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View Full Version : What kindred to do: beginer wood elf player



huron
23-06-2008, 21:00
I don't know what kindred to give to my highborn. I was thinking waywatcher or alter kindred. Anyone got anyother ideas.
Thanks

MrPickles
23-06-2008, 21:12
How many points is this at? At 2000 points a highborn may not be the best use of points. To be honest, I wouldn't take a lord at all at 2000 points unless you were planning on taking a double treeman army in which case an ancient would be good.

huron
23-06-2008, 21:18
It is at 2k but eventually i will take it to 3k.

W0lf
23-06-2008, 21:56
Alter or nothing.

That simple ;)

though as stated a higborn isnt really worth haing at 2K. Ether lvl 4 or ancient. And yes i play wood elves.

TheLionReturns
24-06-2008, 00:54
I will agree with the sentiments of others and say that a highborn may not really be the best use of points at 2000 pts. They are expensive and fragile. Nobles are the way forward IMO.

However, if you want a highborn I would advise a wardancer kindred. They stay with the bulk of your force giving leadership benefits, and equipped with the blades of loec can really pack a punch in close combat, whether it is killing rank and file with the extra attck dance or characters with the killing blow dance. Give the wardancer highborn an annoyance of netlings and amaranthine brooch too and you have a pretty solid character.

3+ ward against non-magical attacks, can only be hit on a 6 in challenges and 5 st5 attacks with killing blow or 6 s5 attacks, both of which you can reroll wounds. Probably as good a combat character as you can get for a WE highborn. Really adds punch to a wardancer unit, although I suppose you could argue that wardancers have enough of that already.

Alter highborns can be made pretty nasty too. In addition they can be made both tough in combat and at range giving great flexibility. They are fragile for the cost however. They are lone characters so need to be used very carefully to avoid being targeted. Also they cannot be your general so I personally avoid them. I use the Alter kindred for nobles only where the cost seems more reasonable in relation to the vulnerability and risk.

Have you thought about not taking a kindred? I often use one in my Eternal guard with a GW, the oaken armour and the amber pendent (if I choose the eternal guard kindred I can't get the benefit of the GW). He has fair protection and strikes first with a great weapon, reducing the attacks made against your eternal guard making them even harder to shift. Alternatively you could give him the Rhymers Harp and an annoyance of netlings, affording protection in a challenge and giving the whole unit a 5+ ward save, which obviously is more cost effective in bigger units of Eternal guard. You really have to build your army around this unit if you wish to field this type of general so it may not suit your army.

RavenBloodwind
24-06-2008, 01:58
As the above poster mentions last, try no kindred (Bruce Lee would be so proud!)

The alter has potential but robs you of the Ld bonus since he cannot be your general and even if he could he will be way away from the bulk of your army.

Similarly the waywatcher kindred is not ideal. You pay a lot more points to upgrade from scout kindred for which you gain: the ability to deploy closer to the enemy. For this you give up a lot of equipment options and again, you'll be way out away from your army where the Ld bonus is lost.

If you are dead set on taking a lord choice the mentioned treeman ancient and level 4 caster are good choices. I'm personally a fan of highborn on eagle with BoL and bodkins and stone of crystal mere. His mobility lets him put his Ld where it's needed and he can worry the hell out of enemy cav.

The Red Scourge
24-06-2008, 09:03
No ancient.

Get a Lvl 4, a BSB and two ordinairy treemen.

W0lf
24-06-2008, 11:12
Two treemen is a boring army comp for players that cant play the game.

TheLionReturns
24-06-2008, 11:52
Really not a fan of the treeman ancient personally. Of course they are amazing but there are so many interesting characters you can take that it seems a waste of a character slot to me when I can get a treeman as a rare. Of course I am talking from the perspective of creating an interesting force rather than one focused solely on power.

On the two treemen with bsb build, it is very powerful but you will face cries of cheese. Also whilst this list is of course powerful, the fact is that WE can be powerful with only 1 treeman or even none at all. That way you avoid the cheese cries unless they are the type of people that think any WE army is cheesy because it doesn't stand still and let itself get charged, like T3 no armour and no rank bonus elves clearly should.

Chicago Slim
24-06-2008, 12:13
It's entirely dependent on what the rest of your army looks like.

I've run the Alter Highborn in 2000 points, to good effect (yes, the rest of the army misses out on his Ld 10, but it's not like the rest of the army is hurting for Ld...)

