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Akuma
22-06-2008, 13:11
10 New RxB from DE - Furies Chargeing them - Thay S&S - do thay get 10 shots or can normaly Multishot so can get 20 ? ( it poped up in rumours thread )

DeathlessDraich
22-06-2008, 13:31
You can choose either to S&S although I seem to remember that probability favours not doing so if there are too many shooting penalties.

theunwantedbeing
22-06-2008, 13:32
Some say yes, others say no.
Just ask your opponent if they think you should be able to or not.

Akuma
22-06-2008, 13:37
unwanted - so it is not clear ? ( guess something for the DE FAQ then ) - And as a side note - Skirmishers charging anything - are -1 from beeing skirmishers ( furies , harpies ) is cumulative with -1 from stand and shoot or the -1 from S&S replaces all others modifiers ? ( what about long range ? - I charge you from outside short range - do you get -1 for S&S and another -1 for shooting at long range ? )

DeathlessDraich
22-06-2008, 13:45
1) The S&S modifier is cumulative.

2) There is no reason why multiple shots cannot be used to S&S. - no restrictions on pg 55 or the Shooting chapter for S&S.
Some players dispute this is because of the way some missile weapons are described in the Empire book but I don't think it has any bearing to this question.

Griefbringer
22-06-2008, 15:14
2) There is no reason why multiple shots cannot be used to S&S. - no restrictions on pg 55 or the Shooting chapter for S&S.


I think the interpretation of no multiple shot for S&S is due to the first sentence in the description of multiple shot in page 55:

"Some missile weapons enable their users to shoot several times in each shooting phase - known as multiple shot."

(The rest of the section then makes no reference to shooting phase.)

So by RAW it could possibly be argued that the multiple shot only works in shooting phases, and not in movement phases (when S&S is resolved). I think it is just a case of poorly chosen wording.

semersonp
22-06-2008, 17:09
de for example...

pg 22 of the de army book...

(description of the users, the magazine of bolts, hail of shots, etc)

max range: 24"
strength: 3
rules: 2x multiple shots

all pretty straightforward...

pg 55 of the BfSP BRB...

'multiple shots'

... the # of times the weapon can fire is given as part of its description... (see above... "rules: 2x multiple shots")...

... these weapons can either fire once without penalty, or as many times as indicated in their rules with an additional -1 to hit penalty...

then it goes on to describe how all troops in the unit must fire the same way (all multi or all single shot)...

and just in case one is still not assured that all is kosher in terms of selecting multi or single shot for a s+s reaction... read pg 19 of the BfSP BRB...

'stand and shoot'

1/2 range, etc...

... this shooting is worked out just before moving chargers, during the move chargers part of the movement phase - refer to the Shooting section for rules governing missile weapons (see page 25)...

so there you have it...

multishot capable ranged units can select multishot if they are in a stand and shoot situation...


:)

Lord Aries
22-06-2008, 17:39
there is a difference between "flavor text" and binding rules. The comment about them shooting in the shooting phase is not meant as a limiter but an example of how they are used. Taking sections out of context like that and i can make the rules say whatever i want.

Malagant
22-06-2008, 17:41
Repeating what a previous poster said, since it was ignored: The rules for Multiple Shot weapons on page 55 of BRB says, "Some missile weapons enable their users to shoot several times in each shooting phase."

Stand & Shoot is not resolved during the shooting phase...



there is a difference between "flavor text" and binding rules. The comment about them shooting in the shooting phase is not meant as a limiter but an example of how they are used. Taking sections out of context like that and i can make the rules say whatever i want.

Who gets to decide what is "flavor text" and what is "binding rule"? Seems to me that describing the rule as "an example of how they are used" is not only taking it out of context, but making giant assumptions about intent.

When interpreting rules, there is no room for assumption about intent. It is what is written, and what is written is that it works in the shooting phase.

