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Grimaldus
27-10-2005, 02:24
If anyone saw my thread in the 40k general section, you'll know what I'm talking about here.
In short, my personal SM chapter, the Red Slayers, is a mildly deviant chapter...the traits I've chosen are No Mercy, No Respite, Blessed are the Warriors, and Eye to Eye....sorry, that's not strictly background, but it gives the flavour...very martial, very fierce, very...Blood Angel-ish? However, I really don't want them to be just an unknown or "forgotten" founding of BA...what I was thinking was a BA and Ultramarines geneseed mix used to create them....
Is this anyway possible, fluff-wise? Is there anything to support something like this happening before? Sure, I could easily come up with some "outthere" reasoning, but, well...I dont know, I have something against overly fluff-contradicting ideas that are merely half-clever little loop holes. I'd rather this be something supported by the 40k background, and something that could be possible.
I want the close combat, ferocious, face to face thingy that the BA's get, but also the more codex, non-Black Rage/Red Thirst thingy the BA's have, you know, something a little more "normal". The predisposition towards close combat and assault troops the Red Slayers have is their version of a diluted Red Thirst....no Death Company or total lunatics, but a large number of marines that crave close action. That would be thanks to the Ultramarines geneseed mixed in with the BA geneseed.
I guess what I need to know is merely can it be done? And can it be done with supporting fluff?

DantesInferno
27-10-2005, 04:05
Yep, see the Cursed Founding for examples of gene-seed mixing. Of course, by the name of that founding (the 21st) it is clear that gene-seed mixing can have terrible consequences.

Of the Chapters founded in that founding (in which gene-seed was experimented with and mixed), the Fire Hawks, Flame Falcons, Minotaurs and so on have all had fairly horrific side effects.

Of the Chapter most of interest to you, the Lamenters are a Chapter of the Cursed Founding said to have been created to try to remove the effects of the Red Thirst and Black Rage from the otherwise excellent Sanguinius gene-seed. However, the side effect was that the Lamenters were cursed with extraordinary bad luck, first siding unfortunately with the Astral Claws in the Badab War, then getting sent on a crusade for forgiveness right into the path of Hive Fleet Kraken.

For more info, see this link (http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/cursed/2/)

So, its possible, but probably needs a bit more development to be plausible. Some other side-effect with the tampering with the gene-seed, for instance.
As well, you're going to probably either place your Chapter in the 21st Founding (Cursed one) or give a reason why the High Lords/AM would have approved such a risky endevour.

Gavmo
27-10-2005, 05:07
I did a fair bit of research into this when I was creating my chapter. And I figure, if you're going to have mixed geneseed, make it believable.
eg: Dont do something like Space Wolves crossed with Raven Guard. Since they both have fairly unstable geneseed, it just doesnt sound like something that would happen.
But mixing something with Ultramarines geneseed would fit. Its stable and everything works.
(Even though I dont like the Smurfs.)
You could also use the Dark Angles geneseed, but its generally not used anymore. Though I think its pretty stable.

He Who Laughs
27-10-2005, 06:01
You could also use the Dark Angles geneseed, but its generally not used anymore. Though I think its pretty stable.

...mixed with Blood Angels leaves you with a bunch of skirt wearing psychopathic loonies - bit like Priscilla Queen of the Desert mixed with Texas Chainsaw Massacre (or should that be Mascara?) :D

evenar
27-10-2005, 08:55
you could use the imperial fist geneseed thats one of the most stable geneseeds although it did get rid of some of the spacemarine benefits but that doesn't matter

Grimaldus
27-10-2005, 11:34
Awesome, thanks everyone....so it is in fact possible. That's all I really needed. Perhaps they will have been a part of the 21st cursed Founding...that could be kind of cool...I'll have to check out the background on it though. A mix of Ultramarines and Blood Angels geneseed...coolness.

I'll try and come up with some believeable background on these guys and hopefully it will be able to explain why such a mixture was authorized.

Now, for something a little different, I'm thinking of the Chapter Badge as something of a 3-bladed sword...well, on banners it can appear as three separate swords, but on the shoulder pads and other iconography, it could be one sword, with one blade, with 3 off shooting points...it's hard to explain I suppose...but maybe you get the jist? One sword to honour the Emperor, and the other to to honour their two primogenitors, Guilleman and Sanguinius. All of the blades would be red of course....hmmm, perhaps a little paint will help to explain this a little better...

oh my, sorry about the horrible quality and, well horrible everything in regards to the attached file. It's morning, I'm lateish for school...and yeah, it's just to give you all an idea....tell me what you think.

EDIT:
Okay, sorry guys, the file size is apparently too big, so I'll have to give it another go some other time...must dash, at the moment.

Grimaldus
27-10-2005, 13:30
As another update, I've decided I want the Red Slayers to be of a slightly "slavic" background...like old russian stuff. Pale skinned, blue-eyed fighters from a harsh, mountainous, and snowy planet....that sort of thing.
Names such as Konstantin, Vladmirek, Viktor, Benedek, Malov, Kholm, Tal'sha...these are the type of SM we're looking at here.

