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Fideru
18-06-2008, 01:29
Alright, well, I have a bunch of queries after watching a game of horrible pain with Ogre Kingdoms destroying High Elves.

1. When an over-run happens, does the unit that is getting the over-run get impact hits for the over-run? Or just a normal charge otherwise.
2. Does a sword gnoblar instantaneously hit?
3. When a cannon takes out a full column of any 20-mm base models, do they auto-fill and you take casualties from the back? Or do you just leave them empty to have to reform next turn.
4. When your over-run goes into another unit, and you completely wipe that unit, is it another over-run? Or what happens there?
5. With spears, do the ranks have to be full 5 man ranks in order to use the special weapon bonus of fighting in two (well, in HE case three) ranks? Or could you have four across and still have the rank behind fight?
6. When being charged, can you challenge the other unit? Or are you forced to wait until they are done their attacks, and the unit champion/hero/lord fight again? :eyebrows:
7. Do Leadbelchers hit on 4's? There must be some penalty.
8. Can a tooth gnoblar get a otherwise fail to cast 2 to a succesful casting of 3?
9. Do Tyrants have US6 and thus gain the flank bonus? As well for 360 LOS and no flanks/rear?
10. When a Tyrant is in front of a unit, can he simply go, say 6" off to the side of a unit and flank it? Or does he have to go straight in?
11. Can a unit of bulls run backwards, than forwards to get the bull charge bonus?

I'm sure there is more, but I do not remember at the current moment.
I do not have the OK rulebook, but, it seemed a bit off for all that. My group is having hard troubles facing the Ogres, even though online it seems that they are one of the weakest armies.

Oenghus
18-06-2008, 01:39
I'm not sure about the Ogre-specific questions, but some of the other stuff I can handle.

1) Impact hits, yes. However, Ogres have to be a certain distance away from their target in order to get impact hits at all, so that's something you'd have to take into consideration.

2) ?

3) You take the casualties from the back (unless a champion/character is killed). Rank and file troopers fill in the gaps. No need to reform.

4) I believe that you can only over-run or pursue once per combat phase. If you over-run into an unengaged enemy unit, the combat's fought in the next turn. If you over-run into an unresolved combat, your over-running unit takes part in the combat but can't pursue or over-run again. The other (allied) unit in the combat can pursue/over-run, however.

5) I don't think you need to be five-wide to take advantage of spears. Why would a player be denying himself a free CR bonus, however?

6) You challenge before combat, but after impact hits. The hero/champion/whatever certainly doesn't get to fight twice.

7-9) ?

Fideru
18-06-2008, 01:43
5) I don't think you need to be five-wide to take advantage of spears. Why would a player be denying himself a free CR bonus, however?

Well, it happened the cannon took out 4 models on the end of a unit, and he forgot to re-form it (because apparently you needed to) and the unit got charged right after.

Well, for #2 and 7-9, you said you didn't know OK stuff, but I thank you for your help anyways :)

Lord Aries
18-06-2008, 02:32
Ok I can answer all those questions, but after reading them, I am going to say that your ogre player(s) are probably cheating... its the only way they could be whooping up on you. I say this based on your rules questions...

1. they can cause impact hits if they moved 6" or more with ogres. The impact hits happen on the NEXT turn unless the ogres run into an unresolved combat. That is clearly covered in the BRB... so you can easily find and show your opponent this.

2. Sword Gnoblars roll to hit using the character that took the gnob's WS, and are str 2... they are pretty horrible. Also in the OK book, so easy to find.

3. remove models that have been killed from shooting, from the rear of the unit. Never a reason you will have to reform.

4. 1 Overrun per turn for each unit.... also in the BRB. Each unit can overrun up to 1 time per turn.

5. You can have less than 5 models in file, and still use spears in ranks. However remember you cannot use spears if engaged in the flank. BRB answers this pretty well.

6. The enemy that charged is allowed to challenge first, if they do not declare a challenge, you are then free to challenge, AND THEN you resolve combat. Also... many people do challenges wrong, but the rules in the BRB are pretty clear on how to do it, so just read them well.

7. Yes, they pretty much hit on 4's. They do not suffer movement or range penalties. Their negative, is that they are expensive, and can only fire once ever other turn. You can still get a -1 to hit from being skirmishers, or being in cover etc.

8. No, you must roll a 3 or higher on the die to make it successful. that is in the BRB, and pretty clear that you have to ROLL the 3 or higher. The tooth gnoblars are pretty good for just making it harder to dispel spells... don't worry this is a rule most novice players get wrong.

9. They are US3. there is an item that makes them US6 on the turn they charge... BUT ONLY on the turn they count as charging. Yes they can negate ranks with it. However, it is clear that single ogres use monster movement and LOS rules and are NOT 360. Its in the OK and BRB... a lot of novice players get it wrong.

10. You can only charge the side that you are facing at the begining of the turn, even if you had 1000000 movement, if you start in the front of the unit, you have to charge the front of the unit. Obviously, this is in the BRB and is pretty bad cheating or incompetence for people to try it on you.

11. No... also pure cheating. BRB covers that you can/must move as fast as possible towards the enemy and are only allowed to wheel once during it. HOWEVER there is a legal but ****** sportsman move where you can OVER-WHEEL in order to make sure you move 6".

alextroy
18-06-2008, 02:32
1. An overrun Charge counts as a normal charge, except the charged unit may only declare Hold and Flee as charge reactions (no Stand and Shoot). Ogre units that move at least half their charge distance (i.e. 6") may inflict Impact Hits.

2. Sword gnoblars add S2 Attacks, which have to hit like everyone else. If memory serves me right, they use the character's WS.

3. Shooting causalities are taken from the back rank. Once the back rank is dead, they are taken from the sides, alternating from left to right.

