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Cheeko
22-06-2008, 00:28
this is my first army list please give me sum advise on what i can do to make i t a little better cheers!


2x herald of tzeentch
with power vortex (290) pts


2x herald of tzeentch in chariots
with master of sorc (410) pts


15x bloodletters
f/c (210) pts


15x bloodletters
f/c (210) pts

10x horrors
with icon of sorc (147) pts

10x horrors
with icon of sorc (147) pts

10x horrors
with icon of sorc (147) pts

5x furies (60) pts

3x bloodcrushers (230) pts
with bloodreaper

5x screamers (150)pts

total (2001) pts

what do you think any suggestions would be more than welcome!
cheeko

sextantchoir
22-06-2008, 00:34
um- you have to buy a standard bearer to give horror units icons dont you?

blackjack
22-06-2008, 00:43
yes you do. So thats 12 more pts per horror squad.

I like your list. The only major changes I would make would be to make 2 of your chariot sorcs master of sorc instead of power vortex. If you are of the school that mastery of sorc gives you access to the entire tz lore then drop power vortex off all the heralds in favor of mastery. The lore of tz has a 3+ spell that gives you extra power dice, cast that spell first for every herald you will have more dice then you know what to do with and if they are dispelled your oppoenent will be serously depleted in his dispell dice.

Cheeko
22-06-2008, 00:49
i didnt think of that you are a genius!!!!!!!

sorry mate bit confused with what you mean when you said if your in the school that mastery of sorc gives you access to the entire tz lore.

DaiyQueen
22-06-2008, 02:02
What he is talking about is the gift 'Master of Sorcery'. Some people believe by choosing it they are allowed to then keep the Lore of Tzeentch, and know all of its spells. Other people believe that you only know all the spells from your chosen Lore if you choose one of the other Lores from the Rulebook.
Hope that clears it up.

ThrowN
22-06-2008, 10:07
The point cost for the Horrorunits is already right, the bannerbearer simply isn't mentioned.
I don't think you need the Bloodreaper in the Crusher unit, it's only 1 more attack for a model that already has 4. But thats just my 2cent.

The Master of Sorcery issue needs to dealt with in a FAQ. It's not the possible acces to the whole Lore of Tzeentch itself, its the guaranteed Power Dice generating spell that would make this gift so powerfull.

veilwalker
22-06-2008, 14:35
How is it guaranteed? It is still 3+ so it can fail and it can be dispelled. It might be overpowered if it allowed you access to any lore of magic, including race specific ones, but it does not so it seems fine to give a Tzeentch Herald full access to the lore, just like a LoC has full access to Tzeentch spells.

If the gift wasn't specifically against, I would argue that a LoC should keep access to Lore of Tzeentch and another Lore if given the master of sorcery gift. That to me would be a true master of sorcery.

atsc83
22-06-2008, 18:00
No Lord of Change? Why would you choose not to have possibly the cheesiest greater demon on ur list? lol I can understand if u do so for fluff reasons, but if u wanna go magic heavy its a good idea to have one lvl 4 caster.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
22-06-2008, 20:28
Lord of Change is great, but I don't think any of the G-Daemons are, naturally, "Cheesy" as they do cost a bundle of points as is.

The closest one to "Cheesy" is probably a Bloodthirster with Immortal Fury, Firestorm Blade, and Obsidian Armor, mostly because you can fly that thing into almost any unit in the game, head-on in most cases, and expect to break them...or maybe lose by 1 ...which should not trouble you on Instability with Leadership-9, base, all that much.

Many armies cannot handle something like that charging into most of their regiments//skirmishers//artillery, etc. on Turn-2 *Turn-1, depending on how far up the enemy army has moved, if they won first turn against the Daemons*

Also, to Thrown: I don't think it makes any sense to suggest that a Tzeentch Herald...a being pulsing with Raw Magical Ability....which is a "Master of Sorcery", cannot "Master" his OWN LORE !

