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Skywave
24-06-2008, 02:13
Here's a summary : I've been out of 40k for a few years now (played mostly during 2nd edition and early 3rd), and with the comming of 5th edition, some of my friends want to start playing 40k now.

So then it's time to resurect my Tyranids army, but I'm not aware of what change could happen in 5th edition. Will the 4th edition codex be viable enough under 5th edition until the new one is released further down the road?

I'm wondering if any rule change will affect how some weapons work. I don't want to (re)build my troop to find out later that the gun or upgrade I gave them is totally useless or something (like some of my exeptional sized warriors with venom cannon squad, meh).

MrGiggles
24-06-2008, 02:54
In this case, I'm thinking that Grotshiel.......errr I mean cover saves from intervening units will help the bugs a fair bit. Have to see how things pan out, but if gaunts and the like can give the big tank eating bugs some cover, it should help.

The other thing that should make bugs a little nicer are the new ordnance rules. Bugs and most things with ordnance should be a bit better at shooting. Things like Zoanthropes become much more viable.

From what I've read, it doesn't look like Lictors and Ravenors get much help. Both of those units seem to need a fair few things to happen to really get their points back.

Wraithbored
24-06-2008, 03:22
You will also be able to field CC Carnifexes that actually GET to CC*shock and horror*. :) Which will be a nice piece of variety.

zeep
24-06-2008, 03:48
At this point it is very difficult to give you the specifics you are asking for. While the 'Nid codex will not be redone any time soon, several of the opposing armies will. As the Spacemarine codex involves the majority of most peoples games, the specifics for them will drastically change alot of advice given to you.

Points to help you, from a fellow nid player.

1) Rending on the to wound results in a large diffrence in effectiveness vs point value on current models.

2) Running on MC's has in many of the games I've played been negated by the running of the target unit. :D

3) Vehicles are much more resistent to your range fire.

4)Changes in scoring and Vc may effect you or may not if your local game group tends to the more common "kill em till their gone" game.

5) Wound and save allocation has changed. The actual effects are not that dramatic..

6)Bio mods have to be considered, try proxies till your ready to remake your models.

7) Brood lords.. love em, hate em ;)

8) True los over area has an effect, but not that much of one.

There are more, but again, with out the specifics behind the armies that are going to change, its very hard to say what to model in your army. ( I.e a change in the psychic hood would greatly change zoe's).

Welcome back, and good dining.

Skywave
24-06-2008, 06:13
Thanks guys!

So a unit can "screen" another to give it a cover save of some sort? Could help Genestealers get into combat if it's the case :p

And what about that ordnance thing? There's no ordnance weapon in the 'nids army if I'm not mistaken, only assault/blast.

My army is a bit more shooty that CC, so it could be a pain dealing with vehicules, but I should be able to deal with them eventually! I'll leave the rending to the genestealers too if if become overpriced with the changes. I won't use any biomorphs for now (I could always glue them on later), now I just need to know what troops to build! :D

Devil-Dice
24-06-2008, 09:33
The new rules are awesome for Nids imo, i had a game with em in the new rules last week and the new combat result modifiers work well with em. Makes combat real smooth and effective. Especially if youve got the psychic scream choir backing you up!

As already stated running and unit cover are also very handy, finally got my leaping warriors out of thier box!

But the new blast rules (what MrGiggles was referring to with the 'ordnance' comment) are fantasic, no longer does your barbed strangler pie plate vanish into the ether! the scattering combined with the fact that all blasts now hit in the same way as flamer templates makes it very hard to miss. Combine a few thropes gunfexes and deathspitter armed warriors and you can now make a very big mess of infantry units.

Devil-Dice

Killmaimburn
24-06-2008, 11:16
Lets see
1) rending nerf doesn't effect them too much, you'll just see everyone take feeder tendrils so that everyone always hits everything (so that you only ever really roll the too wound dice)
2) more people will take frag grenade equivilants as in 4th it meant both go at int10, here it means you go at normal initiative so you still get the drop on most forces even if they hide in the trees.
3) we miss out on having cheap kamikaze skimmers(:cries:) and our basic troops don't get to beneift from the complex units rule of "minimse damage" by dumping loads of shots on different bits of units (effectively wasting shots that come at you)
4) we'll have a problem with AV13-14 unless we take the spore things or someone lets a screamer killer get too close.But I guess we can't have it all.
5)Expect combat to be over in one turn, try to charge multiple units if at all possible (even just sending one guy out as a token to a different unit, sometimes) to try to to avoid the problems of new consolidation.
6) synapse can keep up now without being silly expensive, but don't expect CC monsters to get there, they are just funny fire magnets earlier on now.

Striker_002
24-06-2008, 11:33
As mentioned Tyranids will still be fine for most games in 5th edition. Plus, I think they will gain one of the cheesiest builds possible due a certain new rule in 5th edition. Anyone care to bet how long it will take for competitive nid players to start making all scuttling(scouts) hordes of genestealers and without number gaunts that move off of the table side and fleet and assault the same turn? IMO that is just 10 kinds of wrong to the balance of the game.

==Me==
24-06-2008, 13:03
Scuttlers and Acid Maw become the go-to upgrades. Coming off the board edges is insane, and re-rolling wounds makes rending much better.

Since tanks are hit on the rear armor, things like Raveners are actually quite good tankbusters. The only problem bugs will have is with Land Raiders and Monos, but who won't?

Without Number spinegaunts are great now, they screen your army on the way in, die, and come back to claim objectives.

Grimtuff
24-06-2008, 13:26
Without Number spinegaunts are great now, they screen your army on the way in, die, and come back to claim objectives.

