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Braad
25-06-2008, 08:32
---EDIT---

Before any further reading, please understand that this is not about fixing trolls stupidity for an O&G or other existing army, but to make an army of only trolls work on itself. It seemed to be a bit unclear below.

---End EDIT---

Now this is something that's been nagging me a bit lately.
Why do Trolls have Leadership 4 to test their stupidity on?
Now I understand that they want to make them stupid, but anything so stupid that they cannot do anything but walking like an ass 5 out of 6 times is is not likely to survive the evolutionary process for long, is it?
Also having Trolls nearly automatically flee if, for example, they loose combat from a bunch of spearmen by just one point seems a bit of to me.

Now, of course, there is some deep underlying thought to this thread. The main reason being me playing with the idea of writing a small Troll armylist with some special rules, this due to owning more and more Trolls at the moment, and planning even more for the future. However, an army that has to huddle around one general to be able to do anything is just no fun.

So I have been thinking of some solutions.
The first and most obvious was just to raise Trolls to leadership 8, which, for me, sounds more logical for a big ugly beast that wants to smash some skulls.
The second, maybe detach the Trolls stupidity from its leadership, and make it more like "roll a dice (or two), and on a 1 (or 4 or less), they are stupid" with maybe a few modifiers to it. Like when the enemy is near and they smell fresh human flesh, they are less likely to be stupid.

Well, that's what I came up with. But maybe any other ideas from you guys?

By the way, the list I have in mind will look something like this:

Heroes:
Troll Lord (Dire Troll Mauler from privateer press)

Core:
3 Common Trolls
3 River Trolls
3 Stone Trolls
4 Stone Trolls

Special:
1 Stone Troll bolt thrower (Old Stone troll model holding one club and one stone which will be given a spear chukka, idea stolen from the discworld series :evilgrin:)

Rare:
Stone Troll Giant (the huge Stone Troll one produced by Forgeworld)

For the Troll Lord I'm also thinking to give him sort of gifts, instead of magic items (which I don't think of including) just like some trolls are stone trolls, and others are river trolls. There also might be a Troll wizard some time in the future, and one or two more specials, so any ideas on this are also welcome.

ehlijen
25-06-2008, 08:48
Most stupidity (or leadership) problems can be avoided through generals and characters. Yes, that means babysitting. While not liking ld 4 is fair (though I still maintain that the designers probably knew what they were doing) doubling it to 8 which is supposedly veteran trooper status is asking for a lot. Especially if you can easily do that by keeping a black orc general nearby. Ld 8 trolls would need to be quite a bit more expensive.

As for an all troll army, do we need that when we have ogres you could proxy them as?

Condottiere
25-06-2008, 09:00
That is the obvious solution, since a lot of units with abysmal leadership have to be within the 12"of the general, if you are planning any prolonged operations with them. That, of course, excludes any one-off kamikaze attacks and/or diversions.

Fluff-wise, trolls aren't renowned for being great intellectuals or deep philosophers, nor olympic gymnasts. They are big, dumb, clumsy eating machines. You should play them that way. ;)

Arnizipal
25-06-2008, 11:28
Trolls survived evolution because they're huge and powerful monsters that can regenerate. So even if their stupidity kills them, they'll just wake up the next day, fully healed and ready to make the same mistakes. :D

I do agree however, that Ld 4 is a pain in break/psychology tests. Being powerful monsters, Trolls shouldn't flee that easily.

How about this for a solution:

Troll see, Troll do
When Trolls gather in packs for fights, they all focus on doing the same thing (moving in the same direction, fighting the same enemy,...). Because they have a constant reminder on what to do around (that is, the other Trolls in the unit), they won't be overcome by Stupidity that easily. For each additional Troll in a unit, the unit gains +1Ld (to a maximum of +3).


This makes Troll units quite a bit better, so their price should go up accordingly.

Chaos Mortal
25-06-2008, 11:35
im not sure about doubling their Leadership however if you add another one or two heros to the list it might improve.

