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Akuma
21-06-2008, 14:07
Ok - after great succes with my DL army I want to gether my fellow portenters for another thought experiment.

Arch Lector of Sigmar
General; Prayers of Sigmar; Heavy Armour; Shield
Van Horstman's Speculum
Sword of Fate
War Altar

Typical Walter.

Battle Wizard
Magic Level 2
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll

Caddy

Battle Wizard
Magic Level 2
Rod of Power

Gives me option to swith offence and defense in magic dep easy.

Battle Wizard
Magic Level 2
The Orb of Thunder

Very nasty aginst flying circusses and stuff

11 Crossbowmen
11 Crossbowmen

Shooters - with 30" range thay can start shooting from turn one.

10x Flagellant Warbands
Prophet of Doom

( for the infamus Prophet of doom conga line trick )

4x Great Cannon
2x Steam Tank

( dont say you didnt see it comeing )

Casting Pool: 8
Dispel Pool: 7
Models in Army: 55
Total Army Cost: 2000


Ok we all know what it is - My point - how to get perfect chees with empire in 2K format - I would drop 5 flags but what else can I get for 50 pts ? ( one archer detachment for opponent annoyance and 2x musicans for both units of crossbows ? )

I want you to say how you will destroy and pawn me - but also - and that is for what you get the cookie - say how I could improve it.

Cheers

( remember - this is thought experiment - i dont play like that in real life - ever ).

wizuriel
21-06-2008, 14:32
earthshaker




(steam tanks considered warmachines)

Akuma
21-06-2008, 15:26
???

If I remember correctly EarthShaker produces 2d6 sphere ( in addition to damage ) in whitch warmachines must roll 4+ to shoot ... Or it destroys warmachines there ? - Seriously I dont play aginst CD so plase educate me how eartshaker would ba an anwser aginst this empire army :) ?

wizuriel
21-06-2008, 18:31
yeah it does the 2d6 sphere. no models in it can shoot and move at half rate. warmachines do nothing on a 1-3.

so 2 of those and 8 bolt throwers should have fun.

it would with a little luck stop or seriously slow down your army. a great taurus lord with the hammer of death (1 use only all models in b2b take d3 wounds no armour save) could hopefully get through and do some damage

W0lf
22-06-2008, 07:46
Arch Lector of Sigmar
General; Prayers of Sigmar; Heavy Armour; Shield
Van Horstman's Speculum
Sword of Fate
War Altar

Armour of meteric Iron, VHS, Great weapon is a much better combo imo.

Also this army is FAR from unbeatable. My standard dwarf build would wreck it. Oh and id drop a great cannon and make it 20 flagellants.

4 do little that 3 dont.

Akuma
22-06-2008, 10:49
Ok 1 Disclaimer - this is not writen with intention to flame :)

Second - If someone posts "I would win with my usual army" plase - provide link to suitable roster or the roster itself if you didnt posted it earlier.

Second - Aginst all other machine armys - Cannons are best warmachine killers - hit = 2+ to wound and 3+ to destroy machines - So it depends on who starts - If I start with 5 cannons ( Im counting 2 from steams as a one becasue thay have d3 W ) I can easly destroy 2 earth shakers - also 8 bolts - 4 will hit ( -1 for range +1 for LT ) 2 will wound steam tank 4 wounds on avarge - far from destroyed - in the next turn - Cannons target bolts - 3 or 4 of them death - and so on.

As for Walter - well my combination is far better as the sword of fate makes it impossible to lose aginst any lord in CC - I have your number of attack - you have only one - I hit you on 3+ most of the times and wound on 2+ and no as and d3 wounds each wound ... On top of that - prayers - will you stop reroll to hit and to wound ?


Also this army is FAR from unbeatable.

Another desclimer - I'm not saying it is :) Post your Dwarf army for tournaments so we can talk - I have no doubt I will see the shortcomings of this empire and improve them by this means.

greendan
22-06-2008, 14:55
I'm interested in what the "prophet of doom conga line" is???
Always looking for some new tricks.
I think the list may struggle against Vampires with all their raising of zombies.
Plus a big unit or two of wraiths could ruin your day. Their ethereal combined with terror, skirmishing and fast movement has been the bane of my empire many a time.
I've never run a shooting army so if it works good job.
I always liked the idea of two steam tanks though. People cry cheese but it'd look nice on the table.
:chrome:

Lordsaradain
22-06-2008, 15:10
Yeah, what is the "prophet of doom conga line"? Never heard of it...