Akuma
22-06-2008, 17:48
Oh yeah - I hit the spot - Akuma makes the mark ( does wild dance :D )

So lord Airies - YES It Can

Malagant - NO thay cannot

Huzzah (waiting for another replys )

Malagant
22-06-2008, 17:51
I think all those would be cumulative...so Stand & Shoot against charging skirmishers at long range would be -3. :cries:


unwanted - so it is not clear ? ( guess something for the DE FAQ then ) - And as a side note - Skirmishers charging anything - are -1 from beeing skirmishers ( furies , harpies ) is cumulative with -1 from stand and shoot or the -1 from S&S replaces all others modifiers ? ( what about long range ? - I charge you from outside short range - do you get -1 for S&S and another -1 for shooting at long range ? )

Faustburg
22-06-2008, 17:58
All are cumlative, yes.

By the reasoning that it says "in each shooting phase" meaning no multi stand and shoot, there will be no stand and shoot what so ever, as altough the SS rule exists, the rules for ranged weapons say they are used in your shooting phase...

Multi-shots is obviously allowed, but you will have to do the math so see if it is worth it (mostly is)


I do however fully agree with Malagant that it is not a case of "flavor text", it is just that the wording allows rules lawyers to sadly interpret against the obvious intent of the rule (as in "there is no logical reason why they wouldn't be able to shoot as they normally do, when all other rules apply")

semersonp
22-06-2008, 17:59
must've been overlooked?

'stand and shoot'

1/2 range, etc...

... this shooting is worked out just before moving chargers, during the move chargers part of the movement phase - refer to the Shooting section for rules governing missile weapons (see page 25)...

resolved as per shooting rules, yeah?

(i always try and post as little of the section as possible... copyright or something i guess... :))

Braad
22-06-2008, 18:13
Well, it does say "some missile weapons enable their users to shoot several times in each shooting phase" and the rules for S%S say 'look at the shooting' rules, but referring to shooting rules does not make it a 'shooting phase'. The action is still performed in the movement phase of the opponent.
But yeah, I don't think its the strongest argument.
I always was totally convinced that you couldn't shoot twice while S&S, but now I can't find why...

semersonp
22-06-2008, 18:20
oh i see...

well, by the thought that 'shooting rules don't apply to the movement phase' there would be no shooting at all... i mean, can gobbo wolf riders shoot in the movement phase AND the shooting phase?...

i'll admit its a bit funky... your ranged warriors fired a volley a moment before in their own shooting phase and now they see a distant enemy becoming a next door neighbor...

"sheit!... ready weapons... aim... loose!" or something to that effect... thus the -1 to hit... your weedy ranged boys have got one eye on the charging baddies and one eye on where your hand weapon is... and probably one eye on the terrain around you 'cuz as an archer unit you're about to be heading for the hills anyway... :)

but it goes: charge reactions lead you to stand and shoot... stand and shoot leads you to react in the movement phase with shooting phase parameters for those being charged...

circuitous but traceable... :)

EvC
22-06-2008, 20:42
The main thing is that some silly people at GW have ruled that if a certain item says "can be used in the shooting phase" (or words to that effect), then they do actually mean only in the shooting phase- see the High Elf FAQ and the Reaver Bow, which we are told can only be used in the shooting phase, and not as stand and shoot.

So there's precedent, you just have to decide if you want to follow an extremely dumb and short-sighted precedent by rules designers who are rarely consistent.

ShadowStroke
23-06-2008, 05:45
de for example...

so there you have it...

multishot capable ranged units can select multishot if they are in a stand and shoot situation...

:)

Funny how you listed every rule EXCEPT the ones that do not support your position.

1. P. 19 under S&S says "refer to for Shooting section for rules governing missile weapons (see page 25).

2. On p.25, the Shooting Phase is referenced as "Once the movement and magic phases are over, it is time to work out the shooting."

3. As a side note, p. 10 defines the shooting phase as Phase 3 where you can fire missle weapons.

4. Back to page 19, the Stand and Shoot reaction occurs during the movement phase of your opponents turn...to wit "Note that this is an exception to the turn sequence, as your opponent gets to move his troops, shoot, etc. during your turn."

5. On the multishot description on p. 55 specifically refers to the Dark Elf Repeater Crossbow when it states that multishot weapons "enable their users to shoot several times in each shooting phase. It does not say "Each time the weapon is fired, or each time the weapon is used. The exmample (Eg. a Dark Elf repeater crossbow can fire two shots in each shooting phase so it noted as having 2x multiple shots.

