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Zoink
27-10-2005, 12:47
Anyone play with the verminlord? What's he(it?) like?

I was considering it as an easy way to boost my army from 1500 (when I get there) to 2000.

The model looks pretty funky...and there are a few mint ones on ebay at the moment.

Threch
27-10-2005, 19:04
I like him. The radius of immune to psycology is a godsend for a skaven army. The 9 ld is nothing to sniff at either. The real keystone to him being a viable option, in my opinion, is the fact he isn't a large target. Since he can't join a unit his lack of hugeness is the only thing that keeps him from being blasted by cannons and bolt throwers and the like.

I think his biggest weakness is magic that does not require line of site. Heavens spells and others of the sort are bad enough, Slannesh spells will just ruin him.

Obviously he will be a huge points sink in a 2k fight. I would recommend trying to get as large a slave force as you can with him. A 42 point unit of 20 slaves and a musician are always worth their cost. When they are LD10 even with only 1 rank and immune to psycology they are incredible fodder.

skavenguy13
27-10-2005, 22:29
Notes: 20 slaves with musician is 44 points.
Verminlord is unofficial in 6th edition.

I never used the big monster myself, but I don't think he'd be too much of a point sink in a 2k game. As Threch mentioned, giving immune to psychology would be very useful to have extremely reliable slaves. And if you make a combiend charge, you're assured a victory in CR with all those ranks/outnumber !

DeathMasterSnikch
27-10-2005, 23:02
I want to get one. But all the Ebay ones are painted. Most of them badly.

I don't accept painted models but if i see one going or a nice price unpainted il take it :p

Mad Makz
28-10-2005, 00:52
I wouldn't use him (being non official) but from memory he can't lead your army nor join units, so his leadership 9 is effectively wasted, dropping your army down to a pretty low leadership 6 general in 2000 points, which to me seems pretty risky.

samw
28-10-2005, 01:15
He's always your army general, he just can't join units.

NakedFisherman
28-10-2005, 01:52
Also note that he prevents Skaven from electing to flee due to Immune to Psychology...

DeathMasterSnikch
28-10-2005, 16:09
Bah, who needs to flee when you can form a living wall of 2 point models :)

Then get something round te side and flank or rear charge :p

Threch
28-10-2005, 19:45
Loosing the ability to flee can be a real problem for an army lead by a Vermin Lord, this is very true. Generaly the way I have delt with this is waiting for the slave unit to break and taking the extra time provided to set up a proper response.

This would normaly be either a prepared flank charge incase the slave unit holds, and/or a road-block unit behind the slaves so you can control how far the attackers penetrate and something else to flank in your next turn. Which scenario you prepare for depends on the power level of what is about to charge you. However, as a Skaven hoard-style player, it is often not too tricky to have both options lined up due to the advantage in numbers Skaven have over most armies. The Vermin Lord does take a bit away from the hoard size, but it still isn't too tricky to ensure substatntial outnumbering against most armies. (This main enemies I face in my gaming circle are Chaos and High Elves, so normaly it is virtualy impossible NOT to outnumber by 2X or more.)

Against 'super units' like chosen chaos warriors and the like, you probably don't even want to follow through on the flanking. Sometimes a +1 flank bonus and canceling a couple ranks just isnt worth eating 20 more attacks. Just let the powerfull enemy unit win vs the slaves, use any extra time the slaves give you to clear a path behind them that so enemy unit won't engage anything else once it smashes through the slaves, and have some guns or casters waiting to deal with them from range where they can't hurt you. (Obviously in this scenario if the slaves hold and your ready for them to loose, you can usualy just shoot the warriors/slaves anyway and speed up the process.)

DeathMasterSnikch
28-10-2005, 21:53
Or you could have a unit of imune to psych slaves just get ground to pieces. They will hold the enemy for a turn or possibly 2 and thats what fleeing would have done. Plus you dont have to worry about them rallying if they stand their ground.

A vermin lord it's self is a powerful caster and melee unit so if he is near the slaves to cause them to be imune to psych you don't need to have 'guns or casters waiting to deal with them from range' most the time as a vermin lord is a mach for most enemy characters.

spikedog
29-10-2005, 03:37
I find that the larger the unit, the more it draws from the enemy. Even if it is a unit of 50 slaves.

I would suggest a reasonable tactic would be to stick a large unit of slaves in the centre of your battle line with smaller units either side as shields for the rest of your forces. Then when your opponent charges his knights in the large Slave unit will most likely take the charge. Then charge the other slave units in both sides and lock I'm in combat. With the Vermin lords Immune to Psych this will hold those knights up for at least a few turns maybe the rest of the battle, at the cost of what ? 180pts worth of slaves ?