That build on the arch lector is pretty nasty, pure character killer. :D

A speedy or skirmishing army might cause problems for this list though. Think wood elves.

Uriain
22-06-2008, 15:39
Well besides being a completly run of the mill empire gunline, and yet another person useing a War Alt. I would say this list would do ok. Nurgle Daemon lists will steam roll you. with heralds (I think it is) they get regen plus their ward save, you will not be killing to many of those boys a turn. RAF Bret lists will be super hard for you to fight because they will save dice for your thunder orb every turn. and Hide behind terrain till they need to come out.(I fought a similar list as yours with a RAF list I made up)

Thorek Lists will do you in fairly quickly, because they will just bring miners in and roll up your artillery, same with Tombkings, Tomb Scorpions will devour your artillery line.

Even Teclis lists would have a fairly easy time, because all he needs is doubles, and they can produce stupids amounts of PD.

But, these are just my opinions. I think empire players who make lists like the one you have, simply cant play any other way, so they choose the "auto win" function of the empire book.

Akuma
22-06-2008, 15:40
Conga line is unit of 5 Flegs with chempion you put them in line one behind another and the champion in front the rules from 81 page say that if something charges it - thay can only kill thayr champion :D - I can easly catch big regiments like blood knights or what not on it.

As for zombies - 10 DD due to Rod of Power

As for wraiths - yeah thay are problematic - if my opponent takes 20 then it will hurt me plenty :D ( but it will hurt him plenty if he cames across thing like DL or WE becasue thay have good number of magic attacks and thous - not many VC players go that way in tournament setting ) - but valid point - Wratis are very dangerous and would have to be deat with via magic missles ( I problably would go all lore of light on mages )

Akuma
22-06-2008, 15:45
@ Urianin we dont use Special Chars where I play so no Thorek or Teclis :)

As for nurgle deamons - Lore of light - 6S and burning attacks - mean that I have 2+ to wound and thay only roll thayr 5+ word save

RAF would ba a chalange - but you dont take one thing under concideration - RAF have low number of DD - as thay tend to get to enemy ASAP - thay will need to conserve them for orb of thunder - and that laves me to spam magic missile to death on them :)

As for Tomb kings - I have one question - What if I Drive my stank on top of Scorpian dig out spot ? if he rolls hit does it means that he must fight with the stank ? ( seriously i dont know and thous I ask :) )

TK421
22-06-2008, 18:02
If a Scorpion shows up under an enemy unit it ends up in combat, counting as a charge.

redbaron998
22-06-2008, 18:04
Walter and 2x Stanks equal 0 for sportmenship score....

Akuma
22-06-2008, 21:30
"If a Scorpion shows up under an enemy unit it ends up in combat, counting as a charge"

So as TK are kind of slow army I can easly move my cannon and drive steam tank in - thank you for clarification :)

"Walter and 2x Stanks equal 0 for sportmenship score..."

We dont have SC here :)

As a side note - could anyone - pretty please direct me ( via link if possible ) to most typical RAF army ?

blackjack
22-06-2008, 21:44
Well this is my new list, it is built to beat gun lines so I think it should do ok against yours...

Enough magic to mostly cancel yours out and turn 2 charge. If I get first move I would feel very confidant to beat you with it.

I am not familiar with the imperial army book but how do you get 7 dispel dice? I only count 5.

10 Horrors w Icon of Sorc
10 Horrors w Icon of Sorc
10 Horrors w Icon of Sorc

5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds

4 Fiends of Slanesh
4 Fiends of Slanesh

Herald of Tz
Master of Sorc
Winged Horror

Herald of Tz
Master of Sorc
Winged Horror

The Masque

Akuma
22-06-2008, 22:49
1 We dont use Special Characters so no masq :)

Second - If Im right you have only 2 initial + 2 from herald + 3 from horrors diss dice - I'm right or wrong ? ( So it tops at 7 ) And NO Diss Scrolls.

I Have 7 Dice because My Walter generates 2 :)

As for Starting and playing

I take all magic from the lore of light. ( So I will have 5+ spell that does d6 S6 hits on you - on top of that I can cast it from Altar 1 time per turn )

Obviously I wont Ever target Dogs with any magic - as thay have great magic RES.

