PDA

View Full Version : 5th Pseudotactia. Eldar



ScytheSwathe
22-06-2008, 11:57
Ok, theres been much debate over how eldar will fare, and now the true rules seem to be seeping out. I personally think eldar will be better than ever in the next ed, and am glad to see some of the 'point and click' style tactics (tri-falc, flying circus,...) changing. So heres a Pseudo-tactica to see whats what as far as we know so far.
NOTE some of this is quite old as I started writing it a while ago. If you see anything which needs changing let me know.
Debates welcomed.
Whining not.

HQ choices.
Eldar HQ choices have always been support units, and i think 5th will only strengthen this role.

Autarch. Builds seem unlikely to change. With new missions and the ability to leave things in reserve if you feel like it, i gather that the +1 to reserves may play a much larger role, especially in conjunction with Scorps (outflanking) and CC units left in reserve for counter charges in gunline eldar. Taking 2 makes an all infiltrating army possible. Turning up on turn 2 on a 2+ with Pathfinders Scorps, Swooping hawks or Warp spiders, and War walkers. All in the enemy deployment zone will be good for laughs.

Farseer. Wow. 1st consideration is no more instant death from perils, and due to inv. saves being taken, makes it even harder to even suffer one wound. New targets for guide, doom, fortune, but ill get to those later.

Eldrad. As uber like now but...
Perils are a joke to him with a 3+ save
Divination when you set up first? Amazing

Warlocks. I like. Destructor will counter the en-masse cover saves we seem to be looking at, Conceal will probably become less popular as people get more used to the abundance of natural cover. Embolden still fairly redundant, if youre relying on guardians to hold their ground, youve probably got an avatar already. Enhance i think will gradually overcome the conceal, especially on Storm guard.

Avatar. Fearless bubble. With combat modifyers this will be more useful. Other than that little change.

Phoenix lords, Dont really use them, but i think the advantages of the standard HQ choices will make them more redundant.

ELITE

Scorpions. Nice. Run will help these fellows, but not a vast ammount, as they can infiltrate anyway. Our only short range infiltrators, will benefit alot from the new outflank. Outflanking like this will remove the chance of fortuning them though, as you wont be able to take the seer with you. Always liked my 3+ rerollables...

Fire dragons. Not my favourite unit, i find them a bit too much of a 1 hit wonder. The fact that they are AP1 will only make them better at what they do though.

Wraithguard. Another massive boost! run means they can actually get into the fight, take 10 as a troop for the toughest objective holders around! Same old tactics envisioned, Fortune and Conceal/enhance making them very resiliant.

Banshees. Much unchanged, combine with doom for muchos pain. Acrobatic a must, for +1A when charged, at only 5 pts.

Quins. Right. With counter coming in, 6 in a falcon will be fairly useless, as youll just get mobbed, rending nerf makes them fairer all told. Im not going to consider dooming to reroll any non-rends as I consider it too beardy, but definately a target for doom anyway. Kindof a halfway house between Scorps and Banshees, with the extra A, extra S. Power weapon on a 6 is all rending amounts to. Still a great counter unit, should be used to protect your gunlines rather than a ‘take all’ offensive unit, also bigger units needed to combat the counter charge bit. Hit and run now has some risk, (I test) Risk of losing the shadowseer (for veil and plasma grenades) due to new targeting. All just makes them less of an overly reliable no-brainer. I can imagine people dumping bigger squads in WS now, hrmph, well at least its less reliable than falcs.

Wave Serpent. I dont really see the new defensive weapons bothering this too much, as it only really drops the second Shuricannon, SMF Hurts a bit, but with a bit of care, it shouldnt cause too much pain, cant remember the mathhammer, but its similar in efficiency to current SMF isnt it? One thread on here suggested that itll be better than the falcon for transport as the energy field combined with new SMF works better than holos with new SMF.


TROOPS
The important bit. All useful for objective taking.