Except Sustained Assault/Attack (whichever the old Exarch power wasn't) does not exist in 5th ed. ;)

Tyranids have been turned on their head by many of the changes, namely Lictors potentially dying when they come on through to Thornback and Symbiotic Rippers being useless.

I'd wait for the FAQ personally.

Striker_002
24-06-2008, 13:44
Except Sustained Assault/Attack (whichever the old Exarch power wasn't) does not exist in 5th ed. ;)

Tyranids have been turned on their head by many of the changes, namely Lictors potentially dying when they come on through to Thornback and Symbiotic Rippers being useless.

I'd wait for the FAQ personally.

The thing is, no where in the "without number" rule is the term "sustained assault" mentioned at all. Without number is still perfectly usable in 5th.

gorgon
24-06-2008, 14:14
As mentioned Tyranids will still be fine for most games in 5th edition. Plus, I think they will gain one of the cheesiest builds possible due a certain new rule in 5th edition. Anyone care to bet how long it will take for competitive nid players to start making all scuttling(scouts) hordes of genestealers and without number gaunts that move off of the table side and fleet and assault the same turn? IMO that is just 10 kinds of wrong to the balance of the game.

I hardly see deep flanking Gaunts as a game-winning move. Chances are that they're going to bounce off marines, lose combat and then take Ld tests on a 5 with modifiers if no synapse is nearby. They'll chew up IG, but with no consolidation into combat they'll get shot up the following turn.

Flanking Genestealers would be overpowered if you could choose which side you come in on. You can't. I really don't think using scuttling to make flanking moves will be as bad as it seems.

@ the OP: My advice for 5th -- keep most of your stuff on the table and hit them with a wave, with as much contacting simultaneously as possible. You want a good volume of Gaunts screening 'stealers, walking Tyrants with full Tyrant Guard units, leaping Warriors, and shooty Carnifexes to surpress vehicles. Traditional Tyranid gameplay will be where it's at, I think. I think you'll probably be in good shape.

MrGiggles
24-06-2008, 14:25
Thanks guys!

So a unit can "screen" another to give it a cover save of some sort? Could help Genestealers get into combat if it's the case :p


Genestealers serve to benefit greatly from the cover saves for intervening units. Depending on how things pan out, the big bugs might benefit as well.

Genestealers will probably also get a boost from the new infiltrate rules which supposedly have units coming into the game from different table edges.

It should be pretty interesting.

Stingray_tm
24-06-2008, 14:32
Expect your cheap cannon fodder units hiding on objectives, while elite units try to protect them. Also get used to lose a lot, because you take things like Lictors, Spore Mines, Biovores or Raveners, just because you take them.

Brimstone
24-06-2008, 14:36
But the new blast rules (what MrGiggles was referring to with the 'ordnance' comment) are fantasic, no longer does your barbed strangler pie plate vanish into the ether! the scattering combined with the fact that all blasts now hit in the same way as flamer templates makes it very hard to miss. Combine a few thropes gunfexes and deathspitter armed warriors and you can now make a very big mess of infantry units.

Devil-Dice

Eh Barbed Stranglers are assault weapons and don't scatter anyway.

All Tyranid weapons are currently assault and this hasn't changed.

Biovores are the only things that scatter.

OK As a nid player things I'm doing.

1. Running screamer killers
2. Spine gaunt meat shields that gather around combats for the assault unit to pop back into.
3. Biovores became fairly useless in the 4th edition codex and may still be but I've always liked them so I want to try them out under 5th edition.
4. Combat Warriors with leaping, with the addition of run may become useful again.

Striker_002
24-06-2008, 15:17
I hardly see deep flanking Gaunts as a game-winning move. Chances are that they're going to bounce off marines, lose combat and then take Ld tests on a 5 with modifiers if no synapse is nearby. They'll chew up IG, but with no consolidation into combat they'll get shot up the following turn.

Flanking Genestealers would be overpowered if you could choose which side you come in on. You can't. I really don't think using scuttling to make flanking moves will be as bad as it seems.

I guess we have a difference of opinions then. By the time the gaunts come in there should be some synapse creatures near the enemy. On genestealers, it doesn't matter if they come from your left or right flank, if you have any number of models you probably have units on both sides of your deployment zone! Even the possibility of a genestealer making closecombat without any chance of being shot at is not remotely fair. I'm sure you are going to have some units within 13-18 inches of either of your table sides which can be assaulted the turn those stealers come in. This gives tyranids a serious advantage over any ranged army. Its a no brainer choice as what tyranid player wouldn't want a good chance for his stealers to make it into combat unscathed?

gorgon
24-06-2008, 16:22
I guess we have a difference of opinions then. By the time the gaunts come in there should be some synapse creatures near the enemy. On genestealers, it doesn't matter if they come from your left or right flank, if you have any number of models you probably have units on both sides of your deployment zone! Even the possibility of a genestealer making closecombat without any chance of being shot at is not remotely fair. I'm sure you are going to have some units within 13-18 inches of either of your table sides which can be assaulted the turn those stealers come in. This gives tyranids a serious advantage over any ranged army. Its a no brainer choice as what tyranid player wouldn't want a good chance for his stealers to make it into combat unscathed?

It's all problematic. What if the opponent uses a refused flank? Then it becomes a 50/50 gamble as to whether the 'stealers make combat at all. Even if you come on the correct side, who's to say your opponent left a juicy target there?

