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Hokiecow
30-06-2008, 02:32
I played a 12000pt Apocalypse game yesterday that started from 9AM (seting up) and finished around 10PM (end of the last turn). Sure it's an Apocalypse game but we've play regular 2K to 2.5K games that have last for almost 8 hours. Some time I feel like we're putting too much thought into where to move units or who to shoot/assault that we drag the game out a bit longer then it should be. Have you found that turns are taking to long and have taken steps to speed the game up?

ehlijen
30-06-2008, 02:52
The only game I've played that went over 2.5 hours was a fantasy game of 7.5 k. Anything smaller usually does not go much overtime.

Suggestions:
Observe the 'no taking back' rule. Ie once a unit has been moved and you started moving another, you can't go back to the first one.
Don't play guard or nid in large point games, their high unit count/'two movement phases' will drag the game out. (Don't move fleet into the movement phase though, it can drastically change the outcome!)
Observe the turn limit, if you aren't already. Sure sometimes you want to play wipeout, but the game was only balanced to last 6 turns + random game lenght if applicable.
Turn off your mobile/don't answer if it rings more than once per game.
Lunchbreak after the game, not in the middle.
DO NOT discuss the game plan in comittee! Each player moves his own units and his teammates wants and needs be damned. If that's too harsh: each player on a team gets 2 sentences at the start of the turn to communuicate his wishes to the rest. Once the turn starts, let each do their stuff without interruption.
Play smaller games when not in apoc mode? 1.5k is suposed to be the standard size.
If the opponent doesn't do anything for 10 minutes but stare or deliberate, say: "Whatever it is, do it!"

Just some of the things I think would help speed up most people's games. Only employ such measures and restrictions if it's a problem though, not just because you don't like their (still reasonable) pace.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
30-06-2008, 03:15
Games normally drag on when somebody is dithering about what to do. Which is why personally I do most of my thinking in my opponent's turn.

Plastic Rat
30-06-2008, 03:24
Apocalypse games have a lot of units, so they should take long. Which is why they're played to a time limit, not a turn limit. Set your time limit and stick to it.

When it comes to normal games, we tend to play 1000 to 1500 point games. I can guess 2000 and 2500 would take longer. Still, our games tend to be insanely fast, to the point of almost being mindless (See the 'No tactics in 40k' thread). Still, if it's going slow, check out some of the following things we keep in mind when playing.

Don't stand around dawdling and talking crap when it's your turn, move your models and roll your dice. Think about your moves on your opponent's turn.

Don't discuss strategy with teammates on your turn, period. If somebody is telling somebody else how to move, they might as well play for them. Part of teamwork is knowing what you need to do without being told.

Make sure all models are WYSIWYG, it does speed up the game.

Lastly, try to figure out what specifically is slowing down your game. Rules queries? Unfamiliarity with the rules? Movement? Moving stuff back and forth? Indecision?

In theory, a game should only take as long as it takes to move all the models and roll dice.

Phenski
30-06-2008, 03:26
Suggestions:
Observe the 'no taking back' rule. Ie once a unit has been moved and you started moving another, you can't go back to the first one.
Don't play guard or nid in large point games, their high unit count/'two movement phases' will drag the game out. (Don't move fleet into the movement phase though, it can drastically change the outcome!)
Observe the turn limit, if you aren't already. Sure sometimes you want to play wipeout, but the game was only balanced to last 6 turns + random game lenght if applicable.
Turn off your mobile/don't answer if it rings more than once per game.
Lunchbreak after the game, not in the middle.
DO NOT discuss the game plan in comittee! Each player moves his own units and his teammates wants and needs be damned. If that's too harsh: each player on a team gets 2 sentences at the start of the turn to communuicate his wishes to the rest. Once the turn starts, let each do their stuff without interruption.
Play smaller games when not in apoc mode? 1.5k is suposed to be the standard size.
If the opponent doesn't do anything for 10 minutes but stare or deliberate, say: "Whatever it is, do it!"

Whoa man, what alot of annoying rules! This game is meant to be FUN!?!
Tournaments generally got our groups speed up, but sometimes the whole epic 8-10 hour games have the best moments and the best games....

plus id be well hungry if i had to wait until 10pm for lunch and my girlfriend would kill me if turned my phone off because it rang at least once that day.. :angel:

ethsar46
30-06-2008, 03:37
Simple solution would be not to play massive (10000+) pt apoc games. I mean its designed to take a whole day.

