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kingdomblade
17-06-2008, 01:59
Hi to all, I had a game yesterday with a friend, me with orcs and goblins and him with the new vampire counts in a standard 2000pts pitched battle.

At around turn 3 his Grave Guard unit containing a very combat heavy vampire lord charged my Giant, the result was his general was just out of combat range to hit my Giant and so only one wound was caused, then the Giant striked back, rolling 1 on the chart I went on to select the vampire lord (of course) as he was touching a model the Giant was facing so could be selected. After failing to cut the giants hand he was effectively stuffed into the bag, however heres where things are interesting: the rules reads the model is effectively a casualty and can do nothing whilst in the bag, but if the giant should be slain any enemy trapped in the bag are freed unharmed at the end of the battle.

So question is should the vampire lord whos death would cause the army to start crumbling be counted as a casualty in this sense? Since hes not really out of the battle yet but simply rendered ineffective he still has the power to sustain his army through his will right? Also the rules say that as long as the giant is slain the unit will fall out thus technically hes not really removed from the game so should the undead army start to test for crumbling due to the Vampire's death?

In the end we decided that the army shouldn't test since hes not actually permanently removed and so the undead are still drawn to him.

BTW no, he never got back out of the bag :evilgrin:

What do you guys think? Cheers

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
17-06-2008, 02:08
I don't know, counts as a casualty = dead in my book. You can deal with the consequences of him coming back IF he comes back.

ehlijen
17-06-2008, 02:26
I don't quite get what you're saying. The Vampire couldn't strike the giant because he was not in btb but the giant could pick him up because he was? That doesn't work, it's one or the other.

As for the actual question: he's dead for all intents and purposes for the rest of the game but will not neccessarily yield VP. That's all the rule does, so you shoud test for crumbling.

siphon101
17-06-2008, 02:47
I don't quite get what you're saying. The Vampire couldn't strike the giant because he was not in btb but the giant could pick him up because he was? That doesn't work, it's one or the other.

Actually no. The giant special rule allows him to pick up a model that's in base to base with a model that's in base to base with him. So he doesn't have to be in BTB with the vampire to pick him up, the vampire merely needs to be in BTB with something in BTB of the giant, as per the rules of that attack.

ehlijen
17-06-2008, 06:03
Wow, really? That's unusual. I didn't know that. Never mind me then.

OldMaster
17-06-2008, 06:30
So, strangely enough, you should have tested for crumble....
Maybe the secret of necromancy is radiation coming from the vampire lord? :D that should explain....

Braad
17-06-2008, 06:34
Counts as dead = dead. Not much more to it, is there?
I don't see a vampire, even if very powerfull, being very usefull while dangling around in some stinky giants pants.

It's a cool situation though, and I don't think the rules are actually prepared for it.

kingdomblade
17-06-2008, 07:22
Thanks for the reply guys, another reason we decided not to test for crumbling was cause it was only the third turn, the lines only just clashed and we didn't want the game to end that soon. It was a friendly game after all.

drugar
17-06-2008, 09:50
On a related note, how does pick up and... work against ethereal things? This almost came up in a wraiths vs giant fight. Our best guess was, it is a non-magical attack and therefore does nothing, but it still doesn't seem quite like a normal attack to me. Also, should the attack necessarily be ineffective, does the wraith still get his free attack?

(I apologize about the bit of thread hijacking but this seemed related enough)

luckyguy
17-06-2008, 13:17
This attack certainly can create some unusual situations for vampires. What if the vampire was wearing the Carstein ring?

Guess I would also test for crumble. As dead = dead I would also bring back a vampire who had the ring.

kroq'gar
17-06-2008, 13:29
The rules prepared fine for it.

Giant killes the vampire with 'stuff in pants'. army crumbles. At some stage giant dies. This is not the 'end of the game'. Army continues to crumble. Game ends. Victory points not awarded for the vampire general.

And no saves of anykind are allowed against a giant- the model attacked gets a free attack, that can wound, as its defence.

A better question would be... if a giant attempts to pick up a vampire lord with red fury... and the vampire manages to wound, does he gain another attack?