Large, stationary armies like IG would seem to be the most vulnerable to the flank charge. The kicker is that after those 'stealers arrive and wipe out a IG squad, they can't consolidate into another and will take a faceful of rapid-firing from the umpteen other units the IG army has. "Speed bump" units are going to be very popular in 5th. Never mind how the run rule is going help an army redeploy quicker to respond to threats like these.

As far as flanking Gaunts go, it's hard enough coordinating the synapse net when you know where all your units are. Trying to plan for synapse down both flanks and whatever else you have on the table...no thanks. I'd rather take the scout move and use the cover saves they'll grant. If you want to play with flanking, a 'Stealer Shock/Godzilla list would probably be the thing to try. It'd be lots of MCs up the middle with 'stealers either scouting or flanking depending on the opponent and mission.

Look, it's a neat trick, and the best part about it is that you can choose how you want to use scuttling from game to game. The things you're forgetting is that players will adjust, and that Tyranids work best when their units mutually support one another. And that's harder to pull off when units are coming in on random edges in random turns.

Lorieth
24-06-2008, 16:27
Flanking Genestealers would be overpowered if you could choose which side you come in on. You can't.

You can't guarantee it, but 2/3 of the time they'll enter on the side you want.

E-616
24-06-2008, 16:41
As far as flanking Gaunts go, it's hard enough coordinating the synapse net when you know where all your units are. Trying to plan for synapse down both flanks and whatever else you have on the table...no thanks. I'd rather take the scout move and use the cover saves they'll grant. If you want to play with flanking, a 'Stealer Shock/Godzilla list would probably be the thing to try. It'd be lots of MCs up the middle with 'stealers either scouting or flanking depending on the opponent and mission.

QFT, I believe that Gaunts that are WoN will be great outside of the kill points missions, but having them run on far away from synapse isn't going to do a lot for them imo.

Stealers are fine for scouting, the new rending rules tones them down nicely and even in the current edition I've seen them take a kicking in hth, they're only as good as the amount of rending hits they cause and although you can take acid maw to re-roll wounds I think it's more important to take flesh hooks to allow them to get the hits in first in the majority of combats.

If what I hear is true about MC needing to be 50% obscured to claim a cover save I wonder if we'll see them being screened by Warriors who in turn will be screened by Stealers who will then be screened by Gaunts :p

Striker_002
24-06-2008, 16:53
It's all problematic. What if the opponent uses a refused flank? Then it becomes a 50/50 gamble as to whether the 'stealers make combat at all. Even if you come on the correct side, who's to say your opponent left a juicy target there?

As mentioned, its a 2/3 chance, the odds are with you, and if not, then oh well, you havn't really lost anything, as you now just travel down the flank like you would travel towards the enemy in a head on charge anyway. Basically you either gain an advantage, or fail to gain an advantage. You don't exactly suffer from either result. Example: You are offered to predict the flip of a coin. If you are right you get $5, if you are wrong you lose nothing. Why not?



Large, stationary armies like IG would seem to be the most vulnerable to the flank charge. The kicker is that after those 'stealers arrive and wipe out a IG squad, they can't consolidate into another and will take a faceful of rapid-firing from the umpteen other units the IG army has. "Speed bump" units are going to be very popular in 5th. Never mind how the run rule is going help an army redeploy quicker to respond to threats like these.

IG certainly are shafted the most(like usual) and I'll admit I'm particularly peaved because I play guard. However, this flanking would also heavily effect my space marines, two of my friends' tau armies, necrons, most chaos builds, etc.... In fact, the only armies it really doesn't effect are other nids and orks, and even against orks its nearly guaranteeing the charge for the tyranid player.



As far as flanking Gaunts go, it's hard enough coordinating the synapse net when you know where all your units are. Trying to plan for synapse down both flanks and whatever else you have on the table...no thanks. I'd rather take the scout move and use the cover saves they'll grant. If you want to play with flanking, a 'Stealer Shock/Godzilla list would probably be the thing to try. It'd be lots of MCs up the middle with 'stealers either scouting or flanking depending on the opponent and mission.

At least with the nid players I've played against, they have enough synapse on the board between warriors, hive tyrants, and psychic chickens(zoanthropes) that they have a "synapse blanket" that covers most of the board. Besides, those without number gaunts and scout ahead die, and then decide to come from the flanks, a brutal combo.



Look, it's a neat trick, and the best part about it is that you can choose how you want to use scuttling from game to game. The things you're forgetting is that players will adjust, and that Tyranids work best when their units mutually support one another. And that's harder to pull off when units are coming in on random edges in random turns.

There is merit in your argument, however it still does not balance itself out. Even if a flanking genestealer squad is "isolated", it will still have a very good chance of getting into combat the turn it comes on the board. Lets say the stealer squad is 8 strong(its a number i see alot). This approximately 150 pt squad will assault an enemy squad thats worth at least 100 points(a equipped guard squad) or more commonly a more expensive squad such as fire warriors(120ish) or space marine combat squad(150ish equipped), or even an expensive vehicle(150+ points). The genestealers will undoubtably eat the squad to pieces in close combat taking little to no casualties. There, the genestealers have basically just "earned their points" with very little risk since they had no chance to be shot at before hand. NOW the enemy gets a chance to shoot at the nearly full strength stealer squad, but they only have one turn before they are in combat again, where as before, even scouting genestealers usually had to suffer two turns of shooting before reaching combat. By this time there could be a running carnivex or hive tyrant about to hit your lines as well.

In summary, The flank ability offers obvious advantages without any noteable disadvantages.

edit:

If what I hear is true about MC needing to be 50% obscured to claim a cover save I wonder if we'll see them being screened by Warriors who in turn will be screened by Stealers who will then be screened by Gaunts :p
I think it will be quite cool, fluffy and effective to see a nid player do that. Score one point for TLOS.

thanoson
24-06-2008, 17:09
Eh Barbed Stranglers are assault weapons and don't scatter anyway.