To be honest though i love trolls but im not sure an army of the works, though the concept is quite nice.

xinsanityx
25-06-2008, 11:42
I love trolls the way they are. They're dirt cheap for what they do. 5 trolls are cheaper than a giant and hit much harder and stay around alot longer than a giant. A Ld9 general should make all your stupidity problems go away, and if you're really worried about stupidity take Gorbad Ironclaw. I've had alot of success with Gorbad and trolls in the same army. His ability to project his high leadership from far distances makes Trolls very flexible.

I would hate for a Trolls leadership to go up, because that would mean that their points cost would go up.

Braad
25-06-2008, 11:49
How about this for a solution:

Troll see, Troll do
When Trolls gather in packs for fights, they all focus on doing the same thing (moving in the same direction, fighting the same enemy,...). Because they have a constant reminder on what to do around (that is, the other Trolls in the unit), they won't be overcome by Stupidity that easily. For each additional Troll in a unit, the unit gains +1Ld (to a maximum of +3).


This makes Troll units quite a bit better, so their price should go up accordingly.

Now, this is really a very nice idea. I'll note it down...

@ ehlijen
Well, I don't know if you need it, but I like the idea. And come on, ogres? No regeneration on trol models? I really like the trolls and their special rules, that's the whole point of this. Also, its just intended for a bit of fun play a few times, don't take it all to serious.

I'd like to stick to one character, or maybe a wizard extra, simply because its just a fun army and I don't want to have to paint several models that I can't use in the real armies.
The bolt thrower Troll will just be a Troll, the giant troll will be a, well... a giant.

Also, I plant to go beast of chaos, and then I get chaos trolls. Even more trolls... I just have to do something with them.

@ xinsanityx
Cheap? I always consider them correctly prices, since they are powerfull, but if the babysitter is killed, you got a problem. Anyway, do remember that if you only have trolls, they fulfill a different roll in the army, and the general even becomes more powerfull.

Entreri Bloodletter
25-06-2008, 17:20
Trolls are fine, for common trolls at 40 points a piece they are great. Yeah Ld 4 sucks but keep them near your general or put a babysitter in the unit and you have a tough unit to kill that dishes out the damage as well.

And yes if your general dies their pretty much worthless but then again you are in serious trouble anyway if your general dies.

theunwantedbeing
25-06-2008, 17:23
Put the general near them, end of problem.

Anvilbrow
25-06-2008, 17:31
I think it would fit the fluff and take care of the issue by allowing an upgrade to troll units, just like rat ogres, a "packmaster" of sorts. Put a ld 7 Orc behind them with a whip (like a bully). Tests are made on his leadership. There is obviously a big precedent for this in DE (hydra), Skaven (packs), OnG (squig herders, war machines), LM (sallies), even Dwarfs (engineer upgrades).

They can operate with a reasonable chance of success on their own, but are still far better within range of the general.

Makaber
25-06-2008, 17:36
It's part of the package, like it or not. Learn to deal with it. Frankly I think it's a silly trend that the community keeps crying out for a "fix" of everything that's inconvenient. If you want a reliable army, don't play orcs.

Weldo Rubin
25-06-2008, 17:48
Another Core/Special Unit could be Trolls throwing stones. You've got at least three models to represent these. Fast Strength 5 Missile Unit with a Range of, say, 13"?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
25-06-2008, 17:58
It's part of the package, like it or not. Learn to deal with it. Frankly I think it's a silly trend that the community keeps crying out for a "fix" of everything that's inconvenient. If you want a reliable army, don't play orcs.

Amen, Hell Yeah, Word, You Go Girl, and last but not least Tell Like It Is Brother to that!

Trolls are immensely powerful for their cost. Either harder to hit, or hard as well, rock to hurt. Plus, enemy Cavalry tend to end up being puked on left right and centre. Hilarious against Chaos Chosen I find!

Leave Trolls be. The 'Troll See, Troll Do' rule doesn't really bear out, as what if one Troll decides, in it's infinite wisdom, that sitting down and eating Daisies is the best thing to do in a given situation.....

Orcs and Goblins are an army designed for FUN. They are a challenge to use, despite appearances. Please don't take away my challenges. I like them. They help me become a better player by winning in spite of them.

