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Azmazi
21-06-2008, 16:18
Okay now this one was inking me earlier and I still am not sure how to situate it. So here goes, after building a new list to mess around with on VC, I noticed a combo. Say you place nightshroud on your character, and are charged by an enemy unit. As the item clearly states that attacks against the "Character" ignore all charging bonuses, strikes first rule, and are at I-1. Now here is the problem, being that the character is in the unit. What would the direct order be. I only ask because honestly I am not finding how this would go after looking in the BRB.

So would it go, Character, chargers, rest of normal unit? Or would the player have to first direct attacks directly at the character for this to kick in. If thats the case then the player after going to roll and you explaining that rule will just request to direct the attacks on the unit instead. Which is the problem no one likes suprises like that.

Now if it does go by the unit instead, say the Vampire challenges the unit as they charge, and the person declines it. Does this now mean his attacks which were for the champ only negated now directed at the unit being that the champion went to the back of the unit?

Now while looking for this another player asked about "situtational" charges. Which was also a bit blurry. His question was, lets say a unit charges, both have strikes first, both have same Int., now usually if its a continuing combat, it goes off who won previous combat, or who tied, in which case you roll off. however being that one charged his question was does it go by the "situation" in which case I replied, logically it should. Being that Unit A charged Unit B, Unit B has First Strike = Unit A's First strike, Unit B has I4 = Unit A's I4, Unit B charged > Unit A did not.

So second question is that appropate?

Loopstah
21-06-2008, 17:43
Okay now this one was inking me earlier and I still am not sure how to situate it. So here goes, after building a new list to mess around with on VC, I noticed a combo. Say you place nightshroud on your character, and are charged by an enemy unit. As the item clearly states that attacks against the "Character" ignore all charging bonuses, strikes first rule, and are at I-1. Now here is the problem, being that the character is in the unit. What would the direct order be. I only ask because honestly I am not finding how this would go after looking in the BRB.

So would it go, Character, chargers, rest of normal unit? Or would the player have to first direct attacks directly at the character for this to kick in. If thats the case then the player after going to roll and you explaining that rule will just request to direct the attacks on the unit instead. Which is the problem no one likes suprises like that.

The Nightshroud only works if the character wearing it is attacked so the enemy would have to allocate attacks first.

So you have two possibilities:

a) The attacker doesn't allocate any attacks to the character.
Resolve the combat as you would normally.

b) The attacker allocates attacks from 1,2 or 3 models in btb with the character against the character.
Only the 1,2 or 3 models allocating attacks against the character lose all charging bonuses, ASF and have I:1. The rest of the unit fight as usual (strike first due to charge, can use ASF if they have it and have normal initiative in following rounds.)

I would say that once the attacker allocates attacks on the character he can't change his mind once he finds out the character has the Nightshroud, that would be a bit dodgy.

Now if it does go by the unit instead, say the Vampire challenges the unit as they charge, and the person declines it. Does this now mean his attacks which were for the champ only negated now directed at the unit being that the champion went to the back of the unit?

Not sure what you mean, but you declare challenges before combat begins. If the opponent declines then you can declare your attacks on models in btb with the vampire. You don't lose your attacks if the opponent doesn't accept the challenge.

Now while looking for this another player asked about "situtational" charges. Which was also a bit blurry. His question was, lets say a unit charges, both have strikes first, both have same Int., now usually if its a continuing combat, it goes off who won previous combat, or who tied, in which case you roll off. however being that one charged his question was does it go by the "situation" in which case I replied, logically it should. Being that Unit A charged Unit B, Unit B has First Strike = Unit A's First strike, Unit B has I4 = Unit A's I4, Unit B charged > Unit A did not.

So second question is that appropate?

Some people would argue that based on the High Elf FAQ that ASF should cancel out and chargers would go first in that situation. Others would argue that the answer only applies when one side has Great Weapons and that you go by initiative otherwise.

