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Skaboss
28-06-2008, 09:00
Does anyone else think that certain kinds of deep strike should not kill the unit deep striking if they scatter on a unit? for example recently i was playing a game of Apocalypse and i thought (for some reason) it would be a great idea to use the formation that allowed you to deep strike my big guys. Half of them scattered onto units of guards men and died. I was wondering how if a Caniflex lands on a unit of guards men its the carniflex that dies it would crush the guards men!:confused: the same goes for daemons and there ripping out the warp and drop pods. just a thought.

azimaith
28-06-2008, 09:03
Its so deep strike isn't insanely good. They're a bit too strict on those rules and too often they claim its players responsibilities to house rule it.

5th ed changes this a little.

Cypher
28-06-2008, 09:08
Yeah its balance, pure and simple.

Most units that can DS are capable of doing high amounts of damage, but at very short range: usually either through hand to hand combat, or being armed with weapons such as flamers or meltas. There has to be a risk element, otherwise the unit becomes too powerful. Imagine how Daemons would be if there was no danger in DSing: they would almost always be landing in a position to assault the following turn.

blackroyal
28-06-2008, 16:56
Imagine how Daemons would be if there was no danger in DSing: they would almost always be landing in a position to assault the following turn.

So people around you don't take 3-4 units of plague bearers with icons?

Kildash
28-06-2008, 17:27
uhm... not all deepstriking units just fall from the sky... terminators are the perfect example. this is how they deepstrike

input of coordinates
teleport jump
arive at coordinates (or near them)

if something just happens to be in the location you arive... you kinda morph into them, which kinda would kill you... especially if it's a rock, although it probably would also kill the ones that were already there (but that's the balance issue people were talking about)

EVIL INC
28-06-2008, 17:28
I would like to see the deep strike rules be something along the lines of terminaters, deep strike +x ammount of points.

Hicks
28-06-2008, 17:30
Deep strikers killing what the land unto could be logical in certain circumstances. But balance wise it would make deepstrikers way too powerfull. Drop guards would be crazy if they could autokill targets by actually trying to land on them.

Kyrolon
28-06-2008, 20:06
The thing I have a small issue with in this regard is the inability of "jump" type deepstrikers (Assault Marines, Swooping Hawks, Scourges, etc.) to land acurately. You'd think that they'd be able to avoid hazards most of the time. I can buy into teleporting troops being off target from time to time etc, but jump troops need to practice jumping more. :) If a huge marine Drop Pod can maneuver away from danger, why not nimble little Swooping Hawks?

If they were willing to make the game a little more complex they could add different versions of DS based on how the unit arrives.

Dan

nuclearfeet
28-06-2008, 20:20
Guardsman A: "Hey what's that, Jim?"
Guardsman B looks at something falling out of the sky right above them
Guardsman B: "I don't know, but let's shoot it!"
*hilarity ensues*

Kyrolon
28-06-2008, 20:25
Swooping Hawk A: "Look Maltharion, the foolish humans never look up."
Swooping Hawk B: Looks down on unsuspecting guardsman
Swooping Hawk A: "Let us kill in the name of Khaine." (Flicks switch on grenade pack and aims lasblaster)
*Hilarity ensues*

Sorry...couldn't resist. :)

Dan

Lordsaradain
28-06-2008, 20:27
DS units shouldn't die if they hit enemy units, they should just be placed 1" away from the enemy unit IMO. its bad enough that they all land in one tight formation and are unable to move, amking them very vurnurable to 1 turn of shooting.

nuclearfeet
28-06-2008, 20:37
if a unit deepstrikes on an enemy unit, the enemy unit should get a free turn of shooting at that unit, then they should immediately be locked in assault. makes sense to me...

Son of Makuta
28-06-2008, 20:50
I always thought this was a bit dumb, in the case of Raveners. Specially bred to come up right in the middle of enemy units, send them into disarray and then into pieces. They sense vibrations underground and home in on them to come up beneath. They know what's coming; the guardsmen/marines/whatever don't...