Lord Aries
17-06-2008, 14:18
Actually in 5th edition and in 6th edition they had errata that stated that your army does not crumble from the giant's attacks that don't permanently kill your general...


The model only counts as a casualty IF he is still in the bag at the end of the game, otherwise he is just being held, but is still alive.

I beleive any larger tournament would also rule this way.

Gorbad Ironclaw
17-06-2008, 14:29
They did? I don't remember that. As I remember it the answer was that he counted as dead while the giant had him in his pants and so you would crumble until the giant was killed. It's certainly the way I would rule it.

Slyde
18-06-2008, 04:56
Except the rules for crumble state that it only happens when a vampire is permanently killed, seems like it covers situations such as this.

kroq'gar
18-06-2008, 05:12
Except the rules for crumble state that it only happens when a vampire is permanently killed, seems like it covers situations such as this.

So IF harry the hammer made him flee off the board, then the army would not crumble? (obscure but closest other 'nonperminent death').

What about when the giant 'squashes' the vampire. "suffice to say the model is removed as a casualty".

Doesnt say hes "perminantly killed"

Perminantly killed is removed from play without any ability to return. Remember, a model freed from the giants pants does not come back into play.

Braad
18-06-2008, 08:17
So IF harry the hammer made him flee off the board, then the army would not crumble? (obscure but closest other 'nonperminent death').

What about when the giant 'squashes' the vampire. "suffice to say the model is removed as a casualty".

Doesnt say hes "perminantly killed"

Perminantly killed is removed from play without any ability to return. Remember, a model freed from the giants pants does not come back into play.

Well, actually, a model that is freed from a giant does come back into play AFAIK.

I think "squashed" and "permanently killed" is the same. It more or less boils down to the fact that he is, in fact, dead and not going to stand up again.

Models fleeing of the board are treated as a casualty, and are thus considered "permanently killed" since they cannot ever come back.

If the VC rules say "permanently killed" then I would say that the VC in a bag does not cause crumble since he is only in the bag as long as the giant still lives.

Feefait
18-06-2008, 13:58
Yeah I guess it would come down to more what the VC book says then the giant attack rules. We probably would have ruled that they crumbled. As he was at that point a casualy, and being in a giants pocket he has more concerns then now directing his army. IF he is not there to be actively commanding his troops, then they would fall apart, IMO.

Good questions though.

DeathlessDraich
18-06-2008, 14:34
then the Giant striked back, rolling 1 on the chart I went on to select the vampire lord (of course) as he was touching a model the Giant was facing so could be selected. After failing to cut the giants hand he was effectively stuffed into the bag, however heres where things are interesting: the rules reads the model is effectively a casualty and can do nothing whilst in the bag, but if the giant should be slain any enemy trapped in the bag are freed unharmed at the end of the battle.

So question is should the vampire lord whos death would cause the army to start crumbling be counted as a casualty in this sense?

This has been discussed a few times before and the new VC does offer a solution - (1).

Before venturing to explain the situation I would like to say that the Giant's rules are openly contradictory and it is always a good idea to clarify and discuss its rules [and the points, (3),(4),(5) etc below] before the battle.

1) The VC general forces crumbling when he is killed. This is further clarified in the VC rulebook as a state when he is "permanently removed" and "dead".
The rule is necessary especially because of the Carstein Ring.
I don't think that being Stuffed into the Giant's bag is permanent removal. The model in the bag is a *casualty*

2) There is an important difference between being "dead" or being a "casualty" in Warhammer.
A model which is dead is a casualty but a casualty is not necessarily dead - Read pg 31.

Therefore there should be no crumbling if the VC general is Stuffed into bag.


3) Pg 32 - models must allocate their attacks before it is resolved is *exactly the same for giants* - "they select their victims as normal".
i.e. if they attack a character/champion, they cannot attack RnF.

4) "Which table you use depends on the Giant's victim" seems fine
But
"When fighting characters on mounts, decide to attack rider or mount and then use the appropriate table"
This indicates that the victim of the Giant's Sp attacks is chosen *before* choosing the table.

