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Andrew Luke
01-07-2008, 03:22
Here it is. I consider it optimized with the exception of the corpse-cart necro. I would swap it for another vamp (or maybe a wight king?) but the model is just too cool! I want to take this to a GT in the near future, so hard, compy, all-comers :-D


Lord, LotD, MotBA, DA, Flayed Hauberk, helm of command, Black Periapt 370

Vampire, BSB, Avatar of Death, Dark Acolyte, Drakenhoff 300

Necromancer, Scroll, Arkhan, Corpsecart, Balefire 215 Characters:885

10 Skeletons, FC, Spears 110

15 Skeletons, FC, War Banner 165

15 Skeletons, FC 140

5 Dire Wolves 40 Core Total 455

15 Grave Guard, GW, FC, Banner of the Barrows (+1 to hit) 270

6 Black Knights, Barding, Seneschal, Banner of Strigos (Hatred) 235

4 Fell Bats 80 Special total 585

6 Cairn Wraiths, Tomb Banshee 325 Rare Total 325


Total 2250

Frankly
01-07-2008, 16:17
Whats it optimized for? I mean, the magic phase isn't that strong and your units are under strength, its not highly mobilie or extremely hard hitting.

You have spent a bundle on characters, but they don't seem to work with the rest of the list.

So what do you want to do with the list?

Stinkfoot
01-07-2008, 19:18
I agree with Frankly. Your magic phase is rather weak (for VC) and with the exception of the wraiths you don't have anything too impressive in close combat. I'd drop the bats (they kinda suck) the wolves (raised zombies do the same thing and are free), the skellie spears (skeletons are better not using them, and they cost points) and the corpse cart (it's let me down too many times). Use the points to bulk out the grave guard and get a Vargulf.

I wouldn't really bother with the necromancer at all if you don't give him a powerstone, as he can't reliably cast danse (the spell he ought to have) without it. You lord is a dedicated caster, so he should trade his armor for the book and just avoid combat. That will free up points on the necromancer for a powerstone. If you want your lord to be able to fight, you need to give him some kind of weapon.

I'd probably drop the BSB status from your vampire and just take another vampire as well. Since you need to raise so many skeletons I think you'll want at least one more guy with LotD.

Andrew Luke
01-07-2008, 19:26
I have only played about a half dozen games of Fantasy, but I signed up for a GT in january so in six months need to be an expert! I've been trying a few different approaches, and these are units that I have and like to work with. So far I haven't played a list that can keep me from getting all my skeleton units about 20 before something hits them. I have been playing the grave guard at 22-24 for awhile, but I find with the regen banner on nothing can kill them anyway. I tend to keep my army very clustered to keep my characters alive at all costs. Otherwise If I can kill their wizards and thus have unfettered magic phases, they literally can't kill me. (Everything in the army gains back D6 from invocation except knights and wolves). I haven't tried this againts a gunline, but with the way things are now I am more worried about daemons and other VC. Do you think this will work, or will I need more power dice?

Andrew Luke
01-07-2008, 19:30
Another route I was considering was giving the Lord a dragon and forbidden lore, and running two other vamps with Dark Acolyte and Lord of the Dead to do the bulk of the raising. I like te idea of a dragon, but as it can't flee from charges I would probably use it very conservatively and not get its full potential value... If only you could put hero level vamps on a monstrous mount!

Stinkfoot
01-07-2008, 19:49
I've never used a dragon, so I can't help you on that front. I'd say VC is one of the few armies where a dragon isn't a huge boost to your game plan, as you need your general to march, and if he takes a cannonball you basically lose the game. I'd keep him on foot.

20 skeletons isn't enough, they need to outnumber the enemy. That usually means 25-30 skellies per unit (depending on the enemy).

Grave guard may not die with 15 men, but they won't win combat that often either. Skellies are around to not lose, GG are around to win. Don't confuse the two.

To be honest I don't use GG; skellies can easily win battle on their own with adequate flank support. They cost a lot less too, seeing as I don't need to buy full units. GG seem popular though, so there must be something to them.

I don't think you have much to fear from a gunline, as your men come back after they die. Other VCs don't have any innate advantage, though they may be making a more optimized list. I'm still waiting to play daemons, but I would imagine tying up his greater daemon with a ton of zombies then hammering his expensive core with your heavy hitters should do the trick.

Scooner
01-07-2008, 20:31
ive gone against a magic line of HE, gunline of empire, and a magic / combat daemons and VC's can cope well.

you just need to prioritise the units u need to take out. i do take 2 corpse carts with balefire and it does work really well. t gives the enemy something to think about. i even used one against a strong chaos aspiring champ on pony an the cart beat him, chased him and killed him....not a normal thing ut i have had so much sccess with them.

ghouls are the way to go to race up to 16 inch by end of your turn 1 then many dances....24 inch of movement then 11 poison atacks from a front line of ghouls...

its all great!!

