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TwistedBishop
28-06-2008, 04:15
I have a very basic question regarding WYSIWYG. It's a term I've run across in a few places and, as a new player, it's giving me some concern.

Going by this rule, am I required to physically change my model's weapons every time I select different weapons for a particular army list?

Occulto
28-06-2008, 04:19
I have a very basic question regarding WYSIWYG. It's a term I've run across in a few places and, as a new player, it's giving me some concern.

Going by this rule, am I required to physically change my model's weapons every time I select different weapons for a particular army list?

In one word: Yes.

Some people don't really care, but others tend to prefer that you actually have what you're taking. Mostly to stop confusion.

starlight
28-06-2008, 04:21
Well most models don't change much from battle to battle...and it really depends on your opponents...


A pistol in a holster can be any sort of pistol, a sword can be a simple CCW or a Power Weapon, as can any other CCW. Grenades and such don't need to be modeled at all. Nifty gadgets like Teleport Homers are seldom modeled, as they are assumed to be stowed in favour of weapons.

Certain models can only be equipped one way, so some gamers use this opportunity to be creative with their modeling, as there can't be any confusion - since there aren't any options to be confused about.

TwistedBishop
28-06-2008, 04:21
How are you supposed to keep up with that? You continually yank the weapons off your models? You buy multiple troop sets and outfit each with particular weapons? There's something called "counts as" that just lets you ignore it?

Just curious how others handle it.

devolutionary
28-06-2008, 04:30
Know what you want each model in your army to do and gear them for that. Use them only for that purpose. Most people seem to build an army to use in one general way rather than to use every available list option on a whim.

Occulto
28-06-2008, 04:32
How are you supposed to keep up with that? You continually yank the weapons off your models? You buy multiple troop sets and outfit each with particular weapons? There's something called "counts as" that just lets you ignore it?

Just curious how others handle it.

Some armies (particularly Eldar) with careful modelling you can swap weapons out very easily without destroying paintjobs.

It really depends on how much you change your list - a lot of people playtest and work out what combinations work for them then stick to it. That means they're not constantly needing to swap weapons.

"Counts as" is when someone uses a model as a substitute for the "proper" option - essentially it's the opposite of WYSIWYG.

It can work in small doses, but when someone throws down an Imperial Guard army where the same model counts as three different weapons across the whole army - it gets really annoying trying to keep up, especially if your opponent can't remember what's what either. It can slow the game right down.

blackroyal
28-06-2008, 04:41
You buy multiple troop sets and outfit each with particular weapons?


Eventually, yes. Most people make an "all comers" list and have a few set squads.

Savior117
28-06-2008, 05:05
How are you supposed to keep up with that? You continually yank the weapons off your models? You buy multiple troop sets and outfit each with particular weapons? There's something called "counts as" that just lets you ignore it?

Just curious how others handle it.

Rare Earth Magnets. http://http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D101 works well for infantry weapons, if you're really concerned about swapping. Though, as has been said, most people just run with set squads.

starlight
28-06-2008, 05:52
And with the coming changes in 5th Ed, swapping options will become a lot less common...


But rare earth magnets *so* rock when you want those options. :D I have a fair number of models done with them myself. :)

Critias
28-06-2008, 06:51
That's why you don't worry about WYSIWYG for a few games (with you and your buddies all agreeing beforehand), and you experiment and see what gear you like, and THEN you finish putting your stuff together and painting it and having it configured the way you want it configured.

Cypher
28-06-2008, 09:16
It sounds to me like you're going for the "tailor your army to suit the opponent" approach. While there's nothing wrong with that, especially if everyone around you is doing it, I find it more rewarding to build a single army designed to deal with everything. It works better if you dont know who you're going to be playing, but Id say it probably makes the game more fun, as the outcome is less decided on who has the better tailored list that game.

Chaplain Mortez
28-06-2008, 09:40
You really shouldn't expect to swap out that often. Eventually, you'll find that certain weapons fit your style. Or, you'll build up a large enough army that you don't even swap out a weapon--you swap out an entire model. Most of my squads in my Black Templar army have a plasma gun and heavy bolter. I do carry around a few flamers and extra power weapon models (we can upgrade one model to carry a power weapon/fist instead of a heavy weapon) that I will swap out occasionally.