5) For Pick up and... characters/champions *cannot* be picked up unless the Giant specifically chose to attack them.
If it has then the attack ends when the Pick up another occurs since the Giant cannot attack RnF.
If the Giant attacks RnF, characters and sometimes champions will be unaffected.

There are other ways of resolving this conundrum but my interpretation above does abide with the rules.

Braad
18-06-2008, 19:41
Hmm, yes, I remember thinking more or less the same when reading those rules.
However, about 4), you can also interpret them like this: If you fight a character on monster, you have to decide which one it attacks and then pick the right table, and maybe they tell you to do this because normally, when fighting something that is not a character on a monstrous mount, you first roll on the table and then grab any target you like if you roll the "pick up and..." result.

So, against any other target, the giant just rolls on the table without picking a specific target in the unit, because it won't make any difference on the table result, while when you attack a mounted character, you have two different tables involved, instead of one, so this is mentioned to be an exceptional situation where you first pick the target before choosing the table.

Also, if you ask me, the same would go for salamander hunting packs.

Or, to put it in a different way, if you have one big unit with mixed models, of which part are ogre sized, and part are man-sized, you don't actually pick a model to attack, but you pick the size you attack, just because it is important with regard to the table you use. Which model you target after rolling doesn't matter, as long as it is the approriate size.

I hope I explain it a bit clearly, I find it difficult to find the right wording...

kroq'gar
19-06-2008, 02:49
The vampires not freed from the pants until the end of the battle.


your reading way to much into this


Vampire removed.
Army begins crumble for remainder of the game.
If giants killed during the battle then no victory points are awarded for the vampire (he is freed at the END of the battle).

][nquist0r
21-06-2008, 04:25
1) The VC general forces crumbling when he is killed. This is further clarified in the VC rulebook as a state when he is "permanently removed" and "dead".
The rule is necessary especially because of the Carstein Ring.
I don't think that being Stuffed into the Giant's bag is permanent removal. The model in the bag is a *casualty*
Treated as dead.

Um, your wrong. A causalty is for all intent and purposes treated as dead. As previously mentioned it would be hard to direct his minons as he is wrestling with the giant's junk. There is an allowance for freeing him at the end of the game though for VP reasons.



2) There is an important difference between being "dead" or being a "casualty" in Warhammer.
A model which is dead is a casualty but a casualty is not necessarily dead - Read pg 31.

Therefore there should be no crumbling if the VC general is Stuffed into bag.
Using this line of reasoning, I imagine you would also dispute the "SQUASH" result (This doesnt really bear thinking about. Suffice to say that the model becomes a casualty and is removed from game.)



3) Pg 32 - models must allocate their attacks before it is resolved is *exactly the same for giants* - "they select their victims as normal".
i.e. if they attack a character/champion, they cannot attack RnF.
Where did you get this from? My book reads, "They are far too scatterbrained to have any sort of coherant plan. In fact, once in combat even the giant doesnt really know what he's going to do next..." This is in regards to small targets of course not large targets. Large targets must be selected as regularly. In fact almost all the small target results are treated as shooting, so you expect the giant's general to select illegal options? "Oh I will only jump up and down ON your general if I do, except if I swing with club, or... *Yawn*



4) "Which table you use depends on the Giant's victim" seems fine
But
"When fighting characters on mounts, decide to attack rider or mount and then use the appropriate table"
This indicates that the victim of the Giant's Sp attacks is chosen *before* choosing the table.

I agree.



5) For Pick up and... characters/champions *cannot* be picked up unless the Giant specifically chose to attack them.
If it has then the attack ends when the Pick up another occurs since the Giant cannot attack RnF.
If the Giant attacks RnF, characters and sometimes champions will be unaffected.


This would be both against the rules of the giant and the targeting rules for shooting attacks in the BRB. Nice try, but overall I give you a C- in logic. A + B = C not D. Thanks for playing.:rolleyes:

DeathlessDraich
21-06-2008, 10:50
Read the rules again - pg 31, 32 and the Giant's rules carefully this time, before commenting please.

