?



WillFightForFood
16-06-2008, 23:45
I was wondering what people's take on a multiplayer game where there will be two Daemon players. If both of them take the Standard of sundering or the Great Icon of Despair, will those stack?

minionboy
17-06-2008, 00:23
This is why the game is written for 2 players...

shartmatau
17-06-2008, 02:28
This is why the game is written for 2 players...

exactly.
As the rules are written they would. They are not magic banners so there can be multiples of them. Its not possible in a normal army because you can only have one BSB though.

BUT...

Since Warhammer is not written for multiplayer games, you should be reasonable with opponents. So if you couldn't do it with one army then you shouldn't be able to do it with two just because they are on the same side.

Either say that the daemon army is one and can only have one BSB which could also go for the other army fighting. Or you can say that if you have two BSBs they should be different. THe daemon BSB options are all really good ( far better than most army options) so it doesn't seem in the spirit of the game to have two and definitely not have two of the same standard.
But its you game, just remember Warhammer does not suit well to multiple players even in teams.

Braad
17-06-2008, 05:39
Now, I don't know what these banner do, but usually when we do a 2 vs 2 we either play it as each side has one general and one BSB, or each side has 2 generals and BSB but they don't affect allied forces.

OldMaster
17-06-2008, 06:10
Great standart of Sundering and Great Icon of despair affect your opponent.
One gives a -2 penalty to your opponent for casting one specific lore, other subtracts 2 from the Ld of nearby enemy units.

A mean situation.

Braad
17-06-2008, 11:09
Indeed.
Well, my solution would be that you can either take two, so you have two 'bubbles' (if they have a range) of penalties running around but without any stacking, or, and this one I prefer, take only one, because they are very powerfull and obviously are not intended to be stackable with itself.

But no stacking if you ask me. -4 to leadership is a bit crazy. Also, -4 to casting... well, good luck casting anything with that. Its just a bit too much.

But it will just be things you have to agree on beforehand.

Loopstah
17-06-2008, 11:28
I'd say you could take two standards of sundering but they would have to be tuned to different Lores. Using both on the same Lore would be game-breaking.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
18-06-2008, 22:04
Yeah, that'd be pretty broken.

4000 pts VC's versus 4000 pts Daemons.

Oops....Lore of Vampires is now -4 to cast from ! Hehe.. Evil...just evil ;)

SolarHammer
18-06-2008, 23:47
And then the Vampire player marches 5 Corpse Carts with Balefire next to the Daemons.

DeathlessDraich
19-06-2008, 09:19
I haven't checked but I'm sure that the Std of Sundering is available to a BSB only. Icon of despair is BSB only.

So unless you allow more than 1 BSB per *side* there shouldn't be a problem.
Most multi-army games have 1 general and 1 BSB.

Gazak Blacktoof
19-06-2008, 19:44
Most multi-army games have 1 general and 1 BSB.

Not the ones I've seen and played in.

Anyway, this obviously neeed to be house-ruled that you can't duplicate these banners. I'd suggest discussing it with your mates.

3+ player games* are a chance to chuck lots of models about and have a bit of fun and you shouldn't be looking for the nastiest way to screw you opponents over, this isn't real war.


*Or all games!

MrBigMr
19-06-2008, 21:31
Ah, multiplaying is the best. During a local tournament we saw that in the last megabattle scenario Orcs were a good ally. Waaagh! says "all friendly models", not "all friendly Orc models."

But this is an interesting thread, as there's a doubles tournament next month and I'm seeing some daemon-daemon pairs. Have to see what happens when both get the same BSB.

Condottiere
20-06-2008, 08:06
Ah, multiplaying is the best. During a local tournament we saw that in the last megabattle scenario Orcs were a good ally. Waaagh! says "all friendly models", not "all friendly Orc models."

But this is an interesting thread, as there's a doubles tournament next month and I'm seeing some daemon-daemon pairs. Have to see what happens when both get the same BSB.

I think teaming up with the same list is not only boring, but potentially broken. Who wants to face 2 Vortex Shards except Dwarves and pure Khorne?