Homeworld: Athala
Mountainous planet with a harsh climate, being consistantly cold and ice- covered. Is home to the Chapter's fortress monestary, Slayer's Keep, which is located at the highest point in the Vorota mountain ranges, the largest and most inhospitable section of mountains on the planet. From here, the Chapter trains, plans, and launches their wars in the name of the Emperor. New recruits are generally selected from the native populace, as the people of Athala are fierce, hardy people, who are constantly warring between clans for hunting grounds and other rescources, not to mention fighting off the planet's larger predators, which usually serve as one of the clan's food sources...if they survive. From the Slayer's Keep, the Chapter acts much as any other chapter, all the while looking down upon the people of Athala and watching for the strongest of warrior youths, looking for an indication that they might be suitable for induction into the Chapter. When a youth has been chosen, a cadre of crimson-armoured warriors appears in a flash of blinding blue light, bedecked in war trophies and ribbons, and bearing the god-weapons the Athalian people weave legends about. It is the greatest of honours to be taken by the red-armoured giants, for the people of Athala know they go to fight in the stars in the name of the Sky King, slaying and destroying the horrible, wretched enemies they've only mostly heard tales of, the monsters in the stars. Unlike many other Space Marine Chapters, the Red Slayers make no secret of who and what they are to the people of Athala. Every so often, the Red Slayers will hold parades of victory in the planet's few major civic centres, usually after returning from some unknown(to the common folk of Athala, anyway)victory beyond the stars. To see a loved one, years ago taken by the Chapter to be trained in the ways of a Space Marine, march by during one of these parades, transformed into the ultimate human fighter, or Deathbringer as the Athalian people call them, is the greatest joy and honour a family can recieve. All youths on Athala strive to one day be visited by the giants in crimson armour, and as such push themselves to be the strongest, fastest, and smartest hunter and war-leader they can be. This is the way on Athala, where blood-coloured Deathbringers watch all from their mountain fortress, culling and protecting their people, and serving the benevolent Emperor with ferocity and valour on otherworlds.


Chapter Master: Vladmirek Steeleye, Lord of the Red Slayers, Great Captain of the 1st Company

Captain Konstantin, Great Captain of the 2nd Company

Aaaaaand that's all I got for now. Just a beginning, it's in no way final.

Typheron
27-10-2005, 14:17
"New recruits are generally selected from the native populace, as the people of Athala are fierce, hardy people, who are constantly warring between clans for hunting grounds and other rescources, not to mention fighting off the planet's larger predators...

...the Chapter acts much as any other chapter, all the while looking down upon the people of Athala and watching for the strongest of warrior youths, looking for an indication that they might be suitable for induction into the Chapter. When a youth has been chosen, a cadre of crimson-armoured warriors appears in a flash of blinding blue light, bedecked in war trophies and ribbons, and bearing the god-weapons the Athalian people weave legends about. It is the greatest of honours to be taken by the red-armoured giants, for the people of Athala know they go to fight in the stars in the name of the Sky King, slaying and destroying the horrible, wretched enemies they've only mostly heard tales of, the monsters in the stars. Unlike many other Space Marine Chapters, the Red Slayers make no secret of who and what they are to the people of Athala. Every so often, the Red Slayers will hold parades of victory in the planet's few major civic centres, usually after returning from some unknown(to the common folk of Athala, anyway)victory beyond the stars"

Just a point here for your next version, you make the clans on the world seam like there relativly primative warring between each other and then mention civic centres. It would be strange for a clan based scociaty to have major civic centres outside said clan grounds.

Also you say they make it plain who they are but at the same time shove lots of myths about them from the populace, again a bit contradictory writing there.

Perhaps better explaining this as there are clans in the cold wastelands and more civilisation in the warmer regions of the planet would provide a solution to this if added in a later version of the tale.

It also should be noted that all of the cursed founding chapters have had very unpleasant things happen to them. The imperium is not as good at messing with genestock as they were whehn the emperor walked amoungst them. Typically they go one of a few ways:

1: mass mutation caused by unstable geneseed

2: some sort of curse affecting them over a long time

3: a major accident such as losing a lot of their fleet in the warp and stuff like that.

Making a squeeky clean (and by that i mean more a chapter who is "normal" in a 40k trained-psycotics-with-guns way) tends to remove some of the credability of the background that you are trying to accociate your chapter with.

Gavmo
27-10-2005, 14:25
You could always say that every so often one of them goes all Flesh Tearer and flips out. I know its been done before, but its always an option.
Or that they have a higher than normal average of guys falling to Chaos. I'd say Khorne.

cailus
27-10-2005, 22:53
In my experience Geneseed mixing is bad. My Chapter, the Impalers, were a mixture of Ultramarine/Imperial Fist geneseed and experienced the most horrific luck.