Shimmergloom
25-06-2008, 18:32
Let's all tell dark elf players that if they don't want to deal with cold ones then don't play dark elves.

Malorian
25-06-2008, 18:37
Let's all tell dark elf players that if they don't want to deal with cold ones then don't play dark elves.

I do! Kinda...

If they don't want to deal with coldones then just don't use the coldones.

With the trolls though that is really a HORRIBLE leadership. You can keep them near your general, but in big games that isn't always an option.

That's the main problem I have. I don't think units should get better or worse just because of the game size.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
25-06-2008, 18:57
Let's all tell dark elf players that if they don't want to deal with cold ones then don't play dark elves.

Quite so. Don't want Cold Ones, there is this little known off shoot of the Elven race called High Elves.

They aren't as spiky, but they are a whole lot less challenging and satisying to use.

Shimmergloom
25-06-2008, 19:05
I guess more and more people are taking you up on your advice and not using these multiple units that you feel we should just not use in our army books instead of hoping or expecting GW to make the army books useful, instead of busily power creeping everything else up.

Except instead of switching to another army, they are giving their money to Warmachine.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
25-06-2008, 19:12
Shyeah. Your right. Warmachine has such a massive following....

Trolls are useful. Cold Ones are useful. All it takes is a little though.

If you struggle with the concept of a unit which requires said thought, then I suspect you probably struggle with the concept of any game being impossible to balance due to one player, by necessity, being better than their opponent.

Tell you what. Why don't you go and play snap? Oh. Not balanced either. Neithers Chess. Hardly a fair game if someone is better than you. Only way to get a fair game is to clone yourself and your though patterns, then use identical forces on a mirror image battlefield. Oh no. Hold on. We're dealing with dice, and thus, chance and luck play their part.

So no balanced games.

Shimmergloom. If you have nothing constructive to add to a thread, don't bother posting.

ZeroTwentythree
25-06-2008, 19:25
I played an army of all gobbos, supplemented with a few trolls for years and never really had a big problem with the trolls. As someone else already said, it means babysitting them. But that's part of the trade-off with trolls.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
25-06-2008, 19:27
Don't think of it as a Babysitting Character.

Think of it as a really hard Bodyguard for your Character.

Braad
25-06-2008, 19:58
Okay, maybe I didn't really get my intention clear in my starting post.
Its true that I dislike the low Leadership of trolls, but I did not mean to fix it for the O&G army. Hell, I love my O&G army, including the trolls, and understand that any army has its up and downs.
I'll edit my first message to make my intentions clearer then...

What I meant on fixing, is how the trolls stupidity works for an army that has ONLY stupid trolls and no orcs, gobbo's or whatever to keep them in line, and where it is not possible to keep all those within range of just one general. With only Ld4 models with stupidity this would end up in a lot of nothing... And that's what I want to avoid.

Anyway, Arnizipal really gave a good idea, and I think I'll add a sort of a champion upgrade that has +1 on its leadership stat and that combined should solve the problem.
I'm also gonna note down the idea Weldo Rubin gave me. I'll just check what the BRB says on thrown weapons and see what to make of it.

Shimmergloom
25-06-2008, 20:08
Tell you what. Why don't you go and play snap? Oh. Not balanced either. Neithers Chess. Hardly a fair game if someone is better than you. Only way to get a fair game is to clone yourself and your though patterns, then use identical forces on a mirror image battlefield. Oh no. Hold on. We're dealing with dice, and thus, chance and luck play their part.

So no balanced games.

Shimmergloom. If you have nothing constructive to add to a thread, don't bother posting.

Yeah why don't you add constructive posts rather than just telling players to use other armies or not using entire units out of their books rather than expecting the money they spent on models and army books to be well written and have some semblence of balance rather than just super powering each new book and release?

And how about you actually start playing against armies before you tell people they are balanced?

Maybe when you start doing these things instead of just blowing people's concerns off with, 'oh just play something else then' then you might have an iota of ground to stand on when you tell me to not post in a thread.

nurgle_boy
25-06-2008, 20:11
In an O&G force, trolls should be left as is, however, an entire troll army could use some changes to make it playable... as arnizipal says, a rule like that, or even, a LD upgrade for a champion type...