6. BTW..to hit modifiers "are all cumulative." p.28.


So there you have it..if you're not firing in your shooting phase, there's not mulitiple shots (pistols and braces of pistols have special rules though).

(Just being honest..and I'm a Dark Elf player).

ShadowStroke
23-06-2008, 05:53
The main thing is that some silly people at GW have ruled that if a certain item says "can be used in the shooting phase" (or words to that effect), then they do actually mean only in the shooting phase- see the High Elf FAQ and the Reaver Bow, which we are told can only be used in the shooting phase, and not as stand and shoot.

So there's precedent, you just have to decide if you want to follow an extremely dumb and short-sighted precedent by rules designers who are rarely consistent.

Or..listen to people that want to use rules to their advantage?:rolleyes:

If you get your corsairs or bowmen charged..you've usually done something wrong or your opponent has done something very good.

The turn sequence of the game is figurative. Each player moving all his troops at the same time while the other side stays still is a bit far fetched but it is a game.

The shooting phase represents units issuing orders to shoot advancing troops coming across the field. Even reloading. Stand and shoot, on the other hand, signifies a last ditch effort to fire what you have before you reach for you hand weapon to accept the oncoming charge. This is extremely smart not dumb design. It really is a testament to short-sighted tactics of
'shooty armies' to want to get in lots of missile shots rather than engaging in close combat in a game that is designed to be a close combat game.....

Tarax
23-06-2008, 08:30
So by RAW it could possibly be argued that the multiple shot only works in shooting phases, and not in movement phases (when S&S is resolved). I think it is just a case of poorly chosen wording.

Well, you usually can't do anything in your opponents turn, except close combat, so you can't S&S. ;)

on topic:
It's clearly RAI you CAN S&S with multiple shot.

Akuma
23-06-2008, 09:35
Sow by the law of RAW and in addition law of precedence form the HE book reaver bow you CANNOT S&S :)

Sweet

BTW ( I'm DE player to ;) - but the possibility of 80 shoots from corsairs crushed me as something that shouldnt be there

Venkh
23-06-2008, 09:55
I think this should go to direwolf for clarification until then we should all just carry on what we were doing all the way through 6th and 7th and multishoot as a charge reaction.

That text is just a preamble for the actual rules not a binding ruling on when you can multishoot. If there was an exception to the normal rules on shooting it would be in the stand and shoot section along with all of the other exceptions.

@Akuma - You were never getting 80 shots unless you had 39 shooters. RHBX2 is a champion only option.

Griefbringer
23-06-2008, 11:01
If there was an exception to the normal rules on shooting it would be in the stand and shoot section along with all of the other exceptions.

Actually, here I disagree. Since multiple shot is an exception to the normal shooting rules, its description should cover fully how it works in all circumstances (including stand and shoot). We can only do what rules allow us to do - thus, we can use multiple shot rule only when the rules explicitly allow us to use it.

I still think it is a case of sloppery rules writing, and the intention is that multiple shot works in the stand & shoot part. But we should not use the omission of any mention in the rules of stand & shoot towards multiple shot as a justification.

BTW: 4th and 5th edition rules for repeater crossbow (not other multiple shot weapons out there back then) explicitely mention that said weapon can shoot twice when doing S&S. However, this cannot be used as an argument on a 7th edition rules discussion.

semersonp
23-06-2008, 15:27
i'm glad to see this discussion taking place...

the official faqs have been growing ever more... snarky... and nearly schizophrenic...

just a few examples of the range they roam...

the playfully accepting:

(empire faq concerning unbending righteousness and joining flagellants... "the entire universe would implode in a puff of logic")

the obvious:

(vampire faq with changes to skellies/grave guard weapons being 1p 'per model')

were there really players out there who were giving a 30 strong unit of skeletons spears for 1pt? i hope not :(

the back-to-back contradicting:

(high elf faq about tyrion / teclis... "but it doesn't say it cannot be modified further" followed by the response of "we're fully aware this answer is not RAW"...)

