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Guardian
22-04-2005, 10:45
i wonder what would happen if a hive fleet or a couple of them converged on the eye?

Sai-Lauren
22-04-2005, 11:01
Who's eye? And the left or the right one? :D

Sorry, I presume you mean the eye of terror.

What would happen? The same as would happen if a hive fleet approached Tau space, or Alaitoc craftworld, or Terra - a very big, very messy, all vs all war, with some sides trying simply to stop the nids, others trying to aid them in order to weaken another side further and so on.

As far as the nid's are concerned, the eye is nothing special - but if you were talking about the Necrons, that could be a different story.

Bruen
22-04-2005, 11:07
As far as the nid's are concerned, the eye is nothing special - but if you were talking about the Necrons, that could be a different story.

Thats not true, the food tasts funny there.

Sai-Lauren
22-04-2005, 11:13
Thats not true, the food tasts funny there.

They'll probably evolve new taste buds to cope with it :p

Rich
22-04-2005, 11:34
I very much doubt they would survive. However, they do seem remarkably resistant to the effects of the warp, but I doubt that would prevent unpredictable mutations in their genepool - they would probably end up becoming fractured and degenerating into mindless beasts, tentacled and all.

Getz
22-04-2005, 15:46
Well, here's a question, can the Great Devourer consume the very stuff of Chaos. If it can't, then the deeper the fleet got into the Eye, the less sustenance it would be able to find...

If it can the the hordes of Chaos would basically be ********.

Hell's Angel
22-04-2005, 20:34
From a fluff perspective, they could be lost in the warp forever if it is the will of the chaos gods. Also, remember that daemons (in their infinite multitude) can cross into real space in the eye. Nothing, (not even the Nids) can face an infinite foe of Hell Spawns. If they could be beaten in the eye, the Imperium would have attempted it long ago. The Blockade was their only option because at least they could attempt to hold back the traitors (bless their cursed souls) as they are mostly physical beings.

Nids would Die, or worse be converted. Imagine a possessed Queen leading a brood...

Bruen
22-04-2005, 22:10
I think that a hive fleet would survive for a while by eating all of the non-demon things that live in the Eye like cultists and slaves etc, however sooner or later a chaos god is going to take notice and either manifest swarms of demons (which tyranids probably can't eat) in the way thats only possible in the Eye or start to mutate the creatures that make up the hive fleet.

The hive fleet would be forced to withdraw or be wiped out.

On the other hand I do not think that there is much danger of tyranid creatures falling under the control of chaos because if it felt them being corrupted the hive mind could just make them die.

I do wonder how the Shadow in the Warp would interact with the wierd nature of pace in the Eye. It could be interesting if the shadow turned space in the eye back to normal space but I doubt that the hive mind is that powerful (yet).

The thing that I find really scary about Tyranids is that they could afford to loose a few hive fleets experimenting because there are so many more out there. How many races have eaten an entire galaxy and then gone looking for desert?

The pestilent 1
22-04-2005, 23:39
The thing that I find really scary about Tyranids is that they could afford to loose a few hive fleets experimenting because there are so many more out there. How many races have eaten an entire galaxy and then gone looking for desert?

but thats the thing.
just how many have fallen?
is andromeda really dead because of a gamma pulse (well.. yes, as it happened about 3,000,000 years ago) but is what biomatter remained absorbed by the hivemind)
the tyranids are the greatest threat.




they are without number.
they are without pain.
they are without fear.
they are oblivian.
taken from my story-in-progress (nothing todo with the nids, but it certainly emphasises the point)

Black Ambience
23-04-2005, 00:16
Your assuming that a fully fledged Hive Fleet's Shadow in the Warp wouldn't do something really screwy to the Eye of Terror. Perhaps if a sufficiently large fleet entered the Eye then it would actually pacify the Warp in that area (thanks to the overload of psychic communication), thereby preventing the existence of said Daemonic Legions, Chaos Gods and so on. The Tyranids could theoretically defeat Chaos without raising a single talon...

EDIT: Seems Bruen did mention this afterall! Don't know how I missed that. But adding on to what he was saying - the Hive Mind is already quite possibly the single most powerful psychic "force" out there, and the Shadow generated bya single splinter fleet is enough to "drive Daemons in the warp mad and send them fleeing in terror", and to "shut down astropathic communication across a sector". A big fleet would more than likely screw the Eye over royally! :p

Bruen
23-04-2005, 00:17
but thats the thing.
just how many have fallen?
is andromeda really dead because of a gamma pulse (well.. yes, as it happened about 3,000,000 years ago) but is what biomatter remained absorbed by the hivemind)

Well according to P39 of the Tyranid Codex there are "a billion times a billion" Tyranids at the edges of our galaxy. I assume that a billion is 1,000,000,000, I understand that it means even more in the US.

According to P2 each hive fleet is made up of billions of Tyranid creatures. Assuming 10,000,000,000 Tyranids per hive fleet that gives us a very rough estimate of 100,000,000 hive fleets near our galaxy alone.

Lets just say that again: 100,000,000 HIVE FLEETS for our galaxy alone!

Even assuming that the figure is out by a factor of 100 thats ONE MILLION HIVE FLEETS.

OK I accept that its dodgy to use fluff for calculations like this but however you cut it there are a ton of Tyranids out there plus however many went after other galaxies. There may be more Tyranids out there than there are creatures living in our galaxy.

The Tyranids are coming to diner and a free buffet isn't going to satisfy them.

DantesInferno
23-04-2005, 00:23
Somehow I don't think the author had your sorts of calculations in mind when he wrote "a billion times a billion". I think it was more to give you the sense of a really big number, though perhaps not 10^18.......Of course, how do you define a Tyranid organism anyway? Remember there are also tiny tiny creatures which serve as ammunition etc. The numbers could be a lot bigger than they actually appear.

Bruen
23-04-2005, 00:30
Somehow I don't think the author had your sorts of calculations in mind when he wrote "a billion times a billion". I think it was more to give you the sense of a really big number, though perhaps not 10^18.......Of course, how do you define a Tyranid organism anyway? Remember there are also tiny tiny creatures which serve as ammunition etc. The numbers could be a lot bigger than they actually appear.

What I was trying to illustrate is that there are far more Tyranids than just the three hive fleets that we know of. Vasty more.