Arnizipal
25-06-2008, 21:05
Leave Trolls be. The 'Troll See, Troll Do' rule doesn't really bear out, as what if one Troll decides, in it's infinite wisdom, that sitting down and eating Daisies is the best thing to do in a given situation.....
I know there's nothing really wrong with Trolls. I was just throwing out ideas for Braad's all-Troll army.

I regularly fielded Trolls against my High Elf opponent (until he moved to Sweden that is). Trolls make much better pin-cushins that Giants. :D

BloodiedSword
25-06-2008, 21:05
The problem with Trolls are that they are specifically designed to be a high maintenance unit that is added to other armies. Their rules are designed around the fact that they are ridiculously stupid when they don't have a babysitter.

Still, if you want to make a Troll Army Book you might start by adding some kind of Troll Handler type thing who is small and fragile but can increase the leadership of nearby Trolls (maybe for purposes of Stupidity tests only? Or maybe everything).

theunwantedbeing
25-06-2008, 21:18
Failing that just take your stupidity tests on 1d6 in an armymade entirely of trolls.
Ld4 doesnt seem quite so bad when rolling only 1 dice does it?

Trolls handlers is a rediculous notion, they'de be eaten by the trolls they are trying to handle.

ZeroTwentythree
25-06-2008, 21:51
OK, I get the troll army thing now.

However, I don't see why they would suddenly get brighter because they are on their own. :eyebrows:

Storak
25-06-2008, 22:34
Orcs and Goblins are an army designed for FUN.

this is total nonsense. they are an army like all the other ones.

it doesn t say "funny" on the back of my army book.

a single look at the special chars pictures will show you, that they are doing serious business.

the OP asked a question about a PURE troll army. with stupdity and Ld 4, that would obviously be NOT funny.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
25-06-2008, 23:17
I dunno. 20 to 30 dim creatures wandering around puking on stuff has comedic charm

BloodiedSword
26-06-2008, 00:29
Trolls handlers is a rediculous notion, they'de be eaten by the trolls they are trying to handle.

Well, Skaven manage it with Rat Ogres so it's not that far fetched a notion.


a single look at the special chars pictures will show you, that they are doing serious business.

Orcs and Goblins: SERIOUS BUSINESS.

I couldn't help myself :p

theunwantedbeing
26-06-2008, 00:35
Well, Skaven manage it with Rat Ogres so it's not that far fetched a notion.

Rat ogres arent trolls though.
That and a troll army isnt really a troll army if it's "herded" into battle by a bunch of handlers.

Condottiere
26-06-2008, 01:31
I dunno. 20 to 30 dim creatures wandering around puking on stuff has comedic charmI see you've been pub-crawling.;)

Trolls are just stupid, there's really no way around it. An all troll army isn't really workable, not with rules as they are.

pcgamer72
26-06-2008, 04:25
this is total nonsense. they are an army like all the other ones.

it doesn t say "funny" on the back of my army book.


That made me laugh out loud. Orcs and Goblins are commonly seen as a fun army to play with and against it seems, but that doesn't mean then shouldn't be competitive!

Braad
26-06-2008, 06:12
Oh my, what have I unleashed...
Trolls and crawling home after a good night drinking?
I did actually nearly bought a couple of drunken snotlings from ebay...

AlmightyNocturnus
26-06-2008, 07:09
"Why do Trolls have Leadership 4 to test their stupidity on?
Now I understand that they want to make them stupid, but anything so stupid that they cannot do anything but walking like an ass 5 out of 6 times is is not likely to survive the evolutionary process for long, is it?"

This is the funniest fugging thing I`ve read this week. Maybe this rule is a bit harsh for trolls, but I do know some people who match this description. Thank you, Braad.

Almighty Nocturnus

Lewis
26-06-2008, 11:06
Trolls aren't really viable for an army, unlike ogres they're essentially animals without community and leaders etc. This is why they have leadership 4, because they can be driven off like a bear can be driven away by throwing rocks at it.