Frankly
01-07-2008, 20:44
Lord, LotD, MotBA, DA, Flayed Hauberk, helm of command, Black Periapt 370

Vampire, BSB, Avatar of Death, Dark Acolyte, Drakenhoff 300

Necromancer, Scroll, Arkhan, Corpsecart, Balefire 215 Characters:885

10 Skeletons, FC, Spears 110

15 Skeletons, FC, War Banner 165

15 Skeletons, FC 140

5 Dire Wolves 40 Core Total 455

15 Grave Guard, GW, FC, Banner of the Barrows (+1 to hit) 270

6 Black Knights, Barding, Seneschal, Banner of Strigos (Hatred) 235

4 Fell Bats 80 Special total 585

6 Cairn Wraiths, Tomb Banshee 325 Rare Total 325


Total 2250

I don't think its a bad amrylist actually to be honest, but some fine tuning wouldn't hurt.

Personally, I think the list would benefit from a stronger magic phase to help flesh out your units in game. The book and the staff of damnation are must have's in tournaments imho. Personally I go the vapmire mages over necros since they get to cast with more dice and can protect themselves better.


I think if you strengthen your magic phase you'll see added impovement of the unit choices.

I don't mind seeing small unit sizes as long as the list has a magic phase that can bolster them through out the game.

Personally I'd split that banishee unit into 2 units and spread the mayhem.

Andrew Luke
02-07-2008, 04:26
Thanks all! I am going to play 2-3 games on Thursday, and I think I will try both splitting the wraiths and swapping the cart for an additional vampire and see what happens. I kind of see the Drakenhoff banner as a bit of a crutch, so I may also drop it down to a normal BSB, give the bearer the staff of damnation, and bulk the grave guard up to 22. I will let you know how it goes.

Frankly
02-07-2008, 11:38
Good luck.

keep trying out combos and see what fits, play the get your tactics and ideas going, not to win for your next few games. Vampires are really good at buffing and supporting this E.d. so that takes time to work out a viable strategy for your armylist.

Again good luck.

Andrew Luke
07-07-2008, 15:53
So heres what I ended up running:

Lord, LotD, MotBA, DA, Flayed Hauberk, helm of command, Book of Arkhan 390

Vampire, BSB, MotBA, Drakenhof 300

Vampire, DA, Avatar of Death, Gem of Blood, Scroll 200 890

10 Skeletons, FC 100

15 Skeletons, FC, War Banner 165

15 Skeletons, FC 140

5 Dire Wolves 40 445

20 Grave Guard, GW, FC, Banner of the Barrows (+1 to hit) 322

6 Black Knights, FC 208

3 Fell Bats 60 590

6 Cairn Wraiths, Tomb Banshee 325 325


2250


In the Game of Record I was absolutely trashed by this HE list:


Mage Lord, Ring of Bound magic missle, other stuff

Lvl 2 with +1 PD, -1 my DD

21 Seaguard, banner, Muso
21 Seaguard, banner, Muso
21 Spears, banner Muso

Lion chariot
Regular chariot
6 Dragon princes w/ banner of move through woods.

2 Great Eagles,
RBT

None of my Vamps rolled vanhel's :cries:
He got magic missile on both and flames of the pheonix on his lord :eek:

Terrain was a wood in the center on each edge, and a hill right in the middle of the board.

He deployed from my left to right:

Both chariots, eagle, Seaguard, Spears w/ Lvl 2, Seaguard w/ Lvl 4, Eagle, RBT, Dragon Princes

I Deployed:

Skellies w/ warbanner, Skellies with Lord, GG with BSB, Skellies with Lvl 2, Black Knights, Fell bats and wraiths behind the main line and wolves waaay out on the right flank.


In summary, I lost badly. My direwolves and bats tried to chase after his RBT but both got shot to bits. My lord rolled really poorly for invocation (1 out of 5 turns 1 and 2) so my units were undersized. None of my nasty spells went off. My wraiths were hiding scared from his magic missiles and never saw combat.

His eagles totally screwed my movement and I had nothing that was able to deal with them. (This should have been what my bats and wolves did, instead of suicide run to the RBT)

I should have avoided the hill entirely, even with regen 42 seaguard shots easily stripped a rank.

I need to take Forbidden lore for the guaranteed Vanhels. That would have definitely been more useful than the crown in this game.

I also should have charged the wraiths full speed up the flank, magic missiles be damned.

Anyway, despite my poor decisions, my list still left me feeling let down. If I had had more maneuverability, larger numbers, and a less unruly magic phase, things would have went a lot better. So, suggestions on the list?

Frankly
07-07-2008, 16:44
my list still left me feeling let down

Don't worry to much about it.