"we're fully aware this answer is not RAW" is something i'm really ok with on a random warhammer site message board... peeps tend to espouse their RAW/I in a near democrat/republican style but coming from the very folks writing the rules and in fact penning an faq to address errors/omissions that cropped up from their initial failure... it just doesn't sit too well with me...

but "we trust everybody would agree" is madly vague... no! not everybody would agree, that's where there's a need to address it in an faq ya rummies :)...

parity...

college basketball... the court is 94' x 50'... 40 minute games... round ball... every time... one can compare the accomplishments of jimmy hull in 1939 and chris douglas-roberts in 2008 because they are essentially playing on the same court... occasional rule changes (the sports world's faq, if ya will) lend spice but are always as straightforward as possible offering no lethal ambiguity that would taint the tradition of the practice and make each and every game a universe to itself, analogous to naught else...

standard warhammer battlefields are 4' x 6'... armies are separated by 24"... players use accurate rulers to measure distances... every time...

the reason for this?

parity

the knowledge that across the globe a warhammer game played by anyone is comparable to one played in your own backyard... languages, politics and customs may be as different as night and day but the instant warhammer is hit upon as a topic of discussion everyone is speaking the same language... such glorious community! the mms that separate orcs and elves in india are the very same as the ones that mark how far daemons and empire charge in canada... i would not have us lose that wonderful and globally connecting balance for anything...

there is ever some wiggle room... but i'm disturbed to see badly bound, misspelled, ill-conceived and short on background rulebooks becoming the norm... don't let their slapdashery slip into the hearth of your gaming heart... let us demand better!

moving on...

the skinny on S+S... as to multi-shot weaponry...

*pg 19 of the BfSP rulebook

'stand and shoot'

if the charged unit has missile weapons and all the units charging are more than 1/2 their charge move away troops can shoot at one of the charging units as they advance...

this shooting is worked out just before moving chargers, during the move chargers part of the movement phase - refer to the shooting section for rules governing missile weapons (pg 25)...

*pg 25-31 of the BfSP rulebook

'to hit modifiers'

-1 stand & shoot
if a unit is charged and elects to stand and shoot at its attacker, then their chance of hitting is reduced... while the enemy thunders toward them, their aim will be distracted and their shot hurried as they abandon their bows to take up their swords...

[at the bottom of the section is an example involving gobbo bowmen and elf cavalry evidencing that, yep, stand and shoot penalties are indeed cumulative]

[also note the fact that stand & shoot modifiers appear in the shooting phase rules]

[further - note the text of "-1 stand & shoot"... it says "as they abandon their bows"... as lord aries put forth:

"there is a difference between "flavor text" and binding rules. The comment about them shooting in the shooting phase is not meant as a limiter but an example of how they are used. Taking sections out of context like that and i can make the rules say whatever i want."]

well put...

if you use the idea of "multishot weapons mention 'shoot several times in the shooting phase'" then by the same logic only bow armed warriors can stand & shoot... clearly illustrative flavor...

so follow the steps from

1) opponent charges
p 18 BfSP RB
2) declare stand & shoot charge reaction
p 19 BfSP RB
3) shooting rules apply to one unit charging your misslie troops
p 25 - 31 BfSP RB
4) multiple shots option of 1 or more missiles fired
p 55 BfSP RB

the single flavor phrase that is causing difficulty here is "some missile weapons enable their users to shoot several times in each shooting phase"...

you wouldn't give 30 skeletons spears for only one point, would ya? :p

in addition the rules for stand & shoot send you to the shooting phase rules... so there isn't a concern either way with multi-shot weapons being used in S&S reactions, right? :)

chivalrous
23-06-2008, 16:03
de for example...

'multiple shots'
read pg 19 of the BfSP BRB...

'stand and shoot'

1/2 range, etc...

... this shooting is worked out just before moving chargers, during the move chargers part of the movement phase - refer to the Shooting section for rules governing missile weapons (see page 25)...

Yup, the shooting rules are on page 25, however the Multi shot rules are on page 54.

The stand and shoot rule refers you to the rules governing the shooting section, it doesn't tell you to treat a stand and shoot reaction as if you were in the shooting phase, it just means that you follow the rules for measuring range, rolling to hit and rolling to wound.
It even stipulates that this occurs during the movement phase.

It is not the place if the shooting section to deal with every special rule attached to a missile weapon, those rules include the necessary restrictions themselves.
On page 54, it states twice that the rule is used "in each shooting phase" and not words to the effect of "every time the weapon fires".


