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slaanghoul
25-06-2008, 08:33
Question about marine biology. I know they have more heart, lungs, etc. . . I also know that they are larger than normal person, about 7-8 feet tall.

That being said. . . a naked marine will look like a normal man right? I mean the sizes are larger, but nothing weird like a big hump sack under his left chest for his extra lung .. .nothing like that right? So the question is how can a marine look like normal person if they have all these extra organs?

You look at basketball and large men such as . . . Shack, Yao Ming, and The Rock. They are large guys, but their body is normal. So if Shack is about the size of marine with out the extra organs, where are the room for the new special organs? unless marine's organs are smaller then standard human size.

DarthSte
25-06-2008, 08:41
I was going to tell you that MorningLightMountain has a degree in Marine Biology, then I realised you meant Marine Biology...

Shack, Rock etc are big. Marines are huge. There is a lot of empty or redundant space in a human too, so that space would increase with a larger being, so you could fit men in.

Also it is a game with little toy soldiers... Just add a metachlorian count and you have Star Wars...

Jonke
25-06-2008, 09:02
Check this site (http://www.philipsibbering.net/WH40KRP/WH40KRP_Concepts_%5BAdeptus_Astartes%5D.htm). I don't agree with everything but he has some interesting concepts.

slaanghoul
25-06-2008, 09:17
I was going to tell you that MorningLightMountain has a degree in Marine Biology, then I realised you meant Marine Biology...

Shack, Rock etc are big. Marines are huge. There is a lot of empty or redundant space in a human too, so that space would increase with a larger being, so you could fit men in.

Also it is a game with little toy soldiers... Just add a metachlorian count and you have Star Wars...

LOL, nice. . . I too took marine biology in HS. I didn't even notice that the two words are the same . . .LOL

slaanghoul
25-06-2008, 09:23
Check this site (http://www.philipsibbering.net/WH40KRP/WH40KRP_Concepts_%5BAdeptus_Astartes%5D.htm). I don't agree with everything but he has some interesting concepts.

thanks for the info.

WoW those marines are Ogres! I don't think they can scrub their own back! They need Servitor with brush arms to bath them!

The marine weak point is the middle upper back .. . that is his blind / unreachable spot!

MrBigMr
25-06-2008, 10:00
I believe it was in some HH novel or something that had a woman see a naked marine and got reminded once again that everything is up to scale.

I also remember some old source stating that Marines suffer from gigantism, but I think that's one of those things that have been lost in time. No body wants to play a cripple. They want super soldiers that are pure at hearts, healthy, have good teeth and wear shiny armour.

Condottiere
25-06-2008, 10:23
SM are perfect physical specimens, but indoctrination might leave them "virtually" mentally somewhat challenged.;)

Reclusiarch Mikelus
25-06-2008, 10:53
Check this site (http://www.philipsibbering.net/WH40KRP/WH40KRP_Concepts_%5BAdeptus_Astartes%5D.htm). I don't agree with everything but he has some interesting concepts.

Should a 'Terminator' Marine really be bigger than a normal Astartes? I have never heard of it before. I thought there were no need for extra muscles, since the armour had some kind of exoskeleton or something like that to keep it up. Was I wrong?

Sai-Lauren
25-06-2008, 13:03
Didn't this topic (or a variant of it) come up last week, and the week before, and the week before that... ? ;)
I think it's getting to the stage where we need a definitive "making marines" thread that can be stickied.

But, to answer the original poster...



That being said. . . a naked marine will look like a normal man right?

Yes, aside from the spinal links for his armour, and a grey tinge to his skin if he's been cooped up in his armour on extended campaign (their skin will go pale and the black carapace underneath will show through - think of the skin tone of the Borg).
I personally think they're also very lean, almost to the point of being virtually fat free - their metabolism is likely at such a high level that they're close to consuming their own bodies.



So the question is how can a marine look like normal person if they have all these extra organs?

Because he's physically larger and some of the extra organs either fit inside other organs (Ossomedulla goes into the Brain IIRC), or some of their organs don't grow to scale, relying instead on the gene therapy the marines receive to enhance their function. Failure there would be one of the causes of implant rejection and initiate death.
The secondary heart for example is just a tube of muscle with a couple of valves, it's own "pacemaker" node and some nerve connections (IIRC) - probably no bigger than an apple. It doesn't even need to be in the chest, so long as there are valves and a shunt around the normal heart to take the blood flow if the normal heart gets damaged or destroyed.



