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themandudeperson
19-06-2008, 00:40
I've got a pair's tourney coming up with my brother and he's asking for my help. Each side is two 1500 pt armies paired, which each side allowed a lord. I intend to play Lizardmen and to use my saurus warriors to provide our side a solid center as well as terradons and scouting skinks for warmachine hunting and kroxigor for counter charges and heavy calvary. I came up with 3 lists I think will complement that approach best and I want to see what WarSeer thinks about them:

Option 1:
Lord/Heroes:
Prince with Great Weapon, Heavy Armor Shield, Bow of the Seafarer and Helm of Fortune-256
Noble Battle Standard Bearer on Barded Elven Steed, with Dragon Armor, Shield, Lance and Battle Banner-218
Core:
2x10 Archers-220
Special:
5 dragon prince with full command-200
9 Phoenix Guard with full command-165
6 Sword Masters with full command-120
6 Sword Masters with full command-120
Rare:
2 Repeating Bolt Throwers-200
Note: Prince goes in Phoenix Guard, Noble in Dragon Princes.

Option 2:
Lord/Hero:
Prince with Great Weapon, Bow of the Seafarer, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armor and Sacred Incense-268
Core:
2x10 Archers-220
Special:
5 dragon prince with full command and war banner-220
14 Phoenix Guard with musician and standard-228
10 Sword Masters with full command-180
10 Sword Masters with full command-180
Rare:
2 Repeating Bolt Throwers-200
Note: Prince goes in Phoenix Guard

Option 3:
Lord/Hero:
Teclis-475
Core:
10 Archers-110
14 Sea Guard with shields, musician and standard-197
Special:
5 dragon prince with full command-200
7 White Lions with musician and banner of sorcery-173
8 Sword Masters with musician and champion-138
Rare:
2 Repeating Bolt Throwers-200
Note: Teclis goes in Sea Guard

themandudeperson
19-06-2008, 20:15
Wow, this list is so great it draws no negative attention from the public at large?
::sarcasm::
Anyway.. anyone out there have any advice to weigh in?

highelfmage
19-06-2008, 21:00
dont use a prince unless you want to use a dragon. a noble can do everything a prince can. hero in high elves are more for support boosting a up a unit in certain ways. you only need 1 core.
what phase scares you the most?can your army stop magic?
the army with teclis looks good but drop sea guards and get spearman.

if i was your friend

noble bsb
armor of caladour
5+ward item or amulet of protection
GW
163 or 168

caradryan
175

20 spearman
s/m
195

14 swordmaster (caradryan joins)
s/c/m
amulet of light
255
5 dp s/m
ellyrion banner
195

14 white lions (bsb join for an unbreakable unit)
s/c/m
lion standard, gem of courage
275

2 bolts
200

total 1458 or 1463 and u can add magic resistance or war banner on units you like or u can drop a bolt and a get a unit dp with no command.

themandudeperson
19-06-2008, 21:42
Oh wow.. I went all this time and I JUST realized that certain high elf champions can equip magical items! Anyway, I've been trying to restrict the Prince to a ranged support role with the bolt thrower bow. My brother seems to be in love with this thing, but due to being 60 pts I need a lord for it. Taking your advice into account though, I may drop the prince from list 1 and use the points for additional swordmasters as well as dropping the phoenix guard in favor of white lions.
In the Teclis list, I put the sea guard in because I couldn't fit the phoenix guard in and he's going to need 24" or closer for most spells anyway, so why not plunk him into a unit of capable missile troops with OK'ish armor saves? Plus, it fills a core choice, which the event organizer said each list has to have 2 of.
Also, would dropping the banner from the dragon princes be good or bad? I see them played as either 1 of 2 ways: 1- charge, hit hard, flee, rally, repeat or 2- charge, hit hard, break enemy unit and pursue through. Pretty much what I DON'T want is for them to get stuck in combat, then flanked and killed to the man.
My Lizardmen play a pretty in your face approach with a JSoD, a flying skink chief, terradons and scouting skinks putting the opposition on the defensive early while my Saurus Warriors march up trying to draw charges from hammer units and my support units smash into exposed flanks. At this point level, most of my support units will have to be eliminated to meet the point value, so I'm trying to include a large number of counter charge units in my brother's army to take up the slack. As far as magic goes, if my brother takes Teclis, I plan to bring 4 DD, 2 dispel scrolls and the diadem of power to afford me 6 DD from second turn on.