All Tyranid weapons are currently assault and this hasn't changed.

Biovores are the only things that scatter.




Hmm... I thought all blast templates deviate with the new rules?

BTW, the game I played with my nids was awesome. The troop cover save is awesome. My deathspitter warriors were loving being out in the open and shooting.

gorgon
24-06-2008, 18:57
There is merit in your argument, however it still does not balance itself out. Even if a flanking genestealer squad is "isolated", it will still have a very good chance of getting into combat the turn it comes on the board. Lets say the stealer squad is 8 strong(its a number i see alot). This approximately 150 pt squad will assault an enemy squad thats worth at least 100 points(a equipped guard squad) or more commonly a more expensive squad such as fire warriors(120ish) or space marine combat squad(150ish equipped), or even an expensive vehicle(150+ points). The genestealers will undoubtably eat the squad to pieces in close combat taking little to no casualties. There, the genestealers have basically just "earned their points" with very little risk since they had no chance to be shot at before hand. NOW the enemy gets a chance to shoot at the nearly full strength stealer squad, but they only have one turn before they are in combat again, where as before, even scouting genestealers usually had to suffer two turns of shooting before reaching combat. By this time there could be a running carnivex or hive tyrant about to hit your lines as well.

So your argument requires the 'stealers to come in where and when you want, with your opponent doing nothing to protect against such an eventuality, or in fact putting an expensive target out on the flank, and then not taking care of the 'stealers in the following turn? Great, then I guess it's a game winner.

I think you're looking at the best case scenario and not taking an adaptive opponent into account. *shrug*

@E-616: The way screening worked for the 3rd edition rulebook list was Termagants-Hormagaunts-Warriors-Tyrant, all pretty tightly bunched. :D It'd only be a little less ponderous now because your fleet and run rolls won't always cooperate, which could force the whole mass to travel at the speed of your lowest roll. But yeah, it's a lot of cover saves if you play it right.

zealousheretic
24-06-2008, 18:59
What do you guys think about dropping extended carapace from Warriors or Genestealers in 5th?

Previously the conventional wisdom was that the save against bolter fire was worth the points. However, if gaunts can confer 4+ cover to stealers and warriors, the upgrade seems a bit unnecessary, not least of which because this cover save also protects against things that deny these units their 4+ save.

The points in favor would be that if you can successfully screen your assault warriors and 'stealers until they reach combat, you can potentially save a lot of points by not upgrading their armor. Stealers can spend those points on acid maw, scything talons, feeder tendrils, etc. Warriors are usually 5-10 points on the side of uncomfortably pricy for how easily killed they are and being able to leave carapace off without a noticeable drop in survivability will help their viability a great deal.

The downsides being that since 'stealers can't bounce from combat to combat, lack of carapace could get the whole brood wiped out by rapid fire once they polish off a unit. Possible countermeasures could include insuring that they have a supporting gaunt unit which could then consolidate in front or around them to provide cover saves.

Also if my opponent manages to get a clear shot at those broods, it's going to hurt. On the other hand, most of the things that move fast enough to make that clear shot early in the game (things like land speeders, eldar skimmers, etc) already mount AP4 weaponry and the situation isn't much different than it was in 4th.

I'd like to hear you guys' thoughts.

EvilMinion
24-06-2008, 19:48
Blast weapons do deviate in the new rules thanson is correct.

FunkyRatDemon
24-06-2008, 19:55
Hmm... I thought all blast templates deviate with the new rules?

BTW, the game I played with my nids was awesome. The troop cover save is awesome. My deathspitter warriors were loving being out in the open and shooting.
All blasts do deviate, so they do scatter

What do you guys think about dropping extended carapace from Warriors or Genestealers in 5th?

Previously the conventional wisdom was that the save against bolter fire was worth the points. However, if gaunts can confer 4+ cover to stealers and warriors, the upgrade seems a bit unnecessary, not least of which because this cover save also protects against things that deny these units their 4+ save.

The points in favor would be that if you can successfully screen your assault warriors and 'stealers until they reach combat, you can potentially save a lot of points by not upgrading their armor. Stealers can spend those points on acid maw, scything talons, feeder tendrils, etc. Warriors are usually 5-10 points on the side of uncomfortably pricy for how easily killed they are and being able to leave carapace off without a noticeable drop in survivability will help their viability a great deal.

The downsides being that since 'stealers can't bounce from combat to combat, lack of carapace could get the whole brood wiped out by rapid fire once they polish off a unit. Possible countermeasures could include insuring that they have a supporting gaunt unit which could then consolidate in front or around them to provide cover saves.

Also if my opponent manages to get a clear shot at those broods, it's going to hurt. On the other hand, most of the things that move fast enough to make that clear shot early in the game (things like land speeders, eldar skimmers, etc) already mount AP4 weaponry and the situation isn't much different than it was in 4th.

I'd like to hear you guys' thoughts.