4. A unit may only make one pursuit move per Turn. An overrun is a pursuit move.

5. There is no minimum frontage for using spears Fight in Two Ranks ability.

6. Challenges are declared after Impact Hits are resolved, but before any attacks are made by either side. The player who's turn it is has first opportunity to declare a challenge, but his opponent may declare one if he doesn't.

7. Leadblechers do not suffer penalities for Moving, Long Range, or Multiple Shots. Other modifiers to shooting still apply.

8. If the casting dice do not total at least 3, a spell always fails regardless of bonuses to cast.

9. All Ogres, including Tyrants, are US3 Infantry. As they are not US1, they do not have 360 LOS. They therefore always have a flank and rear.

10. As with all units, a lone Tyrant must charge the side of the unit he is in and maximize models in combat.

11. Charging Units can only wheel and then only once during a charge. Moving backwards is really Turn 180 degrees, Move, Turn 180 degrees and is therefore impossible to do while charging.

Hope that helps.

Fideru
18-06-2008, 02:58
1. An overrun Charge counts as a normal charge, except the charged unit may only declare Hold and Flee as charge reactions (no Stand and Shoot). Ogre units that move at least half their charge distance (i.e. 6") may inflict Impact Hits.
Alright, than that was played out alright.

2. Sword gnoblars add S2 Attacks, which have to hit like everyone else. If memory serves me right, they use the character's WS.
This was just more of a general question, since he said they auto hit, just need to wound.

3. Shooting causalities are taken from the back rank. Once the back rank is dead, they are taken from the sides, alternating from left to right.
Thank you, just needed to make sure.

4. A unit may only make one pursuit move per Turn. An overrun is a pursuit move.
So, would they just stand there after the second unit was destroyed?

7. Leadblechers do not suffer penalities for Moving, Long Range, or Multiple Shots. Other modifiers to shooting still apply.
This was a curiosity thing as well, since he mentioned that he could hit skirmishers at long range in hard cover on 4's.

8. If the casting dice do not total at least 3, a spell always fails regardless of bonuses to cast.
Alright, sweet.

9. All Ogres, including Tyrants, are US3 Infantry. As they are not US1, they do not have 360 LOS. They therefore always have a flank and rear.
Even better! So that means they must see the unit before they charge right?

10. As with all units, a lone Tyrant must charge the side of the unit he is in and maximize models in combat.
Wait, maximize models in combat? What does that mean?

11. Charging Units can only wheel and then only once during a charge. Moving backwards is really Turn 180 degrees, Move, Turn 180 degrees and is therefore impossible to do while charging.
Alright, thank you for clarifying.

Hope that helps.That has helped a great deal, thank you everyone!

All my message is in quote above.

Can anybody refer me to certain parts of the Rulebook, as well as the Ogre Kingdom book for this? I don't want to clarify these rules with him without actually having it down on paper.

Lord Aries
18-06-2008, 05:30
The rule for maximizing models in combat, states that you have to try and get as many models from both sides into combat. You cannot just charge and have your Tyrant touching just 1 model corner to corner to try and prevent people from hurting your unit. Its called "clipping" If you can charge and get all your guys into combat, you have to. In addition you need to get as many of the enemy troops engaged as well.


I think that it would serve you much better to NOT give you the page numbers etc. I think a thorough reading of the BRB with these questions in mind will serve to cement the rules with you for longer, and make you a better player, or at least a better rules lawyer.



P.S. Even tho this is borderline bad sportsmanship... On the topic of charging, moving 6" to get bull charge impact hits. You are allowed 1 wheel during a charge, and only 1 wheel. You must use this wheel to get as many models in combat as you can. Sometimes you are only 4" away from the enemy, and only NEED to do a 1" wheel to maximize models... if you did this, you would have moved only 5" and would not get impact hits. However, many times you can "overwheel" and wheel 2-4" as long as you are maximizing models in combat and get the bull charge impacts. Its easy to show you in person, but I see it done a lot and not too many people whine about it.

Braad
18-06-2008, 07:59
Just a little bit more about nr. 5, the fighting in ranks. Remember here that there is a huge difference between "ranks" and "rank bonus". A rank is something you already have if you put two soldiers next to each other on the battlefield. One rank is one line of soldiers in a unit. The rank bonus is what you get for having big ranks, nowadays for every rank of at least 5 models behind the first rank.
If you keep this little difference in mind, you should be able to solve most rank-based things.

Fideru
18-06-2008, 15:07
I think that it would serve you much better to NOT give you the page numbers etc. I think a thorough reading of the BRB with these questions in mind will serve to cement the rules with you for longer, and make you a better player, or at least a better rules lawyer.

Well, I did end up getting them. Suprisingly enough, I have read the rulebook, but, I cannot retain the information too much :S Specially with being the guy who remembers 40k, Necromunda, Battlefleet Gothic, and Mordheim, it sorta sucks.

Oenghus
18-06-2008, 15:50
How did the Ogre player react when you laid out his lapses for him? Did he twirl his long mustaches, look shifty, and dive out a window?

drugar
18-06-2008, 18:58
First off, I don't know why everyone is so quickly jumping to accuse the Ogre player of cheating. With that multitude of rules questions it sounds much more likely to me that he just didn't know what he was doing...

As far as wheeling for a bull charge goes... I don't think that works (except in maybe a few very odd situations). The reason being, the rule says all of the ogres in the unit must move at least 6". A wheel can make some of them move significantly more, but only on the border of 6" and at the right position will it make it a legal bull charge.

Shimmergloom
18-06-2008, 19:38
For the US6 tyrant. There's a magic armor that ogres can use that makes them US6 on the turn that they charge.

So if they can get a flank/rear charge off, while wearing this armor, for that turn of combat, they will negate the enemies ranks.