The hive mind could spare a hive fleet to see what conditions are like in the Eye, even if it was wiped out.

If I lived in the 40k universe the two things that would really scare me are the Necrons and the Tyranids, chaos is a minor annoyance by comparison.

DantesInferno
23-04-2005, 00:58
What I was trying to illustrate is that there are far more Tyranids than just the three hive fleets that we know of. Vasty more.

Well, not necessarily. We just don't know. The "billion times a billion" figure may be counting all the microscopic Tyranid organisms which maintain the Hive Ships for instance. Of course there may well be more large scale Hive Fleets such as Kraken and Leviathan out there, but you can't claim the entire galaxy is doomed yet.



If I lived in the 40k universe the two things that would really scare me are the Necrons and the Tyranids, chaos is a minor annoyance by comparison.

Yeah this is one of my biggest problems with new races for 40k. In order to try and sell their new army, they make them the BIGGEST THREAT TO THE GALAXY EVER!1!1!!(tm) They went the right way with the Tau, but giving you the impression that the entire galaxy is doomed over and over again is rather silly. Besides, it weakens the threat of Chaos, which should always be the central thematic concern of the 40k universe, to a sideshow. Chaos is a much more powerful and interesting force because it is internal, not external. A really fundamental interest for me is the dichotomy (I love that word!) between the organised brutality of the Imperium and the chaotic brutality of Chaos. The Nids and C'tan sort of cheapen this, because they give you the sense it basically doesn't matter.

Bruen
23-04-2005, 02:18
Well, not necessarily. We just don't know. The "billion times a billion" figure may be counting all the microscopic Tyranid organisms which maintain the Hive Ships for instance. Of course there may well be more large scale Hive Fleets such as Kraken and Leviathan out there, but you can't claim the entire galaxy is doomed yet.

The codex says there are billions of Tyranid creatures in each hive fleet. Given the number of hive fleets even if "billions" means 100 billion thats still a lot of hive fleets.


Yeah this is one of my biggest problems with new races for 40k. In order to try and sell their new army, they make them the BIGGEST THREAT TO THE GALAXY EVER!1!1!!(tm) They went the right way with the Tau, but giving you the impression that the entire galaxy is doomed over and over again is rather silly. Besides, it weakens the threat of Chaos, which should always be the central thematic concern of the 40k universe, to a sideshow. Chaos is a much more powerful and interesting force because it is internal, not external.

Tyranids always been a massive, but not immediate, threat even back to the Space Hulk days it was implicit that they were going to be a big problem.

If you look at the real long term the universe is doomed anyway once the expansion stops and all matter comes together in the Big Splat.

For me Chaos always has been a sideshow, its a little problem that humans and eldar have that really doesn't affect anyone else. Its about as significant as Commander Farsight is to the 40k universe. Once the humans and eldar die out so will chaos, because its gods will have no worshippers.

The fact that Chaos is internal as you say limits its effects to those races that contribute to it. Noone else really needs to care in the long run. Chaos certainly isn't going to affect the other big powers (Tyranids, Necrons, Orcs) much. There are too many Tyranids to resist in the long run and their control is too great to corrupt large portions. Necrons at full strength are too powerful for Chaos and corrupting Orcs would be like trying to nail jello to a wall.


A really fundamental interest for me is the dichotomy (I love that word!) between the organised brutality of the Imperium and the chaotic brutality of Chaos. The Nids and C'tan sort of cheapen this, because they give you the sense it basically doesn't matter.

I think its a mistake to think of Chaos as chaotic. If you read the 40k novels like Traitor General chaos is very organised, just look at the Blood Pact for example. They have armies and worlds and a society and all the things that the empire has.

If anything traitor humans and loyalist humans are practicaly identical when compared to the other races. If they were thinking logicaly it would make sense for chaos and loyalist marines to join forces and defeat all the other races (if they could) before returning to their feud.

I have long been bored with the simplistic chaos/order theme of the imperium, I just don't care if either or both of those forces perish. This struggle has been done to death, its a cliche.

What I am interested in is how the various races struggle for survival before they go under. In the end I think that the only races that will be left standing are the three I mentioned earlier Tyranids, Necrons and Orcs.

Khaine's Messenger
23-04-2005, 02:38
Nids vs. the EoT? The only prayer the Tyranids have is that the Shadow in the Warp might do something helpful. Given that there are areas of slippery space and heavy warp/realspace overlap, though, it's quite possible that some really odd things might happen to the Tyranids. But if the SitW is not helpful? Eh. We're talking about deathworlds with more than a modicum of intelligence and entire worlds built from the core out by the whim and fancy of Chaos, where physical reality itself is slaved to daemonic will. There's going to be an enormous home turf advantage, no matter how you slice it, and even Tyranids, no matter how many there are, only come in finite amounts, while, say, daemons can just re-manifest...or do something bizarre, like expand their manifestation and play pool with planets.

The Tyranids might "take" the outer rim worlds, but as they move towards the center of the Eye, there's going to be Trouble.

Lord Balor
23-04-2005, 03:29
Look at in the Long run, Choas will have the advantage at the start, but as the war draws on, it will sway to the nids. Here's a couple of points to consider:

Chaos Can Remanifest Daemons. Tyranids can re-geratate Everything that is and go one step better to adapt, evolve and overcome problems the previous spawnings came across.

Chaos Relies on Worship to stay strong, Nids rely on Biomatter. War = Dead People which weakens Chaos and Strengthens the Nids at the same time. Remembering that the majority of Chaos followers are nothing more than mutants and the Unadapted Nids pwned the Ultramarines 1st company, the Traitor Legions aren't as massive a threat as they seem.

Chaos have the warp at thier command, Nids have the Shadow of the Warp which is powerful enough to blank out the psychic Beacon which the Emperor himself consentrates. The Tyranid race itself can almost be considered the most powerful consciounce 'Psyker' that ever lived.

Every Nid is absolutely Co-Ordinated, The Factions in the eye are utterly split and UnCo.

The end result however will be in chaos' favour, but at a cost which will weaken them for an eternity (Having most of their physical realm consumed, including the vast majority of followers).