Mathhammer!:
I will still use EC, even w/ Rending getting toned down:
A unit of 8 Genestealers w/ EC only on the charge gets 24 Attacks
Vs 10 Marines
of the 24 to hit, 16 should hit, and 2 Rend +6 saves, so then lets saw that 4 die
Those 6 Marines strike back w/ 7 attacks (via bare sergeant), 4 hit, 2 wound, statistically with EC we lose 1, w/out EC we lose about 1.5
Assuming they pass their LD test; So we should think combat will last 2 rounds, then they can 'sweep' and move on your turn then assault another unit

Also remember that Genestelers always won't have cover, a spinegaunt shield only lasts so long, and a brood of 18 should die to 2 Space Marine squads firing (8 Bolters, 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Missile Launcher)[thats going to be about 5 bolter, 1 plasma, and 4 Missile wounds, all no Sv] so those G'stealers w/out EC shouldn't fair that well next round of shooting unless you have 2 squads in front of them (then they're rather far back) or plan on using a 30-strong unit of Spinegaunt shield

gorgon
24-06-2008, 20:39
I tend to agree regarding EC. Drop pods, deep-striking Terminators, skimmers, etc. can also easily get past/around a Gaunt screen. YMMV, but I find Genestealers to be a relatively expensive investment that I like to keep protected.

Striker_002
24-06-2008, 20:58
So your argument requires the 'stealers to come in where and when you want, with your opponent doing nothing to protect against such an eventuality, or in fact putting an expensive target out on the flank, and then not taking care of the 'stealers in the following turn? Great, then I guess it's a game winner.

I think you're looking at the best case scenario and not taking an adaptive opponent into account. *shrug*


You seem to have massively misunderstood my post. It doesn't matter where and when the stealers come in, because there is a very high chance there will be an enemy unit SOMEWHERE within reach of the flank that they do come in(with a 2/3 chance of coming in from the one on they want). If the enemy has really pulled his forces around 18 inches away from both flanks(or even just one flank, which is not a good idea for the 2/3rds mentioned above) to be safe from the genestealers then the trouble the threat has caused to his deployment has already been worth the effort. Also, how can one protect from this flanking unit, besides putting a line of models along each flank? And an expensive target? The examples I listed off were typical troop squads, nothing more. Anything smaller would just be ignored unless they happened to be the only target.(You don't assault the 5 man guardsmen squad, you assault the stormtroopers next to them).

This is not a "best case" scenario, this is a very typical one. Best case would be a terminator squad near a flank which takes two turns to get eaten, so the stealers assault again without chance of being fired at. Worst case, the enemy did happen to completely abandon one table side(no easy feat), and the stealers have to come at the enemy as they normaly would.

40kdhs
25-06-2008, 00:41
There is no tip for tynids players because it is a 'point and push' army. The only way for you to play this army is run forward and yours definitely runs FASTER in this edition. You will not be afraid of forceweapon any more.

You will overwhelm your opponents with speed and number and they can't stop you at all.

Occulto
25-06-2008, 01:33
There is no tip for tynids players because it is a 'point and push' army. The only way for you to play this army is run forward and yours definitely runs FASTER in this edition. You will not be afraid of forceweapon any more.

You will overwhelm your opponents with speed and number and they can't stop you at all.

How do they run faster?

Normal move, fleet and assault. Exactly as they do now.

You don't get to fleet and run in the same turn. :p

Skywave
25-06-2008, 05:16
Thanks for all the replies guys :) You guys talk about a lot of stuff I'm not familiar with since I barely played under 3rd edition and never played with 4th :p

As I was looking at my Warriors and my Codex I came up with this build, tell me if I should change anything :

I'll make two unit of 5 Warrior with Ws, Bs, Str and save biomorph.

-3 of them with Scything Talon and Devourer
-1 with Scything Talon and Deathspitter
-1 with Scything Talon and Venom Cannon

Then I'll probably use my remaining 5 Warriors to make Leaping CC Warrior with Talon and Rending Claw.

Should I loose the WS upgrade for the shooty Warrior or keep it for when I get into CC (or should they stay away from CC) ?

Do you guys get any upgrades for stealers? They become pricy fast with upgrades.

Hormagaunt with Str biomorphs, worth it ?

Also I saw someone mentioned that Flesh Hook could become important, should I consider getting that ?

zealousheretic
25-06-2008, 05:37
Should I loose the WS upgrade for the shooty Warrior or keep it for when I get into CC (or should they stay away from CC) ?


If they don't have rending claws they should avoid CC. That, and after paying points for those guns, you want to make sure they shoot a lot. In CC they're just wasting those points.

Focus and specialization are key for Tyranids. Pick one role for a brood or monster, and buy only the biomorphs that help it fulfill that role. Otherwise you end up with overly expensive broods that waste some of their potential no matter what they do.



Do you guys get any upgrades for stealers? They become pricy fast with upgrades.


Conventional wisdom is to buy them extended carapace, as the save against bolter fire is well worth it. Feeder tendrils are going to be very strong in this edition as well.

You're right in that you don't want to go overboard on upgrades, but some of your more expensive and powerful units are worth investing in defensive upgrades for, or upgrades that boost their lethality in CC.



Hormagaunt with Str biomorphs, worth it ?


In my opinion, not really. They seem to work for some people, but personally I'd rather have a larger brood than S4. I tend to use hormies as early LoS blockers and harrassers and leave the serious killing to my rending troops. Your mileage may vary.



Also I saw someone mentioned that Flesh Hook could become important, should I consider getting that ?

I'd need to see exactly how the new rules for climbing buildings and such work. Generally flesh hooks are good on shock assault units ('stealers, CC warriors) but gaunts can usually prevail through numbers. The cool thing about hooks is that they allow you to treat vertically impassable terrain as difficult terrain, which can come in handy sometimes.

k-ruppt
25-06-2008, 05:47
What do you guys think about dropping extended carapace from Warriors or Genestealers in 5th?

Previously the conventional wisdom was that the save against bolter fire was worth the points. However, if gaunts can confer 4+ cover to stealers and warriors, the upgrade seems a bit unnecessary, not least of which because this cover save also protects against things that deny these units their 4+ save.