For a normal 40k game up to about 2000pts i would think 2.5 hours is enough time to play a game.
Ive found the only time the game takes awhile is when you get people who play Guard infantry/Orks/Nids who also take their time and think everything out. I believe there was a couple at a tourny i went too a few weeks ago who played orks with a 120 model count, and they always took so long because not only with 2 players did they have to discuss everything, but both of them took it down to minute details aswell.

I find WFB to be a much slower game, a 2000-2500 usually takes 3 hours or so because there tends to be much more dice rolling a rule sorting etc.

Damocles8
30-06-2008, 03:55
assuming food is close, take lunch breaks in turns on opponent's turn (i.e have 2 out of 3 players go get food, leave 1 to witness rolls); baring that collectively order pizza for each team (again during the opponent's turns)...as for phone calls, use the same idea for eating.....

ehlijen
30-06-2008, 05:41
phenski, read my last paragraph :p

Also, I was talkking more about 2k-2.5k games. You can't really draw those out to 8 hours without long and empty bits with nothing happening. Most people should be able to go 2 hours without eating and having to talk to their GF on the phone. right?

electric
30-06-2008, 05:44
phenski, read my last paragraph :p

Also, I was talkking more about 2k-2.5k games. You can't really draw those out to 8 hours without long and empty bits with nothing happening. Most people should be able to go 2 hours without eating and having to talk to their GF on the phone. right?

Depends what kind of girlfriend you have.:D

ehlijen
30-06-2008, 05:53
With a GF like that, you shouldn't be gaming in the first pace :p

electric
30-06-2008, 06:02
Au contraire, it just makes the challenge more fun.

ehlijen
30-06-2008, 06:19
If you can find an opponent willing to look at you while you do nothing but talk on the phone for half the game...

electric
30-06-2008, 06:22
Haha, no. The challenge of keeping the girl while ignoring her for a game.

Frostden
30-06-2008, 06:24
My group uses a few house rules, termed "Blob rules" to speed it up.

Blob rules:
Move your units as a big blob.
Small blast weapons hit 1/4 of the squad, fractions giving a hit on a 4+.
Flamers hit 1/2.
All units of any squad are in combat with any other unit in squad they have a model engaged with.
If you can see one model in a squad, all models can see and be seen.
If you are within 1 inch of a terrain feature, you get cover from it.
Models are all abstract cylinders.

These rules mean that you spend no time worrying about where you position models, messing around with coherency, trying to optimise your squad positioning to initiate or meet a charge...all the time consuming and finicky but not especially fun parts of the game. It also means you can use stands to move models as a squad.

Staurikosaurus
30-06-2008, 06:47
Well, for a standard 2k game my gaming group can finish in an hour. Knowing the rules well speeds the game up immensely. As for apoc, I've played 21K per side games. The way we've found to really speed the game up is to make 20 min turns and 10 min for deployment. Not every player has units on every portion of the board so you don't need to watch every single roll. It's easily do-able to have all movement and shooting done in 20 min.

Unamed Consript
30-06-2008, 07:00
Play with less people on a smaller board. I play 1500pts with a minimum of 5 players on a 6'X6' board. we have finished 3 games total! we usually start at 2-5 pm and we end at 1-5 am.

Chaos and Evil
30-06-2008, 08:07
Use more Baneblades, as they can wipe the board clear of enemy infantry quicker.

Bathfinder
30-06-2008, 08:24
My group uses a few house rules, termed "Blob rules" to speed it up.

Blob rules:
Move your units as a big blob.
Small blast weapons hit 1/4 of the squad, fractions giving a hit on a 4+.
Flamers hit 1/2.
All units of any squad are in combat with any other unit in squad they have a model engaged with.
If you can see one model in a squad, all models can see and be seen.
If you are within 1 inch of a terrain feature, you get cover from it.
Models are all abstract cylinders.

These rules mean that you spend no time worrying about where you position models, messing around with coherency, trying to optimise your squad positioning to initiate or meet a charge...all the time consuming and finicky but not especially fun parts of the game. It also means you can use stands to move models as a squad.

That's a cute one, but not for me.
The simplest in my opinion is: Move the important models first (generally they are the first and the last model (with regard to the direction of movement) and then position the others quicly in between. Thereby eliminating the need to measure movement for each one of the 30 gaunts). Saves a lot of time...

alphastealer
30-06-2008, 08:28
First off, appoc is a long game if you are playing 10k pts or more so decide if commiting a full day to one game is good for you or not.

Most of my games tend to be at 1500pt and in that size of game there is more scope for keeping time restrictions.

1) Use chess clocks. Brilliant inventions. The player whose time runs out loses either a victory point value or outright loses the game. I would opt for the latter option if you have really slow and indecisive guys who are easily distracted.

