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Frogczar
25-06-2008, 17:05
Hey O&G players,

I'm fairly new to the game and I've painted a little over 1000 points of O&G, and enjoying the army.

I've joined a Mighty Empires campaign and twice now I've gotten stomped by a dwarven opponent with lots of warmachines.

The second time I went right for one them with my chariot and sadly, that was the only unit of his that I killed the whole game :(

He brought a cannon, an organ gun and a hellfire? cannon (he had the "elite army" option). The Organ Gun tore me up and his cannon killed most of my big block of Orc boys with two choppas even before I ever got to him. I missed with my Spear Chukkas almost the entire game! It was a lopsided game for dice luck to be sure.

Besides all of those things, what suggestions do you have for when I play against him in the future? Sound units? Strategies?

Thanks,

Frog

mav1971
25-06-2008, 19:11
I don't know why, but my goblin bolt throwers have a hard time hitting anything even if I have a 3+ to hit. So I rarely ever take them.

You could always try a unit of night gobbos with fanantics. Or what I really like is a unit of squig hoppers. 2 strength 5 attacks and immune to panic. I sometimes take a unit of 3 river trolls and keep them within 12" of my general.

Shimmergloom
25-06-2008, 19:33
When the dwarf book came out there was an initial rush in my group of multiple new dwarf armies which made up for the fact that the two dwarf players in my area had moved away.

So for quite a while during the end of 6th and until recently I played tons of games vs various dwarf players with all sorts of lists.

Thorek lists, regular anvil lists, block infantry lists, even lists that were designed to be more medievel hopplite kind of lists, with heavy cav, 2 or 3 units of 10 clansdwarf bait units and hammerer/clan blocks with very little shooting.

From all those games, what I found worked the best with greenskins is to leave any units that cost points at home.

No black orcs, no big'uns of any sort. If you know he likes shooting, no boar boyz of any type and no chariots or giants.

Also since one gyrocopter can concieveably force multiple units of night goblins to release fanatics on turn 1, then you don't want to overload on fanatics either. And as usual, magic is a bust, because dwarfs can so easily dispel a weak to moderate magic phase. So better to let him waste his points on spellbreaking runes and such, then you waste your points on one or 2 shamans who pretty much need IF to get anything off. A shame too since foot of gork and gork's warpath are potential death dealers to dwarf warmachines and anvils.

So what does work?

Basically you have to take 2 doom divers and one lobba to focus fire on hammerer units. Also take 2 chukkas, cause they won't misfire and can hopefully take out some hammerers as well.

Concentrate on those hammerer units.

If you play mixed then take like 4 units of 20 night goblins, but only put 1-2 fanatics in 2 of the units. Put a unit with no fanatics opposite his hammerers if possible. Make him waste his gyro opening move on trying to draw fanatics out of them, but then there's none there.

Try to get hoppers and fast cav on the flank of his thunderer/crossbow units. Keep them bare bones. A bare bone 60pt wolf rider unit placed in front of a shooting unit will pretty much force them to shoot at that. Which is better than them shooting at your orcs.

Dwarfs have many advantages, but the best thing about a non-gunline dwarf army is that they still have to fight you and that they want to fight. So it's not like playing wood elves who just want to hide in the woods all game or all these unbreakable armies nowadays that you can't break on the charge if you can even charge because they cause fear which you will fail to pass many times during the game.

So even if you lose, it's still a fun game because both of you are playing warhammer and not skirmish hammer or superpowered unbreakable hammer.

Shamfrit
25-06-2008, 21:14
Shimmergloom.

For once, I utterly, utterly agree with you.

sftetsuo
25-06-2008, 22:10
this is a little off-topic but i can't make new threads
Any suggestions like this for a chaos army? I'm stuck playing my friend who introduced me to the game and he has Empire and Dwarf armies so I always get shot to hell before I even get into combat, or lose my rank bonuses so even if I do get into combat I usually lose combat resolution. I can always beat him if we're playing at 1000pts when he's pretty limited in fielding shooting units but I want to be able to do a 1500/2000pt game and not get my ass kicked. My 1000pt army has 5 knights full command, shields, 2 units of 15 warriors full command, shields, lvl 2 sorcerer, chaos champion. I'm trying to decide if I should get a hellblaster or choose from screamers/furies/wardogs, basically what is a good unit/s choice for dealing with shooting, oh and I'm pretty new to warhammer fantasy if all this sounds noob.

Shimmergloom
25-06-2008, 23:03
With current chaos that'd be tough.

I think mortals can still take spawns right?

I'd start with 2 spawns and a hellcannon. Keep shooting it at the hammerers as long as it lives and put your two spawns toward his hammerers or greatswords to tie them up as long as possible.

You can't take furies and screamers anymore, so don't buy them. I am not sure about dogs, but always take 2+ units of them if they are still allowed.

I have a beast army that I've been putting together plus from my games against beasts/mortals, dogs are great in what they can do.

They can't or will have a hard time taking out even dwarf warmachine crews, but they should be able to deal with empire ones. And like wolfriders park them in front of handgunner/crossbows/etc and make them be the target.