Avengers. Very similar roles to present. With CC modifiers, the defensive build may be less viable, then again, it may be more necessary. Also likely to become the premier objective holders in most armies. especially from within tough Eldar transports

Rangers. AKA pathfinders. Most improved unit? Hitting on BS is the only problem, and only then until they get guided. Add rend for less enemy armour saves, better cover all over the place, pretty much guaranteeing 2+ saves for you, combined with the ability to hold objectives, Ability to outflank, which may not be very useful, but not bad, Scout move will be awesome, especially as you can set up first, guarantee the first turn at the cost of opponent knowing where you’ve set up, then move back into LOS of juicy targets. Did I mention pinning on top of all this...

Guardians. Storm guardians can become very painful with the addition of counter charge response, mob tactics, combined with enhance for I5 and WS4 should make them very useful. Not to mention avatar backup.
Defenders I see as much the same.

Jetbikes. Assault move combined with giving 4+ cover to units behind makes them portable cover. Move out of the way, shoot with reapers, skimmers etc, move back in assault phase to give them cover. Same goes for pathfinders, if for some reason they find themselves out of cover, they can get 2+ sat in the open through this technique. Add the current harassment tactics/ shoot and scoot they will see a lot more action, at least by me.

FAST ATACK

Shining Spears. Obviously comparable to powerfist squads, but never got +1A for extra hand weapon to begin with. I think however that a 5 man squad will be hard pushed to deal with the new counter assault move.

Spiders. TLOS will be a problem, and less good at anti armour, but only because all tanks will be harder. Still effective harrassment troops

Swooping Hawks. Haywire is now nothing like as good, as glancing cannot kill, however as I see more hoarde armies coming in, there should be more use for the lasblasters/sunrifle.

Vypers. Ouch, like they needed the nerf, the lack of movement on vehicles, combined with S4 defensive weapons will make them rarer than ever.

ScytheSwathe
22-06-2008, 11:59
HEAVY SUPPORT

Support Weapons. Ive never found a place for them to begin with. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
I play hardly a single game without Shadow Weavers. Vibro-cannons are a bit better for anti-tank, but glancing hits no longer destroy vehicles, so D-Cannons will be better suited for that.
I've found that Support Weapons have a similar psychological effect to the SM Whirlwind. The opponent will focus on taking them out, which exposes his units to danger. Why close the distance yourself when you opponent will do it for you? Shadow Weavers may not be the most powerful heavy support, but they're great for baiting enemy squads into your firing lines.
D-cannons are now the cheapest ass-kickers in the game. 3 models can easily kill an entire unit of anything with the new touchy-killy template rules.

Reapers. Much the same as far as I can see. Tempest launcher might be fun, but then it always was. Have always had the problem of being static, but Jetbike cover could prove useful, combined with fortune

Wraithlord. I already use mine as an assault wraithlord with a Shuricannon and sword. It draws fire like nothing else. Run will help. I might even drop the shuricannon bringing it to only 100pts. Use with harlies to benefit from shadowseer as a psyker, and to force the enemy to shoot at the S10 monsterous creature threat. Can also tarpit units which would otherwise be Shooting the Harlies which sweeping advance.
The Antitank variant will probably still be more popular though.

Warwalkers. Scout move means they can turn up on flanks, shooting the side armour of tanks, 4+ cover all over the place. These guys just got better. Although immobilizing counting as destroyed wont help. No need for Spirit stones either (not that they ever were useful) Common loadouts will likely be Scatter lasers, and now, introducing EML.

Falcon. No longer invincible. No doubt people will still complain though. They are now more where they should be in my opinion. Use cover for 4+ save, fortuned if you want to. These are long range sniper tanks now, with an emergency transport capacity if things get hairy. EML will be a good choice as you can move and shoot with it if you go for the blast. Again useful in an emergency if you need to move from cover. Otherwise 3 S10 shots. Defensive weapon nerf only matters if you move. If youre in cover, you may not need to. Upgrades shouldn’t change, except no more vectored engines.