Having said this does anyone remember the battle in the Dark Omen game against the stone trolls? That was pretty fun and might make a good basis for a one off game, but then I'd just try and field all the trolls I could, or have the special rule I'm a troll, rolly-ol where models were redeployed at the board edge after death rather than aiming for an army list.

Another cool thing might be to play battle in Troll Country with two normal armies and a pile of trolls wandering around the board attacking anything within reach.

I'm sorry to go off topic but I think troll armies are a bit unfluffy and difficult to convert to what you want.

Of course you could just lower the points cost of the models some more to acknowledge the lack of leadership boosts and fielda huge swathe of moronic, fleeing, regenerating, vomiting monsters.

de Selby
26-06-2008, 11:58
I like the idea of a troll army, and I think it would be nice if it actually functioned as an army (without having to keep all of the models right by the general).

I'd suggest leaving basic trolls as they are in the OG list (a troll is a troll is a troll) but adding a not-too-powerful, not-too-expensive troll hero choice with better leadership and a rule that nearby trolls can use it. Fluffwise these 'troll chiefs' are slightly brighter, more independent trolls who don't appear in O&G armies because they don't associate with non-trolls. Armywise they would actually allow the army to function as more than one independently manouevreable unit.

Would all need playtesting and costing.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
26-06-2008, 12:00
Oh my, what have I unleashed...
Trolls and crawling home after a good night drinking?
I did actually nearly bought a couple of drunken snotlings from ebay...

Crawling? Crawling?????

Nah. We just put Ads in a shopping trolley and let gravity do the rest.

Braad
26-06-2008, 12:14
I don't think gravity would work here. You'd get halfway home and then you'd have to wait for some cosmic gravity flip or something, to get the thing rolling in the right direction... Places tend to be quite flat here in the Netherlands.

@ Lewis
About converting, well, I will convert only two models, of which one I will convert anyway, so that's no problem. And the other will be the chief. And the conversion I plan on doing will hopefully include something to show him rgenerating a scopped of hand or something...
My main problem is, I can't resist all those cool models...

In the end, the whole thing is just meant to gather up all my trolls and everything that lookes like one together and smash some skulls.
I might try the idea of just a whole bunch of them without anything special though. It sounds sort of goofy, and that is one of the things I like most.

And fluff, aah, well, isn't all fluff in this game coming from a twisted brain somewhere?
And I guess my brain is twisted enough to add a bit to this.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
26-06-2008, 12:26
Ooooh...I know!
Trolls are normally fairly violent when the mood takes them...so, when wanting to charge, take your Stupidity test then with the following modifier.....

For every full inch the enemy is within your charge reach by, add this to your Leadership. Represents the Trolls actually noticing the enemy and realising they are in fact slightly peckish after all. Cap it out if need be, say at Ld9, and then take from there.

Braad
26-06-2008, 12:54
Ow, very nice one!

Maybe I can do some combination. Bigger Troll units give +1 for each Troll after the first as a bonus on stupidity capped at +2, being in short range for a charge gives an additional +1, having a champion (which will be expensive) another +1. So the maximum will be 8, which I will try to keep as a maximum, since I don't want to cancel out the stupidity.
I think by using half distance this also prevents most troubles with pre-measuring I think, since stupidity is done at the start of the turn, and not when charges are made, and if you measure if someone is 11" away on a charge range of 12" gives troubles (because it makes it easier to announce succesful charging), while checking if he's 6" away is not so dangerous. But I'll give it some more thought.
Also, I don't think the bonus should apply to any other leadership tests, to represent the bestial nature of the trolls (as is mentioned above).

Anyway, I also had this bit of inspiration on fluff:
Some kind of wizard guy (maybe a chaos dwarf or dark elf or something) has crafted some kind of magic talisman which attracts trolls. Or maybe he found it in some deep dungeon. So he will be the general. If he dies, the trolls start doing weird stuff.