That's crazy. A Vampire can take Forbidden Lore for the same cost and know ALL spells from EITHER the Lore of Vampires (an awesome Lore, esp. in a VC army with Van Hel's, Invo-Spam, etc.), OR any Lore from the Rulebook.

The idea that a Magical Daemon Wizard, taking essentially the same power as Forbidden Lore, cannot gain the same benefit is hard to fathom. It also makes no sense from a fluff-perspective either. You are a Daemon that has lived for 50,000 years. You are now a MASTER of Sorcery !! (dramatic music plays in the background)....you now know all spells from the Lore of Fire !

Errr...forget about knowing all the spells from your OWN Lore though....that's beyond your capabilities. Maybe in another 50,000 years. . . . :eyebrows:

:rolleyes:

klstrider28
22-06-2008, 21:50
Also, to Thrown: I don't think it makes any sense to suggest that a Tzeentch Herald...a being pulsing with Raw Magical Ability....which is a "Master of Sorcery", cannot "Master" his OWN LORE !

That's crazy. A Vampire can take Forbidden Lore for the same cost and know ALL spells from EITHER the Lore of Vampires (an awesome Lore, esp. in a VC army with Van Hel's, Invo-Spam, etc.), OR any Lore from the Rulebook.

The idea that a Magical Daemon Wizard, taking essentially the same power as Forbidden Lore, cannot gain the same benefit is hard to fathom. It also makes no sense from a fluff-perspective either. You are a Daemon that has lived for 50,000 years. You are now a MASTER of Sorcery !! (dramatic music plays in the background)....you now know all spells from the Lore of Fire !

Errr...forget about knowing all the spells from your OWN Lore though....that's beyond your capabilities. Maybe in another 50,000 years. . . . :eyebrows:

:rolleyes:

Plus try to take into account how weird it is that they have to roll on a miscast table tailored by their realms laws. Chaos is supposed to be the winds of magic. How can they screw it up? I can just imagine the taloned hand grabbing the daemon and giving it an inter-dimensional spanking.

"NO no little herald it's naptime"

W A L 5 H Y
22-06-2008, 21:53
chosen your very strange you know and how is the bloodthirster "cheesy" wb

OldMaster
22-06-2008, 22:14
Hey cheeko still trying to work out how to use your deamons???? lol u gotta beat joes wood elves!!! lol um yh guys did he mension that this army list gives him 17 power dice garanteed lol iv seen it in battle, should of seen the look on his opponents face!!!!

Please, don't get off topic.

Yeah, deamons are powerful. Major drawback is the amount of metal in the army.

"Cheesy" means too powerful and not fun to play with. I've never had my fun spoilt when playing my Dark Insanity build, so... :)

Loopstah
22-06-2008, 22:32
Also, to Thrown: I don't think it makes any sense to suggest that a Tzeentch Herald...a being pulsing with Raw Magical Ability....which is a "Master of Sorcery", cannot "Master" his OWN LORE !

That's crazy. A Vampire can take Forbidden Lore for the same cost and know ALL spells from EITHER the Lore of Vampires (an awesome Lore, esp. in a VC army with Van Hel's, Invo-Spam, etc.), OR any Lore from the Rulebook.


Except Forbidden Lore provides the choice between all the spells in Lore of the Vampires or all the spells in any Lore in the BRB.

Master of Sorcery does not provide a choice between all the spells in Lore of Tzeentch or all the spells in any Lore in the BRB, only for those in the BRB. It even states "instead of it's normal lore".

It's pretty clear that you can't pick the Lore of Tzeentch when using Master of Sorcery.

