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Granitearm
30-06-2008, 13:29
Wanted to get your opinion on the Changeling.

When I first read the Changelings rules I thought he was amazing "He'd be a great Ogre Tyrant killer, what with the stat swapping and all." But then I read his rules again, and saw it said he swaps his stats for his opponents. Van Horstmann's Speculum (the closest item for comparison purposes) says it swaps the characters stats with his opponents.

This, to me, seems to mean that the Changeling gets his opponents stats, but the opponents stats remain unchanged.

So what do you think?

theunwantedbeing
30-06-2008, 13:31
You swap stats.
So the changeling gets his stats, and he gets the changelings stats.

lparigi34
30-06-2008, 14:20
It clearly says "SWAP", no discussion here, no purpose for the poll.

...and for the stupid one that voted "For: Opponents stats remain unchanged" it was myself... by mistake... duh!

Lijacote
30-06-2008, 14:46
Why would the Changeling's opponent be changed?

Loopstah
30-06-2008, 15:35
So what do you think?

That you misread the changeling entry because it clearly states "with" and does not include the word "for" anywhere in the rule.

lparigi34
30-06-2008, 18:00
Why would the Changeling's opponent be changed?

'cause its in the rules?

Condottiere
30-06-2008, 19:39
This would depend if you're dealing with a changeling or a doppelganger.

EvilMinion
01-07-2008, 03:12
Yes! Thank you so much for this poll. Hehe..

... So you do swap right?

Loopstah
01-07-2008, 10:13
... So you do swap right?

Yes, you do swap, because it says "with" not "for" like the OP believes.

Lijacote
01-07-2008, 19:40
'cause its in the rules?

A compelling argument. I concede this to you.

Morentez
01-07-2008, 22:04
Swaps FOR would hint that the changeling changes his for his opponents but his opponents would remain unchanged... If it wanted to change the opponents stats it would also say the opponent swaps his stats FOR the changelings...
or it would say changeling swaps stats WITH opponent... however it says FOR so gramatically its only the changeling who changes

(also logically why would him changing into you make you any weaker???)

EDIT: Oh if it says with then ignore me completely

Ganymede
02-07-2008, 03:26
Linguistically, a changeling can swap his opponent's stats with his own and still end up with an opponent with original stats. With such a notion in mind, the use of either "with" or "for" is a moot distinction. A far more clear wording would be if the two swapped eachother's stats.

The description does not say that his opponent gets the stats of the changling and nor would it make sense. It is the changeling that is transforming, not his opponent.

DeathlessDraich
02-07-2008, 11:41
This seems to be the right place to bring this up since this is an opinion thread:

1) The Changeling swaps WS, S, T, I , A *values*.

Values is the word used and *not* base characteristics unlike Van Horstmanns.

What modifications have you permitted or have you chosen to interpret that values = base characteristics?

My choice: Values = values of the WS, S etc to be used at the start of combat i.e. includes all modifiers from magic and weapons.
So far all my opponents have disagreed and I've had to conceed the point.

Loopstah
02-07-2008, 12:10
This seems to be the right place to bring this up since this is an opinion thread:

1) The Changeling swaps WS, S, T, I , A *values*.

Values is the word used and *not* base characteristics unlike Van Horstmanns.

What modifications have you permitted or have you chosen to interpret that values = base characteristics?

My choice: Values = values of the WS, S etc to be used at the start of combat i.e. includes all modifiers from magic and weapons.
So far all my opponents have disagreed and I've had to conceed the point.

Good point.

GW need to tighten up on how they define things.

I also agree that the idea of the changelings opponent gaining the changelings stats does seem odd, considering the changeling is only impersonating them, which would suggest it goes one way only.

However as it stands their use of the word "swaps with", implies a two way process rather than if they had written "replaces his own with". Then again fluff and rules don't always match.

Granitearm
02-07-2008, 12:51
I also agree that the idea of the changelings opponent gaining the changelings stats does seem odd, considering the changeling is only impersonating them, which would suggest it goes one way only.

This is the point I was (oh so unsuccessfully:o) trying to get at. It just doesn't make sense to me that the opponents stats would change.

But that'll teach me to try to ask specific rules questions from memory while I'm bored at work!

Gazak Blacktoof
03-07-2008, 11:07
If it really is unclear then go with the fluff (if there is any).