Its a battle of the Titans, I personally think Chaos Will 'win' in the End but at so high a cost that it isn't really a win. Then again i could be wrong and maybe the Chaos Gods are too powerful for the Hive Mind...

The pestilent 1
23-04-2005, 12:51
What I am interested in is how the various races struggle for survival before they go under. In the end I think that the only races that will be left standing are the three I mentioned earlier Tyranids, Necrons and Orcs.

the orks dont stand a chance.
they may reproduce like rabbits, but between the Tyranids and the Necrons, they wont have any worlds left to reproduce on!
im sure they will give one hell of a fight mind you.
but in the end, the great devourer shall sweep aside all resistance and move on to the next buffet.
except the necrons, they dont seem to really care about them.

Captain Morgan
23-04-2005, 16:14
Its a battle of the Titans, I personally think Chaos Will 'win' in the End but at so high a cost that it isn't really a win. Then again i could be wrong and maybe the Chaos Gods are too powerful for the Hive Mind...

You could be wrong, but then again you could be right... personally I think that any hivefleet that happens to wander in the Eye is going to be ripped to shreds by all the space anomolies... And there's probably a black hole inte there somewhere, and it matters not who you are, a black hole will annihilate you.

Bruen
23-04-2005, 16:38
the orks dont stand a chance.
they may reproduce like rabbits, but between the Tyranids and the Necrons, they wont have any worlds left to reproduce on!

You would have been right with the old Ork fluff, but with the new method of reproduction by spore all you need is one spore on a planet or a space hulk or a starship somewhere and the Ork race can regrow itself eventualy.

I think that it is unlikely that even Tyranids or Necrons would be able to get every single spore.

Bruen
23-04-2005, 16:48
You could be wrong, but then again you could be right... personally I think that any hivefleet that happens to wander in the Eye is going to be ripped to shreds by all the space anomolies... And there's probably a black hole inte there somewhere, and it matters not who you are, a black hole will annihilate you.

The thing that I wonder about is what happens if the Tyranids eat everything in the galaxy outside the Eye of Terror. Where does this leave the Chaos gods?

Can they survive without worshippers?

Flame Boy
23-04-2005, 16:59
Do you think Tyranids are even slightly corruptable by chaos? I guess they can mutate the hulls of inanimate vehicles, so I guess it's possible, but with no understanding of the moral choices involved in the chaos powers, they couldn't be converted, but mutated perhaps?

I would say this however, if a Tyranid Hive fleet entered the Eye of Terror, it would give the Traitor legions some other than the Golden Throne to worry about, which would make a pleasant change. :p

Bruen
23-04-2005, 17:12
Do you think Tyranids are even slightly corruptable by chaos? I guess they can mutate the hulls of inanimate vehicles, so I guess it's possible, but with no understanding of the moral choices involved in the chaos powers, they couldn't be converted, but mutated perhaps?

I think (based on absolutly nothing :P) that chaos could corrupt individual tyranid bodies and maybe even hive ships, but because they are all part of the hive mind the hive mind can just instruct those tyranids to die. It would be like your fingernail turning to chaos, annoying but not serious because the fingernail is unable to act without you.

The sort of scenario that I can think of working is Chaos somehow temorarily disrupting a creatures link to the hive mind and then taking it over while it is confused and distracted. The problem is that all Chaos ends up with after all that work is a confused tyranid and they are ten a penny and once the hive mind reconnects then that tyranid is dead. Even if you take over hundreds or thousands of tyranids there are still thousands of billions to come.

I do not believe that the hive mind itself could be corrupted. In the same way as the chaos gods cannot corrupt each other, the hive mind is just to big and too coherent for that.

Captain Morgan
23-04-2005, 17:39
Well, the gods would probably die. But the Eye (all speculation from my part) would probably be still there, and you can't destroy the warp now can you. So Chaos will probably always exist waiting for some new and stupid race searching for some sweet, sweet sexual perversion... stupid eldar...

And what I have understood about the Tyranids is that if you kill the synapse creatures then the entire army is fried, so it's probably possible to corrupt them... maybe not an entire hivefleet, but big parts of them. And the sweet thing about chaos is that they most likley could mutate the creatures in question so that they are no longer receptive to the hive.

Black Ambience
23-04-2005, 17:49
The Iron Warriors once infected a Hive Ship with the Obliterator Virus, and then used it as a flagship. This took a lot of effort, planning and general fuss. Worthwhile in the end, but not feasible on a large scale.

The Hive Mind cannot be corrupted by Chaos per se - it is a) more than just a "warp entity" and b) is far too alien for the humano-centric Chaos Gods to affect.

We also don't know what the Tyranid's relationship with the Warp is - I'd argue that they have "mastered" the Warp just as they have mastered bio-technology. They communicate through psychic signals, are governed by an overmind that is the sum of all Tyranid consciousness (and then a little bit extra - greater than the sum of its parts), can travel through the Warp whilst semi-dormant, use internal teleportation devices that are in fact a creature that mostly exists within the Warp and create a Shadow in the Warp so powerful that it drives daemons insane and blocks out the power of the Emperor himself (humanity's greatest psyker).

Flame Boy
23-04-2005, 18:55
... In addition to that, the Genestealers apparent were introduced into the galaxy far before the first large-scale Tyranid Hive Fleet incursions, yet they were able to keep in telepathic contect with the Hive Mind using the Genestealer Patriarch figures as relay nodes. That's one creature doing the equivalent of setting up the Astropathic choir on Terra.

Black Ambience
23-04-2005, 21:25
Such is the power of the Hive Mind. If it wants to do something, then it gets it done.

The pestilent 1
23-04-2005, 23:27
You would have been right with the old Ork fluff, but with the new method of reproduction by spore all you need is one spore on a planet or a space hulk or a starship somewhere and the Ork race can regrow itself eventualy.

I think that it is unlikely that even Tyranids or Necrons would be able to get every single spore.

no prehaps not.
but every single planet is a big possibilitie with an unending swarm of constantly evolving extra-galactic space bugs.
even if they have to evolve into giant vaccum cleaners, they would find a way. :rolleyes:

Guardian
24-04-2005, 04:39
considering the shadow effect of the hive,

if the hive surrounded a daemon materalised world and did not invade it, ould the shadow be enough to sunff out the daemonic presence on that planet which would then be left defenceless, so it would either crumble and dissapear or the daemon influence stagnate leaving a planet ripe for the plucking?

i think the shadow would do the latter of the two, afterall the astronocan is nothing more than a flashlite in the infinance of space compared to the size and power of the warp and the shadow would have not trouble mopping that thittle thing up.

