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eagletsi1
18-06-2008, 15:27
Ok. I'm a High Elf Player and last night when I was playing a game versus vampires. The Cart successfully casted the spell making zombies have ASF.

His Zombie then danced into my Spear Elves. According the the FAQ as I read it. His Zombies would go first because they charged and when Two Models with ASF fight. Effectively ASF cancels each other and combat takes place as normal.

So His Zombies go first in this round because of the charge, in the next round his zombies still have ASF, but the Spear Elves will go first because of Initiative. Thats how I interpret the rule.

Anyway some other High Elf player player watching tells me that it still works by Initiative and that even though he charged I still strike first because I have higher Initiative. Some other ORC guy also agrees with this. They both tell me that only if I have a Great Sword does the charger go first.

Now is there a FAQ that is different then the Original, because it looks to me that Those two are not reading what is written in the FAQ.

Anyway I let the zombies strike first with the crown and they killed 3 spear elves, only allowing 12 to strike back and in the following round all 15 struck first.

Did I play it correctly, Help please?

thanks,

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-06-2008, 15:32
Well, the rule is that ASF vs ASF goes straight to initiative.

The FAQ states the same, except in the case of Great Weapons.

So, going on evidence, the Zombos should have struck last, I'd imagine.

Malorian
18-06-2008, 15:39
In the FAQ the answer says:

"In this case, the model with the great weapon strikes last. Effectively the two alwasys strikes first rules would cancel each other out."

So it clears up the question about great weapons still going last and also says the two ASF cancel out.

You played it correctly. Chargers still go first because the ASFs cancel out.

eagletsi1
18-06-2008, 15:44
So now I have two very well respected players telling me two different things?

This is very frustrating.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-06-2008, 15:49
I'm just going on what the FAQ says about a question specifically about Great Weapons in that situation.

If you like, you could consider charging to grant an immediate I10, and Great Weapons to grant a permanent I1 in these situations.

Either way is acceptable, just discuss it with your opponents before hand and come to an agreement.

eagletsi1
18-06-2008, 15:59
Are you saying that Great Weapons always go last even on the charge if both models have ASF.

Because the BRB states models with Great Weapons don't count as always strikes last on the charge.

Anyway I hope Tournament Organizers clearly state how they will rule, so there won't be discussion's about it during games.

I still think the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principal applies and that what GW was trying to get at.

If two models with ASF fight then Effectively both models cancel each other out and resort to normal rules, chargers, then initiative. Simple

eagletsi

isidril93
18-06-2008, 16:00
asf cancels each other out so for exapmle a prince on dragon chargeing a kos would have the prince attacking first

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-06-2008, 16:29
Looks like it's best to go with ASF cancelling each other out then!

Perhaps my previous post was a little vague. What I was meaning is that when charging, Great Weapons, like everyone else, gain a temporary I10, and at all other times, count as I1.

Sorry for any confusion!

Prophet of Quetzl
18-06-2008, 17:10
The thing to remember about this FAQ is that it addresses a specific question about two troops with ASF one of which has a GWs; neither is stated as having charged. The FAQ answers this question using the rules already in the 7th ed BRB (see * below). The answer reads "In this case, the model with the great weapon strikes last. Effectively the two always strike first rules would cancel each other out." (empasis mine).

The OP asks a different question concerning ASF vs. ASF where neither side has GWs but one has charged. The FAQ cannot be used to answer this different question so we have to use the printed rules in the BRB:

The ASF rule (BRB p94) says that ASF strikes first even before chargers and regardless of initiative. It also says that if both have ASF use initiative (and dice of a tied initiative).

Soooo, in the OP's example, the zombies and spearelves both have ASF therefore who charged is irrelevant and the first attack would go to the troops with the higher initiative: the spearelves.

Still (as with any rule) there is nothing wrong with using another interpretation if both players agree to it.


______________________________


* by this I mean:
ASF (BRB p94) says if both have ASF revert to initiative
GW rules (BRB p56) include the strikes last rule
strikes last (BRB pp55-56) says that GW troops will always strike last when they would otherwise strike in initiative order

minionboy
18-06-2008, 18:06
Prophet is correct. Two units with ASF don't cancel each other out, it is just that the unit with the higher I goes first. The exception to that rule is with Great Weapons, which was FAQ'd.

Malorian
18-06-2008, 18:37
I think it's pretty clear that they do cancel each other out when it says in the FAQ, "Effectively the two alwasys strikes first rules would cancel each other out."

So if great weapons are suppose to break the 'use I' statement, why wouldn't charging?

Great weapons go last, chargers go first, and both have nothing to do with I. So to me (and my group) this seems to be the way to read it.

Prophet of Quetzl
18-06-2008, 19:01
I think it's pretty clear that they do cancel each other out when it says in the FAQ, "Effectively the two alwasys strikes first rules would cancel each other out."