At least Trygons don't die when they DS. Hell no. Eat super-heavy. :D

EarlGrey
28-06-2008, 22:17
The thing I have a small issue with in this regard is the inability of "jump" type deepstrikers (Assault Marines, Swooping Hawks, Scourges, etc.) to land acurately. You'd think that they'd be able to avoid hazards most of the time. I can buy into teleporting troops being off target from time to time etc, but jump troops need to practice jumping more. :) If a huge marine Drop Pod can maneuver away from danger, why not nimble little Swooping Hawks?

If they were jumping down into a quiet meadow many miles from a battlezone, then, yeah, they would no doubt be on target. When you're landing in the middle of an intense firefight dodging bullets, smoke everywhere, the screams... then I think it's okay to be a somewhat inaccurate. :)

Norsehawk
28-06-2008, 22:21
It has apparently been changed in 5th edition. In 5th, at least according to the summary sheets that I saw on DakkaDakka, deepstrikers that land on a spot that would kill them, have an equal chance of either dying, being put back in reserve, or being placed somewhere on the game map of your opponent's chosing.

Kyrolon
28-06-2008, 23:02
If they were jumping down into a quiet meadow many miles from a battlezone, then, yeah, they would no doubt be on target. When you're landing in the middle of an intense firefight dodging bullets, smoke everywhere, the screams... then I think it's okay to be a somewhat inaccurate. :)

Good Point. Then again, despite the inaccuracy they can still manage to land holding hands in a little circle. :P

I also didn't think in my original post about the death by landing on friends problem. I'll admit, having the enemy shoot you on the way down is at least logical. But I can just see the earlier scene played out thusly:

Guardsman 1: "Hey, Jim, look a Valkyrie."
Jim looks up
Guardsman 2(Jim): "Huh. They're dropping a squad of stormtroopers. Looks like they'll land right here with us."
Guardsman 1: "Man I hate those guys, always thinking they're tough with all that special equipment."
Guardsman 2(Jim-with lightbulb above his head): "Hey, Ted, let's shoot 'em and take their stuff!"
Guardsman 1(Ted): "Brilliant!"
They open fire wiping out the stormtroopers, but unfortunately don't know the complexities of hellgun operation.

:)

Dan

kittenslayer
29-06-2008, 00:32
Deep strike is overrated for certain units :(

EarlGrey
29-06-2008, 01:09
Good Point. Then again, despite the inaccuracy they can still manage to land holding hands in a little circle. :P

I also didn't think in my original post about the death by landing on friends problem. I'll admit, having the enemy shoot you on the way down is at least logical. But I can just see the earlier scene played out thusly:

Guardsman 1: "Hey, Jim, look a Valkyrie."
Jim looks up
Guardsman 2(Jim): "Huh. They're dropping a squad of stormtroopers. Looks like they'll land right here with us."
Guardsman 1: "Man I hate those guys, always thinking they're tough with all that special equipment."
Guardsman 2(Jim-with lightbulb above his head): "Hey, Ted, let's shoot 'em and take their stuff!"
Guardsman 1(Ted): "Brilliant!"
They open fire wiping out the stormtroopers, but unfortunately don't know the complexities of hellgun operation.

:)

Dan


Haha, yeah, it's pretty hard to explain that part.
Although I guess you just don't take it too literally. Instead it represents a chance that the unit was shot out of the air by the enemy, or they've been deployed in another battlezone, or something similar.
I suppose if you are trying to deploy near your own units it would take a bit more time to deploy because you're being careful to not get in the way, thus increase the chance for the enemy to destroy you before you hit the ground (teleportation scrambling too, more time to find the frequency perhaps).
Sort of fits, but the "holding hands" I have no idea! :D