Black Ambience
24-04-2005, 11:55
no prehaps not.
but every single planet is a big possibilitie with an unending swarm of constantly evolving extra-galactic space bugs.
even if they have to evolve into giant vaccum cleaners, they would find a way. :rolleyes:

But the Spores need certain conditions to gestate into Orks. These conditions aren't found on a world that the Tyranids have devoured - there is no atmosphere, no useful materials, no water, nothing. Even the Orks cannot survive in that sort of climate. Given enough time, the Tyranids could wipe out the Orks by the simple premise of leaving the Orks with no planets left to inhabit.

Talkie Toaster
24-04-2005, 14:56
I reckon it'd probably be well worth the 'nids while to invade the EoT, even if they have to retreat. Remember the Traitor Primarchs? The EoT contains the greatest genetic material in the galaxy (excepting perhaps Terra), 'nids running on Primarch DNA would be godlike. What's a few dozen hivefleets sacrificed if the rest become night invincible?

Flame Boy
24-04-2005, 15:03
Very true... then all that would be left of the Ork race would be those left floating on space hulks... perhaps they could create adequate conditions to thrive if there are Ork Gardeners... :P

Black Ambience
24-04-2005, 17:23
I reckon it'd probably be well worth the 'nids while to invade the EoT, even if they have to retreat. Remember the Traitor Primarchs? The EoT contains the greatest genetic material in the galaxy (excepting perhaps Terra), 'nids running on Primarch DNA would be godlike. What's a few dozen hivefleets sacrificed if the rest become night invincible?

They are Daemon Primarch's now - odds are that their genetics are loooong gone. The Primarch's weren't nigh invincible anyway - otherwise humanity would have conquered the entire galaxy and wiped out everything while they were still alive and kicking. Powerful, but not god-like.

If I were the Tyranids, I'd much rather feast upon a million defenceless agri-worlds than invade the Eye to chew on some corrupted and mutated DNA.

Unfortunately, we'll probably never know if they do or not...

DrumrbaxJ
25-04-2005, 02:25
Who can really tell? It's be interesting htough to move the focus away from Space Marines and Chaos. Even good things can get old.

DantesInferno
25-04-2005, 02:35
I reckon it'd probably be well worth the 'nids while to invade the EoT, even if they have to retreat. Remember the Traitor Primarchs? The EoT contains the greatest genetic material in the galaxy (excepting perhaps Terra), 'nids running on Primarch DNA would be godlike. What's a few dozen hivefleets sacrificed if the rest become night invincible?

If they wanted Primarch DNA, surely it would have been easier to unplug Roboute Guilliman's statis machine and eat him on Macragge.......

DrumrbaxJ
25-04-2005, 03:13
Well, honestly. How is a gaunt going to do that? :p

Guardian
25-04-2005, 08:17
they would have to evolve to interrogate and use human controls and stuff, or just get sharper teeth.

Bruen
25-04-2005, 11:10
If they wanted Primarch DNA, surely it would have been easier to unplug Roboute Guilliman's statis machine and eat him on Macragge.......

Perhaps thats why the Tyranids attacked the system in the first place? It wasn't just a random target like we all thought.

DrumrbaxJ
25-04-2005, 11:20
Hmm, very conspiratorial.

The pestilent 1
25-04-2005, 22:52
seeking out the purest genes, the greatest stock if you will...
hmmm...
very "your biological distinctiveness will be added to our own, your civilisation shall serve the greater whole" isnt it :D

Getz
27-04-2005, 00:18
But lets be honest, if the 'Nids consumed Guilliman's DNA, they'd just become very boring and a bit crap...

DrumrbaxJ
27-04-2005, 06:51
That's very true. Where would the fun be then?

Guardian
28-04-2005, 00:06
it would be fun trying that's for sure :)

how about this.

we all know the C'tan's distaste for the warp, do you think they know the effects of such a thing?

would they be the ones to hurd the hive toward the eye and complete their great plan?

The pestilent 1
28-04-2005, 15:51
But lets be honest, if the 'Nids consumed Guilliman's DNA, they'd just become very boring and a bit crap...

unless a future dude (maybe gullimans bestest buddy in the whole world.. bah, lets say Uriel hes a good ol heretic :p ) comes back because of some divine intervention (chaotic or otherwise) and gives him Transphasic torpedoes and ablative armour generators and then shows stasis gulliman the way home (from his coma obviously)

maybe that was a Star trek episode though. :p :rolleyes:

Dakkagor
28-04-2005, 18:36
"If I lived in the 40k universe the two things that would really scare me are the Necrons and the Tyranids, chaos is a minor annoyance by comparison."

Would it? Necrons and Nids are probably military secrets in any warzones they aren't engaged in.

Chaos is a legend, a child hood tale to scare children. A chaos space marine invading your world is like the big bad wolf knocking on your door when you are twenty and then blowing your mortaged house down.

Orks are the ever present threat, like terrorists or communism. I think the idea of ork invasion keeps more imperial citizens awake than being eaten by the bugs or demolucularised by the robot men.

Bruen
28-04-2005, 19:23
Would it? Necrons and Nids are probably military secrets in any warzones they aren't engaged in.

Orks are the ever present threat, like terrorists or communism. I think the idea of ork invasion keeps more imperial citizens awake than being eaten by the bugs or demolucularised by the robot men.

That's true about the secrecy, but I don't see why Necrons and Nids would be kept any more secret than Orks.

Besides they produce posters to show IG and PDF how to kill Nids and advice posters to tell citizens what to do, as seen in the Tyranid codex. They are not that secret.

Hell's Angel
28-04-2005, 20:34
So the popular concensus is that 'The shadow in the Warp' could possibly contest the mastery of tzeentch? What would happen if Tzeentch Cut off the flow of the warp to the Nids altogether? They would quickly become the mindless insects that they are without direction of the Hive Mind. I have to believe that Gods that LIVE in the warp have more mastery than Insects that have 'mastered' the warp.