If you believe the first to be true then the chargers would strike first, if you believe the second to be true then you would have to roll a dice. Pick which one you want until they hopefully clarify it in the near future.

theunwantedbeing
21-06-2008, 18:32
V = vampire with the nightshroud
G = ghouls
S = silverhelms

VGGGG
SSSSS

1. Silverhelms charged and have ASF, so will go first.
2. The silverhelms attacking the vampire will go last, due to the nightshroud.
3. The vampire will fight before the ghouls as his initituive is the highest (unless he has a great weapon, in which case he fights last, even after the silver helms attacking him as he has the strikes last rule, and they have in1)

As for challenging, challenges are declared and accepted/declined before any attacks are nominated.

Once you have declared your attacks your stuck doing them. So no changing your mind upon finding out that your 2 silverhelms are going to fight last.

In the case of units with the same charging bonus, initituive, etc...you roll off if there was no previous round of combat won.

Azmazi
22-06-2008, 06:40
Thanks for the answers and yeah we originally went with the idea of it being decided on the charge as well.

Also the further explain, what was the question about the negating was if the champion declined the challenge, would the character still be fighting everyone as I1 since he declined. We just decided that yes, since the champion declined the vampire takes free reign over who he decides to attack within the unit.

Loopstah
22-06-2008, 10:06
Thanks for the answers and yeah we originally went with the idea of it being decided on the charge as well.

Also the further explain, what was the question about the negating was if the champion declined the challenge, would the character still be fighting everyone as I1 since he declined. We just decided that yes, since the champion declined the vampire takes free reign over who he decides to attack within the unit.

Models aren't affected by the Nightshroud if the vampire attacks them, only if they attack the vampire.

Azmazi
22-06-2008, 12:48
For the sake of the RTT thats what we decided to go with. Although most of us have doubts anyone would decline the challenge just in favor of keeping the character locked up while getting their hits on the unit.

Revlid
22-06-2008, 12:58
Which is why you give the Shroud to a Necromancer on a Corpse Cart in a unit of Ghouls. A chunk of the attacking unit will have to allocate attacks to the Necromancer, thereby going last and being vulnerable to Ghoul's poison attacks or the attacks of the Cart.

Karpav
24-06-2008, 00:26
This item issue came up this past weekend. The VC unit was charged by twin HE chariots. The VC player, not aware that impact hits occur before combat was attempting to negate the impact hits of the chariots (yeah both of them even).

By tipping his hand too early the HE player elected to attack the R&F troopers with their spears (wouldn't you? :p). To this the VC player refused to accept (until shown the 'Which Models Fight?' section on p.32 of the BRB) -due to him wanting to reading a kind of "all models in base contact" type interpretation that it clearly does not have.

If you are going to take this item, don't mention it until models allocate attacks against the bearer. Otherwise you goofed.

theunwantedbeing
24-06-2008, 01:05
Bit tricky to hide when it's the only light armour available to your character's.

Azmazi
24-06-2008, 14:35
Bit tricky to hide when it's the only light armour available to your character's.

That doesn't make much sense btw, as you can still get up to a 3+ save while using it mounted. Unless you're trying to say by modeling, and we all know that doesn't apply to fantasy.

EvC
24-06-2008, 15:37
You have to declare all mundane equipment. Thus you should tell your opponent if you have light armour on your character. If they know about the army book, they'll know that means Nightshroud, if they don't know, then it's up to you whether to take advantage of their ignorance or not. I would not, however.

Azmazi
24-06-2008, 15:57
You have to declare if they ask...as to date, including at GT I never had anyone ask what equipment...they just asked whats his save, so I guess American players don't try to use that statement hence why I never ran into it.

PS: By what equipment I mean mundane, since I don't tell them what he has magically till after they chose the target to fight, in which case I let them know the details.