What I would do is to concentrate on fiends in 1 turn - then Drive my Stanks into your dogs - Altar that is unbrakable would hit 3 unit and Flagalants in conga would take care of the fourth When stanks would deal with the dogs thay would divert to killing the other entangled units

The mages would target horrors after dealing with fiends - one unit at time to pop it to less then 5 to remove one DD form your pool - I honestly dont think what you could do to win aginst my army :)

Akuma
22-06-2008, 23:23
Oh and one more thing - I forgot :/

48" of the table

Dogs move 16" ? So 32" in 2 phases ? + 12" from your dep = 44" - it leaves me to deploy in 4" to avoid second turn charge ;)

Halelel
22-06-2008, 23:41
Looks like a solid Empire cheese list, nothing wrong with that.

Only suggestion would be dropping the cannons to 3, 4 seems a bit too much and a waste of points IMO.

More flagellants would serve you better as W0lf has stated.

Xaskus
23-06-2008, 00:14
I want you to say how you will destroy and pawn me .

I really don't get posts like this. The OP always posts his uber army and says stuff like in the quote, then shoots down and makes excuses about any army anyone else posts. I just don't get it.

jigplums
23-06-2008, 23:54
you guys don't use special characters, thats a bit like me saying we dont use steam tanks and expecting you not to take it into account when posting up my lists. Special characters are a part of the game.

minionboy
24-06-2008, 00:40
4 Cannons is really unimpressive and will make very little difference to armies which have mass numbers of troops. Skaven (non SAD), Goblins, Tomb Kings, VC and WE would likely wreck you horribly. I'd suggest dropping 2 of the cannons in favor of mortars most of all, but there are many more changes to make this army effective in a tournament setting.

Unless you fire (and hit) with 2 or more cannons at a single unit, you're not likely to cause any panic. If you don't get the first turn then you can expect your small units of crossbowmen to get in combat after only firing one volley against any fast built army, which would soon be followed by crushing your level 2 mages, then sweeping into your one-trick-pony for a commander. He may be good if you're expecting the enemy to specifically send only one of their characters on a mission to kill yours, other than that, he's mostly ineffective.

Overall, this seems like it tried too hard to be cheese and just ended up being mediocre at best.

RavenBloodwind
24-06-2008, 01:22
Hmm...

To your 'how to make it better' issue:
The character builds seem suited to their tasks, but where will you put the wizards to protect them from incoming misery? You only have 2 units they can join, both of which are tiny, unarmored missile units.

For troops, well, let's face it. You don't have any. That's part of the build so it's accepted as part of the design but will work against you.

For artillery (cannons not stanks) I'd think about dropping 2 for improved flexibility. In their places a unit of 5 outriders with or without a champ upgrade will augment your firepower very handily for only a few more points. A mortar in place of the other cannon will allow you to hit the low T ranked troops and skirmish troops with much more effect. 2 cannon and 2 stanks should provide adequate high S punch in the shooting.


The current build will likely struggle against a skirmishing army with moderate magic defense including both BoC and wood elves. Not playing BoC I can't really give any examples but for WE, my typical build would only be in danger from your mages, walter and stanks. The cannons can only kill one model in a skirmish unit or single-ranked gladeguard unit per turn (assuming they all hit). The difficulty you'll have inflicting damage before your x-bows are taken down means you'll rely on cannon and stanks to do the bulk of your offense. The stanks can be dodged to a fair degree through hiding in forests (we're cowards like that) and avoiding your LOS while the cannons can just kill one guy a turn 'til their hearts content.

If you can protect your mages you have a reasonable chance against many opponents. I simply don't see how you propose to accomplish that.

I really wouldn't enjoy playing against the list much, but aside from being unable to harm your stanks (which I do have some experience in dodging) the rest of the list isn't overly scary. If you want to 'win' tournaments go for it. If you want to win friends and influence people, well you'd just leave this list on the drawing board.

Rodman49
24-06-2008, 09:24
Ugh, cannons are trash, all these net built lists spam cannons but they are not very reliable at all. For some reason people always overrate cannons . . .

They misfire 1/6th of the time.
They fail to hit about 1/3rd the time on a decent guess.
They fail to wound 1/6th of the time.
Ward saves may save wounds 1/3rd of the time.

Just look at that people. I've played Empire for years and the cannon is terrible for actually killing stuff; its primary strength is getting to dictate your enemies deployment.

Arbiter7
24-06-2008, 14:17
Conga line is unit of 5 Flegs with chempion you put them in line one behind another and the champion in front the rules from 81 page say that if something charges it - thay can only kill thayr champion - I can easly catch big regiments like blood knights or what not on it.


Erm there is no such rule on page 81, sorry. If something catches them (like blood knights) they are simply toast, and most probably overrun.

The Red Scourge
24-06-2008, 14:37
[I]Erm there is no such rule on page 81, sorry. If something catches them (like blood knights) they are simply toast, and most probably overrun.