You have missed several rules.

I suggest you read previous threads on Giant's rules so that you can fully understand its inherent problems.

][nquist0r
21-06-2008, 17:19
Um I dont need to "carefully" read (I have! see quotes above), or like you try to "interpret" rules. I know how my giant works, its you that needs to take the rules at face value. Giants have enough "problems" staying alive (giant soft target) without people (like you) creating "interpretations" to nerf them.

Urgat
21-06-2008, 17:50
5) For Pick up and... characters/champions *cannot* be picked up unless the Giant specifically chose to attack them.
If it has then the attack ends when the Pick up another occurs since the Giant cannot attack RnF.
If the Giant attacks RnF, characters and sometimes champions will be unaffected.

There are other ways of resolving this conundrum but my interpretation above does abide with the rules.

"The giant stoops down and selects a model (Giant player's choice)"

That means I pick whatever model I want, coz I'm the player and it's my choice.
Then, if a 6 is rolled, the giant "attempts to pick up another victim". Which brings us back to "giant player's choice". And if I want to pick up the champion, or the lord, or the zombie, I may do so, because, as the rules tell me, it's up to me, it's my choice.
So no, you can pick whatever you want, no silly stuff like if I pick a champion I cannot pick up another RnF dude next.
What the hell :eyebrows:

EvC
21-06-2008, 18:03
Actually in 5th edition and in 6th edition they had errata that stated that your army does not crumble from the giant's attacks that don't permanently kill your general...

Oh how I would LOVE to see a source that says this...

logan054
21-06-2008, 18:06
Oh how I would LOVE to see a source that says this...

I've seen that errata, will taking a hit on pipe ;)

Please, your general dosnt enter the game again even if you kill the giant, hes dead, if you kill the giant its VP denial, thats it.

][nquist0r
21-06-2008, 19:32
"The giant stoops down and selects a model (Giant player's choice)"

That means I pick whatever model I want, coz I'm the player and it's my choice.
Then, if a 6 is rolled, the giant "attempts to pick up another victim". Which brings us back to "giant player's choice". And if I want to pick up the champion, or the lord, or the zombie, I may do so, because, as the rules tell me, it's up to me, it's my choice.
So no, you can pick whatever you want, no silly stuff like if I pick a champion I cannot pick up another RnF dude next.
What the hell :eyebrows:

Amen! I once picked up 2 vampire characters sucessfully! The general and a caster. Man did Plaguerus pay for himself that day!

DeathlessDraich
21-06-2008, 21:40
"The giant stoops down and selects a model (Giant player's choice)"

That means I pick whatever model I want, coz I'm the player and it's my choice.
Then, if a 6 is rolled, the giant "attempts to pick up another victim". Which brings us back to "giant player's choice". And if I want to pick up the champion, or the lord, or the zombie, I may do so, because, as the rules tell me, it's up to me, it's my choice.
So no, you can pick whatever you want, no silly stuff like if I pick a champion I cannot pick up another RnF dude next. :

You have failed to adhere to basic combat rules and ignored part of the Giant's rules.



What the hell :eyebrows:

Expletives like this are unacceptably rude.

Urgat
21-06-2008, 23:17
You have failed to adhere to basic combat rules and ignored part of the Giant's rules.

The part where it says that it doesn't follow normal combat rules I assume? Or the one that says that it follows the rules for choosing enemies, then goes on with explaining how it does not actually follow them, maybe?
The matter was in regard to target selection, and I picked up the part of the rules dealing with target selection.
You fail to say what is wrong in my way of reading the rules.
As for my comment, sorry if it sounded rude, it was just a genuine reaction to your rule reading suggestion. Not that it is any more rude than your way of answering like you were all knowledgeable and mighty and barely condescended to lower yourself to my level to answer. But I'll spare you the need to go through such a painful experience again, the argument is so silly it is not worth discussing, so I'll get the heck out of it now, since I certainly don't want to get involved in what I can see coming next.

