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Arbiter7
25-06-2008, 04:35
Hi!

Suppose I've got an Empire Captain with the Silver Horn (enchanted item, bound spell that immediately rallies everyone).

Now suppose that his unit flees.

Can he use the Silver Horn while fleeing?

My guess would be no, but I'd like to check.

Bac5665
25-06-2008, 04:38
You cannot cast spells while fleeing. I don't have the book in front of me, so I don't know about other items, but I know no spells can be cast while fleeing, so that answers your example at least

Arbiter7
25-06-2008, 04:47
Plus another question,


suppose an empire captain has a magic sword and a pistol.

Does this count as two hand weapons?

Azmazi
25-06-2008, 04:54
I'm not completely sure on that one arbiter7, but I think it follows the same rule as an additional hand weapon and a magic weapon, which means the magic weapon must be used seperately from mundane weapons. So you could still shoot with the pistol in the shooting phase and etc, but in combat I believe you will just be using the sword.

Canadian_Khan
25-06-2008, 05:09
The rule is ( if my memory serves ) that when fleeing, the character does not count as beeing on the table... so I would say that he cannot use any of his magic items... with that said... a magic item that would make him fly still makes him fly... uhm... that question is harder than I tought..... Maybe we could figure that if the magic object is automatic ( gives fly... immunes to terror... etcetc ) they're part of the character... if he has to USE it... then it doesn't work. Just my thoughts...

For the second question... the rules normaly says that you have to use a magic weapon as soon as you have one...so you gotta use your magic sword in close combat... but like another said before me... a sword doen't shoot, so I figure you can shoot with the pistol.

The Red Scourge
25-06-2008, 05:51
suppose an empire captain has a magic sword and a pistol.

Does this count as two hand weapons?

In short "No!"

What people generally misunderstand, is that magic weapons are "hand weapons", but in fact they're in a separate category of their own called "magic weapons", and there are no combination bonus'es for magic/hand weapons.

Some "magic weapons" though have special notes, that they also belong in another category, these are most commonly lances, spears and great weapons., but this is mentioned in the individual item description. :)

BloodiedSword
26-06-2008, 00:22
The Red Scourge - what you seem to misunderstand is that magic weapons are not "hand weapons" unless explicitly stated! They are not in any special category at all. It's quite the converse - they are just "weapons" that happen to be magic. It is the term "hand weapon" that is a special category.

Back on the original question - to cut through the quagmire of conflicting and erroneous opinions, here is page 120.


Fleeing models cannot use any magic items that are one use only, bound items and similar magic items that require a decision on when to activate their powers.

Griefbringer
26-06-2008, 08:38
They are not in any special category at all. It's quite the converse - they are just "weapons" that happen to be magic.

Alternatively, one could argue that every magic weapon is a special category of its own, since they all have their own particular set of special rules.

Condottiere
26-06-2008, 09:09
I wish it's stated which mundane category magic weapons fit in. It would remove a great deal of frustration.

BloodiedSword
26-06-2008, 20:28
Griefbringer - I suppose you could think of it that way, but I prefer to think of "Magic" as being a property (in the same way as "Requires 2 Hands", for example). I think of the categories such as "Hand Weapon" or "Halberd" as being the categories, which is convenient because it means that any weapon is in at most one category.

Condottieri - in general, it is stated what type a magic weapon is. If nothing is stated then it simply has no type and does not benefit from any of the special weapon rules (and therefore may not use the HW+S parry bonus, for example).

_Lucian_
26-06-2008, 20:46
Um page 121 BRB: "A character that has a magic close combat weapon cannot use any other close combat weapons, although it can carry a shield as normal"

So take what you will from that, i see two trains of thought:

1) a pistol can be used in close combat therefor it cannot be taken, it also is in the section of equipment for other close combat weapons. (although it is an and/or option indicating you can take that and another mundane weapon)

2) a pistol can be used to shoot in the shooting phase, so aslong as i dont use it in close combat its fine, therefor you can use both seperatly.

I personally fall in section 1, as it seems to fit with my understanding of warhammer better, (although this is obviously biased to my previous experiences of rules debate) and if someone tried to argue the RAW then i would let them take it.

Nurgling Chieftain
26-06-2008, 21:05
The rule you're quoting, _Lucian_, does not prevent you from having other close combat weapons, but just from using them.

theunwantedbeing
26-06-2008, 21:17
Page 120
A model fleeing cannot use any magic item that does not have a pernamnent effect

A magic sword plus a pistol doesnt work.
You are forced to use the magic sword on it's own.
As per the rule for magic weapon's on
Page 121

Magical weapons are not hand weapons unless epcifically stated to be.
So very few magic weapons are actually hand weapons.