Spyro35
20-06-2008, 01:58
In my personal opinion, I feel like you're trying to use your LM to do most of the heavy duty fighting. If that is true, this is what I would do.

Noble on Eagle 193 pts
Reaver Bow
Lance
Heavy Armor
Enchanted Shield

Mage level 2 175 pts
Ring of Fury / Staff of Dispel
The staff is only for if you suspect spellspamming VC summoning, which I think is very likely to happen

Mage level 2 180 pts
Jewel of the Dusk
Silver Wand
Dispel Scroll

10 Archers 110 pts

10 Phoenix Guards 218 pts
Musician, Standard Bearer
Banner of Sorcery
One of the mage goes here

10 Swordmasters 193 pts
Musician, Standard Bearer
Lion Standard
One of the mage goes here

5 Dragon Princes 230 pts
Full Command
Amulet of Light
Banner of Ellyrion
The banner is not mandatory, but its a good idea to have

2 Bolt Throwers 200 pts
Yes, maximize these bad boys


Total: 1499 pts

I think this list is fairly obvious what its supposed to do. Blast em good with magic and control their magic phase. Follow through with ranged compliments of the 2 RBTs and 10 archers. I would use the PG to just close up the gaps the LM blocks will create. They're very sturdy unit. The last thing you really need is to get hit in the rear when you're just about to win, when that happens, just throw the PG inbetween the charger and all should be well. The two flankers are the Swordmasters and Dragon Princes. Just remember to get your mages out before you enter HtH. Lastly, the Noble is supposed to help march block, shoot from behind and flank rears. I only put this guy in because you said your brother likes it? Hopefully, this list will free up some of your magic defenses so you can throw more points into heavy duty fighting troops.

Thats just my two cents, feel free to completely shoot it down.

themandudeperson
20-06-2008, 02:31
That helps, but we have to have two core choices for each list (4 core between the two lists). Looking at that list though, I'd probably drop a mage to make it work..
I was talking about the Bow of the Seafarer, when I said "My brother seems to be in love with this thing". It's actually a good choice of magic weapon though, as I know there will be a knight-heavy Empire build teamed up with Brets as well as OK teamed up with VC. So, a BS 6, strength 6 d3 wounds weapon is just the ticket for flanking shots on heavy calvary and ogres.
Then again, there's already 2 RBTs on the table and with Teclis he could use the hunter's spear spell or up the effectiveness of the 2 RBTs with curse of arrow attraction.

highelfmage
20-06-2008, 03:19
if knight scare u take teclis with metal and the last spell. if u want to use prince use him on a eagle

Spyro35
20-06-2008, 04:03
You're forgetting Courage of Aenarion. Units within 12" radius become stubborn.

themandudeperson
20-06-2008, 19:26
You're forgetting Courage of Aenarion. Units within 12" radius become stubborn.

Holy damn! My brother never used this spell against me when we've played.. Talk about a blunder. I think, if we use Teclis, the High Lore will be the lore of choice due to that and its other varying offensive and support spells. Not to mention the +1 to dispel will come in handy. Am I wrong, or is it only applicable if there's a caster using the High Lore?
I had talked to him about the usefulness of the lores of fire (for offense), metal (for support and armor negation) and beasts (for flexibility). I haven't really had a chance to thoroughly check out the high lore as I was mostly drooling over the prospects of my JSoD with Bear's Anger charging into just about anything with low static CR.

Spyro35
21-06-2008, 01:13
The +1 to dispel applies as long as there is one or more High Elf Mage/Archmage in the army. However, even if you have 2 mages/archmages, you still only get +1.

Thus why in my list, I suggested the Staff of Sorcery, giving you a total of +2 to dispel. So the lowest score you'll ever get is a 3, which is quite deadly imo.

