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themandudeperson
27-06-2008, 00:51
I'm just brainstorming here, but I've got a pairs tournament coming up here soon and my partner has HE led by Teclis. He's still very new to the game, but I've managed to help guide him through the intricacies of producing a fairly worthwhile list for the tourney. Now, being that I'm mostly a "beat your army in the head" style player, my magic tactica is fairly weak. What lore of magic would work best against the following expected tourney opponents:
Ogres/Vampire Counts
Bretonnians/Empire
Wood Elves/High Elves

I pretty much already know that due to the high amounts of heavy calvary in the Bretonnians/Empire list that Lore of Metal would be a no brainer, but what would be more effective against the other two? I've been thinking that the High Lore would offer good support in addition to some effective combat spells, but the Lore of Fire would negate any regeneration saves against VC and would also spell doom for treemen. The Lore of Light also looks effective against the VC, but not so much against the Ogres.. Also, do the Fury of Khaine and the Flames of the Phoenix count as flaming attacks? I'd just like to know, because flaming attacks are going to be both very useful against two of the armies and totally worthless against a certain HE unit.. damnable dragon princes:mad: Lastly, do forest spirits count as daemons or not? If so, the Lore of Light would be very effective against them too. I just know that if they're not daemons, they're daemon-like.

Krusty
27-06-2008, 00:59
against the elves definatly take fire, and right on for the metal against brets...
against ogres, consider the lores that have spells to limit movement...

Krusty
27-06-2008, 01:00
what army are you playing?

themandudeperson
27-06-2008, 01:11
Our pair is High Elves/Lizardmen. My army is mostly geared toward gutting key units out of the opponent's army and mopping up the rest afterwards.

Marwynn
27-06-2008, 01:45
Against the Ogres any old damage dealing Lore would be fine. But if it's a doubles tournament then go with Light.

Bret and Empire, definitely Metal.

Versus the Wood Elves you can still go Metal to kill the Treethings. They don't have armour but scaly skin saves, so stuff like Spirit of the Forge still works there. Fire won't do that much as it's mostly S4 against them.

Consider Shadow or even Death there. Maybe even Heavens.

Highborn
27-06-2008, 02:47
Ogres/Vampire Counts
I would go for High Magic for two reasons - Drain Magic, to shut down the magic-dependent Vampire Counts, and Flames of the Phoenix to hit any regenerating blocks. Both Vampires and Ogres lack any shooting, so you're going to be playing the defensive game, making Curse of Arrow Attraction a winner. If you come up against the Helm, the Drakenhof Banner or any other such nasties, Vaul's Unmaking will prove handy. Ogres shouldn't prove as much of a threat after Curse and missile fire.

Bretonnians / Empire
Tough call. Metal will hurt Brets, but Heavens for Comet of Cassandora against any bunched up Empire line will sting badly. Metal if Empire looks fast, Heavens if they look shooty. Uranon's Thunderbolt will give Grail Knights something to worry about.

Wood Elves / High Elves
Shadow. Treemen will fear Pit of Shades, and Teclis will cast it irresistably better than anyone. Shades of Death and Unseen Lurker are useful, but throwing a few dice at Pit of Shades each turn will probably see the Treeman dead before it reaches you. After that, Creeping Death should also cause a few headaches for expensive elven cavalry, and sallies shouldn't have an issue clearing slower skirmishers leaving you big blocks of High Elf infantry to deal with.

themandudeperson
27-06-2008, 02:56
Wouldn't fire still be effective given that treemen and treekin are flammable and would take double wounds? If we can get fiery blast and fireball to both successfully cast, that's approx 10 hits a turn. In turn, that's 3-4 wounds to treekin or 1-2 to treemen. Armor saves will be the big thing though, it'll thin down the number of wounds to 1-2 vs treekin and probably only 1 vs treemen, but they'd double due to them being flammable. It would still allow us some powerful spells for slapping around toughness 3 poor/no armor save elves though. Although, Pit of Shades would definitely be powerful against tree-folk though...

themandudeperson
27-06-2008, 03:01
As a bit of sidenote, what do ya'll think of using steed of shadows on my Oldblood so I can use the Banehead item instead? Having Teclis cast that on him would make him even more mobile and I could still deliver the 7 strength 7 attacks and have an enemy character take double wounds. The only downside, is I'd be dependent on that spell getting off to give me all that mobility.. The Bane Head would be more useful for taking down hard Lords like the Treeman Ancient and the Ogre Tyrant...

Highborn
27-06-2008, 03:24
My first concern would be High Elves dispelling at +1 to dispel, giving them a good chance to stop whatever you do. If Teclis irresistables, there's nothing he can do about it. But, that's a minor one.

You're right, if both fireball and fiery blast go off, you'll do approximately 4.6 wounds to Treekin and 1.8 wounds to a Treeman. If Pit goes off (one less chance for the enemy to dispel), you'll do effectively 3 wounds to Treekin or effectively 4 wounds to Treeman (dead two out of every three attempts).

Secondly, Wood Elves suffer if they lose the charge. Unseen Lurker will take that from them.


I think Shadow just has more threatening spells than Fire does, and more 'must stop' spells. Fire does more damage, but if Teclis irresistables on Pit or Lurker, that's big points and position gain. On second thought though, Fire would probably be more helpful against the High Elves side of the equation. Tough call.


edit
Steed of Shadows is nastiness, but against an Ancient you'll likely hit Annoyance of Netlings which will stop you dead. If it's the non-Ancient variety, then Bane Head won't work. The Ogre Tyrant will fall though.

Admiral Samuel Eden
27-06-2008, 05:22
Shadow is my favorite lore and I would strongly recommend it here. Reasons are already given but there are endless possibilities with shadow.