Fire Prism. See above. No worries about the ‘Defensive weapon nerf’ Less effective at antitank, but still worth taking a brace in my opinion. Scares the S*** out of marines. Will be very good vs hordes. Always fun and very eldary to combine beams.

THE END

Francis29
22-06-2008, 12:09
Spiders. Good as ever, nothing much more to say



how are warp spiders useful atm? i have never used warp spiders and never intend to unless shown how they can be useful.

the only way i have thought of using them is as last minute snatch squads but now they can't even do that as only troops can hold objectives.

Charax
22-06-2008, 12:15
they can, however, *contest* objectives.

Skyth
22-06-2008, 13:59
One tactic that might be happening is the 3 Falcon w/5-6 Avengers plus farseer (For fortune). Run around then tankshock last turn off the objective. If it isn't actually the last turn, then they can switch places

ScytheSwathe
22-06-2008, 14:48
Warp spiders make grat harrassment troops, a squad of 8 or so, with exarch can pump out a respectable 18 S6 shots, use the assault jump to get out of LOS or assault range. Thinking about it this will be less viable due to new LOS, but still a nice tactic. Deepstriking them is considered unneccessary, due to the fact that they can move so fast anyway. I like withdraw as a plan B, but try to keep them out of assault if you can.

Not sure about Falcs with Avengers particularly, i can see your point, but i think wave serpents might be more useful as, by mathhammer the energy field is better than holos once you move fast (can be bothered to find the thread, but its here somewhere)

ragnarok14
22-06-2008, 16:01
speed of Eldar vehicles + new ramming rules + any unit (i.e. vehicles) being able to 'contest' objectives I think we'll be seeing more vehicles than before.

EDIT: actually thinking about it, seeing as vypers are nice cheap/fast vehicles they just became very nice versatile game winners I think.

Mojaco
22-06-2008, 16:14
Warp Spiders did lose out a bit though. In 4th they were nearly impossible to keep up with, but now standing behind forests and such no longer over 100% protection the spiders will have a hard time hiding and preventing return hits.

Not that they're bad though :)

For Francis29, I suggest you proxy them at least once. Their strength 6 weaponry combined with their speed means there is very little on the table they can't harress or flat out destroy. Best against high toughness/bad save (like C:Daemons) and speeders, but also very suitable for taking out Marines and tanks (who aren't av14 all round).

Megad00mer
22-06-2008, 18:11
Will Eldar Jetbikes be able to capture objectives since they're Troops? I can see that being very effective for last turn objective stealing/contesting.

ragnarok14
23-06-2008, 01:51
Will Eldar Jetbikes be able to capture objectives since they're Troops? I can see that being very effective for last turn objective stealing/contesting.

Yes they can, its any troop choices that are not vehicles/swarms that can capture.

Revliss
23-06-2008, 02:13
how are warp spiders useful atm? i have never used warp spiders and never intend to unless shown how they can be useful.

the only way i have thought of using them is as last minute snatch squads but now they can't even do that as only troops can hold objectives.

well i been using them on taking out marines, and being thaken out by them too(chaos). they jump in front of you shoot then jump away form site. all i can say Spiders are annoying, you leave them alone they shoot you like crazy, you go after them you leaft an opening in your army, to get hit by some thing big and painful.

Starchild
23-06-2008, 02:32
Support Weapons. Ive never found a place for them to begin with. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

I play hardly a single game without Shadow Weavers. They share many of the same advantages as Warp Spiders, oddly enough-- namely the ability to drop S6 firepower while avoiding retaliation. It also helps in long range shooting vs. Tau, Imperial Guard, or even Space Marines to some extent.