][nquist0r
22-06-2008, 02:23
Bah, its not even worth the warning I'll get, I'm with you Urgat. I suppose Deathless wins by default. Hurray my Giant is worthless (well more worthless...) Bang up job on trolling dude!

Lord Aries
22-06-2008, 03:14
If you play in a GT or an INDY GT I can promise you that 99.9% of the judges will go with, pick any model you feel like, including a VC lord or whatever...


AND that they don't crumble when a VC lord is put in a bag.

StormCrow
22-06-2008, 03:35
As others have stated if you stuff the vampire into a bag he is effectively a casualty. If you read the rules of the attack carefully it says specifically that if you kill the giant then any characters in his bag are freed AT THE END OF THE GAME. Killing the giant denies VP's for your vampire lord, however your army still crumbles in the mean time because there is no one to lead them. After all it is hard to concentrate when you are in a bag full of cows and sheep and mere inches away from a giants crotch...

And also, with all the special rules vampires get if they are unable to hit and wound against a giant their army deserves to crumble

chaos0xomega
22-06-2008, 07:15
I'm throwing my lot in with the crumblers.
First of all, allowing the Vampire to "live" when it is technically and effectively removed from play denies the giant's owner any way of causing crumble on the enemy army, as he can't (to my knowledge) voluntarily free the vampire/return it to play.

Now, I don't have the VC army book, so I can't say for certain, but the rule says that the model is effectively a casualty, and a quick glance in the warhammer fantasy rulebook under the Removing Casualties Section of the Shooting Phase(albeit under the rules for single would infantry), "one model isremoved as a 'kill.' Individual warriors are not necessarily dead, they may just be too badly wounded to fight on. For our purposes, the result is the same so we treat all casualties as if they were killed and remove them.

So basically, the removed model is "effectively" a casualty. Casualty means dead/killed and they are removed from play. Apparently the Crumble rule states that the model had to be "permanently killed" in order for crumble to be caused. Since Casualty = kill as per the removing casualty rules, and a vampire in a bag is "effectively a casualty," then the Vampire is effectively killed. Can the Vampire be returned to play by slaying the Giant? No it cannot. Can the vampire be returned by any special ability? No it cannot. Since the Vampire cannot be returned to play for any reason, and it is effectively killed, then that means that it's removal from play is absolute, i.e. permanent. Therefore, the vampire is "permanently killed" and the army crumbles.

Case closed, bring out the sexy chicks in bikini's and the lemonade!

DeathlessDraich
22-06-2008, 14:10
The part where it says that it doesn't follow normal combat rules I assume? Or the one that says that it follows the rules for choosing enemies, then goes on with explaining how it does not actually follow them, maybe?
The matter was in regard to target selection, and I picked up the part of the rules dealing with target selection.
You fail to say what is wrong in my way of reading the rules.
As for my comment, sorry if it sounded rude, it was just a genuine reaction to your rule reading suggestion. Not that it is any more rude than your way of answering like you were all knowledgeable and mighty and barely condescended to lower yourself to my level to answer. But I'll spare you the need to go through such a painful experience again, the argument is so silly it is not worth discussing, so I'll get the heck out of it now, since I certainly don't want to get involved in what I can see coming next.

1) My previous comment on rule reading was not directed at you. I do apologise if my post came across as condescending.

2) If you read my first post on the matter I did explicitly state that the Giant's rules are nebulous and heavily debated and in an actual game it is necessary to discuss these rules.
I don't think any player can confidently say that this or that is *totally* correct for the Giant's special attacks since there are blatant rule conflicts.

IIRC, 5 or so of the Giant's attacks conflict [or cause problems] with some BRB rules and has never been resolved with FAQs.

3) I have simply offered a solution for the Pick up and...problem. It is definitely not airtight but more compatible with the other rules.

4) The original question is tied in with the interpretation of Killing Blow. Any proferred solution must work for both Killing blow and VC crumbling.

Some posts have argued about the words 'casualty', 'slain' and 'killed' *without* any reference to the Warhammer meanings of these terms - given on pg 31.

i) Pick up and - uses the term "casualty"

ii) VC crumbling - uses the term 'dead' and qualifies it further as 'permanently removed'.

iii) Pg 31 clearly states that a casualty is *not* dead.