What army do you play? We could give you some better advice.

EDIT:

I should have also stated that WYSIWYG is an important rule. Many unsportsmanlike players will have a character in their army and not model him as such, using it to surprise their opponent since he looks like an ordinary trooper. Or they will have heavy weapons. This is the equivalent to cheating. In addition, if you have your army completely WYSIWYG, there is no need to remember your army list--just bring your models and your codex.

isidril93
28-06-2008, 10:13
but with characters that dont comke in a plastic kit it could be hard to model.

Chaplain Mortez
28-06-2008, 11:38
but with characters that dont comke in a plastic kit it could be hard to model.

That's what hand drills, hack saws, green stuff, patience, and creativity are for. Welcome to the hobby!

Norsehawk
28-06-2008, 12:05
it may sound daunting at first, but it's really not too bad.

Figure that for a marine tactical squad, in 5th edition its almost certain that the squad will be either 5 or 10 men. Of those 10 men, 7 will have bolters. 1 will be the leader of the squad, which comes with bolt pistol and chainsword as standard. one will be a special weapons guy, probably a plasma gun, and one heavy weapons guy if you choose to take one. So, from that squad, 7 are set. You could easily paint up a melta toting and flamer toting guy and swap them into the squad when needed. The same thing with the heavy weapons guy and the sarge. Paint a few extras and go with them as you want to. As you play more, you will pretty much get used to certain squads, and will use them as that exact setup multiple times. 10 man las/plas for example.

As others have said, it is certainly possible to model many of the models so that you can mount magnets in their hands and swap the guns out as needed.

Doomseer
28-06-2008, 13:52
I face a regular opponent who changes his setup almost every game but uses the same models. Quite often I will either forget or become confused trying to keep up with the latest equipment change which has led, on occasion, to him gaining an advantage in some small way and me getting annoyed!

This often occurs unintentionally but really sucks the enjoyment out of some games, there's already enough to deal with as it is!!

mchmr6677
28-06-2008, 14:11
The ease of staying WYSIWYG is entirely dependent on which army you are using. My Tyranids are sometimes hard because SO many options are available while my Eldar really aren't.

The Eldar have alot of options, but most of those options only effect autarchs and exarchs, and since I have a few of each I can represent whatever fits for that list. Warwalkers can be tough but either using earth magnets or aquiring additional arm mounts allow multiple loadouts. The same is true for falcons and wave serpents. Spare turrets come in very handy.

The Nids are totally the opposite. The multitude of options available almost all effect entire broods. Modelling nine-model warrior broods with enhanced senses is a major chore and requires alot of green work. Genestealers can be another problem as you only get 1/4 of the special heads needed to do things like acid maw or feeder tendrils. The carnifex is the one great exception to this however. Almost every option is either available on sprue or with a small bit of modelling can be easily represented.

My best advice is this, if you don't know how to model something yet, ask around for some ideas. Otherwise, try to make sure that everything you use is WYSIWYG. You will never get into an arguement about what a model can do if it is in plain sight.

squiggoth
28-06-2008, 14:45
How are you supposed to keep up with that? You continually yank the weapons off your models? You buy multiple troop sets and outfit each with particular weapons? There's something called "counts as" that just lets you ignore it?

Just curious how others handle it.

Don't worry too much about WYSIWYG when you've just started playing the game. Leave the arms off your figs at first, get some simple games in, and get a feel for the basic game mechanics/prefered tactics. When you've played a few games, you'll start to favour certain weapon options whilst you never choose other ones - that's when you can assemble a squad without having to worry about having to replace stuff.
Also, as your collection grows you'll eventually reach a point where you have plenty of models left on the shelf after you've created a 1500 points list, so instead of having to yank off some guy's plasma gun and replace it with a meltagun you can just put the plasmagunner on the shelf and take the spare meltagunner instead. :)

TwistedBishop
28-06-2008, 17:37
What army do you play? We could give you some better advice.