Bruen
28-04-2005, 20:51
What would happen if Tzeentch Cut off the flow of the warp to the Nids altogether? They would quickly become the mindless insects that they are without direction of the Hive Mind.

"Cut off the flow of the warp"? Thats like saying "cut off the flow of space", I do not believe that the Warp is something that can be cut off.

Hell's Angel
28-04-2005, 22:52
I would argue that black holes 'cut off the flow of space' and seems how the warp is a reflection of the physical universe I'm sure their equivilent could be constructed by the Gods of the Warp. Destroy the warp reflections or 'the shadow' of the Nids, and they would be unable to communicate. Im not going to say that they would die because there are creatures that do not have warp reflections... Of course this brings up the problem that without warp reflections they are immune to the powers of the warp, although I am pretty sure they could still be torn to pieces/cut/shot like regular creatures.

Guardian
29-04-2005, 00:10
would the blanketing of the warp, caused by the shadow be enough to distroy a chaos god? afterall they are just a really powerful entity/eddy

DantesInferno
29-04-2005, 00:29
"Cut off the flow of the warp"? Thats like saying "cut off the flow of space", I do not believe that the Warp is something that can be cut off.

Tell that to the C'tan - their whole Great Plan involves permanently cutting the warp off from realspace. Look at the (probably Necron/Necrontyr) pylons on Cadia, which serve to protect Cadia from being swamped by the Eye.

It is doubtful whether the Tyranid "Shadow in the Warp" effect works along the same principles, but the purpose is similar.

Wraith
29-04-2005, 10:03
would the blanketing of the warp, caused by the shadow be enough to distroy a chaos god? afterall they are just a really powerful entity/eddy

Your right in the sense that they aren't 'gods' they just get called 'gods' in fact they're just giant sentient warp storms...

To answer your questions they wouldn't be destroyed (well... depends how you look at it) they'd probably shrink to what they once were when the warp was calm before the Old Ones and their creations riled it up -- a particular breed of warp predator, little more than an animal, simply feeding on lesser warp entites.

Bruen
29-04-2005, 10:44
Tell that to the C'tan - their whole Great Plan involves permanently cutting the warp off from realspace. Look at the (probably Necron/Necrontyr) pylons on Cadia, which serve to protect Cadia from being swamped by the Eye.

It is doubtful whether the Tyranid "Shadow in the Warp" effect works along the same principles, but the purpose is similar.

These are two completly different effects:

The Tyranid "Shadow in the Warp" prevents astropathic communication and makes warp travel dificult for anyone except the Tyranids. We do not know what effect it would have on the Eye of Terror, if any.

The Cadian pylons prevent the spread of the Eye of Terror, a place where the raw material of the warp spills into normal space. As astropathic communications and warp travel work normally around Cadia we can assume that it is nothing like the "Shadow in the Warp".

If you want an analogy the Shadow in the Warp is oil poured onto a rough sea, the Cadian pylons are a sea wall. Sure they both affect the sea, but they are nothing like each other.

Hell's Angel
29-04-2005, 18:43
Originally the Chaos gods were 'sentient warp storms' or coalesced emotion in the warp which formed entities. Humans were once amino acids that coalesced in the same manner to form proteins, and then basic life. Who can say how evolved the chaos gods have become. Just because it mentions their origin doesn’t mean that they have not evolved into something greater.

Xhalax
01-05-2005, 22:13
After a bizarre conversation on this subject (more or less.....we were talking about how humanity is still hanging on to their dominion in the face of all of these enemies that are usually or at least theortically better than humanity), I decided that maybe the Nids could breed something so big it could plug up the Eye of Terror.
After all, it's a tear in normal space, so theortically it could be repaired in someway.
A HUGE Nid which is psychically blank plugs the EoT with it's backside?

Nah! Not really possible.
Possessed Nids, I can't imagine it myself. I get the feeling that everything that has some sort of feeling and emotions would be a target for the Ruinous Powers. I'd say that Nids don't have anything like that. As they're the most alien of all the xenos races as I can't find a single shred of anything that could be seen as even remotely human about them (as it should be).

Anyway....isn't the herald of a Fleet a disruption of the warp so that nothing can get through?
So.....if they more or less nullify the warp....then Daemons wouldn't be able to possess them. Would they even be able to manifest in real space so close to a Hive Fleet, let alone get close enough to convert them.

Ok, I'm waffling close to spam ranting now...so I'll stop. But anyone answer my questions/put me on the right track?

Adept
02-05-2005, 15:50
From a fluff perspective, they could be lost in the warp forever if it is the will of the chaos gods.

You know, I'm not so sure. The warp presence of the hive mind basically seems to 'shut down' the warp around it. Would Daemons even be able to materialise? I know they can in game terms, but we aren't really sure how the Nids affect the warp. We know ships find it extremely difficult and dangerous to travel through Nid affected warpspace, and no messages can be sent through it. Do daemons still inhabit it? Are they strong enough to overcome the collective consciousness that is the hive mind?

I guess we'll never know.

As an aside, does anyone have any of the 'Citizens Beware!' style pics on their hard drive, or links to said pics? They'd make cool cover sheets for my nid armylists for this years GT.

Guardian
02-05-2005, 23:43
i think we will have to do some research on the effects of the hive mind on the warp,
i was of the impression that the shadow basically blanketed the warp, aka something like a black hole. while it is not huge enough to cover the entire warp space continium, once something went in, it was not going to come out.

Getz
03-05-2005, 02:32
What would happen if the 'Nids got hold of Pariah DNA? (as they did the other day when they ate my Culexus Assassin)

Bmaxwell
03-05-2005, 18:05
it seems to me that STW seems to me to be more of a warp dampaner then actaully cutting the warp away form the possiably makeing it so that the sysnape creatures can communcaite much like a pressuerized cabin in a ariplane allows you to breath at such high altuides. deamons takeing over nid's bodies i doubt it. nid when you take away the synaspe creatures are just simple beast.

now that i think about it mabye they could i don't know if a deamon has ever taken over a simple beast so once removeing the synsape creature they could but what use would that be. the only way a nid would be usefull for the chaos gods would be takeing one of the creatures that makes the nids but of course these are synapse creatures so thats out

Hell's Angel
03-05-2005, 18:57
One of those rediculous Space Wolf Ragnar novels described Nids that had been corrupted by a Nurgle artifact. Fluff wise they can be corrupted.