Whatever interpretation you choose must take the 3 rules above into account.

Urgat
22-06-2008, 14:46
snip

"bows"
I was expecting a more agressive reply. My mood ain't pretty these days it seems.
About casualties, the BRB says that for all accounts, a casualty, be it dead or not, is dealt with in the same way, so I don't believe the different terms usages are much of an issue. It is bound to happen, when someone writes rules about fights, that he will say, at some point, that the miniis have been killed, or are dead. The casualty clarification (that wether they're actually dead or not) is, imho, here especially in order to avoid such problems.
The rules say that, unless it is for pursuing an enemy unit, anything that leaves the table is considered lost. This bears true for being put in a giant's pants, I think, as much as it bears true as a unit that fled out of the table. It is not dead, it is probably not even wounded, still, it is a casualty in game terms, and gives the opponent VP.
The fact that the mini is "brought back" at the end of the battle in case of slain giant is there to avoid a contradiction with that statement above (something not on the table is lost), regarding the VP denial.

As for the problem at hand, dunno, really. Would I make the undead crumble?
I guess not. The vampire is gone, he won't have any effect on the battle anymore anyway. The undead dude lost his general, his main caster probably. It's an uphill battle for him anyway, from that point. Having the army crumble would be boring.
The whole crumbling thing is boring anyway. Crumbling shouldn't be armywide, it should be like character A is linked to unit 1,2 and 3, character B linked to unit 4 and 5, etc. Would be more fun that way, would give a meaning to going after the other vampires/necromancers, and wouldn't be instant game over if the general is slain. But I digress.

DeathlessDraich
22-06-2008, 15:08
1) This are the important rules from pg 31 under the heading
*Casualties*

", one model is removed as a 'kill' " - N.B. 'kill' in inverted commas
followed by

"Individual warriors are not necessarily dead"
- differentiating 'dead' and 'casualty' or 'removed model'
followed by

"may be just too badly wounded to carry on"
another confirmation that casualties are not necessarily dead

and then [the phrase you quoted]
"so we treat all casualties *as if* they were killed"

the 'as if' is important

Wouldn't you agree that these rules differentiate 'dead' or 'killed' from the word 'casualty'?


One other problem with the original question:

Q If the Vampire Stuffed into the Giant's bag is not dead and he is the VC general can he pass on his Ld?

Pg 82 - states the General's Ld is *always* used unless he is fleeing [practically impossible except maybe for VC except for 2 special cases].

It also obviously cannot be used when the VC general is dead or removed.

Can the Gen's Ld be used when the VC general is a casualty that is *not* removed?

My personal opinion:
1 concession is enough! Not crumbling and still using the Gen's Ld seems to be asking far too much.

Ivan Stupidor
22-06-2008, 15:21
Some posts have argued about the words 'casualty', 'slain' and 'killed' *without* any reference to the Warhammer meanings of these terms - given on pg 31.

i) Pick up and - uses the term "casualty"

ii) VC crumbling - uses the term 'dead' and qualifies it further as 'permanently removed'.

iii) Pg 31 clearly states that a casualty is *not* dead.

Whatever interpretation you choose must take the 3 rules above into account.

Your argument fall apart because
1) The rulebook never gives a definition for "slain" or "killed" on pg 31, and also no where else in the rulebook. The VC book defines "dead" as "permanently removed".
2) Pg 31 says "casualties are not necessarily dead" (my emphasis), not that they are never dead. So a model that becomes a "casualty" can also become "dead" via the same action.

Therefore, since the Giant's attack makes the Vampire a casualty (as stated in the Giant rules), and he is permanently removed from the game (satisfying the conditions for "dead" in the Vampire rules), the army starts to crumble.

It should be noted that, among other things, your logic makes it impossible to score Victory points for units destroyed or the enemy general (as they give up victory points only when you cause the undefined conditions "slain" and "destroyed"). Also, since a Vampire is removed as a casualty when he loses all his wounds (which your rule (i) states is not dead), the VC army never, under any conditions, will suffer from crumbling.