I haven't settled on one yet. My concerns came from browsing through the Tyranid codex yesterday and noticing all different options they can take.

Maybe that's the extreme example. I'm looking through the Necron book now and they seem to have a much easier time with it.

Plastic Rat
28-06-2008, 19:27
I'm a fan of magnets. Like this: http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a280/PlasticRat/magnetized.jpg

I actually don't really swap my stuff out that often I've found, I have squads that handle certain roles such as anti-armor or anti-infantry and they tend to stay in those configurations.

The magnets are more of a modeling (obsessive compulsive) challenge for me. I also find it fun swapping stuff, kinda like action figures as a kid.

Personally I don't hold my opponents to WYSIWYG, but I expect them to make an effort. If they want to try something out, cool, go for it, if it's every game, then I get annoyed. In a way WYSIWYG teaches you to work with what you have and it makes new models feel that little bit more special. If you have a generic Rhino body that you 'counts as' a predator, whirlwind or whatever else when you feel like it, it sort of cheapens actually building and owning the model.

Plus for me the biggest part is the look of the models on the table.

Personally, if I was going with Tyranids, I'd be in magnet heaven. I love options and I'd be using so many magnets in my stuff that flocks of pigeons will get lost for miles around my house.

Occulto
29-06-2008, 04:35
Personally I don't hold my opponents to WYSIWYG, but I expect them to make an effort. If they want to try something out, cool, go for it, if it's every game, then I get annoyed. In a way WYSIWYG teaches you to work with what you have and it makes new models feel that little bit more special. If you have a generic Rhino body that you 'counts as' a predator, whirlwind or whatever else when you feel like it, it sort of cheapens actually building and owning the model.

That's pretty much most people's attitudes.

No one's going to worry much about a player trying new stuff here and there, but if after 6 months they're still using a chimera as a basilisk in every game, it starts to get annoying.

Champsguy
29-06-2008, 16:41
The primary purpose of WYSIWYG is to minimize confusion.

If I am considering charging my assault squad into your chaos marines, it will make a big difference how your squad is equipped. If I naively assume the guys are equipped as modeled, and then I jump my squad over beside them, shoot with pistols, and get ready to declare charges, I am put at a real disadvantage when you say "Oh yeah, the sergeant here, the one with the bolter? He actually has twin lightning claws. And mark of khorne." Well, had I known that, I probably would have moved my assault squad differently.

You can avoid confusion by putting a piece of paper next to each squad detailing what they have (or use some other clear method of marking them -- the empty coke can with "Carnifex" written on it springs to mind). No opponent could claim to be cheated when there is a 3x5 card next to the squad saying "White primered guy w/ no arms = lascannon. Guy missing a leg = power fist." It might be irritating, but everyone would know you aren't cheating.

The second purpose of WYSIWYG is to allow for fairly nice looking armies. It can be irritating to play against the same coke can carnifex game after game. I know that a lot of players (especially younger ones, or those with families) don't have the money to simply buy tons and tons of stuff, and most people will give a lot of leeway in a game to a guy who is obviously struggling to get his first army up to 1500 or 2000 points. However, when that new guy promptly goes out and starts 3 new armies, all of them equipped poorly, my sympathy starts to wane.

Now, "counts as" is generally used in a different way. Certainly, you can "counts as" and use a coke can carnifex to your heart's content, and if your friends don't care, then you're all good. Nobody is going to beat down your door and haul you off to the gulag just because you aren't using official GW products. But in most game stores, the "counts as" rule is for building armies that aren't normally covered by the rules. For instance, I might want to play the Klendarii Raiders from Planet X. However, there are no rules for the Klendarii Raiders from Planet X. So I decide to use the Tyranid rules and just have different models represent them. Their "Bio-Tank" is really a carnifex. Their "Supersoldiers with laser-swords" are Genestealers. You can use whatever models you want for that army, as long as you are consistent (again, to avoid confusion).

--

Overall, here is my advice on the subject.

