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whydiablo
28-06-2008, 19:36
If my wizard engaged in close combat, can he cast any non-magic missile spell? Such as"The Burning Head".

Lord of Skulls
28-06-2008, 20:38
As far as I know he can only cast spells that specifically allow being cast while engaged in close combat.
You can at least not cast any spells that require line of sight.

Edit: Checking the rulebook I can't seem to find any rule preventing you from casting while in combat, except for the LoS. (And not casting into combat unless specifically allowed.)

Fulgrim's-Chosen
28-06-2008, 23:30
I've heard Combat only blocks Line of Sight if you are "literally" blocked from seeing within your arc of visibility.


IE...if a Wizard Lord on a Dragon or something is hit in the Rear by an enemy unit...he is in close combat. If an enemy unit is "in front of him" about 10-inches away, but he's NOT in close combat with that unit, he should be able to cast spells needing Line of Sight at that enemy unit, as his model is still facing straight ahead and he can "literally" (from the models' point of view) SEE that target unit. He would NOT (by the same logic) be able to cast LOS spells on the unit that is hitting him in his rear :p because he is not facing/able to "see" them as valid targets.

Other spells that don't need any LOS or have any restrictions at all (like Steal Soul) would work fine, IIRC.

Only Magic Missiles cannot be actively cast while a unit is in close-combat (or into close-combat, unless the spell specially allows for it).



IIRC !

Azmazi
29-06-2008, 01:26
I've heard Combat only blocks Line of Sight if you are "literally" blocked from seeing within your arc of visibility.


IE...if a Wizard Lord on a Dragon or something is hit in the Rear by an enemy unit...he is in close combat. If an enemy unit is "in front of him" about 10-inches away, but he's NOT in close combat with that unit, he should be able to cast spells needing Line of Sight at that enemy unit, as his model is still facing straight ahead and he can "literally" (from the models' point of view) SEE that target unit. He would NOT (by the same logic) be able to cast LOS spells on the unit that is hitting him in his rear :p because he is not facing/able to "see" them as valid targets.

Other spells that don't need any LOS or have any restrictions at all (like Steal Soul) would work fine, IIRC.

Only Magic Missiles cannot be actively cast while a unit is in close-combat (or into close-combat, unless the spell specially allows for it).



IIRC !

Unfortunately that isn't how it works. Once you're charged or "engaged" regardless of how you're facing, you are fighting said unit, and are unable to draw a LoS to any unit, as you're currently engaged swinging with said units, say if on dragon you could imagine him as swinging around to the right to get hits off on said unit.

This means spells that do not require LoS can still be cast.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
29-06-2008, 01:34
This is different from what I've heard in a previous thread similiar to this one. In that thread, veteran gamers/posters were suggesting that a Keeper of Secrets or Great Unclean One (Large Targets), even if engaged to their Fronts, could legitimately "See Over" the smaller (non-Large Target) enemy's at their feet to cast things like Pavane of Slaanesh or Nurgle Spell #5 (I can never remember it's name, shamefully :p) at OTHER enemy units/models in front of them, but which they are not engaged with.

? ?

Azmazi
29-06-2008, 01:38
Hmm, that could bring in another issue in due part to it being a "Large Target" not due to the fact that its because they are on his rear...now that could bring up another question.

kroq'gar
29-06-2008, 05:34
My take is LOS is blocked once engaged in combat, regardless. Largetarget only works if you are not in the fighting rank (eg as stated under rules for the slanns plaquin).

My question is similar yet different. Can a warlock engineer caste into the combat hes engaged in using the 'life is cheap' rule.

Condottiere
29-06-2008, 10:16
So a mage positioned on the edge of a regiment without any btb contact, cannot cast LOS spells?

_Lucian_
29-06-2008, 10:29
I have always played it as if he can see, he can see. So mages on edge of regiment and not in btb contact with an enemy can cast LOS spells. Ive never read a rule to tell me he cant, although i am eager to see one which does if it exsists.

Loopstah
29-06-2008, 11:43
So a mage positioned on the edge of a regiment without any btb contact, cannot cast LOS spells?

I would say a Mage not in btb contact with an enemy is not in combat.
EDIT: except for Magic Missiles.