WhiteKnight
21-06-2008, 04:11
With Teclis, you will have solid magic offense and defense. Have him and have solid blocks of spearmen. I recommend also adding a block of phoenix guard at least 15 men strong. Hopefully you can knock out most armies with solid magic phases.

themandudeperson
21-06-2008, 17:14
Well, the hope is that if my brother fields Teclis, I'll be able to field more points in Lizardmen brutality than magic defense. I prefer pro-active elimination of my opponent's magic as opposed to passive magic defense anyway. Besides, which earns it's points better? a scroll caddy hiding in the back field all day or a flying skink carving out mages from your opponent's army?

Condottiere
22-06-2008, 01:15
Tell your brother to stick Teclis in the Phoenix Guard next to Caradryan. He should than have a chance of surviving any nefarious assassination plots.;)

themandudeperson
22-06-2008, 01:41
Tell your brother to stick Teclis in the Phoenix Guard next to Caradryan. He should than have a chance of surviving any nefarious assassination plots.;)

That's a good idea.. what should I cut out of the list to fit in Caradryan, though?

W A L 5 H Y
22-06-2008, 14:11
and how about giving the pheonix guard a banner of sorcery? this means teclis is generating D3 power dice to the pool and the banner is adding D3 power dice to your pool thats scary! especially when all your Power dice are used with him lol

JonnyTHM
22-06-2008, 14:33
Quick reminder:

Teclis can't take the high lore.

themandudeperson
22-06-2008, 19:47
Quick reminder:

Teclis can't take the high lore.

Eh? How in the hell can he be THAT badassed as a High Elf mage but not understand his own people's magic!? Please tell me that's a FUBAR somewhere along the way....

Marwynn
22-06-2008, 22:57
Quick reminder:

Teclis can't take the high lore.

"Teclis is a Level 4 Wizard. He may choose either High Magic or any of the eight lores descried in the Warhammer rulebook."

p. 90, High Elf Army Book.

themandudeperson
23-06-2008, 03:10
I'm guessing JonnyTHM missed something with that one..

Spyro35
23-06-2008, 04:05
You guys are placing everything in one unit. That is a major mistake in my opinion. You better hope there aren't any gun-lines that'll just blast that unit to hell. But for tournament purposes if you want to just win and not give a damn about fun-ness; just go with a teclis build. Or use the GT UK winner list.

Condottiere
23-06-2008, 04:22
You guys are placing everything in one unit. That is a major mistake in my opinion. You better hope there aren't any gun-lines that'll just blast that unit to hell. But for tournament purposes if you want to just win and not give a damn about fun-ness; just go with a teclis build. Or use the GT UK winner list.That's the fun part about the Phoenix Guard, it's the one unit HE players have that's guaranteed to have the highest survival rate.;)

Spyro35
24-06-2008, 02:59
You're surviving with 50% chance in an expensive unit. Lets assume you have 15 PGs, thats 225 plus Teclis... thats like what, another 300 pts? I dont have the HE book with me atm so I can't check it. But basically this unit is going to cost you like an HE prince on star dragon fully tooled up. Except, very easy to kill since templates cover a huge area.

themandudeperson
24-06-2008, 04:19
Teclis = 475
That unit would be 700 pts total.. If that's not waving a big "hey, shoot me" banner over their heads, I don't know what is..

WhiteKnight
24-06-2008, 04:54
What you can do to solve that problem is to use The Howler wind. Gunlines will miss often with that spell in play.

Marwynn
24-06-2008, 05:02
You're surviving with 50% chance in an expensive unit. Lets assume you have 15 PGs, thats 225 plus Teclis... thats like what, another 300 pts? I dont have the HE book with me atm so I can't check it. But basically this unit is going to cost you like an HE prince on star dragon fully tooled up. Except, very easy to kill since templates cover a huge area.

And this changes what exactly? They're still T3. Whether you use spearblocks, White Lion and SM MSUs or even the Phoenix Guard they will die.

The Phoenix Guard, however, live through some of the worst things out there. And 15 is not that much bigger from 10 as far as templates go. It's not a "large" block by any means.

And it's odd that you'd mention a Star Dragon Prince. One well placed cannon shot can end that flying basket of eggs.

In short, 15 points a model is not an "expensive" unit for the High Elves.


EDIT:


What you can do to solve that problem is to use The Howler wind. Gunlines will miss often with that spell in play.

I think you mean the Rain Lord. If you can keep the Howler Wind up you won't have much to worry from the shooters.