The points in favor would be that if you can successfully screen your assault warriors and 'stealers until they reach combat, you can potentially save a lot of points by not upgrading their armor. Stealers can spend those points on acid maw, scything talons, feeder tendrils, etc. Warriors are usually 5-10 points on the side of uncomfortably pricy for how easily killed they are and being able to leave carapace off without a noticeable drop in survivability will help their viability a great deal.

The downsides being that since 'stealers can't bounce from combat to combat, lack of carapace could get the whole brood wiped out by rapid fire once they polish off a unit. Possible countermeasures could include insuring that they have a supporting gaunt unit which could then consolidate in front or around them to provide cover saves.

Also if my opponent manages to get a clear shot at those broods, it's going to hurt. On the other hand, most of the things that move fast enough to make that clear shot early in the game (things like land speeders, eldar skimmers, etc) already mount AP4 weaponry and the situation isn't much different than it was in 4th.

I'd like to hear you guys' thoughts.

I would still take the EC for my CC warriors because when they get in combat i don't want them to wipe them out in first charge because as you said, rapid fire hurts, but i also don't want to take more wounds than needed and since they are probably my forward synapse they need to survive my enemy's attacks.
For my shooty warriors (deathspitters and such) i probably wont give them the EC because as you said they wont need it until the end of the battle and by then there's usually nothing left that shoots me. So the points saved can instead go to my meat shield who can attack back (bet u never heard of someone getting killed by the EC on a warrior :p)


Thanks for all the replies guys You guys talk about a lot of stuff I'm not familiar with since I barely played under 3rd edition and never played with 4th

As I was looking at my Warriors and my Codex I came up with this build, tell me if I should change anything :

I'll make two unit of 5 Warrior with Ws, Bs, Str and save biomorph.

-3 of them with Scything Talon and Devourer
-1 with Scything Talon and Deathspitter
-1 with Scything Talon and Venom Cannon

Then I'll probably use my remaining 5 Warriors to make Leaping CC Warrior with Talon and Rending Claw.

Should I loose the WS upgrade for the shooty Warrior or keep it for when I get into CC (or should they stay away from CC) ?

Do you guys get any upgrades for stealers? They become pricy fast with upgrades.

Hormagaunt with Str biomorphs, worth it ?

Also I saw someone mentioned that Flesh Hook could become important, should I consider getting that ?

Forget the WS for the shooty wariors, their shooty warriors after all;)
For stealers its all about personal preference, scuttle is always nice, EC now as mentioned before may be better to just go with cover save instead, flesh hooks are very helpful when assaulting into cover which happens alot for some reason and now since rending works on the 'to wound' roll and not the 'to hit' acid maw is basically like twin linking your genestealers :evilgrin:
Personally though i don't give my stealers any upgrades other than scuttle and flesh hooks unless they're in my Broodlord retinue and then i add acid maw and scyth talons

Skywave
25-06-2008, 06:31
Ok so no "all around" build for my 'nids, only goal-specific, that'll save me points on the long run :p

I've striped 5 Warriors now and tested my new color scheme on a few figs, so I should start building (or spawning) soon :)

gorgon
25-06-2008, 14:32
You seem to have massively misunderstood my post. It doesn't matter where and when the stealers come in, <snip>

You really don't need to go any farther than that. If you're really going to stand behind the statement that it makes no difference when or where the 'stealers enter the game, there's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise.

Panic all you want, but you really don't have as much to worry about as you think.

gorgon
25-06-2008, 14:57
I'll make two unit of 5 Warrior with Ws, Bs, Str and save biomorph.

-3 of them with Scything Talon and Devourer
-1 with Scything Talon and Deathspitter
-1 with Scything Talon and Venom Cannon

Then I'll probably use my remaining 5 Warriors to make Leaping CC Warrior with Talon and Rending Claw.

Should I loose the WS upgrade for the shooty Warrior or keep it for when I get into CC (or should they stay away from CC) ?

You could consider claws instead of the talons for only a couple points more. The extra attack from the talons would be better vs. some targets, but the claws would give you the chance to hurt some stuff you couldn't otherwise hurt. If you do that, then the WS makes sense because more hits equals more rends.

I mostly agree with zealousheretic, though...these Warriors are multi-purpose, and it might make more sense to specialize them for shooting. I'd consider some double-devourer Warriors, at least. You'd be rerolling misses and failed wounds...not shabby at all.

I think your leaping Warriors will be pretty good in 5th. Definitely get the WS upgrade. I'm not sure about the I upgrade anymore. It used to be useful for clearing kill zones before your opponent gets to strike, but that's going to be hard to do now. It might be best just sticking with WS, carapace and leaping.


Do you guys get any upgrades for stealers? They become pricy fast with upgrades.

The ones to look at are carapace, tendrils and hooks. As ZH said, sometimes it's not bad to invest some extra points on the right unit.


Hormagaunt with Str biomorphs, worth it ?

Some people swear by loaded Hormagaunts. Personally I think they are very fragile for the points cost. If you're going to have a decent amount of 'stealers and CC Warriors, I'd just run base Hormagaunts. Those other units will do your medium to heavy lifting.


Also I saw someone mentioned that Flesh Hook could become important, should I consider getting that ?

It's a consideration for your 'Stealers and your leaping Warriors. Don't take it on Gaunts.