Sounds like you were looking for vals to do alot of work for you. It's number one in the dispel charts for alot of opponents if you get it. Never count on it to win games. summoning or unit healing will win you games in your magic phase.

I think the list needs a stronger magic phase if your going to run MSU skellie units, so you have the control and push through neheks and draw out his dispel dice, giving you a chance get off your bigger spells if need be.

summoning zombies is your next big weapon big unit(s) of zombie should have been raised infront of his WM and kept on threatening it or atleast blocking LOS and drawn out of dragon riders into a combat. Actually do you have zombie models to raise?


Keep at it, look at other bound spell items like staff of damnation for example. It also sounds like you learnt a thing or two about your list and thats really important.

Andrew Luke
07-07-2008, 16:54
I think I will add another bound, probably staff of damnation, and run these bounds at the start of the phase to draw out dice. My opponent had 6 dispel dice, so he could easily stop anything he wanted, whereas starting with the bounds would at least force him to use a few dice. I think I may also want to give the second vamp Lord of the dead, so i have two more dice able to raise skellies about starting strength. I was able to raise zombies to block the Dragon princes actually, but failed both Ion's to get them up to a decent number, so they got wiped out and they overran into their intended target anyways.

Malagant
07-07-2008, 17:35
The situation might have prevented this, but I've had a lot of luck with orienting the zombies so that the enemy will be left facing away from his intended target. You might already know, I don't want to be pedantic, but you can face the newly created zombie unit any direction you want, which makes them ideal for redirecting chargers!

I like your list, not terribly different from mine (though I prefer ghoulishness to rattling bones!). I've been fiddling with mine for months, and keep re-tooling my vampires. You'd said earlier you wanted to try without the Drakenhoff...I started using that too, and my effectiveness went up considerably when I dropped it. It makes one really hard unit, but it's so many points! You could drop the Drakenhoff, buy a naked BSB Wight King, and still have points to buy some more toys for the ex-BSB Vampire to boost the magic phase.


I think I will add another bound, probably staff of damnation, and run these bounds at the start of the phase to draw out dice. My opponent had 6 dispel dice, so he could easily stop anything he wanted, whereas starting with the bounds would at least force him to use a few dice. I think I may also want to give the second vamp Lord of the dead, so i have two more dice able to raise skellies about starting strength. I was able to raise zombies to block the Dragon princes actually, but failed both Ion's to get them up to a decent number, so they got wiped out and they overran into their intended target anyways.

Andrew Luke
07-07-2008, 18:19
I actually tried that, and I was a little unsure how the rules worked. His overrun only barely clipped by skeleton unit. If it had wheeled it would have maybe gotten two DP's in B2B. However, as you have to maximize the number of models in contact, he just slid it over so all 6 were in combat. Is this right or did I get hosed?

Malagant
07-07-2008, 18:44
From my experience on Lorenz, different folks play this differently. Some folks are very strict about not sliding to maximize, while others use the Warhammer Rule Errata/FAQ examples to slide. (First article listed below.)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=2&aId=3000006&start=3

Technicaly, by the letter of the law, no 'sliding' is permitted. You got hosed. By the FAQs recommendation, the DP could slide to maximize b-t-b. You still get hosed. :)


I actually tried that, and I was a little unsure how the rules worked. His overrun only barely clipped by skeleton unit. If it had wheeled it would have maybe gotten two DP's in B2B. However, as you have to maximize the number of models in contact, he just slid it over so all 6 were in combat. Is this right or did I get hosed?

Sarael
08-07-2008, 09:34
Lord, LotD, MotBA, DA, Flayed Hauberk, helm of command, Black Periapt 370

Vampire, BSB, Avatar of Death, Dark Acolyte, Drakenhoff 300

Necromancer, Scroll, Arkhan, Corpsecart, Balefire 215 Characters:885

Necro's illegal: Scroll + Book = 60 points. Try Book + Helm + Crown of Stupid or Wristbands for your Lord. Also, Drakenhoff is a tad expensive for infantry blocks, IMO.




10 Skeletons, FC, Spears 110

15 Skeletons, FC, War Banner 165

15 Skeletons, FC 140

5 Dire Wolves 40 Core Total 455


Spears? I hate them, but then again, I prefer ghouls over skellies anyway.



15 Grave Guard, GW, FC, Banner of the Barrows (+1 to hit) 270

6 Black Knights, Barding, Seneschal, Banner of Strigos (Hatred) 235

4 Fell Bats 80 Special total 585

6 Cairn Wraiths, Tomb Banshee 325 Rare Total 325


Total 2250

I have no complaints with the rest of your army. However, w/o 4 casters and 2 scrolls, you leave yourself at the mercy of a strong magic phase, and as is always a problem with VC, you leave yourself at the mercy of a high mobility army.

