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druchii
24-06-2008, 02:28
Hey guys!

Lately I've been trying to re-kindle my interest in fantasy (I've been spending time and money on 40k recently) and I've been doing alot of thinking about the game and how get myself back into it.

I've figured it out!
This is my Blood Dragon list, and it's actually an evolution of my Bretonnian list, fluffwise this represents my Undead Errantry War list a thousand years from the point that you see the current Bretonnian list represented.

Each of the four vampires is one of my four Paladins in the original list, while the ghouls are the debased remnants of the peasants that fought for the Bretonnian lord, the dire wolves are the undying steeds of the mounted yeomen (who have since been killed or dismembered). I've also got two Varghulfs represented by riderless (and very "undeaded") monsters, one is the oldschool empire griffon, while the other is Loncour's mount, the hippogryph. Finally, I've got a pair of fell bat units which are represented by my pegasus' (again, without riders).

I think the list is pretty cool thematically, but I'm wondering what YOU think of the list as it is?

Heroes/Lords-960
Vampire lord 380
Hellsteed
Infinite Hatred
Red fury
Summon creatures of the night
Balefire Spike
Walach's Bloody Hauberk

Vampire 205
Hellsteed
BSB
Avatar of Death
Walking Death
Sword of Might

Vampire 215
Hellsteed
The Hand of Dust
Avatar of Death
Infinite Hatred

Vampire 155
Ghoulkin
Avatar of Death
Talisman of the Lycni

Core-536
18 Ghouls-152
Ghast

18 Ghouls-152
Ghast

18 Ghouls-152
Ghast

5 Dire wolves-40

5 Dire Wolves-40

Special-200
5 Fell Bats-100

5 Fell Bats-100

Rare-350
Varghulf-175

Varghulf-175


I've actually got about 209 pts floating around that I haven't used (I somehow miscalculated the points total earlier!) and oddly enough I've played about four games with the list as is, against several 2250 lists (meaning I was playing without using 209pts) and have completely crushed the opposing armies.

What do you think I ought to change, the load out on the vampires is still pretty mutable, but I think the lord and the BSB are almost perfect, any help?

Thanks!

d

Slyde
24-06-2008, 02:57
Sorry, but vamps can't take dread knight then select any other mount, they have to ride the barded nightmare. See the Vamp FAQ.

druchii
24-06-2008, 03:16
Sorry, but vamps can't take dread knight then select any other mount, they have to ride the barded nightmare. See the Vamp FAQ.

Ekk, like I said, it's been a while since I've played fantasy.

Well that hurts my feelings. I assumed you could swap out one mount for the other (since I was paying the points anyway...) but that's a minor quibble.

Updating the list now:
Any other errors or pieces of advice to give?

Terrokhan
25-06-2008, 02:06
This is very different from most VC army lists people put up here. They always go for the skelies and necs with a caster vamp. Arnt you missing the major strengths of the vc army?

druchii
25-06-2008, 02:18
This is very different from most VC army lists people put up here. They always go for the skelies and necs with a caster vamp. Arnt you missing the major strengths of the vc army?

See,
I thought one of the strengths was having FOUR characters that can easily get first turn charges, backed up by two hatred toting, angry bat-monsters and a really decent magic phase (moreso if I spend more points on it). Not only that but in my recent games people have been so preoccupied with the flying hellsteeds of doom that the little guys (dire wolves and ghouls) have been getting across the board almost unscathed.

There really is something terrifying about being able to put a vampire lord with red fury, 4A and S7 on the charge almost anywhere I want him to be in the FIRST TURN of the game.

d

Azmazi
25-06-2008, 02:20
Its honestly a lot like my vamp list, and I dominate most players. Only difference is I take Black knights over fell bats (Honestly find that fell bats just suck in my opinion)

I honestly haven't really tried Vargs with a list like that, so it could work pretty well. Overall the one piece of advice I will give you is watch the hellsteeds, they can get picked off decently due to not being able to join units, at least with having 3 of them on it, it means they can't focus fire as much on a single one.

Terrokhan
27-06-2008, 01:56
hmmm, well the fact that 3 of your characters are flying does make this list seem very good. is your vamp lord tough enough to handle a BT or HE lord on a dragon?

druchii
27-06-2008, 02:36
hmmm, well the fact that 3 of your characters are flying does make this list seem very good. is your vamp lord tough enough to handle a BT or HE lord on a dragon?

It depends. If he charges he gets his whole number of attacks, at S7, with the Red Fury going off, while his homey the BSB (who tag teams almost every unit with him) will add a valuable +2 CR to the whole fight will be chilling in combat with him also.

Considering the vampire can eat most of anything by himself (add in some Van Hels...not that I can count on it, but it IS threatening) and be becomes really scary.