You look at basketball and large men such as . . . Shack, Yao Ming, and The Rock. They are large guys, but their body is normal.

I personally prefer the physiques of people like Batista - just put an extra six inches of height on him and keep everything else in scale (Gav Thorpe said a while back that marines are 7 feet tall - Jes Goodwin's image which says 8 feet is wrong, the scale starts at 1 foot, not zero).

Phil Sibbering's site is good if you're building Marines from their DNA and other cell contents on up, or from Gorillas.
But not if you're converting normal humans into Marines, which is what actually happens. ;)

PondaNagura
25-06-2008, 13:38
marines are close to human proportions, the chest cavity/shoulders grow wider (barrel chested). head kind of stays the same size.
as for weak point on back...it's probably covered by the backplate/power plant anyways.

KrzyKanadian
25-06-2008, 14:42
I suppose you wouldn't have the organs growing too much - like they bio-enhanced them just right so as to leave room for the extra stuff that they have to put in there. Plus you could take out the appendix!

Sai-Lauren
25-06-2008, 15:15
Plus you could take out the appendix!

That wouldn't save a lot of space, beside which, scientists are now thinking that it's not actually as useless as they used to believe.

Kage2020
25-06-2008, 20:38
That being said. . . a naked marine will look like a normal man right? I mean the sizes are larger, but nothing weird like a big hump sack under his left chest for his extra lung .. .nothing like that right?
On my behalf? They are broadly proportionate humans, yes. I'm afraid that I tend to disagree with the posted link since it falls into a common trap when interpreting the 40k universe, which is to take the extremes of modern physiological (or whatever) experience and then hype them up even further because it is "40k-ifying" them, or making them more "heroic."

I'm afraid that I, too, am one of those individuals that like to take a normal human and shape them into a Marine, rather than using the armour to shape them. That and bionetically advancing them, rather than genetically restructuring them... more or less. ;)

Opinions on this vary, though...

Kage

DarthSte
26-06-2008, 08:07
That wouldn't save a lot of space, beside which, scientists are now thinking that it's not actually as useless as they used to believe.

You mean those Made-up Scientists that live in your head don't you...?

The Appendix is a vestigial remenant of our evolutionary herbivorial past. In a modern human omnivore it is absolutely redundant.
It's only uses are:
1) Grossing out you friends and family, with showing the jar you have, which contains your one that you had removed.
2) Giving ladies an opportunity to show scars that are quite low on their abdomens.
3) Killing the unfortunant.

Condottiere
26-06-2008, 08:20
Off-thread - I heard something similar about the possible usefulness of the appendix, which had nothing to do with grossing out your friends and family.

On-thread - I prefer the idea of well-proportioned 7-foot plus human specimens.

Sai-Lauren
26-06-2008, 09:00
You mean those Made-up Scientists that live in your head don't you...?

Is your intention to be insulting? That's dangerously close to it if it isn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermiform_appendix
Read under Immune Use and Latest Interpretation:Maintaining Gut Flora.

DarthSte
26-06-2008, 10:14
Is your intention to be insulting? That's dangerously close to it if it isn't.

My apologies. I was meaning to be flippant and light hearted. Thanks for the link. I guess I should have just asked for that instead.

heretics bane
26-06-2008, 17:33
Check this site (http://www.philipsibbering.net/WH40KRP/WH40KRP_Concepts_%5BAdeptus_Astartes%5D.htm). I don't agree with everything but he has some interesting concepts.

I dont like the look of them marines to be honest, way to chunky. i always imagine them being just very big well sculpted humans. not clunky brutes

Tynesh
26-06-2008, 18:59
As to fitting all the extra stuff inside a marine, here is a sample of the ideas I am working on...

When recruited marines are 10-12 years old. They are then 'forced' to grow to nearly twice that height. I would imagine that some surgery could be used to implant 'water bladders' into the torso that can be expanded over time to distort the internal organs and provide a space into which future implants can be placed.

As for the wedding tackle, one would imagine that it may well get a bit smaller (the testicles anyway). Just look at those people who do weights and take testosterone supplements, excess amounts of the hormone can lead to you being less 'manly'...

Sai-Lauren
27-06-2008, 08:13
When recruited marines are 10-12 years old. They are then 'forced' to grow to nearly twice that height. I would imagine that some surgery could be used to implant 'water bladders' into the torso that can be expanded over time to distort the internal organs and provide a space into which future implants can be placed.