I've also run an Eternal Highborn, with the Rhymer's Harp, in a big (28) unit of Eternal Guard (along with a BSB, carrying the banner of causing fear)-- it's a HUGE number of points in that one unit, but it worked great.


One of the nice things about Wood Elves is, there's a lot of great models... so, play around with it. Try an Alter for a while, and then try an Eternal, or a Wardancer-- buy yourself a present every now and again, in the form of a new Lord-worthy model of the appropriate type. They'll look great on the shelf or on the table.

enyoss
24-06-2008, 12:21
In contradiction to everyone else, I would say that a Highborn at 2000pts isn't such a bad thing. It's certainly one of my favourite options, as I like to have someone who can hold their own against enemy characters while bolstering my eternal guards' effectiveness.

However, I think you have focused on two of the worst kindreds for a Highborn.

Firstly, the Waywatcher kindred is pretty terrible as you don't get the Lethal Shot effects if you use a magic bow. Essentially, you are paying a ton of points for a BS6 Lethal Shot, where you could pay 24 + champion upgrade for exactly the same thing in a unit of waywatchers. You don't even get that much additional close combat effectiveness either due to the brutal restrictions on weapon and armour options. Secondly, the Alter kindred may seem nice on a Highborn (e.g. Bow of Loren and Arcane Bodkins with those 5 attacks :)), but in my experience this gimmick never really seems to pay off that well. The sacrifice you make in terms of Leadership, and the inherent vulnerability of an exposed single model of such high cost, are big drawbacks.

However, an excellent kindred for Highborns is the Wardancer kindred. Combined with some of the magic items (i.e. Blades of Loec, Annoyanace of Netlings, Moonstone of the Hidden Ways etc.) this guy can take on most enemy characters and is also pretty good against massed infantry. I've certainly had a lot of success with this kindred.

Apart from that, I think the kindreds are best suited to Nobles. An Alter noble can be particularly effective if used with Helm of the Hunt and the Hail of Doom Arrow. Fire off the Hail of Doom in turn 1 or 2, then throw him into a combat to help sway things your way.

As other posters have mentioned, I would primarily try using a Highborn without any kindred at all, in a unit of Eternal Guard. The additional protection afforded by the 100pt magic item allowance over the 50pt allowance of a Noble means that you're far more likely to stick around to make the Eternal Guard stubborn should they need it.

Finally, if you're starting out I would really advise against going with a Treeman Ancient as your lord choice. The builds and tactics you can use with this choice are pretty limited (although they can be effective), and I for one get really bored with it. Oh, and unless you want to have a contract out on you, I wouldn't go down the two Treemen + BSB route... ;).

Cheers,

enyoss

Dairym
24-06-2008, 13:13
An Alter highborn can be a real killing machine, but can't be the general. Not a bad option to start out with, since it's relatively easy to use. As others have said, wardancer is the other killy option, and the amber pendant goes a long way to negating the achilles heel of wardancers (getting charged).

Eternal kindred won't normally add much to a lord build, since it doesn't combine with magic weapons (e.g. the magic burning swords are the same cost).

If you have wild riders, that kindred could be worth a shot - helm of the hunt and spear of twilight is a host of killing blow attacks (though an alter could have the same combo, of course).

Waywatcher (or scout) I wouldn't use unless you have a specific role in mind.

SilentTempest
24-06-2008, 13:58
My opinion is about the same as everyone else's. I personally don't use Lords in WE, I just think that their additional cost over a Noble isn't worth the benefit they give over one.

But if you ask me what Kindreds I rate, well, my opinion is pretty much the same as everyone else's. Alter and Wardancer.

Alter Nobles are great Hail of Doom Arrow delivery systems and then can be a right pain in the behind afterwards. A single infantry-based character moving 18" a turn is just ridiculous (in a good way).

The Wardancer Noble is also a solid choice, adding extra hitting power to an already hitty unit.

On Treeman Ancients, a lot of people are warning you off, but there's another school of thought that basically says "If you already have a treeman, have a spare 40 points, and a spare Lord slot, there's no reason NOT to make it an Ancient. You get the extra Leadership and extra Treesinging, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting at the moment. The extra Ld alone is probably worth the 40 points.

(And if you're being competitive, Treeman Ancient with Annoyance of Netlings will make opponents cry... or hit you. Not for use in friendlies, but very effective.)

W0lf
24-06-2008, 14:21
I really dont see why anyone would take a wardancer kindred???

Take a alter and charge along with the wardancer unit.

You get an extra atatck, less restrictions, greater movement and 2 break tests (if you fail one and pass the other you cant get run down).