Bmaxwell
03-05-2005, 19:11
thats ture I forgot about that one

Dakkagor
06-05-2005, 22:01
Getz, I didn't know you had a culexus assasin.

Its very funny that it was eaten though. I'm guessing Big Dave. Am I correct?

As for the warp shadow. . . I think the warpshadow would be effective to a point, especially at the edges of the eye. But at the centre, its almost pure warp space. There, nothing would stop daemons from manifesting and tearing the nids a new one.

Getz
07-05-2005, 00:12
Getz, I didn't know you had a culexus assasin.

I don't, I was trying out someone's Witch hunter army at GW Bluewater.

Guardian
07-05-2005, 02:51
WD 145


In order to move from planet to planet, human spacecraft travel through the alternate dimension of psychic energy known as the warp. The warp is the medium through which human Astro-telepaths send psychic messages enabling the million worlds of the Imperium to communicate with each other. A great psychic beacon, the Astronomican, shines through the warp to guide spaceships through its dangerous reefs and shoals.

The Tyranid hive fleet also travels through the warp. Normally any spacecraft moving through the warp sets up vibrations which can be detected by a human Astropath, but the hive fleet is so unimaginably vast that it creates an impenetrable disturbance like a huge blocking shadow. This shadow is the dark, impenetrable will of the hive mind itself, before which the astral spirit of a puny psyker is as safe as a candle in a hurricane.

The shadow cast by the hive mind presents an impenetrable wall which prevents Astropaths from sending or receiving telepathic messages, stops spacecraft entering the warp and forces spacecraft already in the warp wildly off-course. As the Tyranid hive fleet advances, the area of the Imperium swallowed up by it simply stops communicating, giving almost no clues as to what has happened.

well it says it's an impenetrable wall, would this ba a case of immovable object meets unlimited force?

Wert
07-05-2005, 18:05
I think Chaos would loose in a Tyranid-Chaos war over the EOT. The ‘nids aren’t just a physical entity; they have a huge impact in warp space. The shadow cast by hive fleets is the joint consciousness of the ‘nids totally dominating the warp, not just effecting it, but having such total control over it that no other power, be it physical or warp based, can use it. The chaos gods are only as strong as the number of worshipers they have. The ‘nids have consumed at least 1 galaxy already, probably more, and all that biomass has gone into making more ‘nids. The joint psychic imprint of all those nids on the warp would out-number the imprint of the all the worshipers of chaos in the galaxy combined many times over, especially considering how single minded the nids are. In a war over the EOT, the Chaos gods wouldn’t dominate the warp anymore than their followers would dominate the fighting in real space. The Hive mind is like a warp God in its own right, and it beets all the other Gods talons down when it comes to worshiper count and thus power.

Or i could be a wrong and they get there abdomens wooped...

Kjell
07-05-2005, 18:45
If the Tyranids invaded the Eye of Terror and managed to not die, wouldn't the entire forces of Chaos soon realise that they were in serious trouble and ignore mutual hatreds to band together and fight for their existence? Never mind the Ruinous Powers themselves... The Great Four banding together to lay the smack down on the Hive Mind has got to be the wrestling match of the millenium. Any millenium. :D

Even if the Hive Mind is monstrously powerful, wouldn't the Chaos gods be too? Furthemore, what about Chaos Undivided? Let's say that the big four aren't individuals but merely part of something bigger. Just like a Tyranid is part of the Hive Mind, maybe the four gods are part of something way more powerful? Chaos Undivided, the closest thing to God Almighty there ever was in the 40K universe, would be one helluva force to be reckoned with if it was prodded into direct action.

If that was possible, we have no idea if it really is, I would not want to be the Hive Mind. I wouldn't want to be anyone, for that matter. :o

Guardian
08-05-2005, 00:38
The first Tyranid Hive Swarms attacked Iyanden just 20 days later. By then the Craftworld had already been isolated for over a week by a Tyranid psychic blockade


looking at the effect a have fleet has on what was the largest craftworld of them all,

surly the effect of the hive mind on the eye would be equally as serious.

wibble
31-05-2005, 19:36
But the Eye of Terror would be where Tzeentch's power would be strongest and even if any mortal psyker would suffer the Shadow in the Warp, I'm fairly sure that the CHaos god who controls magic etc. would be able to control the hive mind. Surely you'd just end up with a chaos controlled hive that would be spat back out of the EoT and consume more of the galaxy than it had before (with chaos gifts and powers as well as all the usual 'nids stuff)

Twisted Ferret
31-05-2005, 20:09
Yeah, I doubt that one hive fleet would be able to do much. You have an entire realm of warp space, plus all four Chaos gods - who are powerful enough to be called gods. I'm guessing that as Khornate berserkers chop the bugs into little pices, Nurglite plague priests infect the 'Nids with all sort of nasty viruses, and Slaaneshi... pleasure-slaves entice the insects with their sexual wiles, Tzeentch & co. would be working on pushing back that Warp wall. Hell, they might be able to cut off the Hive Mind's connection entirely.

As for the Craftworld argument - one craftworld is NOTHING, nothing at all next to the entire Eye of Terror. I mean, come on. :wtf:

Rövhalt
01-06-2005, 09:11
I'm guessing that as Khornate berserkers chop the bugs into little pices, Nurglite plague priests infect the 'Nids with all sort of nasty viruses, and Slaaneshi... pleasure-slaves entice the insects with their sexual wiles, Tzeentch & co. would be working on pushing back that Warp wall. Hell, they might be able to cut off the Hive Mind's connection entirely.

Well, first of all a genestealer will kick a berserkers ass. Secondly the 'nids will probably evolve a immunity, or better yet, use the DNA of said plague to become better. Thirdly, the bugs are asexual, so no rumbling up in the cuckoo's nest for them. The only ones who actually has a chance in your scenario is the almighty Tzeentch and his insane posse of miscreants. And that's not even a sure thing... So bring on that Eye!

Adept
01-06-2005, 10:16
Well, it all depends on exactly what effect the shadow on the warp has. If it's a powerful warp entity in it's own right, essentially the home of the tyranid consciousness, then I think it's probably quite concievable that it could at least stymie the ruinous powers.