Condottiere
24-06-2008, 08:04
In short, 15 points a model is not an "expensive" unit for the High Elves.
As with all things High Elven, expensive is a relative term.;)

Spyro35
24-06-2008, 14:22
And this changes what exactly? They're still T3. Whether you use spearblocks, White Lion and SM MSUs or even the Phoenix Guard they will die.

The Phoenix Guard, however, live through some of the worst things out there. And 15 is not that much bigger from 10 as far as templates go. It's not a "large" block by any means.

And it's odd that you'd mention a Star Dragon Prince. One well placed cannon shot can end that flying basket of eggs.

In short, 15 points a model is not an "expensive" unit for the High Elves.


EDIT:



I think you mean the Rain Lord. If you can keep the Howler Wind up you won't have much to worry from the shooters.


A star dragon cannot be killed by 1 cannon ball, even if they roll max on their damage roll. At least on a star dragon, you have the mobility a block infantry will never have.

W A L 5 H Y
24-06-2008, 14:41
If its a doubles match then i would use the immence magic power of high elves with the raw toughness of the Lizardmen Although high elves can be great at all parts of the game you just need to pick one and focuss on it. and the bolt thrower bow isnt all that. i mean if your taking the lord just for that wats the point. lords are supposed to be combat winners.

Marwynn
24-06-2008, 14:48
A star dragon cannot be killed by 1 cannon ball, even if they roll max on their damage roll. At least on a star dragon, you have the mobility a block infantry will never have.

Yeah, I meant the Prince. The Star Dragon gets a monster reaction roll, so he could very well just sit still.

And don't compare infantry blocks to a monstrous creature. It's hard enough to compare cavalry with infantry, this is a huge leap in differences in purposes and capabilities.

Spyro35
24-06-2008, 14:51
I drew parallel between the suggested block of PGs with a Prince on Star Dragon due to the comparison with respect to points. I was showing the "eggs in one basket" problem with this.

But do whatever you want, good luck in the tournament

themandudeperson
24-06-2008, 16:14
If its a doubles match then i would use the immence magic power of high elves with the raw toughness of the Lizardmen Although high elves can be great at all parts of the game you just need to pick one and focuss on it. and the bolt thrower bow isnt all that. i mean if your taking the lord just for that wats the point. lords are supposed to be combat winners.

Well, outside of 2 units of 10 scouting skinks I don't have much for shooting and no ranged attack that work well against heavily armored units. Most of my army's points are tied up in high mobility units (Terradons, flying Skink Chief and Jaguar Oldblood) while the rest are two solid blocks of Saurus Warriors and a unit of Kroxigor.
Pretty much, my Kroxigor are going to either square off with any large threat that needs strength 7 or shadow my Saurus Warriors to counter charge. Also, the Swordmasters and White Lions will be limited to a similar role meant to maim any CC threats that come close to Teclis's unit who'll be sitting behind them and throwing arrows and spells out wherever possible. My high mobility threats, along with the Dragon Princes are going to be aimed at disrupting any efforts to flank this formation and attempting to eliminate any mages or warmachines. Once the magic/shooting becomes one sided and/o the flanks are secure, they'll converge on CC units in joint charges (or in the cases of skinks, just follow and dart).
That's the plan anyways..and as we all know "no battleplan survives contact with the enemy". So, I do have a lot of faith being put into our fast units being able to rapidly adapt to conditions to both plug vulnerabilities and exploit advantages.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
26-06-2008, 05:58
You're forgetting Courage of Aenarion. Units within 12" radius become stubborn.

I thought that you had to pick a unit to be stubborn? Anyways what about chariots? In tourneys they might get blown to bits but they are fun:) What about a dragon of some kind? Terror is fun! Good luck!

_Lucian_
26-06-2008, 09:14
No its all units within 12".

Windings of a snake
06-07-2008, 07:10
Try the following

Prince on Star dragon, 2+ armour at 25 points. Reroll failed armour and 4+ Ward save at 55 points. Make these attacks magic attacks by choice of item.

Add a halberd.


Two caddy wizards

two units of 10 Archers

Lion chariot

1 flying chicken

18 immun to psychology full command white lions

18 immun to fear swordmasters

6 Dragon princes bolstering the no terrain penalty banner.

This should give you a good start to build around.