Then either leave them alone to slaughter the Slaves and concentrate on the rest of his forces or Warpfire/Lightning Cannon them from the side.

It has been a while since I played with the Vermin Lord though but I think people are also missing a huge good point about him, the fact he is a level 4 wizard (With skitterleap!) I mean just skitter leap him behind an enemy wizard/cannon/archer unit and you have mayhem.

Vandur Last
29-10-2005, 04:20
I dont like when they do things to sidestep the weaknesses of a particular type of unit/whatever.
I mean if Verminlords dont count as large targets then why should anyone else have to? Why should only Skaven be allowed to field Greater Daemons without fear of being blasted by Cannon and the like? Honestly i beleive that when you have a unit with clear advantages and clear disadvantages you just made the whole gaming part of the hobby more interesting, but when you take away either advantages or disadvantages you made things more plain, less complex and less fun.

On a second note, why are the game developers so determined to make Cannons less useful all the time? IMHO it would have been better if they kept the rule that ward/armour saves cant save against certain devastating attacks, such as cannon. Were supposed to be avoiding Hero-hammer from happening again....arent we?

DeathMasterSnikch
29-10-2005, 05:07
You say less complex and less fun? The more complex it gets the less fun it is. Having to search through a giant rule book instead of playing the game IMO isn't fun. Keep things simple.

And just because one un-official demon doesn't count as a large target doesn't realy make this hero hammer.

Also a ward save represents a natural ability to dodge or avoid attacks, so no matter how devistating your cannon is if my character can pluck arrows out of the air and leap 6 feet in the air he's going to avoid it just as easily as he would a S3 missile.

Vandur Last
29-10-2005, 05:46
"You say less complex and less fun? The more complex it gets the less fun it is. Having to search through a giant rule book instead of playing the game IMO isn't fun. Keep things simple."

Indeed lets keep things simple. Well start by simply making all large daemons count as large targets, rather than making exceptions. :P

As for the ward save comments

1) Everbody has acess to armour/talismans that provide ward saves, theyre not all about dodging.

2) The fluff behind the save isnt the point. The point is that our ability to take down potentially devastating uber-characters through use of artillery/magic/whatever has been handicapped due to the easy availability of ward (aka no-matter-what) saves to those characters. Back in the day the only "save against anything" saves that existed were for Nagash and Slann. Now everybody can load up thier characters secure in the knowledge that thier points are being well protected against all possible threats.
Id like to see more ward saves for units, like the 5+ Bretonnian Knights get, and less ward saves for characters.

DeathMasterSnikch
29-10-2005, 13:17
Right.

Your the one who said it's become less complex and less fun not me so stop contradicting yourself. I didn't mention anything about agreeing with a VL not being a large target. If your so bothered how about you just don't have a vermin lord in the game. People need your consent to field it.

1) You do relise what ward means don't you?
~A defensive movement or attitude, especially in fencing; a guard

So in most cases it is a movement. Note the word most not all before you go in a fit.

2)The fluff behind the save is important. And the point is your cannons can already do enough damage why cant my few hundred point character have a chance of not getting obliterated by a cheesy artilery train?

In some cases such as a high level slann or Lord Kroak god forbid. If Kroak was shot by a cannon and wasn't allowed a ward save I might as well pack up there and then.

You complain about hero hammer what about cannon hammer?

Vandur Last
30-10-2005, 08:50
"Your the one who said it's become less complex and less fun not me so stop contradicting yourself."
Yeah OK you got me off topic and being cheeky there :p
I still think that removing strengths and weaknesses makes the game less complex and thus less fun though. Perhaps we should up the Dwarves movement to simplify the movement phase, make all units S & T3 to simplify the combat phase and even out all units at LD7, maybe even make all mages use a universal spell list.That would make it less complex, but undeniably less fun.

"So in most cases it is a movement. Note the word most not all before you go in a fit."

Most wards are movement? Sure if you dont count the Crown of Horns, Crown of Black Iron, Foul Pendant, Blessing of the Lady, Master Rune of Spite, Aura of Quetzl, Armour of Tarnus, Wyrdstone necklace, Armour of protection, Ironskin shield, Golden Ankhra, Gaze of the Gods and the Carstein Ring.