So if great weapons are suppose to break the 'use I' statement, why wouldn't charging?

Great weapons go last, chargers go first, and both have nothing to do with I. So to me (and my group) this seems to be the way to read it.

Because for ASF vs. ASF(charging) the rules are:
ASF (BRB p94) says if both have ASF revert to initiative


Whereas for ASF vs ASF+GW the rules are:
ASF (BRB p94) says if both have ASF revert to initiative
GW rules (BRB p56) include the strikes last rule
strikes last (BRB pp55-56) says that GW troops will always strike last when they would otherwise strike in initiative order (such as if directed by both having ASF for example)


To be honest, I think it would make more sense for the rule to be in favour of the charger in the case of ASF vs. ASF(charging) but this isn't how the rules are currently written hence:



Still (as with any rule) there is nothing wrong with using another interpretation if both players agree to it.

It's a bit like the flaming attack vs. immune to flaming attacks argument (see sig.) which is also ruled one way where some people would like it another. At the end of the day, if you (or your group) prefer to play it another way then I can't and wouldn't want to stop you. So long as you are enjoying the game then it's up to you really.

eagletsi1
19-06-2008, 00:26
So what your are saying. Is that you like the fact then when two high elf players face each other and charge each other with spear elves you prefer that it comes down to a dice roll to see who strikes first. Rather then the way the rule is written and using strategy (ie the charger strikes first) since both have ASF and according to the FAQ they would cancel each other out and use the standard rules. Thus the charger strike first when both have ASF.

Yea I think thats what GW wanted, (NOT). I know it sucks that they screwed Swordmasters and High Elves. But It needed to be done, so that some strategy could be put back into the game when two models with ASF or units fight each other.


eagletsi

minionboy
19-06-2008, 00:36
I think it's pretty clear that they do cancel each other out when it says in the FAQ, "Effectively the two alwasys strikes first rules would cancel each other out."

So if great weapons are suppose to break the 'use I' statement, why wouldn't charging?

Great weapons go last, chargers go first, and both have nothing to do with I. So to me (and my group) this seems to be the way to read it.

You're taking that entire out of context. The cancel each other out comment is specifically for Great Weapons.

The reason chargers don't go first is because the rule is not written that way.

If you read the way the rules are written, you can break down ASF into an easy flow chart:

ASF w/highest I > ASF > ASF w/Great Weapons > Chargers , etc...

Naturally, that only applies if you actually read the way all the rules are written and FAQ'd.

theunwantedbeing
19-06-2008, 00:37
Yup, that's what he is saying.

ASF vs ASF is resolved in initiutive order, just like the rules say it is.
Charging is ignored.

Swordsmasters and high elves are hardly "screwed"..they still have ASF while prettymuch everything else they face does not, hardly "screwed" at all.
Although you do get the interesting matchup of HE spearmen being one of the better unit's for taking down swordsmasters.

I know most armies would love to be screwed over by being given this crappy ASF rule that GW has just ruined.

phoenixlaw
19-06-2008, 00:43
You played it right, chargers go 1st as the two ASF's cancel each other out.

minionboy
19-06-2008, 01:01
You played it right, chargers go 1st as the two ASF's cancel each other out.

They don't. ASF does not cancel itself out, if it did, then they would say so somewhere.

The only place it gets close to this is in regards to GREAT WEAPONS in the FAQ. Also, it does not say that two units with ASF cancel each other, it says they effectively cancel each other out, in regards to GREAT WEAPONS, there is no mention whatsoever of chargers.

Jack of Blades
19-06-2008, 01:04
ASF cancels out ASF. If both have ASF, then you revert to initiative order. If one side has Great Weapons (or some other weapon that strikes last), that side strikes last since GWs always strike last when initiative is used. If not, the side with the highest initiative goes first.

You played it completely correct. The reference to initiative in the ASF rule doesn't mention stuff like charging and GWs because they thought the player would think about that themselves, I think. Initiative is only used when both sides are ''equal'' in factors, as in neither side is charging, neither side has ASF and neither side strikes last.

Basically, ASF vs. ASF tells you to revert to initiative order, and this initiative order is then affected by stuff that would normally affect who strikes first/last, had ASF not been there; charging and stuff like Great Weapons.

Ganymede
19-06-2008, 01:05
They don't. ASF does not cancel itself out, if it did, then they would say so somewhere.

The only place it gets close to this is in regards to GREAT WEAPONS in the FAQ. Also, it does not say that two units with ASF cancel each other, it says they effectively cancel each other out, in regards to GREAT WEAPONS, there is no mention whatsoever of chargers.

I read the FAQ answer up and down and fail to see the special disclaimer that states that the effective cancelling out of ASF rules only applies when great weapons are concerned. I'd appreciate it if you could quote this special exception for me.