Keep in mind I've also got a vamp that can charge 18" herself, so she can hop into combat if she needs it.

d

PS. Can someone direct me to the rule that says I can't have a character on a Helsteed join a unit, I can't find it for the life of me.

Azmazi
27-06-2008, 06:43
Its the rule of a flying mount not being able to join a unit. I think thats under pg. 46? (rulebook is in car and too lazy to go run to it at moment) I know the rules for fast cav are on 48...so its between 30-51 if I remember right. As that covers formations, movement, and characters joining and leaving units. I could be wrong however on what page.

The Clairvoyant
27-06-2008, 12:15
Thats a nice list - very fluffy :)
The only thing that i'd change is get rid of AoD on the vamp lord. You've bought him magic armour, and a magic lance so all you're getting for the 20pts is a shield. I appreciate you might want the extra bit of saving throw as you won't have the barded mount, but its an expensive bit of armour. Personally, i'd exchange it for summon creatures of the night as you can ensure your bats stay alive and grow in size

EvC
27-06-2008, 14:51
Lol no wonder you've been destroying all-comers if you've been putting your Hellsteeds in units and charging out with them turn one :D

Really it's a good army, great theme. I'm quite surprised your Vamps don't die very easily though, not very good saves on them- but I guess you position them to avoid shooting. I use one Hellsteed Vamp myself, I love her to bits but she's so expensive. But can do evil evil things (Charging TK Chariots, destroying them all by herself, for example).

druchii
27-06-2008, 15:35
Lol no wonder you've been destroying all-comers if you've been putting your Hellsteeds in units and charging out with them turn one :D

Really it's a good army, great theme. I'm quite surprised your Vamps don't die very easily though, not very good saves on them- but I guess you position them to avoid shooting. I use one Hellsteed Vamp myself, I love her to bits but she's so expensive. But can do evil evil things (Charging TK Chariots, destroying them all by herself, for example).

Well,
to be honest sometimes I use magic to get first turn charges too.

Keep in mind all the vampires have a 3+ save and are VERY hard to shoot (I mean a 20" move and terrain make it pretty difficult) and in combat they can usually wipe their combat zone clean-although last game my BSB failed to kill an empire knight champion and failed both of his saves :wtf:

Thanks for the replies, and I might ditch AoD on the lord, I'll have to spend some time mulling over my options, I really didn't notice that I'm paying 20 pts for only +1 save, thanks!

ps. I'm still having no luck finding the "a dude on a flying mount may not join units" rule, maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but none of my opponents have found it either :(

EvC
27-06-2008, 16:14
Yeah that kind of thing with the Knight Champion can happen far too often, if it wasn't for the fact that most people simply don't realise how fragile a Hellsteed Vamp can be, then mine would die a whole lot more! The thing about mounted fliers not being able to join units is in there somewhere, it's actually in a pretty stupid place, not where you might expect to find it. I know the rule is there though, but there've been lots of occasions when I've not been able to find it either, despite knowing it's there! Try the flying section, characters section and monsters section... it's got to be there somewhere, right?!

druchii
27-06-2008, 18:15
Yeah that kind of thing with the Knight Champion can happen far too often, if it wasn't for the fact that most people simply don't realise how fragile a Hellsteed Vamp can be, then mine would die a whole lot more! The thing about mounted fliers not being able to join units is in there somewhere, it's actually in a pretty stupid place, not where you might expect to find it. I know the rule is there though, but there've been lots of occasions when I've not been able to find it either, despite knowing it's there! Try the flying section, characters section and monsters section... it's got to be there somewhere, right?!

I've checked all three. I see where dudes on monsters may not join units, where dudes on flying mounts may not join units of flyers, and where characters on single wound mounts CAN join units, but I can't find anything that says just because my horsie can fly (well, my vampires ride Nightmares, with flaming hooves and all...) they can't join units.

Although this will considerably alter the way I play with the list (alot more conservatively) I don't think It'll change much besides the fact that I'll drop two units of ghouls, the ghoulkin power, and load up on more magic to throw around some more skeleton-raising-goodness.

The game before last my lord absolutely demolished a treeman. Poor bugger got hit with 6 s7 attacks that were magical and flaming. Poof. Then he overran into a BSB on an eagle and the eagle put a wound on the vampire :(

But that's how my life goes!

As to the list:
What should I spend the other 200 pts on?
I'm still debating wheather or not I should buy another block of troops (which might be a good idea) or get more dire wolves or even a unit of knights (but the knights would break the theme of the army, I think).

I could also use the points to get blocks of zombies to try and pad my deployment, and bog my opponent down while my vampires take care of whatever else I want.