With the new blast rules, they lose quite a bit of accuracy, but that's not a problem if your opponent is Orks or Imperial Guard. Too, they get a bit of boost with the new pinning rules-- if you cause enough casualties on a good hit, you can pretty much count on the target being pinned. :evilgrin:

Vibro-cannons are a bit better for anti-tank, but glancing hits no longer destroy vehicles, so D-Cannons will be better suited for that.

I've found that Support Weapons have a similar psychological effect to the SM Whirlwind. The opponent will focus on taking them out, which exposes his units to danger. Why close the distance yourself when you opponent will do it for you? Shadow Weavers may not be the most powerful heavy support, but they're great for baiting enemy squads into your firing lines. :cool:

Varath- Lord Impaler
23-06-2008, 02:56
Looking through the 5th book, Hit and Run now goes thus:

At the end of the assault phase, if you want to break, make an initiative test. If you pass you may move in 3D6 (not a typo) in ANY direction you wish. Enemy unit consolidates. Cannot be used to come in contact with the enemy.

Infiltrating units buying a Dedicated transport give it the ability to outflank, scouting units buying a dedicated transport can make it scout.

EldarExarch
23-06-2008, 03:44
Just a thought, under the new rules for ramming, Vypers just became 50 point guided cruise missles. At +1 strength for every 3 inches moved, all you've got to do is move 15 inches and a 50 point unit just scored a penetrating hit on a Land Raider.

Varath- Lord Impaler
23-06-2008, 03:57
Just a thought, under the new rules for ramming, Vypers just became 50 point guided cruise missles. At +1 strength for every 3 inches moved, all you've got to do is move 15 inches and a 50 point unit just scored a penetrating hit on a Land Raider.

Hmm? thats S5..thats not a penetrating hit on a land raider...

Kirasu
23-06-2008, 04:24
Left out a huge unit

Eldrad... Awesome in 4th, even better in 5th.. Perils are a joke to him with a 3+ save and now can fortune vehicles behind cover, also double fortune on units who get a cover save in general is amazing.. Without a FAQ he can do it inside a vehicle as well

Divination when you set up first? Amazing

All in all he's still just as godly as before.. keep him with a unit tho!

EldarExarch
23-06-2008, 04:37
Hmm? thats S5..thats not a penetrating hit on a land raider...

Sorry. Should have explained myself better. Armor value 10 = strength 10, armor 12 = strength 12, and so on. So a Vyper moving 15 inches gets a +5 strength for a total of 15. Hence my comment about penetrating a Land Raider.

Commissar_Sven
23-06-2008, 04:56
Sorry. Should have explained myself better. Armor value 10 = strength 10, armor 12 = strength 12, and so on. So a Vyper moving 15 inches gets a +5 strength for a total of 15. Hence my comment about penetrating a Land Raider.

Thats not how it works. The strength of the hit is equal to the number of inches you moved divided by three +1 if you are a tank and an additional +1 for every point of armour you have above 10.

Varath- Lord Impaler
23-06-2008, 05:01
Thank you Commissar_Sven :)

andronicus83
23-06-2008, 05:27
I agree with Warp Spiders being useful.

neophryte
23-06-2008, 05:34
also double fortune on units who get a cover save in general is amazing.. Without a FAQ he can do it inside a vehicle as well


Double fortune on a unit does nothing as you can not reroll a reroll. However, eldrad is dead hard. A great vehicle killer - especially dreadnoughts, defilers and the like.

EldarExarch
23-06-2008, 05:58
Thats not how it works. The strength of the hit is equal to the number of inches you moved divided by three +1 if you are a tank and an additional +1 for every point of armour you have above 10.

I'm sorry and I'm not saying you're wrong, but by your math a Land Raider moving a full 12 inches only has a possible ramming strength of 9.

Move 12 divided by 3 = +4
Tank = +1
Armor over 10 = +4

This makes no sense to me at all, but I'm willing to admit that I may have read the rule wrong. So I'll just have to wait until I've got my copy of the rules to make sure I get it right.

ragnarok14
23-06-2008, 06:21
How fast can you get a vyper going with star engines?