OldMaster
24-06-2008, 17:11
Eternal. It's absolutely fantastic!!
You can stab people from the second rank in a unit of Eternals!!!
>.>....

Never-ever take the Eternal kindred unless you want to completely waste your points.
Even if it had a negative points value, I still wouldn't take it >.>

Basically, yeah. Alter, Wardancer. Wild Kindred is also a possibility for those certain of themselves.

Alter has no limitations in GW and that is how my brother often uses it. GW/Amber Pendant. At rare times, he drops the Amber Pendant and buys Helm of the Hunt or a Ward Save, for the charge. Helm of the Hunt actually leaves him with 6 S 6 attacks on the charge, which is quite scary.

themandudeperson
24-06-2008, 17:15
I know I'm speaking from ignorance here, but how many people actually accept a challenge from a Treeman Ancient? If I hit you with a block of infantry with a hero and you challenge the unit, I'd know out right that I'll win the combat almost regardless due to static CR so I'd pass.. Then again, I like to use my Skaven with a BSB leading from behind and a Warlord up front, so when I decline a challenge, I chose who goes to the back. Oh, and it won't be the warlord with the weeping blade, either..
(can someone confirm whether this is a legal move though, I've only done it once and it smacks of something that looks right, but shouldn't be right)

The Red Scourge
24-06-2008, 19:37
I know I'm speaking from ignorance here, but how many people actually accept a challenge from a Treeman Ancient? If I hit you with a block of infantry with a hero and you challenge the unit, I'd know out right that I'll win the combat almost regardless due to static CR so I'd pass.. Then again, I like to use my Skaven with a BSB leading from behind and a Warlord up front, so when I decline a challenge, I chose who goes to the back. Oh, and it won't be the warlord with the weeping blade, either..
(can someone confirm whether this is a legal move though, I've only done it once and it smacks of something that looks right, but shouldn't be right)

This maneuver is of course perfectly legal..

Except for the fact, that your opponent gets to choose, who gets sent to the back. Sorry to disappoint you. Check out BRB p. 77 for the full rules on challenges :)

huron
24-06-2008, 19:59
I think i might take a spellweaver or i might go with 4 heroes.

Thanks for all your help.

themandudeperson
24-06-2008, 20:19
This maneuver is of course perfectly legal..

Except for the fact, that your opponent gets to choose, who gets sent to the back. Sorry to disappoint you. Check out BRB p. 77 for the full rules on challenges :)

Check the Skaven special rule "lead from the back" on pg 10: "Furthermore, if Skaven characters refuse a challenge, the Skaven player, rather than his opponent, can choose which character goes at the back of the unit."

So, I have 30 clanrats or stormvermin or whatever, with a BSB carrying banner of the swarm and a Warlord. I have +2 for outnumber, +3 for ranks, +1 for standard, and +1 for battle standard. That's a static CR of 7 and my Warlord still gets his attacks in as I elect my musician to go to the back of the unit.

OldMaster
24-06-2008, 22:09
I know I'm speaking from ignorance here, but how many people actually accept a challenge from a Treeman Ancient?

Not sure about "people", but Skulltaker does ;)

Grey Seer Skretch
26-06-2008, 17:22
Grey Seer Skretch is Pro Highborns! In particular, I have repeatedly had consdierable luck with a Waywatcher Highborn, and the model is just absolutely gorgeous and so wood-elfy looking it hurts ever so slightly. Give him the moonstone of hidden ways, the bow of loren and either arcane bodkins for knight-slotting, or starfire arrows for panicking hordes (2 games ago, playing vs night goblins, 4 starfire arrows into a unit of 40 inc BSB, unit panicked, fled straight through another 40 inc Shaman, whole lot stacked it off the board...beautiful)

Krusty
26-06-2008, 21:24
at 2000 i wouldnt bother bringing a lord...
id make him an alter hero, give him a gw, HoDA and HotH

ethsar46
26-06-2008, 23:56
If you want EG as troops you should take a non-kindred highborn. But if your not using EG, then i would suggest either a kitted out WR/WD/Alter Highborn or a Lvl 4 Spell Weaver with the wand for DD re-rolls.

However it should be noted that most people find 2 heros work better then 1 Lord for WE. Unless you want a magic item setup that requires the 100pt limit like the machine gun alter.

I always use a lord in my WE army because I like the machine gun setup, the Ancient or a Lvl 4 wizard when I use them. However for the price of a kitted out Lvl 4 SW or Ancient, you can easily take 2 kitted Alter/WD/WR nobles.