Not really - remember that most marine chapters (except the UM and presumably some of their successors) select their recruits from low tech and feral worlds, where the diet isn't exactly top quality - societies are mainly hunter-gatherer, with irregular amounts of fresh meat supplemented by preserved meat and some fruit and vegetables when available, along with variable amounts of dairy produce and bread/beer. It's likely that recruits are under-nourished and may not have actually begun puberty properly yet (IIRC, one of the reasons why the average age for the onset of puberty has decreased over the last few decades is better nourishment in childhood).
When the recruit gets into the chapter, then the malnutrition can be sorted out, and that and the gene therapies will allow them to reach their "marine" height - basically their natural height (through diet) and an extra bit (through the gene-therapy).

UM recruits compete in a kind of olympics, and their recruiting worlds are likely more civilised and advanced, meaning that their recruits will initially be bigger (I think that a recruit being chosen to join the Astartes would honour their settlement and/or family, so they would get a good diet to try and help their chances), but they will be closer to their natural maximum height. All the gene therapies will do is add the same "bit" to their height as the other chapters get.

The human body essentially has design limits that you cannot get around - get too big and you start to suffer from poor circulation, heat build up in your torso begins to denature the enzymes that you need to be able to live (our body core temperature is about 38 celcius, proteins start to denature at around 40 celcius, marines by their very bulk and the insulating effects of the black carapace will be close to heat stroke and hyperthermic effects after a training session - I can see them going and cooling off in ice baths or what would effectively be snow showers when training out of armour, or relying on their armour to cool their blood when training in it) and so on.

Marines may push the limits of what the human body can do, but they're still essentially human, and therefore bound by those same design limits that they had when they were born.

Rirekon
27-06-2008, 08:34
Rule of cool doesn't care for your science.

If you're all really determined to try and work out how Marines "work", then just accept that in the future the level of genetic engineering will be so far beyond what we can conceive of now. There are mammals with the same basic organs that Humans have which are many, many times our size and yet they operate fine.

Sai-Lauren
27-06-2008, 12:47
Rule of cool doesn't care for your science.

The rule of cool should go to school... :p

That's actually one of the basic problems with the 40k universe - as a place to have one-off games that don't matter a jot once they're finished, it's fine, but the moment you start looking at how things happen for campaigns or narrative threads, holes start appearing rapidly. There needs to be a support frame for the universe to sit on, the laws of reality physics, immaterium physics, chemistry, biology, maths and so on, and the fluff that exists doesn't quite do the trick.
You can have the rule of cool, because the frame never needs to be seen. But it still has to be there, otherwise everything's an exception, nothing's the norm, two plus two only equals four if the phase of the moon is right, otherwise it could be 3, 5, 7.19 or Herring, and it all eventually stops making sense and breaks the suspension of disbelief. And then what are we left with? A bunch of metal and plastic figures sat on the dining table and nothing to inspire.



If you're all really determined to try and work out how Marines "work", then just accept that in the future the level of genetic engineering will be so far beyond what we can conceive of now. There are mammals with the same basic organs that Humans have which are many, many times our size and yet they operate fine.

Because there's other adaptations in their body to compensate - the best example would be an Elephants ears (especially African ones) have evolved as a massive flat surface so that they act as massive heat exchangers, keeping the elephants body core temperature down. It also has a very slow heart beat and metabolic rate, living mainly on plants rather than meat which (IIRC) requires a higher core temperature to aid digestion.

Genengineer a human, that's ok - but even with the advances that you say there'll be (and considering the imperium's views on tech, how much is left?), there still comes a point when you've gone beyond what the human physiology can handle and it starts to break down. You might change someone's DNA so that they can regenerate any damage, but go beyond a certain point and you've likely just turned every single cell in their body into a tumour - and their life expectancy is probably measured in microseconds.

It's also a bit lazy to say "it's ok, it's future tech!" :D

Rirekon
27-06-2008, 13:04
There needs to be a support frame for the universe to sit on, the laws of reality physics, immaterium physics, chemistry, biology, maths and so on

It only needs to exist far enough to support what you want to do with it. If you shoot a human it bleeds, if you jump off a cliff you fall, if you fly through the immaterium daemons rip you a new one, etc..
The problem is you are going deeper than the the game does, the game doesn't try to explain a lot of these questions because they really don't matter. If you look at the background for something like Star Trek, which has been written consciously trying to be as true to science as possible, you will find these holes once you get too deep.