Thoughts?

d

g0ddy
27-06-2008, 22:01
Characters on monsters CAN join units... as long as theyre not flying monsters... or flying mounts (1w) for that matter. Imho a grey area starts to appear when you combine Dreadknight with Flying Horror... the vampire is not riding a flying horse per se the model however.. somehow flies :p

~ zilla

Loopstah
27-06-2008, 22:30
I've checked all three. I see where dudes on monsters may not join units, where dudes on flying mounts may not join units of flyers, and where characters on single wound mounts CAN join units, but I can't find anything that says just because my horsie can fly (well, my vampires ride Nightmares, with flaming hooves and all...) they can't join units.


We had a big discussion about this the other week.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147592

Azmazi
27-06-2008, 23:47
Yeah its one of those situations that just annoys people and sometimes it doesn't make sense. Like as long as it has ground movement you would think it could just walk with the unit, but in balance reasons its because you could just hide him for a few turns, then bust out flying over the table. Which would make a lot of units retarded in that sense too, moving bunker to deliver lance in butt rape system if you catch what I mean.

druchii
28-06-2008, 04:48
Yeah its one of those situations that just annoys people and sometimes it doesn't make sense. Like as long as it has ground movement you would think it could just walk with the unit, but in balance reasons its because you could just hide him for a few turns, then bust out flying over the table. Which would make a lot of units retarded in that sense too, moving bunker to deliver lance in butt rape system if you catch what I mean.

So now I just need to put him on a barded nightmare and get turn 2 charges
:( Seriously, though, while r****** a game today I had a good flip through the BRB and found the rule. Damnit.

Now that I see it it kinda hurts my appreciation for the army, and I'm thinking of making some drastic changes (like an ethereal scouting vampire to bust up warmachines) but I guess it's Ok. I still love the army, but I don't think I'll actually polish it off. It was distracting me from turning barbie dolls into demon princes for my 40k slaanesh demons list anyway....

thanks for your time!
d

Azmazi
28-06-2008, 05:47
Tbh 3 hellsteeds is still fine as they aren't large creatures so you can still hide them behind a unit and just fly right over at the right time. Thats why they are still pretty damn good for how cheap they are overall. Which means against certain armies you just wait a turn, on turn 2, fly over, march block the enemy, get some casting off, possibly get your units van hel's in, and enjoy.

I still say drop the fell bats and pick something else up, like say get summon ghouls powers, so you can keep the ghoul units up and running, and maybe even some grave guard or something else for the guy on foot to sit in. Could even just drop the fell bats and pick up 2 corpse carts with balefire, and have them babysit the ghouls right behind them possibly giving them ASF while the heroes go clean house and hit flanks/rears.

druchii
28-06-2008, 14:30
Tbh 3 hellsteeds is still fine as they aren't large creatures so you can still hide them behind a unit and just fly right over at the right time. Thats why they are still pretty damn good for how cheap they are overall. Which means against certain armies you just wait a turn, on turn 2, fly over, march block the enemy, get some casting off, possibly get your units van hel's in, and enjoy.

I still say drop the fell bats and pick something else up, like say get summon ghouls powers, so you can keep the ghoul units up and running, and maybe even some grave guard or something else for the guy on foot to sit in. Could even just drop the fell bats and pick up 2 corpse carts with balefire, and have them babysit the ghouls right behind them possibly giving them ASF while the heroes go clean house and hit flanks/rears.

Remember: I've got 200 pts extra to play with: I could get two corpse carts with ASF for the ghoulies if I felt like it.

I'm really hesitant to drop the felbats because I can use them to screen the vampires from basic shooting (and most warmachines) and I tend to use them to mop up warmachine crews while the vampires(and vargs) take care of other, scarier things. Not only that but the bats can add another little punch to the charge of the vampires if I need it while spreading the march blocking of the army further.

I see this army having alot of problems with lists like the new tzeentch demons and some really magic heavy armies because, possibly, the helsteeded vampires will be very succeptable to getting magic missiled to death, and that worries me. Although the bats will help prevent this to some degree I don't think they'll always be there to save my butt.

Is that the general concensus, corpse carts for the ghoulies, or another block of SOMETHING?
d

Azmazi
28-06-2008, 20:03
I would honestly say the corpse carts, just since you aren't magic heavy and the -2 modifier on their casting if you place the carts just right meaning your vampire might not be getting hit as often with missiles and the like.

druchii
30-06-2008, 02:17
I would honestly say the corpse carts, just since you aren't magic heavy and the -2 modifier on their casting if you place the carts just right meaning your vampire might not be getting hit as often with missiles and the like.

That's sort of what I was thinking because I've got some GREAT ideas for converting a pair of very bretonnian-like corpse carts. They might also help with the infantry blocks getting bogged down in combat.

thanks again!
d

EvC
30-06-2008, 11:09
Personally I loathe spending so many points on magic defence, cos it sucks when you fight an army with no magic. Though of course, it sure does help when you encounter Slanns, other Vamps, Teclis etc...

Azmazi
30-06-2008, 17:16
True, but the ASF the carts can give and other things also boosts the core overall as well. The magic defense is just a bonus.