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Mozzamanx
25-06-2008, 22:13
Ello,

In the Tomb King army book, all spells are bound, with a random power level. They never miscast with a double 1, but never get irresistible force.
Daemons have a banner which gives -2 to cast.

If I roll a double 1 for my Liche (or just 1 for Tomb Kings!) and get a negative result or 0 from the banner, what happens with regards to dispelling? Is it auto-dispelled, since they physically cannot fail it? Do they still need to use a dispel dice?
This never actually came up, Im just curious.

Dark_Mage99
25-06-2008, 22:22
I guess it's still cast, with a 1 being needed to dispel it.

theunwantedbeing
25-06-2008, 22:30
The tomb kings dont have a lore of magic to be chosen.
So the banner is pretty worthless.

Dark_Mage99
25-06-2008, 22:35
That's a whole other kettle of fish :P I assume this particular question is asked with the viewpoint in mind that every grouping of spells (or incantations) is a "Lore".

Belerophon709
25-06-2008, 22:38
The Tomb King FAQ has an example with Incantations vs. Drain Magic. Not exactly the same, but it mentions that incantations are always cast, but can be cast at power level 0, in which case it will always be dispelled if a single die is thrown at it.

I think it can be argued that the Standard of Sundering doesn't affect incantations at all, since it affects the roll to cast. TK doesn't roll to cast, they simply cast it at a random power level. It's a long shot though.

BloodiedSword
25-06-2008, 23:16
Belerophon709 - I believe the FAQ you are referring to is a 6th edition FAQ and therefore somewhat out of date.

I'm not sure the Drain Magic is the best example. If memory serves, there is a FAQ (either in the one you mention or an old HE FAQ) talking about how the Amulet of Purifying Flame interacts with Incantations.

The Amulet used to say "Spells.. subtract -3 from their casting roll" and IIRC was FAQ'd to say that it affected TK Incantations. This would be a closer precendent and implies that, if Incantations count as a "Lore", then they would be affected by the Standard.

Alathir
26-06-2008, 04:34
The Tomb Kings have no 'lore' and thus the Banner of Sundering is useless against the forces of Khemri.

Copenhagan
26-06-2008, 17:15
If you look at the new High Elf Faq it talks about the use of drain magic on raising the casting value by three and that it doe not work on Tomb Kings because there spells do not have a casting value.

So I would say that there is no affect on tomb kings form that banner.

Ganymede
26-06-2008, 17:36
Why oh why didn't they just word the banner to say "-3 to casting rolls"? That would have been so much simpler.

BloodiedSword
26-06-2008, 19:31
The subtle difference with the new Drain Magic is that it raises "the casting value" of a spell, not the roll itself.

However, previous (6th edition) FAQs imply that if the Standard could be used to affect the power level of Incantations, provided Incantations counts as a Lore. That said, relying on precedents set by obselete FAQs is always dangerous.

T10
26-06-2008, 22:29
Why oh why didn't they just word the banner to say "-3 to casting rolls"? That would have been so much simpler.

What are you rambling about?

The spell and banner have radically different effects:

Both make the spells more difficult to cast, but increasing the casting value also make the successful spells more difficult to dispel.

-T10

Ganymede
27-06-2008, 00:56
What you call radically different, I call intimately related.

Red_Duke
27-06-2008, 12:06
As far as Lore goes - even as a TK player id be happy to concede that Incants are a lore. Its the most sensible approach to it. Just as the ION for vamps being part of the lore of vamps is (who i also play).

Whether the banner affects the spells however is a different matter. All TK spells are bound. You're simply rolling to see at what power level they are bound at. actually casting a spell imo necessitates the ability to either miscast or cast irresistably.

Of course, thats just my own take on it ;)

Loopstah
27-06-2008, 12:18
Standard:

"All wizards suffer a -2 penalty to cast spells from that lore."

I take this to mean that you deduct 2 from whatever result you get when rolling to cast the spell.

Tomb Kings Army Book:

"The incantation is automatically cast"

Now further down Drain Magic is listed as affecting incantations because it alters the power level of the spell (raises it +3). The standard doesn't affect the power level, only the casting roll.

I would say that as the standard only gives a penalty to casting the spell rather than alters the power level of the spell then it has no effect on incantations as they are automatically cast. The standard does not alter a spells power level so it could not alter the power level of an incantation.

EvC
27-06-2008, 13:06
Remember Tomb Kings and Tomb Princes aren't Wizards, so at the very least, they won't be deducting 2 from their attempts. I'd say the whole lot doesn't work on them really.

Loopstah
27-06-2008, 13:08
Remember Tomb Kings and Tomb Princes aren't Wizards

They are "treated as wizards" though, although that still wouldn't make the standard affect them as far as I can see.

EvC
27-06-2008, 13:34
Does it actually say they're treated as Wizards? I've heard so much in the past about them not being treated as wizards I think I might need a quote for that...

Loopstah
27-06-2008, 13:36
Does it actually say they're treated as Wizards? I've heard so much in the past about them not being treated as wizards I think I might need a quote for that...