The Red Scourge
27-06-2008, 08:37
In general. Magic isn't that good at dealing damage, troops are much better at that aspect of the game.

Choose magic to back up your troops instead of relying on it to beat the opposition by itself. Spells like Unseen Lurker, Doom & Darkness, Cause Fear/Terror-spells etc. will often have a bigger impact on the game than a couple of S4 hits. This way you won't miss your mages so much, when they miscast and blow their brains out.

InsideReticle
27-06-2008, 14:05
I have to disagree with the sentiment that Fire is effective against high elves. There are plenty of models that have dragon armour and are therefore immune to all fire-based attacks.

Sterling
27-06-2008, 14:33
As an Ogre player, I fear high magic the most. they are probably going to have lots of dispel dice, since gut magic and necromancy are both very important to their respective armies... that means if you come out threatening magic missiles, they will not even shiver. Take a few hits to either expendable ogres or undead that will just be raised back up before combat and continue the charge.

however, curse of arrow attraction is a killer among unarmored ogres. drain magic is awesome against the repeat-casts of vampire lords. that will shut down the magic against you... now you just have to hit them hard enough to win, which should be a problem for a couple saurus blocks.

Kahadras
27-06-2008, 20:47
I'm a big fan of the lores of Metal and Beasts at the present moment. Metal contains plenty of nice offencive spells that can be very disruptive to your opponants plans. On top of this most of them are fairly easy to cast...

Rule of Buring Iron - Nice low level spell. Can pick out individual models and can really hurt anything with a decent armour save. Its probably best used for character sniping but it's pretty effective just going after any heavy cavalry (bar Dragon Princes)

Commandment of Brass - Another easy to cast spell which can really hurt war machines. I tend to find the spell work very well on chariots (other warmachines tend to hang back putting them outside the range of the spell) but preventing a cannon from firing for a turn is also well worth the power dice.

Transmutation of Lead - The use of this spell is pretty annoying as you have to cast it on a unit in combat which means your opponant will always be able to charge with full effect (unless you cast it in your opponants turn). This spell can really swing a combat for you though as the penalties that it deals out to your opponants are pretty good.

Distilation of Molten Silver - Possibly the most meh spell in the list. Its just a Fiery Blast by another name and feels a bit pointless. I would have far rather had a spell which inhibits movement here (maybe something that turns the units garments to lead arther than their weapons and armour)

Law of Gold - Possibly my favorite spell in the list. It's still fairly easy to cast on an eight (still needing three dice though really) and you need to be fairly certain that the unit/character is carrying a magic item (if they aren't it fizzels). The only other downside is the fact that your opponant picks which item is negated. On the upside you can take out his magic item for a turn or even for the rest of the game which is massive IMHO. It's a great spell to draw out your opponants dispel dice and dispel magic scrolls as nobody wants to see their 50 point banner negated for the rest of the game.

The Spirit of the Forge - Basicaly a 2D6 varient of Rule of Burning Iron. Makes cavalry heavy armies cry but on the other hand it is very hard to get off (I'd say 4 dice minimum). You can wipe out entire units of heavy cavalry with this but again Dragon Princes ignore it due to the fact it's flaming and Brets still get their ward save. This is the one spell I'm happy to drop though. It's high casting cost and random nature really only makes it worthwhile if you are going to be facing a lot of well armoured stuff.




Beasts gets my vote as it's dirt cheap to cast. The first four spells all cost 7 or under to get off and even the most expencive spell is only casting cost 9. This makes it a popular choice for low level wizards and people who want to get off quite a few spells a turn for minimum outlay of power dice. It's less offencive than Metal IMHO but can deal out a bit of hurt...

The Bear's Anger - Really dirt cheap to cast and can make the wizard a fairly nasty prospect in combat. Even better it can be cast on nearby characters to give them a boost. Great for stuff like BSB's.

The Oxen Stands - A great spell IMHO. No range, no LOS needed, auto rally regardless of the number of models left in the unit, cheap to cast. My mate who uses this lore in his Beastman army reckons that this is the best spell going.

The Crow's Feast - A bit of a waste of time IMHO. I'm not fond of magic missiles and this one only has a strength of three.

The Beast Cowers - Another great spell with no targeting restrictions. Really hurts large mosters as you can easily strand a creature and his rider out in the middle of nowhere for a turn. Even better is casting it into combat to prevent the monster from attacking leaving it up to the rider to win the combat by himself.

The Hunters Spear - A pretty meh spell but it does give no armour save and as it works like a bolt thrower it can hurt cavalry units if it hits them in the flank.

The Wolf Hunts - A fairly good movement spell but limited as to what you can cast it on. If you're lacking in cavalry, swarms or monsters then I'd drop the spell. Otherwise it could come in very handy and even with it being the sixth spell on the list it still only costs 9 to cast.

Kahadras

themandudeperson
27-06-2008, 21:43
Well, Teclis gets the ENTIRE six spells. I do think I'm going to break it down like this though:
Light or Fire vs Ogres and Vampire Counts to cause general casualties to Ogres and negate regeneration saves on vampires
Metal vs Bretonnians and Empire to quickly eliminate heavily armored characters and calvary as well as limit warmachines and enemies in close combat
Shadows vs High Elves and Wood Elves to one-hit wonder treefolk and help outmaneuver Wood Elves then bang up High Elf calvary with creeping death

OldMaster
27-06-2008, 22:29
Basically, the best Lore against Wood Elves is the Lore of Athel Loren : P
For the rest, I second Highbron 100%.

isidril93
28-06-2008, 09:23
well if there are loads of flammable units then use fire.
but high magic is always a good way to go

Highborn
02-07-2008, 05:35
There are plenty of models that have dragon armour and are therefore immune to all fire-based attacks.

You mean dragon princes, and heroes? Plenty of models left to fry.