For Space Marines, Chaos, Imperial Guard, etc, if you can afford one more box of regular troops beyond what you plan to field in your army, then buy it. Equip that box with all the extra special and heavy weapons you can. As long as your army is reasonably sized, that extra box of "options troops" will be all you need. So 10 extra Marines means you can have 3 extra plasma guns, 2 extra meltaguns, 3 extra flamers, and two sergeants with power fists. You'll be able to switch out most of the weapons you will need.

As far as Tyranids go, I'll just cut to the chase. A lot of those options suck. You'll pretty much never need Genestealers with feeder tendrils (they'll be better in 5th than they are in 4th, but they still won't be worth their points). So play a few games with a counts as army and find out which options you'll never take again. The second important point is that nobody except a dedicated tyranid player (and mostly, not even those) has any damn clue what the different biomorphs are supposed to represent. Look at the carnifex, for example. He's got like 6 different heads, all of them obviously representing different upgrades. We have at least 4 different regular players at our store who have Nid armies of 3 or 4 thousand points or more (and I am one of them). None of us know what all those heads are supposed to represent. We could look at the codex, I guess, and hunt through the pages trying to figure out what head represents what, but it is easier to simply ask "hey, what does that guy have?" So as a Nid player, I suggest just building your models to look cool, and decide what specific upgrades they have later. Now, that doesn't mean you should build a walking Hive Tyrant with 2 sets of scything talons, and then tell everyone he's a winged HT with 2 sets of twin-linked devourers. Follow everyone's advice and magnetize the thing if you want to switch out big important things like guns. But when it comes to stuff like Enhanced Senses, Toxin Sacs, or Adrenal Glands? Just say "He has Enhanced Senses, Toxin Sacs, and Adrenal Glands." It should work fine.

Chaoschrist
29-06-2008, 17:45
Well, with nids I can imagine it's quite hard to do so. Upgrading/changing a marine to have a melta instead of a plasma is just a single model. Giving a squad of nids tendrils would pretty much require you to have 32 models changed.

I had it happen once or twice, when enforcing "counts as" that my opponent would be like.. no, this squad is as it is, the OTHER one is the "counts as" squad. That might mess up sometimes, especially if you're fielding 2 or more identical squads modelling wise and 2 different gamewise.

You could go for a preview of your friends armylist if he tends to go for a loose WYSIWIG approach. Tends to break a bit of the secrecy and surprise though.

If I were to play nids or any army that would make me change an entire squads loadout in the same fashion, i'd make one model, that stands out (different coloured base or something like that) and kit HIM out with all the stuff he has in my armylist, put him in the squad so HE is the model that has WYSIWIG to avoid confusion with friends. Just tell your friends "model x with the green base is the appropriately modeled unit, and all are like him". Tends to avoid confusion on armylists and whatnot. And I guess buying a box of stealers or gaunts and having a couple spare ain't that big of a deal.

A last thing as to WYSIWIG; I think people at least should put an effort in making something WYSIWIG. For a single game or trying something new I can agree, but not in the long run.

Talos
29-06-2008, 19:31
Yea with Marines the only thing you need to change are the Champs weapons or the Weapons. So yea one extra box of marines and you are set. I have played against an ork army where all there kans and dreads where just bits of card saying DA Kan or DA Stompy one.
In my CSM army I only have one unit that is count as and that is my Raptor AC he is armed with Lighting claws but the model has two sets of possessed armies and he is standing on a large rock ripping apart a Imperial Fist marine as Iron Warriors hate them. But as that model stands out and its not like saying a bolter is a lascannon. So oppents dont seem to mind.

TwistedBishop
02-07-2008, 01:12
Does color play into the WYSIWYG rule?

In order words, does it matter if you have a Space Marine force that are meant to be Ultramarines, but they're colored like Black Templars and Dark Angels?

starlight
02-07-2008, 01:16
Only if you want them to *be* Ultramarines as opposed to a Successor Chapter. Ultramarines are blue, but there's nothing to say you couldn't play a Successor Chapter with a different colour scheme.