Jagosaja
20-06-2008, 08:46
So, imagine two HE players both charging the same unit with identical units containing War Banner and BSB with Battle Banner. Now that is insane! GO GO CR!!!

Grey Seer Skretch
20-06-2008, 09:09
Yeah...whenever the word 'stack' or any variant of it is used, I tend to shudder slightly. In this case, I just think a bit of common sense is required. It seems pretty damned unreasonable for them to be able to do that, so appeal to their sense of fair play. Not naming any names but myself and another player had a game a while back where we combined our two fantasy armies against 2 other players. Me and my ally spent the week making fun, interesting and narrative-based lists, ensuring we didn't duplicate any magic items as that seemed a bit cheesy, and generally ensuring our armies were going to be fun and interesting to play against as an alliance, treating it more like one 4000 point army than 2 2000 point ones. Our opponents showed up...late...with identical lists bar one unit, even down to having the same general on the same mount with the same items. Suffice it to say, the game was not an enjoyable experience, and we haven't played them since. Theres a lesson in there somewhere, I'm sure...

Bumble the Great
20-06-2008, 09:22
Well that sounds awefully familiar Mr skretch! I had almost forgotten about that awful awful game. So yeah back to the OP i would say if your going into a doubles game with the same army the beast way of playing it is to say you cannont duplicate magic item between the 2 forces :)

MrBigMr
20-06-2008, 10:12
I think teaming up with the same list is not only boring, but potentially broken. Who wants to face 2 Vortex Shards except Dwarves and pure Khorne?
Well, the lists are split so that one plays with 2000pts. and another one with 1000pts. So that'll cut the cheese a bit. And so far some of the daemon-on-daemon pairs aren't the most experienced players, mostly new ones (well, new ones to start an army and not borrow one), so I doubt they've mastered all the cheese.

But some armies do make insane pairings. Take a CC heavy army that's not very fast, or not fast enough, and tag team them with Orcs. Waaagh! sez "all friendly models" not "all (friendly) Orcs models." We figured that out during the last tournament which had a megabattle as its final scenario.

Gazak Blacktoof
20-06-2008, 10:33
But some armies do make insane pairings. Take a CC heavy army that's not very fast, or not fast enough, and tag team them with Orcs. Waaagh! sez "all friendly models" not "all (friendly) Orcs models." We figured that out during the last tournament which had a megabattle as its final scenario.

So nobody does an FAQ for these things when you play? In that case it seems like an exercise in trawling army books for cheese.


I think a good fix for banners like those mentioned in the original post is that they affect only one opposing player.

Condottiere
20-06-2008, 10:39
But some armies do make insane pairings. Take a CC heavy army that's not very fast, or not fast enough, and tag team them with Orcs. Waaagh! sez "all friendly models" not "all (friendly) Orcs models." We figured that out during the last tournament which had a megabattle as its final scenario.We've established that only the magic Waaagh moves all friendly troops. This is less an advantage than you may think, since troops from war-machines abandon them.;)

MrBigMr
21-06-2008, 10:33
So nobody does an FAQ for these things when you play? In that case it seems like an exercise in trawling army books for cheese.
No amount of FAQ will remove that fact that it's all friendly models. We did go over it and the wording is clear. If GW wanted it to be Orc models only, they would have said so. Many spells and abilities have stuff like "all friendly daemons" or "friendly dwarf models", etc. It's not like we sought out it, it just popped up after people were paired up.


We've established that only the magic Waaagh moves all friendly troops. This is less an advantage than you may think, since troops from war-machines abandon them.;)
Well naturally I mean by CC heavy army that they don't have stuff like that. When you have Black Knight heavy VC and Knights heavy Chaos along with that Orc player, they'll do their best to use it. But as far as I know, they never got it through. The enemy just dispeled it every time.

logan054
21-06-2008, 15:35
bit wierd that because generally you woudlnt have two generals (well two proper generals) in a game so why would you have two BSB in a game?

If you doing mutliplayer and using the same army really you should be sharing everything, its the easiest way and avoids silliness.