By the way incase you cant tell the above are non movement related Ward saves from the Beasts of Chaos, Darkelves, Skaven, Bretonnian, Dwarven, Lizardmen, Empire, Ogre Kingdoms, High Elves, Orcs & Goblins, Tomb Kings, Chaos Hordes and vampire Counts respectively. Tell me again how im flapping off my mouth in my sheer ignorance of the fact that most ward saves are movement related? Better yet, why dont you come up with that many movement related ward saves? lol


"2)The fluff behind the save is important. And the point is your cannons can already do enough damage why cant my few hundred point character have a chance of not getting obliterated by a cheesy artilery train?"

Because i dont like several hundred point combat munchkin uber-killing machine characters and i thought most people agreed with me. And who said anytihng about cheesy artillery trains? Ill tell you what, if you ever play against a cheesy artillery train i will fully support you if you claim that your characters should all get 2+ ward saves against them. What im talking about is trying to reduce the imperviousness of powerrful characters to all but the most concentrated attacks. Maybe if there werent so many ward saves flying around people wouldnt feel so compelled to take artillery trains?


"In some cases such as a high level slann or Lord Kroak god forbid. If Kroak was shot by a cannon and wasn't allowed a ward save I might as well pack up there and then."
Agreed, some characters who are big and slow such as Slaan need to have Ward saves.

Threch
30-10-2005, 09:39
Ill tell you what, if you ever play against a cheesy artillery train i will fully support you if you claim that your characters should all get 2+ ward saves against them.

Um, since when did the Vermin Lord get a 2+ save? Or are we wandering off topic here... I think a crappy 33% chance of avoiding a non-magic wound is not that big a deal. I do not feel that my vermin lord is 'well protected' by this. While it is obviously better than nothing, 33% is hardly great odds on a save.

DeathMasterSnikch
30-10-2005, 12:09
I can't be bothered quoting all that. Right.

1~When did I say I wanted it to be that simple? Just because your taking things I say to the extreme doesn't mean they are my view. All I said was adding more rules make things worse, nothing about current rules. Just because a non official character who technicly shouldnt even be played, doesnt count as a large target your getting in a mood because your artilery cant mow him down in a turn ot two. I simply don't think looking through a 288 page rulebook is my idea of fun. I prefer to actualy play the game.

And I think most people will agree with me.


2~ Since when is a model with a ward save a combat munching uber killer machine? Just because I want to protect my army leader to keep my troops from fleeing doesnt mean he is going to be an uber killer. I could buy a simple character with a simple ward save just to keep my troops on teh field.

Are you saying my nimble troops that can pluck arrows from teh air shouldnt be able to dodge your greatsword being swung at them?

spikedog
30-10-2005, 12:09
I still think that removing strengths and weaknesses makes the game less complex and thus less fun though. Perhaps we should up the Dwarves movement to simplify the movement phase, make all units S & T3 to simplify the combat phase and even out all units at LD7, maybe even make all mages use a universal spell list.That would make it less complex, but undeniably less fun.

Now I agree with points from both sides of this conversation but this point is one you seem to be making repeatedly and I still don't understand it maybe you can clarify.

Your saying that by evening out all abilities such as Movement and LD that it would make the game less complex and thus less fun, but yet the original argument here was the fact the vermin lord is not a large target.

So if I understand what your saying is that the vermin lord should be brought into line with all sorts of "Larger than man sized targets" and be made a large target in game, but wouldn't this simplify and unify the game and make it less fun ?

Threch
30-10-2005, 20:04
I'm probably just beating a dead horse here, but I'll throw this out anyawy...

The unique elements of each army are the entire reason this game is fun, IMHO. To make everyone the same is boring. So your cannon can't always auto-kill a Vermin lord. (Let’s just ignore the fact that it is STILL one of the best weapons in the game for killing him.) Boohoo, Skaven are broken.

I'm sure you argue just as strongly that Dragon Ogres should not be lightning-frenzied since half of Skaven ranged attacks don't hurt them, right? It's just as broken as the Vermin Lord not being large like other demons since other ogres don’t get this unique and over-complicated bonus, right? Following the same logic you use on the Vermin Lord, why don't you think your cannons are over-complicated and ruin the fun of the game since they are different and usually better than artillery of other armies like bolt throwers and stone throwers? Do you think it would be better for the game for all artillery to be turned into some sort of standard catapult so it is consistent and 'the same'? If not, is it because you like your cannons and the unique advantages they provide?

You seem to be holding onto one specific example of a difference between similar units in different armies as this super big deal when there are thousands of instances of minor variation between similar units in every corner of every army in the game. These differences between armies are the life blood of the game IMHO.