Ultimately GW want Marines to be oversized super soldiers, but science doesn't support that idea, so what do you do? Write the science? Hell no, you ignore it because it doesn't matter as far as the game is concerned.

In the world of fantasy gaming, Cool > Science

G.I.JimmyJazz
27-06-2008, 16:13
you cant really call the space marines human anymore, yeah second heart and all that makes them superhuman. but they have a second gland implanted in there saliva gland that makes them spit venim. come on. for an imperium that fights for the pure human race. thats a little far. and they dont sleep. they go into a subconcious state of waiting till reactivation. there great and all. but no longer human.

Condottiere
27-06-2008, 17:06
Well, in a sense, Space Marines are an elite military force made up of eunuchs. There is no danger of them polluting the human gene pool with any possible mutations. Recruits are normal humans, who are then altered after selection.

heretics bane
27-06-2008, 17:55
Well, in a sense, Space Marines are an elite military force made up of eunuchs. There is no danger of them polluting the human gene pool with any possible mutations. Recruits are normal humans, who are then altered after selection.

by eunuchs you mean men lacking the entire shabang or just the use of the testes?

There was a piece in that link about marines having a Z chromosone that severly damages the developing featus pretty much killing it.

Condottiere
27-06-2008, 18:13
I doubt that it is in the classical sense, but the hormones and chemicals running rampant probable interfere with some, if not most, aspects of procreation. Then, there might be vows.

MadDoc
28-06-2008, 08:52
There was a piece in that link about marines having a Z chromosone that severly damages the developing featus pretty much killing it.

That would be Phil Sibbering's fluff and so completely unofficial (and in many cases completely made up by him), so not really relevent to the discussion as its not actually part of the Space Marine background (or therefore Space Marine biology).

There are many people who like Mr Sibbering's version of the background, I'm afraid I'm not one of them though. Regardless, the Z chromosome thing is made up by him and so not part of the actual background.

Just to clarifying things.

Kage2020
28-06-2008, 12:53
It only needs to exist far enough to support what you want to do with it... The problem is you are going deeper than the the game does...
Well, this (snipped) quote seems to encapsulate the argument, does it not? For Sai-Lauren who mentions the idea of a narrative, it (the game) doesn't really support what "[he] want[s] to do with it," and the same applies to me. As someone who is not interested in the wargame side of the 40k hobby, and who has ever remained primarily interested in the RP potential (which I'm for the moment considering separate to Dark Heresy, which is a whole other can of worms), the 40k universe has always broken when you remove it from the "Rule of Cool" amber within which it sits -- a static and unchanging image composed of, erm, Imagery. All of them very Cool, but as soon as you remove that amber and let things move...? Well, it doesn't take long for everything to fall apart.

Thus "going deeper than the game does." I consider it a necessity, hence Anargo (http://anargo-sector.net/).


...the game doesn't try to explain a lot of these questions because they really don't matter.
True for many, of course, but that is all but by definition "Rule of Cool."


In the world of fantasy gaming, Cool > Science
Which is true insofar as you view the 40k universe through the lens of "dark medieval fantasy," which admittedly is what GW would like people to do... along with disengaging the brain and opening the 'ole wallet (or purse).

40k seems to be what you make of it. If out-of-the-box it does what you want it to do? Then cool. Great, even. On the other hand, if you need to dive into the game universe and make more of it, perhaps as a result of writing a story (whether RP or otherwise), then getting your hands dirty by prying away the fallacy of Imagery and Rule of Cool is also not a bad thing.

Kage

heretics bane
28-06-2008, 14:19
That would be Phil Sibbering's fluff and so completely unofficial (and in many cases completely made up by him), so not really relevent to the discussion as its not actually part of the Space Marine background (or therefore Space Marine biology).

There are many people who like Mr Sibbering's version of the background, I'm afraid I'm not one of them though. Regardless, the Z chromosome thing is made up by him and so not part of the actual background.

Just to clarifying things.

Ohh dont worry i knew that was offical fluff cause ive never even heard of that before. I agree with you on not liking his backround fluff.