If it is more in the vein of a message over-load, simply preventing communication, then the bugs could be in trouble.

Sai-Lauren
01-06-2005, 10:55
Well, it all depends on exactly what effect the shadow on the warp has. If it's a powerful warp entity in it's own right, essentially the home of the tyranid consciousness, then I think it's probably quite concievable that it could at least stymie the ruinous powers.

If it is more in the vein of a message over-load, simply preventing communication, then the bugs could be in trouble.

I'd actually say the reverse. If it's simply jamming communications, then it would most likely separate the chaos gods from their worshippers, and their worshippers from certain things - like daemons. We can assume that they can punch through the jamming to summon them (as there's no tyrannid rule stopping daemon summoning, the use of psychic powers, affecting eldar wraith constructs etc), but that's going to take a lot more energy and sacrifices than normal.
If it's a gestalt consiousness, then there'll be some buttons in there that the chaos gods can press.



Even if the Hive Mind is monstrously powerful, wouldn't the Chaos gods be too? Furthemore, what about Chaos Undivided? Let's say that the big four aren't individuals but merely part of something bigger. Just like a Tyranid is part of the Hive Mind, maybe the four gods are part of something way more powerful? Chaos Undivided, the closest thing to God Almighty there ever was in the 40K universe, would be one helluva force to be reckoned with if it was prodded into direct action.


The chaos gods are nothing without their worshippers, wheras the 'nids can regenerate their troops from anything organic. Again, summoning daemons would be a very effective tactic, but sooner or later, the chaos troops are going to have to get involved (especially Khornate ones - IMO it's likely that Khorne may be the first of the gods to fall in this situation). Nurgle followers might have a lot of success at the start, but if the hive fleet can evolve defences against their plagues, then bio-weapons might suddenly come back at them.

wibble
01-06-2005, 15:33
It is true that the chaos gods are nothing without their followers, but unlike the tyranids, the followers are not linked directly to their gods. Surely if a powerful enough Tzeentch daemon (or Tzeentch himself) were to channel his power through a synapse creature, then he could directly affect the hive mind as a whole; possibly having massive repercussions on the other synapse creatures and the 'nids in general.

Adept
01-06-2005, 15:47
It is true that the chaos gods are nothing without their followers, but unlike the tyranids, the followers are not linked directly to their gods. Surely if a powerful enough Tzeentch daemon (or Tzeentch himself) were to channel his power through a synapse creature, then he could directly affect the hive mind as a whole; possibly having massive repercussions on the other synapse creatures and the 'nids in general.

Two things:

1 - I believe the tyranid hive mind would be so utterly alien that any kind of psychic channeling or communication like that would be akin to a person trying to talk to a tree. The psycher would get in there, and it would be like 'what the...?'.

2 - The force of the collective hive mind would, I believe, be powerful enough to annihilate any psycher foolish enough to attempt to 'hack into their system' for lack of a better euphemism. Even the might of Tzeentch himself, in person, would have issues. I think if a large enough hive presence was to head into the Eye, it would basically serve to shut the warp in that area down to everyone except Tyranids.

But it's all really heresay. We simply don't know enough about how the Nids affect the warp.

Adept
01-06-2005, 15:58
I'd actually say the reverse. If it's simply jamming communications, then it would most likely separate the chaos gods from their worshippers, and their worshippers from certain things - like daemons. We can assume that they can punch through the jamming to summon them (as there's no tyrannid rule stopping daemon summoning, the use of psychic powers, affecting eldar wraith constructs etc), but that's going to take a lot more energy and sacrifices than normal.
If it's a gestalt consiousness, then there'll be some buttons in there that the chaos gods can press.

Well, the way I look at it is this; If it's a communications jam, then it serves to cut off the power for the chaos gods at the source. But this doesn't directly affect them. It's like cutting your or I off from food. We can survive without it for weeks. Enough time for them to punch holes in the communications jam, kick the Nids on the ground in the nuts and weaken their presence in the warp.

If it is an actual consciousness itself, then it not only cuts off the ruinous powers from their followers in the warp, but it can directly contest control of the warp itself. It can punch back, in effect. A large enough Nid presence could, I believe, force the ruinous powers into a stalemate, while the bugs on the ground clean up. Afterwards, sure the Eye might revert to an open wound between the warp and real space, and the Daemons can have it back. But all they'll be getting is rock, stripped of all useable resources. After that happens, the Nids don't even want it.

Now that I think about it, do the Nid fleets travel though warp-space or not? And if not, obviously they must travel through real space at sub-light speeds. Meaning it will be thousands of years, at least, before they hit the galactic core. I don't remember reading anything about Nids travelling through the warp, so I'm curious.

McMullet
01-06-2005, 16:57
Nids do travel through the Warp, the codex describes how they tend to drop out of Ward some distance from a planet then drift in to attack unexpectedly. If they didn't have Warp travel, then they would be no threa - as you say, it would take them thousands Meanwhile, the Imperium, with Warp-capable craft, could easily launch hit and run attacks and shadow the hive fleets with impunity, ensuring that all potential target worlds were evacuated and exterminatused before they got there.

McGonigle
01-06-2005, 17:38
What would happen if the 'Nids got hold of Pariah DNA? (as they did the other day when they ate my Culexus Assassin)

The Nids created from the DNA would be unable to communicate seen as rough and destroyed, the genetic material in question expelled and the Nid fleer would reconsume the biomatter.

Basically the Nids are natureal selection brought to a ludacrous extreame. So the plauges of Nurgle will cause a bloom in Nid Genetic variety which could consume the plauge. The General mutating effects of the warp would compliment this as well.

The war would depend on two things
1) The effect of Shadow of the warp on the eye
2) Whether Tzeentch could control the hive mind

If the Shadow of the warp cut of deamons the Nids have a field day

The interesting part would be if Tzeentch (Or possibly a major figure -Ahriman?) Gained control of the Nids. The Nids as a specis seem to embody change better than humans so not to much of a stretch. In this case the new Tzeentch Hivemind construct would be strong enough to doom the Galaxy. (If a Deamon Prince is a Marine blessed by Chaos Gods alot imagine the Hive Tyrant equivelent)

McGonigle
01-06-2005, 18:02
What would happen if the 'Nids got hold of Pariah DNA? (as they did the other day when they ate my Culexus Assassin)

The Nids created from the DNA would be unable to communicate seen as rough and destroyed, the genetic material in question expelled and the Nid fleer would reconsume the biomatter.