shabbadoo
29-06-2008, 01:25
I find the Deep Strike is pretty crappy actually; in particular for Terminators. A Terminator unit with stormbolters and a heavy can be firing at the enemy from Turn 1 onwards, as opposed to if they Deepstrike, they *may* show up on Turn 2, and even then, they may show up out of place or not show up at all(and they've lost one turn of shooting). One game I played, they showed up in turn 4. The unit could have been shooting the crap out of a Genestealer heavy Nid' army for three full turns instead. This would have turned a game that was a Draw into a solid victory for me. Deathwing Assault might be OK, but not that much better unless you are using a mostly Deathwing force. With such a small force though, it still is a big hindrance to have even half(rounded down) of your force sitting in reserve instead of adding their much needed firpower to the units that will deploy on Turn 1.

Deepstrike is just not very good overall. I think Necrons make the best use of it with the Veil of Darkness, but then that is not really fololw the rules for Deepstrike with regards to the unit needing to start in reserve. Veil of Darkness is tactically very useful.

kultz
29-06-2008, 07:49
Balance wise, it's pretty harsh at the moment, making only multiple redundant squads deepstriking workable.

Dropping a single squad is a bad gambit, dropping 4-5 identical burst-damage squads into the enemy is tournament tactics.


I think 5th ed changes to the deepstriking rules work okay. It definitely makes it a little less harsh on the deepstrikers, while not making deepstrikes overly powerful by making it even easier to repel deepstrikers.

Still, the abovemetioned 'free shot then lock in combat' thing might not be a bad idea with some modifications.

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-06-2008, 08:38
Still, the abovemetioned 'free shot then lock in combat' thing might not be a bad idea with some modifications.


It would be murder with certain units. Just deep strike them into a unit thats unlikely(or even worse, unable) to hurt them much with a single round of shooting and then proceed to sit nice and cosy protected in CC, chop them up in there turn, and be free to assault again in your next turn.

Penitent Engine
29-06-2008, 09:01
Maybe if it worked off of a base size-a guy on a larger "termie" base would land within 1" of a Guardsman and the Guardsman would move out of the way, but then the whole thing would be unballanced with Soul Grinders and Chaos termies dropping out of the skies onto Aspect Warriors and eating them...

It's my view that DS is meant to work properly with a shooty unit, like a squad of Devastators with full heavy kit deep striking behind enemy lines and proceeding to cause havoc.

kultz
29-06-2008, 22:47
As I said, some modifications.

Similar in idea to 'Death Or Glory', if you can hurt it, you can try, or if you can't, get out of the way.


Perhaps the player gets to choose between attacking the deepstrikers or make a fall-back move?

Jerok
29-06-2008, 23:12
With the 'new' charge responses in 5th I think a Deepstrike on an enemy should be treated as an assault move. That way it's somewhat realistic considering that the whole point of a Deepstrike is to either A) Land a Shooty Unit behind enemy Lines or B) Get an Assault squad into combat.

Look at it like this. It's the 41st millenium and a Space Marine commander has a pair of Assault Squads ready to deploy out of Thunderhawks. He has the battle lines drawn and his Tactical squads are engaging. He's not gonna say "Go deploy behind that hill so your safe." Instead, he'd say, "Purge the xenos in front of that hill!" And the Assault Squads jump out of the Thunderhawks, screaming down into the midst of some Orks with Chainswords roaring.

The point of a deepstrike is to cause damage quickly and sow confusion in the enemy ranks. To this end I think that there should be 2 types of Deepstrike depending on how a unit actual goes about doing so.

1) Visible Deepstrike - Jumping out of a Valkyrie or Teleporting leaves you vulnerable, so enemy units within 6" or 12" are allowed to take a shooting phase with all non-heavy weapons.
2) Ambush Deepstrike - Tunneling or Drop Pods keep the deepstrikers safe until they reach the enemy, surprising them and sowing confusion. If a deepstrike lands on an enemy unit there is an immediate assault phase with the defenders at -1 Ld.