Pg 34: Liche Priest Magic.
Using Nehekharan Incantations.
"Liche Priests and Liche High Priests are treated as Wizards, but they don't generate any Power dice."

EvC
27-06-2008, 13:57
And what did I say? ;)

Makaber
27-06-2008, 14:34
The incantations are, in effect, bound spells with a random power level. I don't recall how clearly this is spelled (badabish) out in the book, but that's the jist of it anyway.

Would the banner affect the power level of a bound spell cast from an item? No? Then it won't affect incantations either.

GranFarfar
27-06-2008, 16:38
Pg 34: Liche Priest Magic.
Using Nehekharan Incantations.
"Liche Priests and Liche High Priests are treated as Wizards, but they don't generate any Power dice."

I think EvC are referring to the Tomb Kings and the Tomb Princes.

That aside. Do TK have a lore or not? I find the question rather interesting. Edit: What except the 8 common lores are considered, lores of magic?

Loopstah
27-06-2008, 16:50
I think EvC are referring to the Tomb Kings and the Tomb Princes.

That aside. Do TK have a lore or not? I find the question rather interesting. What out of the 8 common lores are considered, lores of magic?

Doh! I misread his post.

It says nothing about Tomb Kings or Tomb Princes being wizards only that they may cast certain incantations due to their strength of will. As it specifically states Priests are treated as wizards but doesn't say the same for Kings then I would say they aren't.


All of the 8 common lores are lores of magic.

EvC
27-06-2008, 17:18
Ah good, we're on the same page. We both reckon that TK magic isn't a Lore, just giving extra fuel to the argument in case anyone tries to reduce a Tomb King's incantation by 2 points with the banner ;)

Loopstah
27-06-2008, 17:22
Ah good, we're on the same page. We both reckon that TK magic isn't a Lore, just giving extra fuel to the argument in case anyone tries to reduce a Tomb King's incantation by 2 points with the banner ;)

Yes, and even if it was a Lore, the banner would still have no effect as incantations are automatically cast, and the banner does not alter the power level of a spell (which is what you roll the dice for).

logan054
27-06-2008, 17:28
sadly i would have to agree that it has no effect on TK magic, they are treated as bound magic and it actually states you cant effect the power level. I was of the other thinking originally then i read the rules.

GranFarfar
27-06-2008, 20:34
All of the 8 common lores are lores of magic.

My bad. I ment other than the 8 common lore. Like, skaven, tk and ogres, for example.

Loopstah
27-06-2008, 20:42
My bad. I ment other than the 8 common lore. Like, skaven, tk and ogres, for example.

Well the ones with Lore in the name (so no arguments) are:

Daemon Lore of Tzeentch
Daemon Lore of Nurgle
Daemon Lore of Slaanesh
Lore of the Vampires
Lore of Athel Loren
Lore of Tzeentch
Lore of Slaanesh
Lore of Nurgle

The ones without Lore in the name (so some people will argue they aren't) are:

Gut Magic
Skaven Spell List
High Magic
Dark Magic
Prayers of Sigmar
Waaaagh! Magics
Incantations

Techincally I would say they were all Lores except the Incantations which function completely differently from all other magic. (I haven't got the Empire book yet so I don't know how Prayers are treated).

decker_cky
27-06-2008, 21:05
You could argue either way for Incantations, or Gut magic, but as per 'Selecting Spells' on page 111, the rest are all explicitly lores (if they're not, you don't have the option to roll up your spells).

Loopstah
27-06-2008, 21:14
You could argue either way for Incantations, or Gut magic, but as per 'Selecting Spells' on page 111, the rest are all explicitly lores (if they're not, you don't have the option to roll up your spells).

You know I'm surprised nobody has picked up on that before, it's pretty clear from that page what a Lore is.

I might not agree with some of your ideas but having read pg 111 again, you're correct.

A lore is a spell list with 6 numbered spells that you can select spells from by rolling a dice.

Incantations and Gut Magic are the only ones that vary from those criteria.

kroq'gar
29-06-2008, 04:56
Incantations and prayers are very smilar. they are not lores, as all of the potential bound spells are available. They are in effect multi-tasking bound items.

Lores are those with their own table that a wizard (no special abilities) can roll on. Now, this leaves ogres in a rather odd situation.

Condottiere
29-06-2008, 09:09
So what precisely are Incantations? (Note: I currently have a vested interest in this question.)

Loopstah
29-06-2008, 10:51
So what precisely are Incantations? (Note: I currently have a vested interest in this question.)

There are 4 of them with different effects.
They are automatically cast like a bound spell.
Their power level is decided by 2D6 for Priests or D6 for Kings.
They can be dispelled but do not get IF or Miscasts due to not rolling to cast.

GranFarfar
29-06-2008, 12:07
You could argue either way for Incantations, or Gut magic, but as per 'Selecting Spells' on page 111, the rest are all explicitly lores (if they're not, you don't have the option to roll up your spells).

Yes, my line of reasoning has been similar to this one. But what GWs intention with this banner is, you can't tell. It is another reason to why the Deamons book so badly needs an FAQ. The entire gifts and icon section is a bit iffy.