Badbones777
28-06-2008, 15:45
The Rogue Trader Compendium (a Red book with Ultramatines on the front) had an entire section on just this sort of thing, it was pretty cool, withart showing marines at various stages of the process.
I have to say though, out of armour, they werent actually all that big. Dont get me wrong, you wouldnt want to mess with them, and they were really well built, but in terms of sheer size and muscle mass (though note, Im NOT saying how efficiently said muscle is used) you could definitley see bigger by putting on WWE or even that one guy that every gym seems to have, whos never out of there. It also gave a detailed list of every organ that is put into them and its function (YAY Betchers gland-Marines can spit acid!).
Of course, I dare say things have changed now, I havent seen (if there is one) a modern equivalent ofthe piece that was in the RT supplement, and the most recent codexwas a bit lacking in this depatment, IMO.
As a side issue, could anyone tell me what the current canon is regard recruitment age? Cos it used to be the absolute latest a Candidate could be recruited was 14 (any later, and the body would reject several key implants furhter down the line, and the black carapace wouldnt work).

Kage2020
28-06-2008, 23:37
Modern "canon" appears to be somewhat... confused in the matter of age. Apparently, skinny teenagers do not make interesting combat reading when trying to indicate that they are "combat gods." ;)

Personally, I just keep it at the original age and leave everything else to exceptions (rather than defining everything as an exception to itself, or otherwise "it depends"). But there we go. That's just me.

Kage

Joe Kutz
29-06-2008, 00:20
The Rogue Trader Compendium (a Red book with Ultramatines on the front) had an entire section on just this sort of thing, it was pretty cool, withart showing marines at various stages of the process.
...
Of course, I dare say things have changed now, I havent seen (if there is one) a modern equivalent ofthe piece that was in the RT supplement, and the most recent codexwas a bit lacking in this depatment, IMO.
As a side issue, could anyone tell me what the current canon is regard recruitment age? Cos it used to be the absolute latest a Candidate could be recruited was 14 (any later, and the body would reject several key implants furhter down the line, and the black carapace wouldnt work).

Index Astartes (Printed 2002 ISBN 1-84154-180-X). Still a few years old, but more recent than the old White Dwarf compendium in 1988-89 or so. Most of the article follows the old one, with a few additional fluff bits. The section lists "Phase One Implants" being performed at the ages of 10-14. The final implants are performed at the age of 16-18.

As an aside to the initial question - there are several drawings of a new recruit till death (and the removal of the progenoid glands)...they look like a perfectly normal human, other than a few sockets here and there to connect to their power armor.

Kage2020
29-06-2008, 00:28
There is some artwork over at Anargo (http://anargo-sector.net/) that might interest some of the people here. I'll see if I can get it, or at least some examples, released...

Kage

Badbones777
29-06-2008, 02:40
Index Astartes (Printed 2002 ISBN 1-84154-180-X). Still a few years old, but more recent than the old White Dwarf compendium in 1988-89 or so. Most of the article follows the old one, with a few additional fluff bits. The section lists "Phase One Implants" being performed at the ages of 10-14. The final implants are performed at the age of 16-18.

As an aside to the initial question - there are several drawings of a new recruit till death (and the removal of the progenoid glands)...they look like a perfectly normal human, other than a few sockets here and there to connect to their power armor.


There is some artwork over at Anargo (http://anargo-sector.net/) that might interest some of the people here. I'll see if I can get it, or at least some examples, released...

Kage

Hmmmm cheers guys-Ill check em out-if only for the artwork! In fact I'll have to dig out my old copy of the compendium-stuff like that would be really useful for RP'ing! Betchers Gland and Catalepsean node ftw!

Walks-Astray
29-06-2008, 10:09
all the marines' genetic engineering stuff is scientifically flawed from its fundaments, because it was written when we knew almost nothing about genetics...

heretics bane
29-06-2008, 11:52
all the marines' genetic engineering stuff is scientifically flawed from its fundaments, because it was written when we knew almost nothing about genetics...

:confused: what? they where created using tech from the DAoT humanitys finest hour! they got there traits and flaws from their primachs who each had a specific trait from the emporer

Walks-Astray
29-06-2008, 12:30
i mean the way the fiction was written!
marines would not be considered genetically engineered nowadays, since they retain their own DNA... they are just implanted with new organs which, i suppose, come through genetically engineered cell coltures... though i can't see where the engineering is happening, since they are just keeping the same DNA (gene seed) the primarchs had

ADF
29-06-2008, 12:33
I believe that Walks-Astray wanted to say that the fluff was written by people who knew almost nothing about genteics at the time (i.e. 1990's), so the descriptions of the engineering process make no sense in "real life".