2) Keep your opponents attention. I go, "ooy" if the guy wanders off or gets involved in a group conversation during the game.

3) Cell phones should be switched off or to silent. The same curtousy applies as to when you go to the cinema. Unless you are a medical doctor on call or your wife is in labour...it can wait!

4) Forget the girlfriend. Which shouldn't be hard as many hardcore gamers are single anyway but for the rest, ask her to respect your time with the guys, like you respect her time with the girls.

5) No debating about strategy. I get steamed when I play against a guy only to have 2-3 well-meaning friends come and make endless suggestions about his strategy, which then gets debated back and forth. I tell them to leave their opinions to themselves or to wait their turn to battle me.

6) As has bee nsaid, do your thinking during the other guys turn.

7) Have dice ready to roll saves..etc. And please, please roll simply. I don't know how many times I have stood around waiting while some idiot, while trying to make a desperate 5+ save will flick the dice high up in the air, only to have it bounce off the table and elude him for 2-5 minutes.

8) If rules ae an issue (or you know they will be based on your opponent and his anal-retentive ways) then invite a senior player to invigilate your game, to quickly make a ruling on rules issues.

9) Finally, both players must have a good working knowledge of (A) The rulebook (B) Their codex (C) Their army list. If you forgot that your one squad had feel no pain 5 minutes after they have been removed and we are busy with another combat...then they stay off! Learning the hard way is usually the quickest way.

With all this in mind there is no reason why a 1500pt game can not be completed in 2 hours. And please don't use the "I hve 120 model swarm" excuse, because it is that...and excuse. Just plan your turn and move your models quickly. I play 100+ Tyranids often and I still finish my turns faster than the 35+ model marine player...so it is very possible.

The idea is not to remove the fun element but to fit in more games and to encourage each player to think faster to keep the action rolling.

I only play once a week at a local game club but like to be able to get 2x 1500pt games in during the evening. So if we start at 7 I will leave at 11:30 having played 2x 1500pt games and having had a chat here and there.

Thoughts?

Ronin_eX
30-06-2008, 09:16
The best ways of shortening game times are:

a) Know the rules - The less referencing and arguing the better things will go.
b) Play in the game's "sweet spot" - 40k isn't balanced or designed to be played at levels larger than 2,000 points and still run smoothly. The game is designed for a sweet spot in between 1500 and 2000. Beyond that the clunky bits of the system (like the over-complicated resolution mechanic) become a real time waster (especially if your opponent needs to run to the bathroom during shooting and you have to wait for armour saves).
c) Play a game with smoot, well developed rules - Hmm, not much help for 40k... drats. :p
d) Don't bloody well do multiplayer - Even at 2000 points an army that's 6000 points on the table and the extra player turns add unneeded overhead to the game. You can expect to be waiting for 30 minutes to an hour for your turn to roll around in that case. This goes back to staying in the system's "sweet spot". 40k is not designed (like many wargames) to be played in a 3+ player free-for-all. Team games are fine (just remember to set a reasonable point limit for each) but as soon as multiple player turns comes into it that slows the game right down.

Beyond that most everything else is situational though thinking about you gameplan in the enemy's turn is a good use for that horrid gap between periods of activity. As for getting embroiled in conversations, lunch breaks, calls from the significant other, etc. well it happens; suck it up this is gaming not boot camp. Especially in the case of chatting people up during the game. I mean IGOUGO isn't exactly the most efficient turn system when it comes to player involvement.

40k is mostly a social experience for me as opposed to a well crafted wargame. I don't know if I could stand playing it if I was chatting with friends during it.

With that in mind playing the game should go over an hour or two at most. As for an 8 hour long game... I can't imagine spending so long on a single game. I don't think I've played many wargames that went over 3 hours (outside of 40k mega-battles which bore me to tears and tend to take at least 4 to get to the half way point... no wonder I prefer skirmish ;)).

Doomseer
30-06-2008, 09:51
If you and your opponent(s) know the rules well enough and have armies you are both experienced with, even games at 3000pts can run smoothly and with few delays in 2-3 hours. In Apocalypse we allow an hour for every 1000pts and then add an hour for setting up/packing away and any unexpected interruptions. So far our 5000pt games have all been completed within 5 hours with no stress! 5th edition is going to speed things up nicely in a lot of ways.

We try to limit using units we are new to in larger battles. If we have a new unit we try it out in 1000-1500pts wherever possible until we are familiar with it, obviously some formations are only applicable to Apocalypse so we get used to those at 3000pts!