And with the landraider ramming, is it every point of armour above 10 all the way round (i.e. +12 on a landraider) or just on the side that rams?

scarletsquig
23-06-2008, 06:24
How fast can you get a vyper going with star engines?

36 inches... strength 12. :D

N0-1_H3r3
23-06-2008, 06:32
36 inches... strength 12. :D
Of course, lacking the ability to tank shock, the Vyper can't ram in the first place...

Varath- Lord Impaler
23-06-2008, 06:40
Of course, lacking the ability to tank shock, the Vyper can't ram in the first place...

Yes it can. Its a ramming move, not a tank shock.

ragnarok14
23-06-2008, 06:57
I think vypers not having the tank special rule might actually mean they can't ram, if so, there goes what could have been their most useful feature in 5th.

EDIT: though being able to move 36" on the last turn to contest/deny opponents objectives on the last turn isnt bad, cheesy, but useful.

N0-1_H3r3
23-06-2008, 07:16
Yes it can. Its a ramming move, not a tank shock.
They can't do those either, though I still personally interpret Ramming as a form of tank shock, given that the rules say that ramming is a form of tank shock.

Varath- Lord Impaler
23-06-2008, 07:23
They can't do those either, though I still personally interpret Ramming as a form of tank shock, given that the rules say that ramming is a form of tank

I just quickly glanced at the rules then *from the book, not a PDF* and i dont see anything saying that

Hoagiex
23-06-2008, 09:27
HEAVY SUPPORT
Support Weapons. Ive never found a place for them to begin with. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

D-cannons are now the cheapest ass-kickers in the game. 3 models can easily kill an entire unit of anything with the new touchy-killy template rules.


Other thoughts:

- Prisms are now static, terrain hugging, long range support basically switching between the predator annihilator- and whirlwind-role. I'm taking off the holofields and shurican cannons and keeping them far away and immobile.

- Wave serpents are now one-hit-wonders, since you move flat out for one turn, drop your models and then proceed to fall back behind cover and provide fire support with the shurican cannon and missle launcher.... that is if you haven't died yet....

- Wraithguard may seem the obvious choice now, but don't forget the price on 10 models with a concealing warlock and fortuning farseer.... Those points are buying the enemy 3 vindicators/3 defiles/2 monoliths/3 basilisks/etc.... which will make short work out of those wraithguard in one to two turns... even with their rerollable 5+ save.... not to mention anything with any decent CC power running into them.... but they are way more viable now, then ever.

- rangers, bikes, guardians, DA's are all very nice troop choices and all of them just got better... no complaints here ;)

ScytheSwathe
23-06-2008, 11:54
Star engines are FAQed into the shooting phase. So useless for ramming.
http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/40k/Eldar.pdf

Battle-Brother Wags
23-06-2008, 12:26
I'm sorry and I'm not saying you're wrong, but by your math a Land Raider moving a full 12 inches only has a possible ramming strength of 9.

Move 12 divided by 3 = +4
Tank = +1
Armor over 10 = +4

This makes no sense to me at all, but I'm willing to admit that I may have read the rule wrong. So I'll just have to wait until I've got my copy of the rules to make sure I get it right.

Yep, the landraider causes a strength 9 hit on whatever the target is then you add D6 for armor penetration and can possibly glance AV15 (if it existed) and obviously penetrate anything with lesser armor. It would basically be like a lascannon hit. I'm not sure what doesn't make sense on that. Did you want vehicle ramming to be even more effective than standard anti-tank shooting? "Ok, fellas! Strip all the guns off, we don't need them! Ramming speed!"

ragnarok14
23-06-2008, 12:30
except that the landraider would also take a strength 9 hit as well, dont get that with a lascannon.

Varath- Lord Impaler
23-06-2008, 12:42
except that the landraider would also take a strength 9 hit as well, dont get that with a lascannon.