Basically the Nids are natureal selection brought to a ludacrous extreame. So the plauges of Nurgle will cause a bloom in Nid Genetic variety which could consume the plauge. The General mutating effects of the warp would compliment this as well.

The war would depend on two things
1) The effect of Shadow of the warp on the eye
2) Whether Tzeentch could control the hive mind

If the Shadow of the warp cut of deamons the Nids have a field day

The interesting part would be if Tzeentch (Or possibly a major figure -Ahriman?) Gained control of the Nids. The Nids as a specis seem to embody change better than humans so not to much of a stretch. In this case the new Tzeentch Hivemind construct would be strong enough to doom the Galaxy. (If a Deamon Prince is a Marine blessed by Chaos Gods alot imagine the Hive Tyrant equivelent)

alterion
01-06-2005, 18:09
yeh the major problem with all chaos v X forces is in taht the way the fluff is told it would be almost incocievable for tzeetch not to do something about it for his long term plan... the chances of a nid being able to eat a deamon are pretty thin i think: Deamons are basicallyphysical manifestations of the power of the chaos gods as such they would not really be affected by a nid coming along and choming on them a bit... as to the effect of the shadow of the warp on the eye i think that coukd get very nasty indeed.. the eye of terror is basiacally a big hole in normal space as far as i understand it... however i am not sure what the effect would be ( kicking up massive warp stroms that spring up lots of mini "eyes of terror as the big one is scatteered perhaps ? - not good imagery but you get my point./ also i think we are leaving out one element though in the eldar ... i suspect that a conflict of such scale as this would be the perect oppertunity for the eldar to attempt to regain their core worlds at the centre of the eye of terror..

Hellebore
02-06-2005, 08:02
The daemonhunters codex states under tyranid plot hooks that a reason for attacking them would be they got stuck in the warp and when they came out they were not normal, indicating that the nids CAN be affectected by the warp.

As to the shadow, it may be an unconcious thing, not done on purpose that, once realised it aided in cunsumption by halting prey comunication, was ramped up to extreme levels to make it better. It is probably just psychological warfare.

Imgine trying to explain particle physics to a novice with a choir of one hundred trillion people all talking about cauliflower behind you- it would drive you mad.

Thus the shadow is more like a hurricane during a lecture, drowning out all voices.
WHat I would like to know is if psykers can even use warp energy with the shadow in effect- could the seers of iyanden cast their powere while they were being attacked, or were they useless during the fighting?

hellebore

Isuran Greifenherz
02-06-2005, 08:16
WEll you can play a tryanid force which made a trip to the warp use the Dh rules or the the lost and the damned list.
Besides the impüerium would have problemes if a chaos infected hive fleet would attack them.

khedyarl
02-06-2005, 09:47
The crux of this argument seems to rest upon the Shadow of the Warp somehow shutting down all Chaos-warp influencing activity. I believe this may be a tad incorrect as to the exact occurance we are dealing with.

The Eye of Terror is not a simple sector the Tyranids can swoop into, shut down all warp travel and communication within, then consume. The Eye of Terror is a place where the real and the Empyrean overlap one another. The assumption is that the Shadow of the Warp will cause Daemonic summoning to cease, and any warp activity to stop. This seems.. off.

The shadow of the warp seems to be a impenetrable blockade from realspace to the warp. However, this is not the case in the Eye, where the real and the warp are actually one. The shadow may very well cause some odd effects, but this is not realspace. Daemons do not follow the same rules as we do. The rules change entirely within the warp. Nor do they have to be summoned, Daemons within the Eye are in their natural habitat, and they are ever-living. The Shadow is not the Pariah Gene.

The entire argument seems based upon the assumption that an ability of the Hive Mind is capable of combatting the will of one or more Gods of Chaos, within their own realm. There is no fluff to back this up.

Another thought: The Shadow in the Warp does not stop Psykers from using their skills, it simply makes it a tad more difficult. {The Farseers and Warlocks of Iyanden, for example.}

Verergoca
02-06-2005, 10:00
Well, on the whole tzeench vs hivemind thing, I personally think tzeench would lose in the end. This because the whole idea of tzeench focusing himself on getting into the hivemind, seems to rely on the idea that the hivemind has emotions tzeench can understand. As far as we know, nids have no emotions that can be understood by humans, and following this line, gods that thrive on "humanoid" emotions also have no idea on how to deal with it.

Its like trying to keep oneself standing in a current, which comes from all sides with different force, while only your head is above the water. Trust me, you cant:)

The Chaos gods are powerfull because they thrive on the emotions of men/ eldar/ demiurg and some more races. If the shadow blocks out these emotions by beeing between the races and the gods.....

(hope someone understands what I mean)

Eldacar
02-06-2005, 10:54
If the shadow blocks out these emotions by beeing between the races and the gods.....
...it would make no difference. Taking away those emotions is like taking away food. The Chaos Gods won't instantly die once it is gone. They will be able to last for a long time before it starts to get dangerous. And during that time, they can absolutely hammer the Tyranid threat.

Second, in the Warp, the rules don't apply. The Shadow would NOT have the effect it does in the material universe. It would create some odd side-effects, certainly, but it wouldn't block the Chaos Gods from the emotions they need.

khedyarl's post summed it up quite nicely.

Rövhalt
02-06-2005, 12:01
Are you sure? What if they can't sustain that energy, what if they must have a fresh source of souls or belief. Then shutting off their food supply will have a major affect on chaos as hole.
But whether they Eye itself will be affected? I think no, it will probably be there until the End of Times. It is as stated earlier, a place where real space and the warp become one.

Eldacar
02-06-2005, 12:13
Second, in the Warp, the rules don't apply. The Shadow would NOT have the effect it does in the material universe. It would create some odd side-effects, certainly, but it wouldn't block the Chaos Gods from the emotions they need.
So really, in any case, there would, IMO, be no difference. The Hive Mind couldn't block the Chaos Gods anyway, IMHO.