Tarax
29-06-2008, 12:01
Wizards can NOT cast spells at units in close combat, p. 107, Casting Spells, paragraph 6.

Magic Missiles can NOT be cast while the wizard or the unit he is with is engaged in combat, p. 110, Magic Missiles, paragraph 3.

siphon101
29-06-2008, 20:27
Here's the rule, simply:

1) a spell can not be cast into combat unless the rule explicitly states otherwise

2) being in close combat does not prevent a wizard from casting spells

3) being in close combat does prevent the wizard from seeing anything other than what he is engaged in combat with, and the unit he is with.

Thus we combine the rules as follows:

A wizard may cast spells if the wizard is engaged in close combat, but if the spell he wishes to cast requires line of sight, he may only draw line of sight to the unit he is fighting, and his own unit. And since the unit he is fighting, and his own unit, are engaged in combat, he can not cast any spell on them, unless that spell specifically states it may be cast on a unit in combat

Let me illustrate by example. Let's say the enemy has four characters:

A which is in combat with the wizard

B which is in combat with another of your units, and is 12" away from the wizard

C which is not in combat and 15" away from the wizard

D which is not in combat and 20" away from the wizard.

Your spell requires an enemey character to take a toughness test and die, and the spell may only:

1) Target an enemy character within 18". Since this spell does not require line of sight, it is not required, and A, B, and C are all in range of the spell. D is not. However A and B are both engaged in close combat, and the spell does not explicitly state that the spell may be cast in close combat. So D is out for being out of range, and A and B are both out for being engaged in combat, C is the only viable target

2) Target an enemy character within 18" and in line of sight to the wizard. Because your wizard is engaged in close combat with A, the only target your wizard can see is A. So A is the only viable target for this spell, but again, because the spell does not say it may be cast in close combat, it may not be cast on A, since A is in close combat. B, C, and D are all invalid targets as the wizard has no LoS and the spell requires LoS (D is also out of range)

3) Target an enemy character within 18", and in line of sight to the wizard. This spell may be cast into close combat. Again, because of the LoS requirement, the only character the wizard can see is A. This time however, since the spell explicitly states that models in close combat are viable target, the spell can be cast on A.

4) Target an enemy character within 18". This spell can be cast into close combat. Because LoS is not an issue, the spell may target any character within 18", same as in #1. However, since this spell explicitly states it may be cast into combat, both A and B are valid targets, as is C. D is not as he is out of range.

5) Target an enemy character. This spell can be cast into close combat. This spell has no LoS requirement, no range requirement, and can be cast into close combat. A, B, C, and D can all be affected as such.

It is not the fact that the wizard is in close combat that prevents casting, wizards can cast even if they're engaged in close combat. You can't cast into a unit in close combat, and a wizard can't cast line of sight spells, except into the enemy unit, which can not normally be targeted, as that unit is, obviously, engaged in close combat, unless the spell specifies otherwise.

themandudeperson
29-06-2008, 20:43
My question is similar yet different. Can a warlock engineer caste into the combat hes engaged in using the 'life is cheap' rule.

In their spell's description it describes how it is used in close combat:
rolling 1's on the d6 hits still hit the engineer.
After that, the shots are randomized between the units in close combat.
The engineer is never hit himself after the first step.. IIRC

Fulgrim's-Chosen
30-06-2008, 01:10
Your interpretation is flawed, Syphon, because if the way you laid it out WERE true, then a player could never cast a spell like Flaming Sword of Rhuin on themselves, while in a close-combat, yet this happens all the time in games/tourneys/etc. and is accepted practice, IIRC.

AFAIK, the general restriction on casting "into" close combat usually is applied to Magic Missile spells (predominately), although others have restrictions also - like things that say "Line of Sight" - but you can't draw line of sight to models that are engaged in CC- so that would be restricted by virtue of that fact (the CC going on), etc.

Lord Aries
30-06-2008, 04:36
It breaks down as well to this: Flaming sword IS NOT being cast onto your enemy. Its being cast onto you. You can't cast spells onto enemy units in CC unless it states you may.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
30-06-2008, 05:21
Quite right, Lord Aries. An important distinction to remember !