ThrowN
22-06-2008, 23:10
@ Fulgrims Chosen: Don't get me wrong, the slowly rising Tzeentch part of my Demon army does also include a Tzeentch Herald with MoS to allow him to cast Boon of Tzeentch and therefore increase his damge potential a lot.
However I don't think the wording is so clear that my opponents couldn't start debates about it. And 1. I don't like rule arguing during my games and 2. I could absolutely understand anyone facing (and complaining about) this combination, simply beacause it grants an already very magic heavy army even more powerdices. And other army pay a bit more for +1/+2 Powerdice items. With this interpretation MoS becomes a must-have on any Herald, while Power Vortex would only be useful for the Lord of Change. And I'm not too sure that this was the author's intention.
Also your reference to the Vampire power ignores the fact that the Vampire will get more casting options, but he still doesn't get more actual casting power.
A simple FAQ could (and probably will) clear things up.
Until then I wouldn't use MoS multiple times in a list (so my comment was aimed at blackjack's suggestion to replace PV with MoS for a total of 4xMoS). At least not with the intention to know all Tzeentch spells.

Btw, Fluff isn't the best way to argue about rules. And iirc, the demon armybooks clearly states that Tzeentch doesn't share all of his knowledge with any of his demons and that the Horrors are far away from the knowledge (and intelligence) of a Lord of Change.

Embalmed
23-06-2008, 13:18
it grants an already very magic heavy army even more powerdices. And other army pay a bit more for +1/+2 Powerdice items. With this interpretation MoS becomes a must-have on any Herald, while Power Vortex would only be useful for the Lord of Change. And I'm not too sure that this was the author's intention.


You make it sound like you don't even have to cast the spell lol.

There is a big difference between getting powerdice and having to cast a spell to get powerdice and you seem to ignore that completely. To wit: 33% of the time the spell fails, costing you a spell die instead of giving you any.

The way I read the MoS I figured it works for Tzeench spells as well, there was nothing in the wording that excluded it, I seem to remember the wording being along the lines of "may choose any list from BRB instead of of Tz. The character knows all spells from the chosen list" and I figure if the character chooses to keep the Tz list then that is the chosen list, but true it is not 100% clear.

However I would have expected them to write "...if he does choose another list, then he will know all spells from that list" if that was their intention.

Just my reasoning.

Back to topic: I think the army looks good, good punch and very strong magic. A little slower and less resilient than it needs to be but I don't think this will be a big problem. It looks a bit like the one I'm thinking of putting together :) Personally I would put beasts of slaanesh in there instead of 'crushers for that crazy speed ouflanking.

Armilthuan
23-06-2008, 14:45
It would like to say to you to calm down, but I leave that to a mod.

The Master of Magic description says: The Daemon can choose any lore instead of...

Now this is highly debatable to it's meaning as it comes down to what you think 'can' represents: may or must?

I see it as The Daemon may choose any lore instead of...

theunwantedbeing
23-06-2008, 15:00
It says the daemon may choose any of the normal lores instead of it's own lore.
It then states the daemon knows all the spells of whatever lore it chooses.

Seems like you can "choose" to take the lore of tzeentch and forgo the option to take all of another lore while still knowing all the tzeentch spells.

Just not worded that well, that's all.
Decent list though, it being a point over is an issue though.
Ditch the bloodreaper and you can get yourself an extra model somewhere else to keep yourself under 2k.

I'de also be tempted to make the 2 units of bloodletters into a single very large unit of 30 bloodletters.
This give's you an extra few point's to spend which could be used to make one of your horror's a battle standard bearer.

lparigi34
23-06-2008, 15:01
IMHO, not being a native English speeaker, though, CAN indicates possibility, not obligation. like in:

...I can date any ugly girl I want to...

Gosh I hope I'm not forced too.

Btw, the example sucks, but could not come with any better.

Cheeko
23-06-2008, 15:55
yeah i think you are right beasts of slaanesh are fast and they are pretty tough i didnt realize i could cause so much of a debate lol (thats a reply to embalmed)

Dark_Mage99
23-06-2008, 18:41
I agree with unwanted. The wording means that it has a choice of whether to take another Lore or keep it's own. It then says that, whichever one it goes for, it gets all the spells.

Brimstone
23-06-2008, 19:06
What do u men get off topic Cheeko is my mate you little freak!

First of all please stay on topic, second don't insult other members of the forum in future please.

The Warseer Inquisition