I'm damn annoyed that this is the case and that I've been playing wrong up until now.

There doesn't appear to be any confusion in rules as intended and rules as written as the wording of multiple shot makes it clear enough.



in addition the rules for stand & shoot send you to the shooting [I]phase[/B] rules... so there isn't a concern either way with multi-shot weapons being used in S&S reactions, right? :)

Nope, it send you to the Shooting section

EvC
23-06-2008, 16:07
Or..listen to people that want to use rules to their advantage?:rolleyes:

If you get your corsairs or bowmen charged..you've usually done something wrong or your opponent has done something very good.

The turn sequence of the game is figurative. Each player moving all his troops at the same time while the other side stays still is a bit far fetched but it is a game.

The shooting phase represents units issuing orders to shoot advancing troops coming across the field. Even reloading. Stand and shoot, on the other hand, signifies a last ditch effort to fire what you have before you reach for you hand weapon to accept the oncoming charge. This is extremely smart not dumb design. It really is a testament to short-sighted tactics of
'shooty armies' to want to get in lots of missile shots rather than engaging in close combat in a game that is designed to be a close combat game.....

I like that you can rationalise what superficially seems as a dumb rules quirk, and actually I think you're right- though if it was really "not dumb" game design they'd have excplicitly said multishooting doesn't apply to stand and shoot. Good one, but mind the snarky rolling of eyes...

Andrew Luke
23-06-2008, 16:19
And yet another reason why the new corsairs are worthless...

GranFarfar
23-06-2008, 16:24
It really is a testament to short-sighted tactics of 'shooty armies' to want to get in lots of missile shots rather than engaging in close combat in a game that is designed to be a close combat game.....

Since we clearly arn't allowed to interpet the 'intentions' of the game developers, I assume it is stated somewhere in the BRB that this is a CC game?

ZigZagMan
23-06-2008, 16:33
SOOO how many shots do Ogre leadbelchers get when they stand and shot? Their weapon is listed as multi-shot=the number rolled on the artillery die, with no negatives to-hit for the extra shots, or range or moving. Do they only get one shot, with no possibility of misfire, when the weapon is not even capable of firing one shot in the first place?

The SkaerKrow
23-06-2008, 17:35
Are you kidding me? Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you people?

Stop looking for tenuous rules loopholes and learn to play the fricken game. Weak "arguments" like these are everything that's wrong with the hobby.

Festus
23-06-2008, 18:37
Hi

The arguments have been put forward an back.

I am very certain that S&S may use multiple shots, just like any other shooting rule that applies usually only in the shooting phase.

Reading into it that they may not multiple shoot is taking it much too far to be seriously considered IMNSHO.

Festus

chivalrous
23-06-2008, 18:57
Are you kidding me? Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you people?

Stop looking for tenuous rules loopholes and learn to play the fricken game. Weak "arguments" like these are everything that's wrong with the hobby.

Not knowing which side your taking makes it a bit difficult to reply to you and for those of us who have been playing the game for several editions already may think this whole discussion is daft. My Dark Elves have always stood and shot at chargers.
However in this new edition, it's been specified twice in the multiple shot rule that it occurs in the shooting phase so I'm inclined to believe that in this particular edition of Warhammer, they don't.



I am very certain that S&S may use multiple shots, just like any other shooting rule that applies usually only in the shooting phase.

Reading into it that they may not multiple shoot is taking it much too far to be seriously considered IMNSHO.


Many people have said the rules for stand and shoot say refer to the shooting section, they are right, but from the shooting section you then have to refer to the weapons section to find out what your weapon does. If the rules are applied in a specific sequence than maybe this discussion isn't so weak.


I think the interpretation of no multiple shot for S&S is due to the first sentence in the description of multiple shot in page 55:

"Some missile weapons enable their users to shoot several times in each shooting phase - known as multiple shot."

(The rest of the section then makes no reference to shooting phase.)