Vepr
25-06-2008, 15:27
I think 5th will require more balance out of Nids. You can still run a Nidzilla army but you will be hurting on scoring units. You can still run a swarm army but armor could give you a hard time and victory points could punish you. It looks like it will pay to have a more balanced army.

k-ruppt
26-06-2008, 03:20
I think 5th will require more balance out of Nids. You can still run a Nidzilla army but you will be hurting on scoring units. You can still run a swarm army but armor could give you a hard time and victory points could punish you. It looks like it will pay to have a more balanced army.

most definately, my 'Nidzilla' army has only 54 gaunts in it i may just add in some spinegaunts in place of one Fex for holding objectives and such

Skywave
26-06-2008, 23:03
I mostly agree with zealousheretic, though...these Warriors are multi-purpose, and it might make more sense to specialize them for shooting. I'd consider some double-devourer Warriors, at least. You'd be rerolling misses and failed wounds...not shabby at all.
Yeah for now I'll go with the advice I got, and build more role-specific Warriors, unit dedicated to shooting, and another to CC. The double Devourer are an interesting choice though, maybe not for now, but when I'm done rebuilding and start to expand a bit more I'll give it a try! And probably by then the new 'nids Codex will be out, I have so many models to paint, gah :o


The ones to look at are carapace, tendrils and hooks. As ZH said, sometimes it's not bad to invest some extra points on the right unit.
That seems a sensible choice, and I'll probably go for it too since it's been recommended a few time (though I most likely won't model it for now). most of the 'standard' gun seems to be AP 5 so it would help them a lot to survive some gunning.


Some people swear by loaded Hormagaunts. Personally I think they are very fragile for the points cost. If you're going to have a decent amount of 'stealers and CC Warriors, I'd just run base Hormagaunts. Those other units will do your medium to heavy lifting.
I'll start with them with no upgrade now (gotta keep cost low, and number high!), and see how it go. If I feel I should pump them up later, it'll be more easy to add some pieces :D


It's a consideration for your 'Stealers and your leaping Warriors. Don't take it on Gaunts.
Again, I'll start without, and see after a few games (that's still far) if it's worth the ugly conversion (I hate Flesh hook :p).



Another question: I always had a hard time deciding what weapon to give to my Gaunts, and I like the 3 options we have.

I'm tempted to go with a unit with Devourer and Toxin sacs, I love the idea to get 'lots' of shots, re-roling to wound will help too and it have the longest range. Plus I don't know why but I love this weapon for some reason.

Fleshborer gain more strength and AP5, and they too re-roll to wounds. And it's cheaper too, so more models on table!

And Spinefist, twin-linked is good, but it's the cheaper Gaunt we can have, and that have it's advantage.

I could build a unit of each, but anyone have any experience with any of them and how did they perform overall ?

FunkyRatDemon
27-06-2008, 06:07
I'm tempted to go with a unit with Devourer and Toxin sacs, I love the idea to get 'lots' of shots, re-roling to wound will help too and it have the longest range. Plus I don't know why but I love this weapon for some reason.

Fleshborer gain more strength and AP5, and they too re-roll to wounds. And it's cheaper too, so more models on table!

And Spinefist, twin-linked is good, but it's the cheaper Gaunt we can have, and that have it's advantage.

I could build a unit of each, but anyone have any experience with any of them and how did they perform overall ?
Devourer + Toxin Sacs is almost worthless IMO, 10pts is far to much for a re-roleable to-wound shot. If using Devourer-gaunts, save the pts and leave at 7pts each. Most people don't even bother w/ them

Termagants are much more common, and for good reason. They IMO are the 'best' version of gaunts

Spinegaunts are a moving 'meat-shield', and I love 'em. I run 3 broods of 18-each in my 1850list (+2 2 borrods of 18 Termagants)

If you look at most lists, you'll see mostly Spine and Terma 'gaunts', Devourer-Gaunts see little/none play, same w/ Hormagaunts.


Don't bet on a new Tyranid codex anytime soon. At least another 3-4 years. Our current codex is fine, and with a simple FAQ we will survive

k-ruppt
27-06-2008, 15:16
I'm tempted to go with a unit with Devourer and Toxin sacs, I love the idea to get 'lots' of shots, re-roling to wound will help too and it have the longest range. Plus I don't know why but I love this weapon for some reason.

Fleshborer gain more strength and AP5, and they too re-roll to wounds. And it's cheaper too, so more models on table!

And Spinefist, twin-linked is good, but it's the cheaper Gaunt we can have, and that have it's advantage.

-I could build a unit of each, but anyone have any experience with any of them and how did they perform overall ?

i always run with 8-16 sized broods of deathgaunts w/ toxin sacs. at 16-32 shots a brood, they can lay down some impressive firepower and i can usually nock out around 3 marines on adverage for every brood shooting and by the time my hormagaunts get there, they can usually just mop up the left overs and consolidate into other things (although now they cant so it may not be as good a tactic anymore)


Devourer + Toxin Sacs is almost worthless IMO, 10pts is far to much for a re-roleable to-wound shot. If using Devourer-gaunts, save the pts and leave at 7pts each. Most people don't even bother w/ them

Termagants are much more common, and for good reason. They IMO are the 'best' version of gaunts

Spinegaunts are a moving 'meat-shield', and I love 'em. I run 3 broods of 18-each in my 1850list (+2 2 borrods of 18 Termagants)

If you look at most lists, you'll see mostly Spine and Terma 'gaunts', Devourer-Gaunts see little/none play, same w/ Hormagaunts.