EvC
24-06-2008, 16:17
Well, hardly anyone gives the full mundane rundown anyway. Personally I tend to ask important questions like whether a Scar Veteran has a great weapon, if a mounted Noble has a lance, etc. But yeah, as theunwantedbeing says, it's not something you can actively hide if your opponent wants to find out. Hell, with your win record maybe you should try a couple of games where you do volunteer the information which is readily available ;)

Loopstah
24-06-2008, 17:36
This item issue came up this past weekend. The VC unit was charged by twin HE chariots. The VC player, not aware that impact hits occur before combat was attempting to negate the impact hits of the chariots (yeah both of them even).

If he waited till the chariots attacked the guy with the Nightshroud he could have negated the impact hits, guess he got impatient.

You have to declare all mundane equipment. Thus you should tell your opponent if you have light armour on your character. If they know about the army book, they'll know that means Nightshroud, if they don't know, then it's up to you whether to take advantage of their ignorance or not. I would not, however.

I'm confused, how is the Nightshroud "mundane equipment"?

The Nightshroud isn't light armour it's magic armour.

Karpav
24-06-2008, 21:55
If he waited till the chariots attacked the guy with the Nightshroud he could have negated the impact hits, guess he got impatient.

Not so much impatient- just not up to speed with 7th ed. Plays a lot of other GW and non GW games & wants to impose how he thinks things ought to work rather than the rules. I was a 'friendly' spectator (didn't have an opponent) and had corrected them that it's 8" to march block not 18", you don't generate dispel dice the same way you do power dice, etc. I wasn't even snarky about it, but by the time this came up my 'guidance' had irritated the VC player which I thought was odd since he was smashing his opponent mercilessly. Oh well, won the battle but lost the war. They blamed me for spoiling their game :confused: Parity. Not where I play- that game was just on a whole different dimension...

--As to whether or not the chariot would indeed cause impact hits against the unit- I disagree. Impact hits occur against the unit before anything else and are allocated as shooting (**with a slight caveat), therefore as long as the chariot is touching a RnF troop and there were at least five RnF models, the hits would avoid the character with the Nightshroud entirely and allocate to the surrounding unit.

--If a vamp with nightshroud was alone on an abyssal terror, the hits would impact the **monster:

"If the character is riding another chariot or monster, **all the impact hits will strike his chariot or mount and never the character itself." p.63 BRB.

--The items description states that it protects only against attacts directed at the bearer. Only if the Nightshroud wearing model was alone on foot or with less than 5 RnF troops would the impact hits be negated. About right for only 20 points...

The Nightshroud isn't light armour it's magic armour.
Yeah: (to empire player) "Is that wizard really holding a staff?" "no.. it's more of a rod really" "..And that one? is that truly a crystal ball?" "um.. more or less an Orbish device I'd say. Dang. :cries:"

Telling the difference from light & heavy armour from across the field should take something of a Marco Colombian spyglass to make out. I'd just say "some armor yeah". A magic lance is still a lance, a magic shield is still a shield, and light armor is light armor. It's not in the rules so work it out before the game. I am bad at this kind of thing myself & find out turn 2 that my opponent considers a particular hill feature to provide hard cover and the like. :eyebrows:

EvC
24-06-2008, 23:11
That's why it's a good idea to establish that kind of thing before the game, fo sho.

I'm confused, how is the Nightshroud "mundane equipment"?

The Nightshroud isn't light armour it's magic armour.

It counts as light armour. If something counts as a specific piece of equipment, then it follows all the rules for that piece of equipment, and for armour, that includes WYSIWYG. Since almost everyone breaks that rule, it's good practice to announce any stuff that's on a model and isn't obvious.

Azmazi
25-06-2008, 00:16
That's why it's a good idea to establish that kind of thing before the game, fo sho.

It counts as light armour. If something counts as a specific piece of equipment, then it follows all the rules for that piece of equipment, and for armour, that includes WYSIWYG. Since almost everyone breaks that rule, it's good practice to announce any stuff that's on a model and isn't obvious.

Well unfortunately thats one piece of armor thats a bit hard to convey. As its kinda hard to find one that looks like its wearing light armor with a shield and lance :P

On a more serious note, being that it is shrouded in shadows, you could just say...well it might appear like heavy armor, but thats due to the blinding of shadows and the like masking its true apperance.