Frankly
08-07-2008, 12:03
Can I please suggest running something like this:

Lord, lvl4, skull staff
vampire, lvl2, book
vampire, lvl2, damnation staff
vampire, lvl2,

Use lord of the dead on 2 vampires + whatever other items and powers you want. And then from here work backards on your power levels and how many power dice your list needs to control its own magic phase.

The reason is that if you stack up your magic phase it will give to a better understanding of how to use it. It will let you get spells through against most anti-magic defences and it will give you room to make mistakes.

Thats how I started running my list out of the new armybook, I found is really easy to get to grips with the combos and over all strategies of my list since I had alot of room to move in my major phase of my turn, the magic phase.

Andrew Luke
10-07-2008, 05:22
Here it is:

Lord, LotD, MotBA, Forbidden Lore, Skull Staff, helm of command, +1 Lvl. 450

Vampire, BSB, DA, Staff of Damnation, LotD, Biting Blade 215

Vampire, DA, Avatar of Death (GW), Book of Arkhan 185 850

15 Skeletons, FC 140

15 Skeletons, FC 140

15 Skeletons, FC 140

5 Dire Wolves 40 460

19 Grave Guard, GW, FC, Banner of the Barrows 322

6 Black Knights, FC, Dead Legion 233

3 Fell Bats 60 615

6 Cairn Wraiths, Tomb Banshee 325 325


2250

I took yalls advice and went heavy on the magic. I couldn't muster the courage to include a 4th vampire or Wight king, but I think this list will fair a lot better than last week.

Possible opponents tomorrow include O&G, Nurgle Daemons, Slaanesh D's, Khorne D's, Beasts, Wood Elves, High Elves, Lizards, Dogs of War, and maybe some others (should be a good crowd :D) I will let you know how it goes...

Frankly
10-07-2008, 11:26
I couldn't muster the courage to include a 4the vampire ...

.... I will let you know how it goes...

Lol you should have tried a 4th vampire, just for kicks.

Yeah let us know how it gos.

Malagant
10-07-2008, 17:44
My God, man...replace the Skeletons with Ghouls and our lists are nearly identical :)

Needless to say, I like your list, and think it will be very effective!

Andrew Luke
11-07-2008, 15:37
Victory! It turned out to be Skaven, and I stomped 'em pretty hard. I had a nice opponent (although he had been playing too much Ancients and Warmachine, so the game dragged on a bit, we only finished 4.5 turns in 2:45 :-o). His list went something like:
30 odd Clanrats w/ Grey Seer
25ish Storm vermin with BSB,
25ish Plauge Monks
8 Censer bearers
25ish slaves
3 Rat Ogres
2 enginseers
A spattering of Jezzails, Ratling guns, warpfire throwers, globadiers
10 Gutter runners, the scouts with lots of magical attacks and poison?


My wraiths were able to use terrain well to get to his flank unscathed. I then tried to use them to mop up the last 2 censer bearers remainng after a great Gaze roll, and then started failing toughness tests like mad! (Is this a 'magical attack' and thus will affect ethereals?) This is where I found the Staff of Damnation handy, and I wiped them out in my next magic phase :D

Ths Skull staff + LotD combo was absolutely killer. It makes an average IoN roll on skellies a 5.5, which means two dice needed to dispell. I was able to bulk up units easily and healed both my vamps and wraiths as needed. I rolled crap spells for both lvl twos, (1,6 and 1,5) but I was able to get winds of undeath off once and the skull staff made for easy 2-dice vanhels.

I thought this list was great, the only thing I would want to change is to protect the vampires a little better. My BSB took a wound from a Plague monk champion, which was a little embarassing. I am think I will swap my Great weapon vamp with the model I am currently using for a general, and then give my General Dread Knight for the 2+ save. I am considering a Dread Knight + Walachs Hauberk for the BSB (1+, 5+ Ward), as then I can be fairly reckless and stick him into any combat I want.

The man of the Match was the Black Knights however. The double Unit strength banner was absolutely awesome. My opponent thought he was crafty, perching his slaves 9 inches from the crest of a large kill. Thus if my knights moved atop the hill to see they would be charged, and if they tried to go around the hill his scouts' poisoned nastiness could nab them. I just tarpitted the scouts with zombies, and marched on up the hill. My 3 static res from the hill, standard and outnumber almost matched his 3 ranks +standard, I killed 3 slaves, and off they went! The knights then proceeded to roll up the line, hitting each an every infantry block that was engaged with each skeleton unit in its flank, wiping them all out except the grey seers clanrats, which managed to flee 12 inches.

List worked great! I will probably try and optimize the vampires layout before any GTs, but for now I still have plenty to paint and I am content :)

Frankly
11-07-2008, 20:57
Well done, congrats.