Except for "e.g. a Dark Elf repeater crossbow can fire two shots in each shooting phase"
If it were one mention of shooting phase I would call it careless wording, with the second I would think a little harder about it.

semersonp
23-06-2008, 22:22
so what i hear everyone saying is:

"all dark elf ranged attacks should be poisoned"

...

good point! :)

Deacon Bane
24-06-2008, 00:30
I think this was refered to already in this discussion, but the H.Elf Reaver bow can shoot three times in the"shooting phase", but the new FAQ say it can't for a S&S response. Multi shot also states, "in the Shooting phase".
Maybe with the enemy bearing down on you, you have time to get one shot off before drawing your CC weapon.

theunwantedbeing
24-06-2008, 00:48
Heh, here's an idea.

Multiple shot weapons say they can fire multiple times in each shooting phase.
Surely this means yours and your opponents shooting phases.
They cannot fire as a stand and shoot reaction of course as it isnt the shooting phase but the movement phase.

But they can shoot your opponent's turn.
Seems like a fair trade.

Condottiere
24-06-2008, 07:15
This seems a little inconsistent. It's either everyone has multi-shot during S&S or no-one has that capability.

chivalrous
24-06-2008, 22:33
This seems a little inconsistent. It's either everyone has multi-shot during S&S or no-one has that capability.

As the discussion goes, I think we're mainly talking about Dark Elves as their one and only misslie weapon has the multi-shot rule. But the discussion is just as applicable to Outriders, Pistoliers, Dwarf characters with a brace of pistols and such.

decker_cky
25-06-2008, 00:55
I think that those in favour of multishot NOT working in stand and shoot need to explain the rules interpretation of leadbelchers, which only operate by shooting with multishots.

I'd say that the case of the leadbelchers leads to a rules absurdity. When you follow a line of logic, and it leads to an absurdity, that means your line of logic was wrong. Interpreting multishot as not working in stand and shoot leads to an absurdity, so it must be wrong.

ZigZagMan
25-06-2008, 01:19
Exactly, its like they ignored my post because it totally threw their argument off. In the absence of concrete rules precedence is usually the tiebreaker.

decker_cky
25-06-2008, 01:42
It's not even precedence. It's just a rules interpretation that creates a situation that doesn't work. That's a wrong rules interpretation. :)

EvC
25-06-2008, 09:19
Ogre Leadbelchers can hardly be considered proper multishot weapons though, considering they don't suffer penalties for multiple shots ;)

Condottiere
25-06-2008, 09:38
Ogre Leadbelchers can hardly be considered proper multishot weapons though, considering they don't suffer penalties for multiple shots ;)17% of misfire compensates.;)

decker_cky
25-06-2008, 15:44
Plus....look in their rules. Multishoot (Artillery dice) seems to imply they're making a multishot, does it not?

Deacon Bane
25-06-2008, 16:15
Most "Multiple -shot weapons", have the option to shoot more than once. They don't have to . Leadbelchers do not have the option, so using them in this argument is off the mark.

decker_cky
25-06-2008, 16:26
No...it's right on the mark. They're multishot weapons, and follow the restrictions set on them (aside from the additional -1 ;)). They're a perfectly valid example of how trying to ruleslawyer away the ability to stand and shoot multishooting leads to problems.

Griefbringer
25-06-2008, 16:55
Do they explicitely have the "multiple shot" rule (as given in the BRB), or do they have another rule that gives them several shots per model?

decker_cky
25-06-2008, 18:42
Explicitly "multiple shot".

EvC
25-06-2008, 20:14
What the heck are the multiple shots rules that Leadbelchers do follow?!

decker_cky
25-06-2008, 20:40
That they shoot multiple shots obviously. All the other rules are covered by exceptions (can't shoot only once, no penalty for multiple shots).

So really...they follow multiple shots in the same way the steam tank follows war machine rules. ;)

lparigi34
25-06-2008, 20:54
Had to check out on this...

Agreed with EVC, please read the rules in full before being so self reassured of your arguments.

OK army book page 33, 2nd before last paragraph...

Not even the AB file has it wrong...:p

Deacon Bane
25-06-2008, 22:04
Leadbelchers, do not have the option to fire a single shot, other Multi-shot weapons do. I would refer to one of my previous points, if you need justification, in a S&S situation you may not have the time to make more than one shot. I guess we can argue round and round, until a FAQ comes out. To be honest I have only had this situation come up once. My opponent used the Reaver bow and shot three time on a S&S, it killed two Knights and caused a panic and cost me the game. Despite having read the FAQ that morning, I didn't bring it up until after the game. I would play it that you can Multi Shoot, but with the HE FAQ, I feel it is not right.