The Red Scourge
30-06-2008, 08:12
3) being in close combat does prevent the wizard from seeing anything other than what he is engaged in combat with, and the unit he is with.

This is true in most cases, but could you please direct me to the page, where it says that LOS is blocked for Large Targets? (e.g. the mage on a dragon).

Other than that your post is spot on :)

TheDarkDaff
30-06-2008, 09:19
This is true in most cases, but could you please direct me to the page, where it says that LOS is blocked for Large Targets? (e.g. the mage on a dragon).

Other than that your post is spot on :)

You won't find it because it doesn't exist in the BRB. All the rules dealing with LoS are detailed on pg 8. Large Targets can see over non Large Targets even if engaged in combat. LoS is only blocked by combat if the enemy unit is physically in the way.

Condottiere
30-06-2008, 09:30
You won't find it because it doesn't exist in the BRB. All the rules dealing with LoS are detailed on pg 8. Large Targets can see over non Large Targets even if engaged in combat. LoS is only blocked by combat if the enemy unit is physically in the way.So we come back to the question, if a wizard situated on the edge of a regiment (which is in combat), but the wizard model itself is not in btb contact with any enemy model, does he have LOS and can he cast LOS spells?

TheDarkDaff
30-06-2008, 09:39
So we come back to the question, if a wizard situated on the edge of a regiment (which is in combat), but the wizard model itself is not in btb contact with any enemy model, does he have LOS and can he cast LOS spells?

Short answer is yes he can cast spells, but he can't cast any magic missles (specific restriction on them only) and he can only cast spells into combat if they effect only himself (like Sword of Rhuin) or they specifically say they can be cast into combat(all found on pg110 BRB).

Condottiere
30-06-2008, 09:52
That would mean a large target is similarly restricted, in which case, LOS is irrelevant.

TheDarkDaff
30-06-2008, 10:20
I don't see your point. A Large Target can specifically see over non large target troops (ie he has LoS). The only way to block it is with another Large Target. A Large Target Spell caster can cast LoS spells out of Combat because he has LoS out of combat, he just can't cast Magic Missles.

Condottiere
30-06-2008, 10:47
I don't see your point. A Large Target can specifically see over non large target troops (ie he has LoS). The only way to block it is with another Large Target. A Large Target Spell caster can cast LoS spells out of Combat because he has LoS out of combat, he just can't cast Magic Missles.
Short answer is yes he can cast spells, but he can't cast any magic missles (specific restriction on them only) and he can only cast spells into combat if they effect only himself (like Sword of Rhuin) or they specifically say they can be cast into combat(all found on pg110 BRB).Sorry, then I must have misunderstood you. I was under the impression that my hypothetical wizard, despite the fact he wasn't in btb contact with enemy models, couldn't cast LOS spells because the unit he was in was in combat.

I assumed that as a large target was in combat, then neither it nor its rider can cast LOS spells, thereby making the question whether LOS spells can be cast while the unit is in combat irrelevant.

_Lucian_
30-06-2008, 10:56
Here's the rule, simply:


3) being in close combat does prevent the wizard from seeing anything other than what he is engaged in combat with, and the unit he is with.



I really dislike the wording of this; being in cc should be changed to b2b contact in CC.

EvC
30-06-2008, 11:07
Whoever said that being in close combat means you have no line of sight made up that rule anyway.

Festus
30-06-2008, 11:10
Hi

Yes, this rule is made up.

As has already been stated, a mage in combat may not cast magic missiles, regardless of his actual LoS, all other spells can be cast as usual - if they need LoS, the Wizard has to have LoS physically.

The usual restrictions still apply though: No casting into combat unless explicitly allowed or on himself, for example.

Festus

The Red Scourge
30-06-2008, 11:51
One thing people get confused about is, that it isn't the position of the casting wizards that sets the restriction, but the target.

Wizard in CC – blast away!

Target in CC – thats a no-go (unless otherwise noted)!

The casting wizard will usually have a little trouble casting in CC though, as his LOS will often be blocked by the opposing unit.

EvilMinion
01-07-2008, 15:28
It would state that it is cast in Close Combat would'nt it?