Or:
Some huge troll lord, never seen before (that's why no other armies of trolls exist), risen from some deep cave in the chaos wastes. There is only one, so you can never pick more then one character in this army.
For him also, if he dies (which should obviously be hard) the troll army starts to disband, with trolls that act stupid walking directly towards the closest table edge instead of straight forward half movement, and a negative leadership modifier every turn after the turn in which the general is killed.

Urgat
27-06-2008, 08:31
Aaaah, an all troll army :) I'd have proxied that with ogres, but these silly buggers don't puke, and a non pucking troll ain't no troll. Giving up on regenerating, ok, but not puking :p

Other than that, it's rather easy to make up new kind of trolls.

Let's say normal trolls are core
You put river and stone trolls as special (ever wondered why river trolls couldn't move in water, btw?). Not options, definite troops.

Now you add, dunno...
forest troll (rare): count all difficult "dry" terrains as if they were normal(spider rider wallcrawler rule, in fact). Give it some sort of other benefit, but make it vulnerable to fire like treemen -> a wood troll ought to REALLY hate fire, say.

Hill troll (core): slightly smarter than the usual (like a giant). Can use some equipment (would be to a normal troll what an irongut is to a bull)

cave troll (special): +1 initiative, -1 Ld (let's guess what this comes from :p). It looks kindda like a mushroom shaped troll and moves 3D6. Doesn't declare charges, skirmishes (well, like hoppers), unit size 1-3

Mountain troll (core): lives in metal mines, a usual foe of the dwarfs, many have been chopped down by slayers; its skin is encrusted with fragments of metals: 3+ scaly skin save, can have gromril crust upgrade (save improved to 2+). Moutain trolls are stubborn (yeah I know, stubborn on Ld4...)

I'd add snotlings just for fun. I can see idiots sticking together, so I can see snotlings following trolls around. Or trolls following snotlings around, who knows?
Don't count as core

I'll spare you the silly things like lava trolls and so on :p

Magic: No magic at all, but take this rule
Rebound: roll a D6 per stone troll unit in the army, when an enemy spell is successfully dispelled. On a 6, the dispelled spell is casted back to the enemy(yeah, somewhat like in 5th edition, don't remember the name of the card). Can only be rebound once, even if you get more than one 6.
You get one dispell dice per unit of stone troll, too.


Just having fun there, I didn't think half a second for all that, really, so it's probably all very stupid.


Having said this does anyone remember the battle in the Dark Omen game against the stone trolls?

Yeah, but then again, it's was different coz:
1) they came one by one, not in units (thank god, coz for some reason they're super tought in DO, if you don't flank/rear charge them, they'll stick forever)
2) they didn't suffer from stupidity

T'was actually a remake of a mission in Shadow of the Horned Rat where, additionaly, for some reason, they caused terror too xD

sulla
27-06-2008, 09:06
For the Troll Lord I'm also thinking to give him sort of gifts, instead of magic items (which I don't think of including) just like some trolls are stone trolls, and others are river trolls. There also might be a Troll wizard some time in the future, and one or two more specials, so any ideas on this are also welcome.

I'd probably give the lord Ld8 and a Great yell special rule or somesuch evocative rule to allow his Ld bonus to work over an 18" range.

I might also consider a pregame shamble forward for all units to help balance out how disrupted the army will become due to stupidity and to compensate for being a slowish army with little to no ranged attack.

Characters should be smart enough to hurl stones at the enemy and troll shamans are not out of the question either, although their magic would not be as advanced as the 8 rulebook lores. Far more simplistic like gut magic. Easy to cast, easy to dispel, straightforward effects that would amaze the simple intellect of the average troll. Perhaps a lot of flaming effects. Or increased regen/ranged vomit templates etc.

Since troll hordes would most likely be found in the wastes above Kislev I would suggest mutations rather than abilities. But being creatures of chaos (although not neccesarily 'chaotic', you might be tempted to add a small list of magical weapons and talismans infused with the power of the trolls gruesome deities.

Other than that, my suggestion would be to work within the framework of the basic troll rules... search for a way to make a troll horde work while not changing the basic ideas behing them. In the warhammer world, they are stupid, cowardly beasts who regenerate and vomit. Obviously with characters, they will be better led, but stupidity is a core theme so make your army work despite the stupidity, rather than finding ways to negate it. Similarly, for characters may have better regen and or more powerful vomit attacks.