Actually it will only take a Strength 5 hit :P

Kirasu
23-06-2008, 12:50
I didnt mean double fortune on the same unit.. I meant he can use fortune twice unlike other farseers

Visago
23-06-2008, 14:08
I just quickly glanced at the rules then *from the book, not a PDF* and i dont see anything saying that

In the book the tank shock rules are listed under the section for Tanks. After tank shock it continues into the ramming rules, still under the section for Tanks. General vehicle rules are listed prior to the Tank specific section.

I had a chance to look through the 5th edition rule book over the weekend since my game store got an advance copy. Some of the orc players were thinking of doing the same thing with their trukks as discussed for our vypers. No dice though since trukks don't count as tanks either...

Battle-Brother Wags
23-06-2008, 14:15
If non-tanks cannot ram, doesn't that make the +1 damage for being a tank kinda redundant? I mean, it's like, "If the vehicle making the ramming move is a tank, add 1 to the strength . . ." Um, duh. If only tanks are allowed to ram, then whats the point? Just say the ramming vehicle has a strength of one plus speed plus armor, etc . . .

Visago
23-06-2008, 14:41
If non-tanks cannot ram, doesn't that make the +1 damage for being a tank kinda redundant? I mean, it's like, "If the vehicle making the ramming move is a tank, add 1 to the strength . . ." Um, duh. If only tanks are allowed to ram, then whats the point? Just say the ramming vehicle has a strength of one plus speed plus armor, etc . . .

You use the same chart for the vehicle being rammed I believe. So non-tank vehicles would also use that chart when they get hit. Such as ramming orc trukks with a rhino (thats kind of a funny visual now that I think of it).

Poseidal
23-06-2008, 14:55
If non-tanks cannot ram, doesn't that make the +1 damage for being a tank kinda redundant? I mean, it's like, "If the vehicle making the ramming move is a tank, add 1 to the strength . . ." Um, duh. If only tanks are allowed to ram, then whats the point? Just say the ramming vehicle has a strength of one plus speed plus armor, etc . . .

When a tank rams, it recieves a hit back based on what it was ramming as if the other vehicle rammed it the same distance. If they had the same armour value and one being rammed was not a tank then the one that is not a tank is hit with a hit 1 point of strength higher.

Also, although this is debated, there are some vehicle upgrades that allow vehicles that aren't tanks to tank shock. If (as is argued) that ramming is a sort of tank shock (if it is mentioned that it is a type of tank shock in the final release of the rules) then it is possible for a non-tank vehicle to ram and it will not get the +1S for being a tank.

suprememidgetoverlord
23-06-2008, 15:50
I Don't plan on ramming my expensive tanks anyways, but tank shocking on last turn, and letting my dire avengers do the capturing, should be a fun thing to do.

I think you have to be within 3 inches of objectives to capture it, what better way to get one but by moving the enemy out of the way.

I witnessed a few games with 5th this week-end, and the new rules are really interesting.

Troops only scoring is going to need adapting to, both games, all troop choices got shot to the last man, with games ending in a draw...

And markerlights removing cover saves on pathfinders is just plain nasty! Jetbikes hiding until last turn or using JSJ all game doesnt make for fun games, but is a viable tactic.

Going to upgrade my wraithguard from 5 to 10... Anyone tried to see how realy hard they are?

Murphys Avatar
23-06-2008, 16:23
I have tried the 10 man squad with Warlock and farseer. It comes in at around a third of your army cost and to be honest didnt perform as they were slow. Even with the run rules i dont think they will be effective as there are still many things that splat em or force enough saves (even rerolled ones) to lose a couple. Your enemy concentrates on em. After a few rounds the warlock and farseer will start taking hits as well. They also hardly got to shoot as it is not hard to stay out of their range making them near pointless and a little boring.

Maybe it was just my dice rolling but will def not be using them.