Emeraldw
19-06-2008, 01:07
So what happens when Great Weapons charge a unit? Does that mean they still strike last (charging is ignored apparently)?

theunwantedbeing
19-06-2008, 01:08
Yes, they still strike last as you revert to initiutive...just like the ASF rule says.

Emeraldw
19-06-2008, 01:25
Yes, they still strike last as you revert to initiutive...just like the ASF rule says.

I figured that might be the interpretation. That certainly makes ASF and Great weapons a double edged sword.

eagletsi1
19-06-2008, 02:18
@the Unwanted.

You forgot the rule in BRB that says that chargers with Great Weapons ignore the STrikes last rule.

As I said before it's simple. ASF vs ASF cancel each other and resorts to normal rules.

IE ASF chargers go first no matter what weapons they are armed with. In subsequent rounds then it's based on Initiative unles one side is armed with Greatswords then that side will strike last.

kroq'gar
19-06-2008, 02:29
'ASF strike first, regardless of chargers or inititive'

That is clearly stated under ASF rules. The FAQ addressed the issed of where Grt Weapons fit into this.

ASF under other items have different ways to resolve the ASF vs ASF dispute (some are a dice roll, some are initiative etc). When two ASF clash, roll off to see which set of rules has prevelance.

That FAQ simply made great weapons on ASF models ASF-1. Meaning ASF in any situation other than against a non Great weapon armed ASF opponent.

Charging is irrelevant. Its either dice or I value, whichever is stated under the relevant models ASF rules. In the event of a clash, a dice roll decides which set of rules prevails.

ASF does NOT cancel out ASF. It says 'in effect', to add clarity to the example they had used. Otherwise, the ruling would have been ASF cancels ASF, revert to normal striking order. Instead, there is a longwinded explaination to explain that it does not simply cancel out.

Unwise
19-06-2008, 02:48
I would only ever go to a FAQ if the rulebook is unclear. In this case I don't think the rulebook is unclear in the least. It lays out pretty plainly what to do.

I don't know why GW should have complicated matters by answering that question other than to say "RTFM".

theunwantedbeing
19-06-2008, 02:51
@the Unwanted.

You forgot the rule in BRB that says that chargers with Great Weapons ignore the STrikes last rule.

As I said before it's simple. ASF vs ASF cancel each other and resorts to normal rules.

IE ASF chargers go first no matter what weapons they are armed with. In subsequent rounds then it's based on Initiative unles one side is armed with Greatswords then that side will strike last.

It doesnt quite say that though.
Strikes last is...you strike last if you would normally use initiutive to determine the striking order.

ASF vs ASF uses initiutive to determine the striking order...not who charged.
So charging doesn't come into it in any way.

ASF charger's certainly do not go first no matter what.
Otherwise ASF vs ASF would say "the 2 rules cancel, revert to the normal way of deciding who goes first".

vesp
19-06-2008, 09:02
Come on people.... use your initiative.

OldMaster
19-06-2008, 09:26
vesp, that's an epic one xD

I always play like they cancel each other out. That really helps to avoid difficult situations :\

decker_cky
19-06-2008, 09:34
The FAQ is addressing a specific situation. Otherwise, use the rules in the main rulebook (silly as they come out in a HE vs HE battle). In reality, GW needs to come out with an errata for the ASF section saying that for ASF vs ASF, the ASF units strike before other units, but as if neither had ASF with regards to one another. All the problems get solved with that. But as is, you have ASF (by initiative) > ASF (w/ GW) > Charging > Initiative > GW (Not charging) which is a little artificial.

eagletsi1
20-06-2008, 14:40
Everyone keeps pointing to the fact saying its for Great Swords only. But Is says in this example, meaning their are multiple examples. However they specifically list the Great Weapon example to make a point.

I don't think GW wants a game where the unit to go first with Two ASF units is decided by a dice roll even if one unit charged. I'm pretty sure they were trying to make the game what it has always been for 7 editions now. Make charging important again.

ASF will still kick **** vs. none ASF's but verus other ASF's charging has become important again.

Prophet of Quetzl
20-06-2008, 16:52
Everyone keeps pointing to the fact saying its for Great Swords only. But Is says in this example, meaning their are multiple examples. However they specifically list the Great Weapon example to make a point.

I don't really follow. The FAQ is an answer to a question. The question is about the specific case of GW's with ASF. If they wanted to address all possible examples they would have used a different question which asked about all possible examples.

EvC
20-06-2008, 17:20
By my reading, what the FAQ writer had meant to say was that the two ASFs are effectively cancelled out when two ASF models, one with great weapon and one without are fighting, because it is now down to initiative. But he didn't mean that ASF vs ASF means ASF is cancelled, just that the result in that particular situation gives the same effect as there being no ASF. So in general, with two ASF models fighting, it goes to initiative, and great weapons go last. Charging don't matter.