Sounds like a fun project. Good luck.

p.s. Just thought of a special choice; troll veterans. Call them 'Skarguard' hideously skarred old trolls who have survived attacks that would kill a lesser troll. regen on a 3+ and vs fire they still regen on a 5+... Should be easy enough to model... just trolls with greenstuff burns or skars all over them.

Braad
27-06-2008, 10:13
Hmmm, forest trolls... I already had some conversionplans about them when just started with the hobby by converting those old metal wood elf dryad/treekin things (where on 40mm bases).

I'll give all these ideas some consideration.

And indeed, I will stick to the standard Troll rules and general rules as much as possible.

Also, I've written some army specific rules. My guess is, together with unit champions with +1 Ld, this will allow playability within the army, without canceling out the stupidity too much, and actually allowing the Troll player to have at least a bit of tactics around keeping the Ld as high as poosible.
I sticked to applying these modifiers only to stupidity test, to represent the disorganised bestial nature of the army concerning panic and break tests and the like. Not that the Troll lord will be leadership 8, so apart from the giant, (9 I think) there will be nothing with a Leadership higher than this.
I'm also not sure yet about the last rule. The first sounds better to me, while the second seems a bit more doable concerning measuring distances just before declaring charges.

Army rules:
Core and special units follow all these army rules. Character and rare choices only follow “Where is boss?”. These Leadership modifiers do not apply if the generals Leadership is used. The generals Leadership can never be modified by Troll army rules. Do note that this does not apply for any Leadership modifiers caused by another allied or hostile army which will work as normal.

Troll see, Troll do
When Trolls gather in large packs for fights, they all focus on doing the same thing (moving in the same direction, fighting the same enemy). Because they have a constant reminder on what to do around them (that is, the other Trolls in the unit) they won't be overcome by Stupidity that easily.
For each Troll in a unit after the first, the unit gains +1 Leadership up to a maximum of +2 for all stupidity tests.

Where is boss?
Trolls don’t naturally gather in large groups, but tend to go around alone or just with a few of their kind. While being attracted to the warband by the Troll Lord, this attractive power is lost as soon as he is slain. If this happens, the Trolls tend to start show erratic behavior and continue to follow their own path.
When the Troll Lord is killed or in any other way permanently removed from the battle, the Trolls will move straight towards the closest table edge after a failed stupidity test instead of straight forward. All other normal stupidity rules apply.
In addition, in each controlling players turn after the turn in which the Troll Lord was slain, a Leadership penalty applies to all stupidity tests. This penalty starts at -1 in the first turn, -2 in the second turn and so on, down to a minimum of Leadership 2.

Look Rocky, dwarves!
When they smell fresh dwarf (human, elf or other) meat nearby, they gain somewhat in determination.
For each enemy unit within half of the maximum charge range, add +1 to the Leadership for stupidity tests. Line of sight is required. This does not affect characters.
OR
For each enemy unit in line of sight, add +1 to the leadership for stupidity tests. This does not affect characters.
(The second is maybe quite a bit better then the first, but does not include the need the do any measuring before declaring charges, without altering the normal system of how turns proceed)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
27-06-2008, 15:06
To balance it out, you could have Trolls with limited charge reactions.

After all. It's a Troll, and dindins is running at it. Why would he wander off? Thus, Trolls might be limited to Hold reactions.

Dunno. Just chucking ideas around and that.

Dalamyr the Fleetmaster
27-06-2008, 16:15
To balance it out, you could have Trolls with limited charge reactions.

After all. It's a Troll, and dindins is running at it. Why would he wander off? Thus, Trolls might be limited to Hold reactions.

Dunno. Just chucking ideas around and that.

Trolls are immune to psychology because they are stupid

Mad Doc Grotsnik
27-06-2008, 16:16
Only when they fail the Stupidity test. Rest of the time, Psychology applies as normal.

Unless it's changed in the new edition.

Grimgormx
27-06-2008, 17:10
use gorbad Ironhand....