Loopstah
22-06-2008, 15:24
Wouldn't you agree that these rules differentiate 'dead' or 'killed' from the word 'casualty'?


They do, however the difference doesn't matter because casualties are treated "as if" they were killed. So they are treated exactly the same as a model that has been killed.

So it doesn't matter if the Vampire is a casualty or if they have been killed or are dead, the result is the same in game terms.

Crumbling applies when the general is killed.
Becoming a casualty is treated as if the model had been killed.
When the general becomes a casualty the army crumbles, because he is treated as if he had been killed.

Also if you look at the rule in the VC book crumbling always applies when the general is killed except in one case, which is if:

"the general is taken below one wound, but regenerates or otherwise regains enough wounds to come back"

When a giant stuffs a vampire in his back he does not take him below one wound so the exception can't apply, so crumbling happens. It doesn't matter if the vampire is returned at the end of the game, he doesn't match the criteria for not applying crumbling, though he does match the criteria for being killed (a casualty).

drugar
22-06-2008, 16:18
Yeah, I think the "permanently dead" means for the purposes of the battle. Meaning, whether or not the vampire is alive after the battle is more a matter of fluff (unless it matters for VPs, but then it only really matters for VPs and fluff). I think Loopstah is correct in his interpretation, the rule that is giving us so much trouble is just there in case the vampire has a brief time of being more dead than usual, then comes back from the carstein ring or something. But once, the piece is off the table and not coming back for the rest of the game (save pursuing off the table turn 6) the army should start crumbling.

chaos0xomega
22-06-2008, 16:25
Your argument fall apart because
1) The rulebook never gives a definition for "slain" or "killed" on pg 31, and also no where else in the rulebook. The VC book defines "dead" as "permanently removed".
2) Pg 31 says "casualties are not necessarily dead" (my emphasis), not that they are never dead. So a model that becomes a "casualty" can also become "dead" via the same action.

Therefore, since the Giant's attack makes the Vampire a casualty (as stated in the Giant rules), and he is permanently removed from the game (satisfying the conditions for "dead" in the Vampire rules), the army starts to crumble.

It should be noted that, among other things, your logic makes it impossible to score Victory points for units destroyed or the enemy general (as they give up victory points only when you cause the undefined conditions "slain" and "destroyed"). Also, since a Vampire is removed as a casualty when he loses all his wounds (which your rule (i) states is not dead), the VC army never, under any conditions, will suffer from crumbling.

If you want to argue semantics, A vampire army would NEVER test for crumbling, for Vampires are UNdead, and as such cannot be rendered DEAD except by very few means, none of which/most of which are not readily available in a Warhammer Fantasy army.

Kinda puts a huge hole in any argument saying that the army doesn't crumble, doesn't it...

Urgat
22-06-2008, 17:26
Yeah, I think the "permanently dead" means for the purposes of the battle. Meaning, whether or not the vampire is alive after the battle is more a matter of fluff (unless it matters for VPs, but then it only really matters for VPs and fluff). I think Loopstah is correct in his interpretation, the rule that is giving us so much trouble is just there in case the vampire has a brief time of being more dead than usual, then comes back from the carstein ring or something. But once, the piece is off the table and not coming back for the rest of the game (save pursuing off the table turn 6) the army should start crumbling.


Well, Deathlessdraich's logic kinds of helps in regard to the ring, at least. He's not "killed" per say, so can't be resurected by the ring. In any case, that attack is too special for the ring to work: there's no wound removed, why would it come back with one wound, then? No ring for me, in that case (btw, I'm an undead player too, just in case I'd be accused of wanting to bend the rules in my favour).

drugar
23-06-2008, 06:21
I hadn't even thought about whether or not the ring would work in this case, it is just things like the ring that I think were the reason for including the word "permanently" before dead in the text for when to start crumbling and that something like "for game play purposes" should probably be reasonably added. Meaning, it doesn't matter if the vampire is truly dead after the battle, just whether or not he has been removed from the game in such a way that he cannot come back.