DeathlessDraich
02-07-2008, 12:10
Lots of posts at the start devoid of any rules references except this one.:)


Short answer is yes he can cast spells, but he can't cast any magic missles (specific restriction on them only) and he can only cast spells into combat if they effect only himself (like Sword of Rhuin) or they specifically say they can be cast into combat(all found on pg110 BRB).

On the original question:

1) Burning Head can be cast out of combat because it is not a magic missile.
provided
2) The Head's chosen direction does not pass through any model in close combat.

Condottiere
02-07-2008, 12:49
While we're at it, can Lightning and Thunderbolt be cast?

Loopstah
02-07-2008, 13:16
While we're at it, can Lightning and Thunderbolt be cast?

They can only be cast on units "in sight" of the caster.
If the caster is in combat he can only see the unit he is in combat with.
Lightning and Thunderbolt don't say they can be cast into combat.

You can't cast Lightning and Thunderbolt while in combat.

Unless he or the target were a large target I suppose.

EDIT: Technically if the caster was on the edge of combat and the model in btb wasn't fully in-front of him he could see past them on one side, even if he wasn't a large target.

EvC
02-07-2008, 13:42
So the correct and most efficient answer is: yes, it can [within the limitations of the spell]

People should be careful when explaining rules. Just because something is usually so, doesn't mean it always is. Yes, a wizard's line of sight is often blocked whilst in combat. But no, that has absolutely no bearing on whether he can cast the spell or not- just on whether there will be a target or not. If there is a valid target? Cast away!

DeathlessDraich
02-07-2008, 21:12
Just 1 more addition:

Burning Head states "straight ... *any* direction" may be chosen and doesnt stipulate it comes from th caster's feet.

Therefore it is possible to choose a path which is *not* on the table but elevated and above the enemy models in combat and normally blocking the caster. :p
i.e. through a Large Target behind the blocking enemy unit, through an enemy unit in a 2 storey building behind the blocking enemy unit, through a unit on a hill behind the blocking enemy unit and through a Slann on a Palaquin while in combat with its Temple Guard! etc

Dalamyr the Fleetmaster
05-07-2008, 06:07
From the Brb Wizards cannot cast spells at units engaged in close combat unless the spell only affects the caster himself or spell description says otherwise

Vandur Last
05-07-2008, 21:07
Just 1 more addition:

Burning Head states "straight ... *any* direction" may be chosen and doesnt stipulate it comes from th caster's feet.

Therefore it is possible to choose a path which is *not* on the table but elevated and above the enemy models in combat and normally blocking the caster. :p
i.e. through a Large Target behind the blocking enemy unit, through an enemy unit in a 2 storey building behind the blocking enemy unit, through a unit on a hill behind the blocking enemy unit and through a Slann on a Palaquin while in combat with its Temple Guard! etc


Oh i dunno about this. The WHFB rules appear to be written with only two dimensions in mind. Otherwise wed have to put our flying creatures on great big 10" tall Flying Stands.

Condottiere
05-07-2008, 21:20
From the Brb Wizards cannot cast spells at units engaged in close combat unless the spell only affects the caster himself or spell description says otherwiseUnless, "by accident", the remaining length of the spell, after affecting the target, travels beyond to another unit engaged in combat, rather like a cannonball.

decker_cky
05-07-2008, 21:25
Oh i dunno about this. The WHFB rules appear to be written with only two dimensions in mind. Otherwise wed have to put our flying creatures on great big 10" tall Flying Stands.

Agreed. There's no rules for shooting at a higher or lower plane, unless you're shooting the WLC.

Condottiere
05-07-2008, 21:29
Apparently flyers land after completing their movement and when engaged in combat.

DeathlessDraich
07-07-2008, 12:24
Oh i dunno about this. The WHFB rules appear to be written with only two dimensions in mind. Otherwise wed have to put our flying creatures on great big 10" tall Flying Stands.

My comment was written with tongue in cheek.

Examples of 3 dimensional Warhammer:
1) Large Target LOS and LOS due to hills, 2 storey buildings
2) Slashing attack

However I think all measurements are made on the surface unless there is something I've overlooked.