Imagine a 10 man assault marine squad charging a 5 IG command unit led by a Junior Officer with a Powerfist and the entire Assault Squad being wiped out in the space of 3 turns at the expense of 3 dead Guardsmen. Or the same Assault Marine squad charging a unit of plague bearers and only hitting once out of 31 attacks. Or a plasmacannon that overheated on every shot (i.e. rolled a 1 to hit everytime without fail). Or a Chaplain that in 3rd ed rules spent a lo of time being herded off the board. Or a Devastator squad equipped with a heavy bolter and 2 missile launchers that averaged about 5 heavy bolter and 2 missile launcher hits (out of a total possible of 18 and 12) a game. Or a Vindicator that died every game on turn 1, often to glancing shots. Or a Dread that would cause more enemy casualties when he'd explode in combat due to powerfists or rending attacks than he would in actual combat.

Such was the Chapter's ineptitude and such were it's losses that it was totally and utterly wiped out during the Eye of Terror campaign.

So don't mix geneseed. It is bad for kharma. The Emperor does not like people tinkering with his ultimate creations.

devolutionary
27-10-2005, 22:58
The cursed founding, I will just highlight, was one founding only. There have been other successful mixes of Geneseed. The Blood Ravens are one such chapter (it is theorised) and they are stable, if overly fascinated in history.

Dont feel the need to make them a cursed founding. Why not make them a member of the most recent founding, circa. M38?

cailus
27-10-2005, 23:06
The cursed founding, I will just highlight, was one founding only. There have been other successful mixes of Geneseed. The Blood Ravens are one such chapter (it is theorised) and they are stable, if overly fascinated in history.

The Blood Ravens are not that stable IMO. Wasn't their entire 5th COmpany destroyed becuase they had turned from proscribed teachings (i.e. they were either heretics or traitors)? And didn't the Captain from DoW destroy his own planet because of some sort of heresy (more Chaos worship?) which was a major source of recruitment for the Chapter? And didn't their Librarian turn to Chaos as well?

To me this points out that the Chapter is corrupted beyond redemption and should be purged. Shame the Impalers aren't around anymore to do it. They were religious fruitcakes and liked impaling psykers, mutants, traitors and other heretics on big spikes on major roads or defensive walls of planets they captured.


Dont feel the need to make them a cursed founding. Why not make them a member of the most recent founding, circa. M38?

It doesn't help. The Impalers were not from the Cursed Founding and were still spat upon by the Emperor. (I take my fluff too serious! :p )

devolutionary
27-10-2005, 23:34
Blood Ravens stuff, right. The 5th Company, as held by the official company line, vanished in to the warp around M38. There are rumours that one of the Librarians attached to the company went chaos and lured them into a trap. This is unconfirmed.

Cyrene was bombed for reasons unknown. Only Gabriel and the relevant Inquisitorial officials who sanctioned the bombardment know why this was done. OK, so obviously something was fishy, be it mutations, a sudden surge in psykers to unprecedented and dangerous levels, or the influence of a chaos cult. This is not indicative of the Chapter though.

And yeah, they had a Librarian go Chaos in DoW. His intentioned were good, he was simply overpowered by the Chaos Sorceror. This is not such a rare occurance as to condemn a chapter though.

To finish, my reason for not worrying about them being cursed founding was that if they're cursed founding, they usualyl have some severed mutations or instabilities. I was mentioning that you shouldnt feel that you HAVE to include such restrictions.

DantesInferno
27-10-2005, 23:40
To quote the Index Astartes: Renegades article (WD 303 AUS),


Though the particulars of a new Founding are shrouded in secrecy and arcane ritual, it is known that all of a new Chapter's genetic make-up is not always drawn from the seed of one 'donor' Chapter. Instead, a new Chapter may represent a genetic cocktail of the gene-seed of others, and although purity testing is rigorous in the extreme, it is perfectly possible that these disparate elements may react together at a later date, in ways quite unforseeable by their creators, and so the seed of a potentially disastrous mutation or character flaw is sown.

The Relictors, IIRC, were made with mixed gene-seed too, and we all know what happened to them. Blood Ravens are also not really that "stable", considering their rumoured practices of summoning Daemons into failed Librarian applicants, and so on.

Note: the Cursed Founding (or others) may also have experimented with mixing Traitor Legion gene-seed. Look at the Blood Ravens, Sons of Anteus, Minotaurs and so on - some striking similarities to the traits of certain Traitor Legions.

Basically, tampering with gene-seed almost always seems to have terrible side-effects for Marine Chapters, which is why I'd have extreme difficulty in believing the High Lords and AM in general would be very keen to continue with the practice of gene-seed experimentation, particularly considering the results of the Cursed Founding.

devolutionary
27-10-2005, 23:42
The Relictors, IIRC, were made with mixed gene-seed too, and we all know what happened to them. Blood Ravens are also not really that "stable", considering their rumoured practices of summoning Daemons into failed Librarian applicants, and so on.

*chokes* Since freaking when?! These guys have been made out to be tragic mystery hunters, not Daemon summoning heretics.