The idea is to minimize losses by only having one model in base attack with the enemy. In that way a maximum of three models (on 20mm bases) will be able to attack, thus fewer attacks will kill the flagellants, who can then keep the enemy occupied till help arrives for a flank (or is it stank) charge. This works because of the crazed flaggellants, who won't break from combat.

This behaviour is of course frowned upon by people with more than one digit to their age, as it is a blatant loophole in the rules. The best way of dealing with these people is to laugh, pick up your models and wish them a very happy life.

Arbiter7
24-06-2008, 14:50
oh so its THAT retarded.

Thanks for the info.


Still, 5 or 10 flagellants in line have huge flanks. Should be able to flank charge and chop them to bitz.

Especially when this list has nothing else to counter a charge.


As someone said in my gaming club, this is a fine list if you're playing in an "Omaha Beach" terrain.


What if there were no hills? Doh.

Vandur Last
24-06-2008, 18:09
Well besides being a completly run of the mill empire gunline, and yet another person useing a War Alt. I would say this list would do ok. Nurgle Daemon lists will steam roll you. with heralds (I think it is) they get regen plus their ward save, you will not be killing to many of those boys a turn. RAF Bret lists will be super hard for you to fight because they will save dice for your thunder orb every turn. and Hide behind terrain till they need to come out.(I fought a similar list as yours with a RAF list I made up)

Thorek Lists will do you in fairly quickly, because they will just bring miners in and roll up your artillery, same with Tombkings, Tomb Scorpions will devour your artillery line.

Even Teclis lists would have a fairly easy time, because all he needs is doubles, and they can produce stupids amounts of PD.

But, these are just my opinions. I think empire players who make lists like the one you have, simply cant play any other way, so they choose the "auto win" function of the empire book.


So which is it? Easy to kill or cheesy "auto-win" ?

My only problem with this kind of list is the Steamtanks. I have the model from years ago but dont like to use it.
Can a gunline army work without steamtanks?

_Lucian_
24-06-2008, 18:44
I have to agree with the comments about the 'no special characters allowed', seems rather arbritary and could simply be countered with. "where i play we use a 'no cheesy list' rule".

Also this list is nothing to spectacular or ground breaking, ive seen it before (or similar) and as far as i am aware it hasnt won any GT's (Uk atleast).

*Insert repeat comments about no place for mages to stand, poor tactical flexibility of cannons, limited if little ability to deal with horde and W/E armies*

minionboy
24-06-2008, 19:10
I took it upon myself to come up with a devastatingly scary army to face, with a heavy focus on artillery and ranged attacks. It does little good to tell you what is bad without helping you make something good, so here it goes:

1 Arch Lector: Van Horstmann's Speculum, Shield of the Gorgon, Sword of Power, Heavy Armor: 226

1 Mage: 2 Dispel Scrolls: 115
1 Engineer: Light Armor, Pigeon Bombs: 92
1 Engineer: Light Armor, Pigeon Bombs: 92

25 Swordsmen: Full Command: 175
- 5 Halberdiers: 25
25 Swordsmen: Full Command: 175
- 5 Halberdiers: 25
10 Handgunners: Marksman with Hochland: 105
10 Handgunners: Marksman with Hochland: 105
10 Handgunners: Marksman with Hochland: 105

1 Mortar: 75
1 Mortar: 75
1 Cannon: 100
1 Cannon: 100

1 Steam Tank: 300
1 Helblaster: 110

Total: 2000

First with characters: Arch Lectors still, only he is better equipped to fight any character he fights, not just one you have to decide before the game. He generates 2 DD himself, so for just magic defense, we added another level 1 mage with 2 dispel scrolls, which can be swapped for a Battle Priest if you like, but I like having the scrolls personally. Lastly, 2 Engineers with Pigeon Bombs, partially for giggles, but they actually have a knack for blasting large holes in unsuspecting enemy units.

Core: Two big blocks of infantry, good for defensive purposes, each with a small detachment of Halberdiers for negating flanks. Three units of Handgunners, each with a Hochland, useful for picking off annoying enemy casters, even if you only do 1 wound, it will make them fear getting a miscast and reduce the effectiveness of their casting.

Special: 2 Mortars for blasting infantry, 2 cannons for wrecking tougher units.

Rare: Two steam tanks wont do much more than one will do, so we cut out one of them in favor of a helblaster. Helblasters are great for area negation, put this on your flank and it will make people think twice about advancing fast cavalry up your side.

I hope this helps you!