I don't have access to the daemon book so I can't comment any further.

lparigi34
03-07-2008, 13:37
If it really is unclear then go with the fluff (if there is any).

I don't have access to the daemon book so I can't comment any further.

I do tend to disregard fluff, specially when it contradict rules.

In this case, IMHO, it provides clarification.

So I humbly concede and apologize. :)

Reinnon
03-07-2008, 13:45
we are discussing common sense when it comes to a shapeshifting daemon. I can see GWs excuse being "its magical".

Dalamyr the Fleetmaster
05-07-2008, 04:52
IMHO i think the rules throw the fluff out of the window

It says swaps! not may gain, or becomes the same as, it says swaps.

A swap as far as I interperet, means you have this and i'll have that, therefore changeling gains said ogre tyrants stats and ogre tyrant gets changelings stats.

Vandur Last
05-07-2008, 20:18
Its possible to "swap" my stats "with" OR "for" your stats without affecting your stats.

Considering that
1) Van Horstman's Speculum specifically says that the opponent will now have my stats
2) The fluff of a changeling doesnt imply anything about your stats changing

Means that id have to rule RAI that your stats dont change, just the changelings. If they wanted to affect the stats of those fighting a changeling they would have specified so.

DeathlessDraich
07-07-2008, 11:17
Considering that
1) Van Horstman's Speculum specifically says that the opponent will now have my stats

This is essentially different from the Changeling because it is:
A) In a challenge
B) The word 'enemy' is used which the FAQ [finally] clarified as rider only if mounted



2) The fluff of a changeling doesnt imply anything about your stats changing

Means that id have to rule RAI that your stats dont change, just the changelings. If they wanted to affect the stats of those fighting a changeling they would have specified so.

1) I'm sorry, not having a go at you, but after listening to so many rules arguments between players, the notion of RAI is actually RAII - Read as I Interpret. So it is best not to introduce RAI into a discussion since none of us can actually know what the rules writers' real intentions are.

2) Once again it is *not* stats which are swapped but *values*. What *values* really mean is anybody's guess.

The changeling rule is "swap *any* or all of his etc values with his chosen foe [enemy model]".


Here're 3 more scenarios to consider:

A) Changeling vs Giant:
Changeling gets the Giant's Special attack! - he can however choose to attack a different model and not the Giant, Stuffing a lord into his bag!, killing an Ogre Tyrant! etc

B) Changeling vs Chariot:
This is practically impossible to interpret. Dire Wolf miserably did not attempt in their Van Horstmann's FAQ to fully explain this.
The Changeling can only choose the Toughness of the chariot chassis because that is the *only* Toughness offered on a chariot profile.
leading to the following Interpretations:

i) He only swap values with the chassis - i.e. 0WS,0A - a very harsh and unfair interpretation.

ii) The Changeling chooses *values* from those available in the model, some from the rider and some from the chassis - the other extreme interpretation which hinges on the word *any* in the Changeling rules

iii) The Changeling Toughness of the 'chassis' but other values from the Crew.

iv) If there is a character, the Changeling adopts all values of the character except for the Toughness.

Only (ii), (iii) and (iv) are reasonable.

If you think that 'rider only' is the best way consider the next example!


C) Changeling vs Steam Tank:
There are no stats for the 'rider' except for Ld & BS!!
Obviously S,T are swapped but not I.
What if the Changeling wishes to swap attacks?

In the Daemon turn no SP are generated - no attacks or the Changeling could have used his 1 attack by *not* swapping only attacks.

In the Empire turn SP are generated - It has to be assumed that the allocation of SP is decided by the Engineer.
No problems if SP is used for shooting.
But if they are used for Grinding or not used up [all targets have moved out of LOS by fleeing possibly], then the Changeling gets to Grind!

Zilverug
07-07-2008, 11:36
My interpretation is that Changelings cannot swap anything against chariots, steam tanks and similar contraptions.

Reinnon
07-07-2008, 11:47
for the sake of psanity i would have to agree that things like steam tanks and chariots don't "proc" the changling ability.

That is purely my viewpoint and atm not based on RaW, but if i used the changling (or played against it, unlikely as i'm the only real tzeentch player in my club) thats how i would rule it.

Giants is an interesting one though, would create a fairly funny situation, once again i feel the changling is a character that uses the most important rule alot.