Don't bet on a new Tyranid codex anytime soon. At least another 3-4 years. Our current codex is fine, and with a simple FAQ we will survive

-i would have to disagree with you on the deathgaunts, they are very much worth the points imo as i described above but if you take them you HAVE to take the full 10pts if you leave out the str bonus your going to be shooting with s2 guns and even with rerolls that wont kill much if anything.
-i agree with you on the spine trema gaunts, if you want to field massive amounts of broods these are the way to go
-i again have to disagree with the fact that few hormagaunts get used (maybe the people i play with always use them or the people you play with never use them) but squads that can get in assault by turn 2? (and if your extreeeemely lucky turn 1) yes please!

zealousheretic
28-06-2008, 07:42
Just assaulting on turn 2 isn't neccessarily enough. You need to win, or have synapse so you stay put if you lose.

Currently it can be tricky to provide synapse to a brood of hormies that launch a second turn assault. Combine that with their tendency to bounce off Space Marines, lose combat, and flee, and they start looking a bit too expensive for what they can do.

I really like the models, but I find these days I use only one brood of hormagaunts, if any. If used properly they can block LoS early on and start tying squads down, but they're just too expensive for a unit that's fairly fragile if shot and is only so-so in close combat.

If you use them, you have to support them with rending units, have the rending troops provide the kills and the hormies provide the numbers. This may work even better in 5e, with the hormagaunts engaging multiple units and a unit of warriors or raveners getting stuck in as well and doing the actual killing. It may also serve to shield elite units of mid-size tyranids from getting dogpiled by the reaction move.

Sometimes all it takes is a ravener or two to make sure they win combat. Leaping warriors will actually be able to keep up with them now so that will help too with providing synapse or some rending to help them win combat.

FunkyRatDemon
30-06-2008, 01:22
i always run with 8-16 sized broods of deathgaunts w/ toxin sacs. at 16-32 shots a brood, they can lay down some impressive firepower and i can usually nock out around 3 marines on adverage for every brood shooting and by the time my hormagaunts get there, they can usually just mop up the left overs and consolidate into other things (although now they cant so it may not be as good a tactic anymore)



-i would have to disagree with you on the deathgaunts, they are very much worth the points imo as i described above but if you take them you HAVE to take the full 10pts if you leave out the str bonus your going to be shooting with s2 guns and even with rerolls that wont kill much if anything.
-i agree with you on the spine trema gaunts, if you want to field massive amounts of broods these are the way to go
-i again have to disagree with the fact that few hormagaunts get used (maybe the people i play with always use them or the people you play with never use them) but squads that can get in assault by turn 2? (and if your extreeeemely lucky turn 1) yes please!

A 10pts Deathgaunt still dies like a 5pt spinegaunt...
And your paying so many more points when a Termagaunt already does the smae thing for 4lesss pts (less 6inches abd S in CC)

I just played in a 4th ed tournament today, 1500pts. 3 of the 16 players were Bugs, I played Chaos, each bug army died by Turn4. 2 of the armies run Deathgaunts, and they died in 1 round of shooting. We got to talking later, and they knew lots about 5th, they agreed that even w/ the 4+cover save they still aren't worth taking.

Hormagaunts are too expensive to take, and often don't do enough despite their large unit size. They are support units/finishers, and running 2units means too many points sunk here when they shoukd be spent buying a 'finisher'/'weakener'

gorgon
30-06-2008, 15:57
It may also serve to shield elite units of mid-size tyranids from getting dogpiled by the reaction move.

Yep, I think this will be key.


. Leaping warriors will actually be able to keep up with them now so that will help too with providing synapse or some rending to help them win combat.

This too.

Stingray_tm
30-06-2008, 18:44
I am doing extremely well with fielding 2*8 Hormagaunts together with 22 Genestealers and 2 single Raveners.

The enemy tends to ignore the Hormagaunts, because he is more afraid of the Stealers and other stuff an don't wants to waste his shots on small units, where he might overkill. So what happens is this: My Hormagaunts reach the enemy lines unharmed, but now i will hinder his shooty squads from firing at my other creatures. At the same time the Raveners arrive and deliver the deciding punch in the combat. 8 Hormas and a Ravener work perfectly well against Space Marine squads. I was surprised how well this tactic works.

It's very sad, that this will no longer work in 5th edition.

cochise
30-06-2008, 18:53
What are your thoughts about combined charges?
Letīs figure out that we assault with a unit of stealers/warriors/raverners and a gaunt/ripper unit. The assaulted unit can direct all hits to the gaunts/rippers and if they are able to withstand the assault (A 10 man MEQ squad or something like that) they will actually win combat because we feed them with a tarpit unit that will give away "easy" wounds. Itīs a version of the fantasy CC resolution.
In an extreme example, if a powerfist kills 3 bases because of instant death, that would mean 9 wounds towards combat resolution!!!! If they become extra wounds because synapse...then we can safely say that assaulting with the rippers was a bad idea.
I think it will be better to assault at different units with tarpit and specialized CC units, otherwise, the effectiveness of the last ones can be greatly decreased.
All in all, it doesnīt look well for rippers in this edition, and gaunts are certainly a bit worse than before.

Arkturas
03-07-2008, 13:19
For combined charges it depends on what you're up against (and 5th ed rules). If the opponent can only attack with a limited number of attacks (models with 1A each) or the Nids can kill the enemy with reasonable proficiency at a higher I value (so striking first) then combined charges are useful. Even the unwanted charging kill could be lessened by a gaunt screen consolidating to be a cover save providing blocker. Even losing wouldn't be too bad if wounds caused due to no retreat are given to a unit of your choice (gaunts soaking up those wounds then). It may even be preferable to lose and take additional casualties via gaunt killing than breaking the opponent and being shot. The question then is are lictors a worthwhile upgrade on raveners for the additional abilities, in some cases maybe.