Edit:
from a biological point of view, the actual Space Marine is a symbiotic parasite that reproduces sexually:
One could say that all the organs are a symbiotic hive of organisms that use a human as a mere host for their existence and use the progenoids as a mean of reproduction, because the progenoids mature in the hosts body and are used to impregnate/infect other hosts with the parasite. The main problem with this point would be that the symbiote is not capable of unaided reproduction (the progenoids need external treatments to function properly and to be implanted into a new host).

Walks-Astray
29-06-2008, 12:58
needing aid for reproduction is quite common in real life, the most notable example being viruses, but it can be extended to a lot of other parasitic and even non parasitic organisms... i don't think your point really has problems : )

so being a marine means to be infected by an organism derived from the primarch.. you give him life and means of reproduction, he gives you various enhancements
sounds very reasonable... they just shouldn't call them "genetically engineered soldiers" anymore...

i wonder what a more correct definintion of "space marine" would sound like... "symbiotic soldiers" sounds too nurglesque o_O

heretics bane
29-06-2008, 14:06
Ah sorry Walks-astray i get what you mean now.

Sai-Lauren
30-06-2008, 13:01
you cant really call the space marines human anymore, yeah second heart and all that makes them superhuman. but they have a second gland implanted in there saliva gland that makes them spit venim. come on. for an imperium that fights for the pure human race. thats a little far. and they dont sleep. they go into a subconcious state of waiting till reactivation. there great and all. but no longer human.

Actually, the Betcher's Gland is probably one of the simplest and most possible enhancements marines have (the way I'd do it would be harvest some stomach cells (for the acidity and self-protective secretions) and genengineer them to additionally produce a venom (copy or splice Cobra DNA), add some blood capillary cells and a couple of outer layers of mucle cells then grow them, force some nerve cells to grow (the trickiest bit, but we appear to be getting there slowly even now) and attach to the muscles, then implant, add a duct to the mouth and train the recipient how to use it - and also add a second set of smaller glands to produce an alkaline/anti-venom saliva that fires automatically after the first gland does so that it nutrilises the Betcher's Gland fluids).

Marines do sleep, although they can "switch off" parts of their brains so that they can go without for extended periods without suffering ill effects - and the Sus-An membrane is supposed to put them into a deep hibernation as a last resort following injury etc.

I do agree that they're not really human any more though - they're both something more, and something less.

Condottiere
30-06-2008, 20:00
Well, Space Marines can't be defined as mutants, just as biologically enhanced humans with appropriate wetware.

Spartacus the bemused
30-06-2008, 20:19
I thought the point about Space Marines waa that they weren't human. I thought the fact that in order to be protectors of Humanity, they have to give up their own, is a central point of being a Space Marine, and thus of the 40k universe.

Condottiere
30-06-2008, 20:25
"Humanity" sacrificed either physically, philosophically, spiritually, mentally, and/or soulfully?;)

DarkAzrael169
01-07-2008, 00:40
Should a 'Terminator' Marine really be bigger than a normal Astartes? I have never heard of it before. I thought there were no need for extra muscles, since the armour had some kind of exoskeleton or something like that to keep it up. Was I wrong?

Nope. Your totally right. The "scout" space marine rendering was about I would imagine. Just a little bigger maybe, but there isn't size classes. There is size classes for how much the armour protects you but other than that...

DarkAzrael169
01-07-2008, 00:45
You mean those Made-up Scientists that live in your head don't you...?

The Appendix is a vestigial remenant of our evolutionary herbivorial past. In a modern human omnivore it is absolutely redundant.
It's only uses are:
1) Grossing out you friends and family, with showing the jar you have, which contains your one that you had removed.
2) Giving ladies an opportunity to show scars that are quite low on their abdomens.
3) Killing the unfortunant.

No he is actually right. They are re-thinking what the function of the appendix is.

DarkAzrael169
01-07-2008, 00:52
...(IIRC, one of the reasons why the average age for the onset of puberty has decreased over the last few decades is better nourishment in childhood)...

No. Its all the hormones IN the meat that the kids are eating.

Example:
Girls in Puerto Rico are starting their periods at the ages of 7-9, because their main diet is meat over there.