_Lucian_
26-06-2008, 21:41
Yes Nurgling Chieftain you are right, it does. However you can have the weapon, but the rule on page 121 states by an interpretation of RAW that you cannot use it. Such contradictions are common to all GW products and unfortunatly mostly overide the logic or fluff of a game.

T10
26-06-2008, 23:22
Fleeing models cannot use magic items that are one-use only, bound items or similar magic items that require a decision on when to activate their powers. Only magic items whose effects are permanent still work for fleeing models.

-T10

Nurgling Chieftain
27-06-2008, 22:30
However you can have the weapon, but the rule on page 121 states by an interpretation of RAW that you cannot use it.He certainly can't use it in HtH while he's still got a magic close combat weapon! I would argue that he could still shoot it, though I suppose that could be debated, I don't see much point in claiming otherwise. In addition, however, he could use it in HtH if his magic weapon were destroyed.


Such contradictions...In this particular case, I do not see any contradiction.

_Lucian_
28-06-2008, 08:47
Im not going to rule lawyer it is i personally agree with you and would let him use it, however if someone said to me that the rule 'cannot use any other close combat weapon' was not limited to any phase of the game CC/ shooting/ moving (S&S) i would let them have it as technically i would see thats what its says RAW, although i try to shun away from RAW in some circumstances.

The contradiction i was on about is related to the 'you cannot use this weapon' and the 'there is no rule saying you cannot take it'. So seems silly that they would allow you to waste points on items you cannot use, therefor the rules contradict.

Loopstah
28-06-2008, 17:37
The contradiction i was on about is related to the 'you cannot use this weapon' and the 'there is no rule saying you cannot take it'. So seems silly that they would allow you to waste points on items you cannot use, therefor the rules contradict.

If your magic weapons is destroyed or made mundane then you could then use the other mundane weapons.

So the enemy destroys your sword of killing but you bought a great weapon as well so get to whack them at +2 str, or can now get the +1 attack if you had an extra hand weapon in your back pocket.

_Lucian_
29-06-2008, 10:23
I do understand the issue of a magic weapon destroyed and having a back up mundane. however i personally didnt see it as the question originally posted by arbiter. Im more curious of the opinions and counter arguments relating to shooting a pistol and using a magic hand weapon and so have focused my comments around that...

Condottiere
29-06-2008, 10:35
The OP question is answered.

As regards to optional weapon upgrades, as long the AB entry allows the character to purchase any specific combination of weapons, he can do so. If the character also upgrades to a magic weapon, he is forced to use that weapon in lieu of any mundane one, in the relevant turn phase,; eg a magic bow in the shooting phase, and a magic sword in the close combat phase. If for some reason the magic weapon becomes unavailable in that phase, the player may choose another mundane weapon.

Loopstah
29-06-2008, 11:57
I do understand the issue of a magic weapon destroyed and having a back up mundane. however i personally didnt see it as the question originally posted by arbiter. Im more curious of the opinions and counter arguments relating to shooting a pistol and using a magic hand weapon and so have focused my comments around that...

"A Character that has a magic close combat weapon cannot use any other close combat weapons..."

If you look at the weapons section under "Close Combat Weapons" you will see Pistol (Hand to Hand) listed.

You may not use a pistol as listed under "Close Combat Weapons" if you have a magic close combat weapon as the above rule forbids this.

If you look at the weapons section under "Missile Weapons" you will see Pistol (Shooting) listed.

You may use a pistol as listed under "Missile Weapons" as the above rule does not forbid you from using a Missile Weapon if you have a magic close combat weapon.

_Lucian_
29-06-2008, 19:28
I understand what you are saying, but if someone argued to me that: The pistol is still a "close combat weapon" i would have to agree and let them take it, the rule doesnt accomodate for the hybrid weapon types which count as both. So being a missile weapon doesnt overide the fact its a close combat weapon and so would follow:

""A Character that has a magic close combat weapon cannot use any other close combat weapons..."

That sentance no where says "only in close combat", it simply says 'use'...

As i read it your correct in that you can use missile weapons and magic cc weapons, however the pistol is still a cc weapon no matter how you look at it. Its also an item listed amongst the other cc weapons, not missile weapons although that is by no means a deciding point.