Gazak Blacktoof
20-06-2008, 17:30
I always play like they cancel each other out. That really helps to avoid difficult situations :\


Exactly, anything else is just too complex. Just ignore ASF and continue as you would normally.

Prophet of Quetzl
20-06-2008, 17:42
Exactly, anything else is just too complex. Just ignore ASF and continue as you would normally.

Using the same logic as "the FAQ means ASF vs ASF always cancel each other out", I read the above quote as:


Exactly, anything else is just too complex. In all cases of ASF vs anything - just ignore ASF and continue as you would normally.

;)

Gazak Blacktoof
20-06-2008, 22:47
Good for you.

sulla
21-06-2008, 00:30
vesp, that's an epic one xD

I always play like they cancel each other out. That really helps to avoid difficult situations :\

It also certainly depowers dark elf assassins vs high elfs.

They would pop out, yell "surprise!" and be cut down by the HE who charged with ASF cancelling out the ASF of the assassin.170+ pts down the drain.

I hope this is just a brain explosion by Allessio and will be rectified later. The rules already told how to fight ASF vs ASF. Initiative. The only thing that needed to be clarified was whether great weapons fought at the users initiative or not...

theunwantedbeing
21-06-2008, 00:53
Exactly, anything else is just too complex. Just ignore ASF and continue as you would normally.

Or just follow the rules as they currently are and we get no confusions as to how things work. And dark elf assasins arent made to be more rubbish than they currently are.

Gazak Blacktoof
21-06-2008, 13:17
Well they wont be as good against non-great weapon wielding charging opponenets with always strikes first, but apart from that they should do fine.

We clearly disagree on "the rules as they currently are", which is a pitty really as I'm just starting a dark elf army. Prior to the FAQ I would have agreed with your assessment.

MonkeyLord
21-06-2008, 16:24
My god. Well, it's fairly obvious that GW needs to clearly state, without ANY ambiguity, how this works. As it stands now, it almost requires a BA in English to decipher what is being said. ;)

Now, let’s cut to the chase, and parse through the rules:

1.) When considering any combat between ASF vs. ASF, as per the BRB, use initiative order. Clearly stated, clear as day. In this case, totally unambiguous. Charging in and of itself doesn't matter when ASF comes into play (see *note below). If you just play that ASF cancels each other out in all cases, you're not playing by the rules. Which is fine in a friendly game, if both players agree before hand that this is how they want to play the game. But if you go to GW sponsored tournament, be prepared to play differently.

2.) The FAQ question specifically addresses a situation where a unit with a great weapon would normally strike last, but has ASF, is facing another unit that also has ASF, but no great weapons. This is a special case and needs to be resolved.

Essentially:
ASF vs. ASF: Always use initiative order.
ASF vs. ASF + SL: ASF goes first
ASF vs. All Else: ASF goes first
ASF + SL vs. All Else: ASF+SL goes first.

*Note: Now, remember when a unit equipped with a great weapon charges, they do not SL. So, on that round, you have an ASF vs. ASF situation. In subsequent rounds, however, Great Weapons are affected by the Strike Last rule, so now you have ASF vs. ASF+SL. See? It’s not really so hard.

It takes a little scrutiny to see the intent of the rules, but after it clicks, it isn’t nearly as ambiguous as one might be led to think. The "Effectively the two Always Strike First rules would cancel each other out" was an unnecessary statement that muddied the waters for some folks, even though it's stated in the same breath as "In this case", which specifically addresses ASF vs. ASF+SL. But if this question came up on a reading comprehension exam, you'd need to keep the "cancels each other out" clause within the context of this specific question, not all ASF vs. ASF situations.

Whew. That’s a lot of typing for what’s essentially a “simple” rule. :p

Akuma
21-06-2008, 16:37
KoS Sirens Prince on Stardragon - KoS goes first ? - Yeah I like you Monkey Lord keep up the good work ;)

theunwantedbeing
21-06-2008, 16:46
When a great weapon charges it doesnt go last as it isnt using initiutive to determine who goes first.
However, when both sides have ASF initiutive is used, so the great weapon goes last.

Unfortunate if you have a great weapon of course but you can always switch to a hand weapon instead if you have a higher initiutive.

MonkeyLord
21-06-2008, 23:22
KoS Sirens Prince on Stardragon - KoS goes first ? - Yeah I like you Monkey Lord keep up the good work ;)

Hey, I calls it likes I sees it. The rules are the rules, so if that KoS has ASF, that Prince is in some serious poodoo. :p

There should be some peril in fighting Greater Daemons of Ass-whoopiness, even if you're a high and mighty High Elf, after all. ;) The same would happen to a Death Hag with the ASF dagger on a Manticore, too. ASF isn't a crutch that will save you from *everything* on the battlefield. Unless of course you have ASF and an I of 10, then you're fairly golden. :D