DarkAzrael169
01-07-2008, 00:59
you cant really call the space marines human anymore, yeah second heart and all that makes them superhuman. but they have a second gland implanted in there saliva gland that makes them spit venim. come on. for an imperium that fights for the pure human race. thats a little far. and they dont sleep. they go into a subconcious state of waiting till reactivation. there great and all. but no longer human.

What does is mean to be human?

Look at a monkey. They can walk up right. Nope, not human.
Look at a parrot. They can replicate vocal noises. Nope, not human.

Being human has nothing to do with any physical references. Its all up there in the head that makes you human.

Space Marines fight to protect regular humans, risking their lives. That shows they have retained their humanity.

Oh and yes they do sleep. If they can do half-sleep stuff and what not, they can sleep normally.

Kage2020
01-07-2008, 01:07
Space Marines fight to protect regular humans, risking their lives. That shows they have retained their humanity.
Look at a guard dog. They also fight to protect regular humans, thus risking your life also does not determine humanity. At least by the above argument. :D

Kage

heretics bane
01-07-2008, 10:51
Nope. Your totally right. The "scout" space marine rendering was about I would imagine. Just a little bigger maybe, but there isn't size classes. There is size classes for how much the armour protects you but other than that...

Well all marines vary in height, not every marine just stops at 7ft or so.

As for terminators, the suits are bigger not the marines. But TBH i dont really like that guys idea of marines at all.

Spartacus the bemused
01-07-2008, 13:56
Should a 'Terminator' Marine really be bigger than a normal Astartes? I have never heard of it before. I thought there were no need for extra muscles, since the armour had some kind of exoskeleton or something like that to keep it up. Was I wrong?
Well, I do believe that Marines never stop growing, only the rate of growth does decline with age.

They basically just start becoming more and more like their Primarch, albeit very, very slowly. Thus larger and taller, though I would suppose that they would pretty much even out at bout 8'. So Terminators would be taller and bulkier than younger Brothers and of course Scouts, but it would not make too much different - a short (lol, still about 7' 5" ;)) Marine would not be diasadvantaged compared to his larger brothers when wearing Terminator Armour.

Kage2020
01-07-2008, 23:33
No, that growth thing would also be ascribed to Phil Sibbering's fan 'fluff.' Or, at least, I really cannot remember any evidence of it in the 'fluff.' (Well, at least none that I remember.) I guess it once again comes down to whether you believe that Marines are made from scratch, or created from humans. I go with the 'fluff' on this one and have them created from the human norm, which generally means that while you can delay the fusion with hormonal treatments, in general you're not going to stop fusion...

That's just me, though.

Again, I like my Marines human... ish, not Hulk... ish. :D

Kage

Sai-Lauren
02-07-2008, 08:04
Phil's ignored the fact that Marines don't automatically graduate from scout to marine to terminator - the 1st Company is composed of the best warriors in the Chapter, not necessarily the oldest.

Scouts don't automatically "graduate" and become marines when they receive their black carapace either (and I would say the implantation of the carapace and progenoids is roughly coincidental with their entry to the scouts, as prior to that they will likely need a lot of attention from the apothecarion to keep their other implants stable) - theoretically, they could serve in the scouts for a couple of decades, gaining experience under fire, before being deemed ready to become a full marine. By which time, they will have pretty much stopped growing.

Spartacus the bemused
02-07-2008, 10:17
Phil's ignored the fact that Marines don't automatically graduate from scout to marine to terminator - the 1st Company is composed of the best warriors in the Chapter, not necessarily the oldest.

The best warriors are usually the oldest. Experience counts for a helluva lot. Most of the guys in my sections looked up to an experienced guy for help (we are all about 19-22), and the reason? He is 24, but he's served two tours. He's older - so he's more experienced. Thus a better soldier.



Scouts don't automatically "graduate" and become marines when they receive their black carapace either (and I would say the implantation of the carapace and progenoids is roughly coincidental with their entry to the scouts, as prior to that they will likely need a lot of attention from the apothecarion to keep their other implants stable) - theoretically, they could serve in the scouts for a couple of decades, gaining experience under fire, before being deemed ready to become a full marine. By which time, they will have pretty much stopped growing.
This is where the fluff divides from the game. How many Marine armies do you see (barring Black Templars) with Scouts? If the game represented fluff, then Scouts are almost non-existent in the 40k Universe.