And finally for 30pts you can just park one in each of your deployment corners away from LOS firing arcs and collect 200vps if the dwarf player decides to keep most of the fight in his side of the table. Which even non-gunline players will often do, cause they still want to soften you up before you get to them.

bork da basher
25-06-2008, 23:20
I'd start with 2 spawns and a hellcannon.

how would you manage this, spawn are a rare choice and the hellcannon counts as two. so unless he's playing 3000pts this is a no no.

trying to tie a unit of hammerers up with spawn proberly wont last too long. the majority of hammerer units have a lord riding along or at least a thane so theres going to be a barrage of attacks and hammerers will be wounding spawn on 3+


a hellcannon isnt a good choice to be honest. its one big (very nasty) gun but against a shooty dwarf or empire army its one gun vs 3-5 and in a duel it wont win. take furies/screamers/warhounds/marauder cavalry to deal with enemy guns, even if they dont kill them a turn there not firing at your chaos knights/warriors is a turn well spent. they're more or less forced to fire at your fast stuff because if they dont then it'll tear their guns up next turn.

to be frank a chaos warrior army is the worst kind of army to play against shooty empire/dwarves. your low in numbers, your slow, your models are very very expensive and your armour in combat is great but it doesnt do much to stop cannon balls.
i play dwarfs and i'll rub my hands together with glee if i see a mortal chaos force facing me.

Shimmergloom
26-06-2008, 00:01
hellcannons in the get by list are 1 rare slot from what I've read.

Embalmed
27-06-2008, 13:48
He brought a cannon, an organ gun and a hellfire? cannon (he had the "elite army" option).

wtf is the "elite army" option??

Frogczar
27-06-2008, 13:59
wtf is the "elite army" option??

From "Mighty Empires" WFB campaign game. It allows you to take special choices instead of troops.

-Frog

sephiroth87
27-06-2008, 14:48
Shimmergloom is right on about the orcs. Lots of cheap units make it harder for them to decimate you. You'll get there eventually and be able to flank him, due to your higher model count.

On the hellcannon, it's still two rare slots. The spawn are two for one rare slot.

On the other chaos stuff, you can't use screamers or furies anymore, due to the hordes of chaos army book being updated. There is a "get you by" list in one of the white dwarf magazines (number 341) that's now the legal list.

On what to take, you have to take 3+ core units in 2000 points. In 2000 and above, I take a unit of 15 warriors, a unit of 24 marauders, and 10 marauders with flails.

Against dwarves, I have done pretty well with my chaos list, simply because the tzeentch dragonlord has won most of my games. The ward save against shooting with the eye of tzeentch usually protects you until you hit a unit in the flank and tie it up.

sftetsuo
29-06-2008, 11:13
Great advice, I'll probably go with the hellcannon and get the new rulebook. Good thing I didn't go out and buy those screamers, but this info will help me out in a 3000pt dwarfs/empire vs chaos nurgle/tzeentch.

Urgat
29-06-2008, 11:22
Take lots of night gobs, they hate the dwarfs. Oh, and don't forget, squigs are night goblins, so they hate dwarfs too, and that's awesome :)
Other than that, yeah, take many many cheap units.

Shimmergloom
29-06-2008, 17:54
Night goblins are not going to do any damage to dwarfs to speak of, hatred or not.

Squigs though, will do damage. However Herds are too slow vs Dwarfs and once he realizes that shooting them early could cause them to explode in your lines and do more damage to you, he'll shoot them first.

So taking herds against dwarves gives him a potential bomb to use against you, instead of against him.

Hoppers though, don't explode and are faster overall. You can't control their movement though, so you'll have to put them on the flanks. Basically hope they can get flank shots at dwarf clan units, where they can do alot of damage.

Lord Snerual
29-06-2008, 18:13
Take lots of night gobs, they hate the dwarfs. Oh, and don't forget, squigs are night goblins, so they hate dwarfs too, and that's awesome :)
Other than that, yeah, take many many cheap units.

all orcs are cheap.

I would take...SQUIGS, love 'em. I hope your friend isn't going to use the famous gunline

Urgat
29-06-2008, 22:55
Night goblins are not going to do any damage to dwarfs to speak of, hatred or not.

Yeah, but dwarfs won't do any damage either (netters). Then you have the huge advantage of numbers. Then it's all a matter of tactics.


Squigs though, will do damage. However Herds are too slow vs Dwarfs and once he realizes that shooting them early could cause them to explode in your lines and do more damage to you, he'll shoot them first.So taking herds against dwarves gives him a potential bomb to use against you, instead of against him.

Too slow against dwarfs? They're way faster than them. I'm not too fond of herds though, when I say squigs, I mean hoppers, which leads to...




Hoppers though, don't explode and are faster overall. You can't control their movement though, so you'll have to put them on the flanks. Basically hope they can get flank shots at dwarf clan units, where they can do alot of damage.

Yeah, hoppers on flanks. They're brilliant for that, shame they won't cancel ranks, but you're dealing with static CR with your normal gob units, which will also help the squigs survive (coz they're very fragile, so you can use the netters there).

Yeah orcs are cheap, but for one orc, you get two gobs, and, as they say: "strenght in numbers" ;)