Doctor Know
25-06-2008, 02:17
It counts as light armour. If something counts as a specific piece of equipment, then it follows all the rules for that piece of equipment, and for armour, that includes WYSIWYG. Since almost everyone breaks that rule, it's good practice to announce any stuff that's on a model and isn't obvious.

Just out of curiosity, where are the WYSIWYG rules? I've seen people reference them fairly often, and usually claiming different things.

As a tactical matter, it seems rather odd to have to model armor in the fashion you describe; with VC, for instance, you would be forced to model 4 of the 6 armors, but 2 (Walach's and the Flayed hauberk, arguably the 2 most interesting ones) would not be modeled at all, since they only have a set armor save, not a classification of light or heavy.

At the risk of a further aside, demanding differentiation between armor classes would seem to be an exercise in futility. Since neither heavy nor light armor ever actually existed as agreed upon types, it's just setting the stage for unwinnable arguments to insist a given armor represents one or the other.

EvC
25-06-2008, 09:29
Page 54. Although they talk about units, characters should also be considered units as well. The key is that by their words you shouldn't be "misleading".

All you have to do is say "this model has light armour in case you can't tell". Not difficult, and I can't see why anyone has a problem with being honest their opponents. Winning is not the be-all and end-all of playing, you know.

Loopstah
25-06-2008, 17:09
Page 54. Although they talk about units, characters should also be considered units as well. The key is that by their words you shouldn't be "misleading".

All you have to do is say "this model has light armour in case you can't tell". Not difficult, and I can't see why anyone has a problem with being honest their opponents. Winning is not the be-all and end-all of playing, you know.

While I agree in a sense, it doesn't mention armour at all, just weapons.

It makes sense that you know if you'll be facing 2 ranks from spears, +2 str from GW or the enemy will have +1 save through HW/S before you charge them.

I still think that regardless of what it counts as, magic armour is still a magic item and you shouldn't tell your opponent anything more, if they want to know they can use one of the ways of finding out. The Flayed Hauberk and Walach's Bloody Hauberk don't count as any mundane armour, just magic armour, so I don't see why the ones that do should be different.

If someone asks me "what's your necromancer wearing?" I would say magic armour, which would still be completely obvious as it's the only armour they can wear.
If they asked me what my vampire lord was wearing I'd also say magic armour though. They get to find out what sort when they use a spell or item that makes me tell them what type it is or they get into combat and I have to tell them my save/ special rules.

Bob the Imperial trooper might be able to tell the difference between light and heavy armour by looking at it, but he wouldn't have a clue what type magic armour was, as it isn't always what it appears to be.

Azmazi
25-06-2008, 19:30
While I agree in a sense, it doesn't mention armour at all, just weapons.

It makes sense that you know if you'll be facing 2 ranks from spears, +2 str from GW or the enemy will have +1 save through HW/S before you charge them.

I still think that regardless of what it counts as, magic armour is still a magic item and you shouldn't tell your opponent anything more, if they want to know they can use one of the ways of finding out. The Flayed Hauberk and Walach's Bloody Hauberk don't count as any mundane armour, just magic armour, so I don't see why the ones that do should be different.

If someone asks me "what's your necromancer wearing?" I would say magic armour, which would still be completely obvious as it's the only armour they can wear.
If they asked me what my vampire lord was wearing I'd also say magic armour though. They get to find out what sort when they use a spell or item that makes me tell them what type it is or they get into combat and I have to tell them my save/ special rules.

Bob the Imperial trooper might be able to tell the difference between light and heavy armour by looking at it, but he wouldn't have a clue what type magic armour was, as it isn't always what it appears to be.

This is pretty much my same opinion on this one as well, hence why most of the time they tend to just ask whats his armor save at our groups. We do say magic but never what kind. Which imo is the proper way of doing it myself. That is unless its the same list you been using for a while so by that point they already know what hes got memorized if its not the first time they played it :evilgrin: .