Lastly, I strongly disagree that more simple rules are always better. Risk is a good game, has much more simple rules than Warhammer, but I prefer Warhammer to Risk entirely because of the increase in complexity. If complexity did not matter and perfect balance was all important, we would all just flip coins. That is the most balanced and simple game on earth, heads you win, tails you loose... and I think we can all agree it sucks.

Greymarch
30-10-2005, 20:33
Aside from Teclis just how many 2+ Ward save characters are out there anyways? There's also the fact that usually failing a single Ward will result in instant death as well...

The way to get around characters with good ward saves is to throw a lot of small crap at them, not use your one good shot. Or beat them with Combat Resolution... you know... the core mechanic behind the entire game...

Sure the Verminlord isn't officially a Large Target, but iit may have just been an oversight, if I used one I'd be willing to say it was, I don't think that there's that much of a "OMG R0X0R!" ability you can use it's smallness for. Even if it is based of a sneaky lithe rat-thing...

Vandur Last
31-10-2005, 03:32
"Your saying that by evening out all abilities such as Movement and LD that it would make the game less complex and thus less fun, but yet the original argument here was the fact the vermin lord is not a large target.

So if I understand what your saying is that the vermin lord should be brought into line with all sorts of "Larger than man sized targets" and be made a large target in game, but wouldn't this simplify and unify the game and make it less fun ?"

Righto i see where you dont understand me now. What i mean is that by ignoring/avoiding the "Large target" rules you just simplified the game by making Large creatures the same as regular creatures. I beleive that having such things as Large Targets, different stats and various other strengths/weaknesses makes for varied and interesting units and armies thus improving the game.


As for alot of the other comments i think they stem from the fact that people here seem to be focusing on the Verminlord & Cannon specifically, whereas i am speaking more generally. My bad, i tend to look at the big picture all the time and just assume that everyone else is too.
To summarise i dont have a problem with and specific model having a ward save. I dont mind coming across things my Cannon cant kill. Im not accusing the Verminlord of being an uber-killer whatever-i-said-earlier.
What i DO object to is units that sidestep thier usual weaknesses (thus weakening the tactical side of the game) and any trend towards making characters harder hitting, harder to kill and more able to dominate the game.

Surely we can all agree to that? Can we be friends now then?

PS about my 2+ save comment, this had nothing to do with the particulars of this discussion, i was just having a go at you for assuming that "Cannon" automatically implied "cheesy gunline". I dont support cheesy gunlines any more than i do overloaded magic phases or uber-characters.

PPS i dont mean to come across as condecending or whatever, but reading some of the above posts makes me think i oughta watch my tongue a little more closely. For future refernce i dont mean any offense :)

Threch
31-10-2005, 07:59
How did you decide that this was a set 'usual weakness' that all powerfull demons have? Why do all powerfull demons have to be 'large targets?' I have no idea why the idea of a powerfull deamon that is oger sized and not giant sized is such a dealbreaker. The Lord of Change flys, the Great Unclean One has 10 wounds, Bloodthirster has armour AND flys, Keeper of Secrets has all sorts of wacky affects... and the Vermin Lord is 'Ogre Sized'. I don't see why any of the other differences are less substantial in either logic or game balance than the size.

Besides, don't forget that the Vermin Lord has other weaknesses to make up for this 'sidesteping of a usual weakness' if thats what it is. Not being able to join units leaves him VERY vunerable to many spells. Also, unlike all other demons, there is no way he can ever get a true ward save instead of his demonic aura.

Being non-large has plenty of drawbacks also. Any other greater deamon can draw a line of site anywhere they want for spell casting for the most part, the Vermin Lord can not. Also, while he is not officaly 'large', he is still too big to take shelter next to any unit other than maybe a large unit of Rat Ogers.

(P.S, I for one did not take offence at anyone's comments and meant none by my own. We can all come off as harsh easier than we think on forums like this. All I'm looking for is an honest debate of ideas, not a pissing match. :D)

DeathMasterSnikch
31-10-2005, 08:37
Pretty much I think this should end the conversation (or another post soon)

When I said simple = fun

In most cases it does. I want creatures to have their own stat lines and special rules but I don't want to be overloaded with special rules so if I simply want to move my unit, say across a wall, I have to scroll through a giant rulebook to check how to do it due to some crapy rule some gimp came upwith.

Threch made one of the best points in this entire conversation by pointing out the differences between the greater deamons. Another drawback of the vermin lord is IT ISN'T AN OFFICIAL MODEL. :p

Still I doubt this conversation needs to go much further. Developers overlook things, Other deamons get bonuses so teh VL could have been intentional. If not I bet designers had better stuff to do than make un official demons.