GranFarfar
26-06-2008, 08:23
Edit: Read the HE FaQ, my point is invalid.

EvC
26-06-2008, 09:44
Had to check out on this...

Agreed with EVC, please read the rules in full before being so self reassured of your arguments.

OK army book page 33, 2nd before last paragraph...

Not even the AB file has it wrong...:p

Lol now I'm curious, I don't have the OK book, what is it about it that makes me right? :D

decker_cky
26-06-2008, 16:04
Edit: Read the HE FaQ, my point is invalid.

Bad FAQ answers should not be extended beyond their specified applications. Just like the Rune of the True Beast vs Greater Daemons answer, this one is essentially 'wrong' (while being the official rule).

Malagant
27-06-2008, 02:16
Just because it's someone's opinion that a rule is "wrong" does not change the fact that it is the rule, and therefore should be followed unless otherwise agreed to with one's opponent.

I think Multi-shot should be useable as a S&S reaction.

The rules say otherwise, though.


Bad FAQ answers should not be extended beyond their specified applications. Just like the Rune of the True Beast vs Greater Daemons answer, this one is essentially 'wrong' (while being the official rule).

WLBjork
27-06-2008, 08:18
Bad FAQ answers should not be extended beyond their specified applications. Just like the Rune of the True Beast vs Greater Daemons answer, this one is essentially 'wrong' (while being the official rule).

In that particular case, it's also backed up by the wonderfully vague errata in the rulebook Q&A.

Gazak Blacktoof
27-06-2008, 08:22
Lol now I'm curious, I don't have the OK book, what is it about it that makes me right? :D


I don't know, but here's the 2nd to last paragraph

"Leadbelchers may both move and fire and stand & shoot with their Leadbelcher cannon. Due to the scattershot nature of the Leadbelcher cannon and the hail of lethal projectiles they launch, they do not count any penalties for moving, for long range or for multiple shots."

One of the special rules for their cannons is "Multiple Shots (Artillery dice)"

sulla
27-06-2008, 08:38
Bad FAQ answers should not be extended beyond their specified applications. Just like the Rune of the True Beast vs Greater Daemons answer, this one is essentially 'wrong' (while being the official rule).

Agreed. The beasts rule is obviously a cut and paste error invalidated by the new Greater daemon rules. But since it's in print, we have to follow it. We don't have to infer from it that all other cases work that way. It just counts in this case.

Reaver bow faq is similar IMO. A badly thought out answer that doesn't specify whether it is referring to the s&s rules in general or the wording of the specific reaver bow text. You have to apply it to that piece of equipment but by no means should apply it to any other. In a lot of ways it is like the ASF answer in the same FAQ which either specifically refers to ASF great weapons or makes DE assassins completely worthless vs charging HE...

decker_cky
27-06-2008, 16:49
The HE faq specifically refers to one case. It doesn't even say that ASF actually cancel each other out in this case, it says that they effectively cancel each other out, meaning the GW strikes last.

sulla
29-06-2008, 20:08
The HE faq specifically refers to one case. It doesn't even say that ASF actually cancel each other out in this case, it says that they effectively cancel each other out, meaning the GW strikes last.

Sure, but guys on here who have been in contact with Allessio have queried him and he has applied that answer as a blanket rule for all ASF cancelling out.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145778

Look for Atrahasis' replies. He's been in contact. So be prepared for assassins to be nerfed vs HE pending clarification by GW. (Hopefully they'll see sense before then, but you never know).

decker_cky
29-06-2008, 21:21
That's nice. That's not what the official rules say as of now. If and when there's an errata so that ASF just cancels out, then that will be the correct interpretation. There's lots of unofficial answers that are handed down at Gamesday and such which are suggested, but are not the rules as they stand.

Gazak Blacktoof
29-06-2008, 21:54
No, that would indicate there's a split opinion over how to interpret it and that according to the guy that wrote the FAQ you got the wrong end of the stick.

If the original question has been answered can we close this thread, if not, can we get back on topic.