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Escaflowne_Z
01-07-2008, 10:05
Greetings, all. I'm new to BB, but not specialist games. A friend of mine got me into the game recently, and we even started running a small league (very small). There's only one problem: I can't beat his favorite team.

He built a team based on his personal preferences (likes dragons), and it turns out that his team consistently crunches mine. 4 (3 non-league) games, no touchdowns for me.

I'm going with a human team; he uses a Lizardmen team consisting of a big guy (Croxagor [sp]), 5-6 lizardmen linemen dudes, and 4-5 skinks.

I've tried bulking out on linemen with blitzer and ogre support, or going for a speedier team with two tossers and three catchers. The problem is that he can catch my speedy guys, and his linemen consistently crunch my linemen and blitzers into the turf.

With the new player packs coming out, what should I look for to give myself a competitive chance against his dragon men? I'm tired of proxying terminators as ogres, and pretending that the linemen from the starter set are actually blitzers. Only you can help Jarrod's Jimmy Kickers get their first victory against those toothy sun-bathers!

PS: any general league tips from people who've participated in them before? Are star players really worth it; what's better, an extra body, an apothecary, or 50,000 worth of coaches and cheerleaders? That kind of stuff.

EmperorNorton
01-07-2008, 10:59
PS: any general league tips from people who've participated in them before? Are star players really worth it; what's better, an extra body, an apothecary, or 50,000 worth of coaches and cheerleaders? That kind of stuff.
Star Players aren't really worth it IMO. If you can get one as an Inducement, fine. Otherwise don't bother.
For a starting team I'd take the extra body over an apothecary, although usually I'd rather have an extra reroll than a 12th player.
If you can spare 20,000 for a coach and a cheerleader that's great, more is unnecessary.

As for your Lizardmen troubles, try getting the Skinks off the pitch. With little strength and armour they break easily and your opponent won't have anybody to handle the ball.
Take all the blitzers you can as their block skill should go a long way in a starting team. I wouldn't field more than one catcher, though.

Tennboy
01-07-2008, 12:31
If you can just stick it out for several games, wou will start to gain the advantage over your buddy's team. He will start to realize that his Krox and blockers aren't skilling up as fast as his squishy skinks.

Remember that skinks are Stunty, which means they receive a +1 the injury roll. Take Tackle and Mighty Blow (in that order) on a Blitzer and go skink hunting. You'll be sending the little **** to the injury box on 8's.

And if you really wan to throw the Cods to him and you're playing under LRB4, take Dirty Player on a lineman. When your tackling blitzers get a skink down, have your lineman throw the boot to him, you'll be breaking on a minimum of a 5, KO on a 5, Badly Hurt on a 7, and Killed on a 9.

neXus6
01-07-2008, 22:13
Hmm, don't know if it works under the living rulebook, sorry I'm one of those people who stick to the Handbook rules and really don't like the direction the online rules have taken, but I would assume so.

As Norton and Tenn have said, deck his skinks, they have low armour and break rather easily when a little pressure is applied. If you see a chance to gang up on a Saurus take it you never know. :D

As for getting you scoring, get the ball to a blitzer and punch your way into his half with catchers/other blitzers in support. His hard hitters are a bit slower if I remember right so you'll only have to deal with strength 2 skinks as you break for the line. :)

My basic starting human team is 4 blitzers, 2 catchers, thrower, 5 linemen, a couple of rerolls and some FF. That just suits my style of play though, when on offence I try to overload and break one side while the linemen hold the middle. If i succeed I get the ball to a catcher and get him into the middle of a cage (surrounding the ball carrier with players) 1/3 to 1/2 way inside their half consisting of every player that can run through the gap. It doesn't always work but it gets your opponent on the back foot scrambling to cover every exit while also trying to break the cage if you do get it set up.

Escaflowne_Z
02-07-2008, 09:34
Thanks for the advice so far. Anyone have any thoughts on the ogre? In the one game I've taken him, he's tarpitted the Saurians pretty well. With S4 vs my S3 though, his saurus dudes have a huge advantage over my linemen and blitzers. Also, they're movement 6. So far it's been really hard to actually outrun them. I know passing is supposed to be the advantage for my team vs. the lizardmen, but it seems that anything more than a short pass is just too risky considering the possibility of turnovers (my dice-fu is very bad, grasshopper).

Defense is where I'm having the most trouble. He just makes a wall of big dudes up one side and cages up a skink like you were suggesting I do. He just tarpits my men and then blitzes wherever he gets an advantage. Blasts a hole through my men and waltzes into the endzone. Been that way for three straight games.

It is getting better, and every game gets a little closer, but it's gotten so bad that he's looking for a backup team just so the league doesn't get too unbalanced.

neXus6
02-07-2008, 13:21
S4 vs S3 is nasty. But if you get a blitzer into one with 2 asisits you can probably put one over.

Worst comes to worst I'd suggest ignoring the big guys totaly and just kicking 7 shades out of the skinks, fouling at every opportunity.
Whats the worst that can happen? You'll lose?

I assure you breaking some of his skink players legs will at the very least make you feel a lot better. :p

I know it's not exactly polite but you could also try the tactic of holding onto the ball as long as possible and just trying to wear down his team. If all goes well you'll only be a TD or 2 down and he'll be rather short on players seeing as his hard players can't be everwhere at once. :D

Tennboy
02-07-2008, 15:00
Remember that your blitzers and Ogre have access to ST skills. with 2 or 3 guys with the Guard skill, you will neutralize his strength advantage.

Escaflowne_Z
02-07-2008, 19:10
Forgive my ignorance, Tennboy, but how do you earn the skills? If I'm playing a one-off game, do I pay for it? Is that a skill I learn for players within the league system? If it matters, we are using the newest version of the LRB.

Cirrus the Blue
02-07-2008, 20:23
1-off games are tough, but a good place to start none the less to get the basics of the game down. I play Humans, too (and LOVE them!!) and understand full well your frustrations. I've found that generally they work better in a league setting with skill upgrades such as Block (and the occasional stat), but for one off games, especially vs a speedy team such as Lizardmen, take things at a more gradual pace during the game. It's far too easy to lose the ball and have the opposition blast it down the field as quickly if you're not careful.

The real trick with Humans is that you can't rely on any one player to win you the game, especially your Ogre. Your Ogre is a *great* addition, but don't expect him to be doing anything too special besides the occasional block (NEVER before you've taken care of the important stuff in case he hits his head in a soft spot and causes a turnover) and standing around to utilize tackle zones. His attention span is shorter than the end of his nose if you catch my drift, so your main objective until you get used to how your team plays is to just try and keep him focused by not rolling too often on the Bonehead roll. You'll find out nice and quick that the dreaded roll of '1' comes up far more often than probability would lead you to trust in. hehe

Catchers are GOLDEN!! I've maxed my own right out (4) due to their speed, but the problem is they don't start with Block whereas the Blitzers do, although Dodge generally does the trick well enough on 1-off games, especially vs teams that aren't riddled with Tackle (Dwarfs). They are most definately fast enough to put up a good foot race with the skinks, but you've got to protect them properly with the rest of your team - ie. don't sprint them far enough away where they can get pasted to the turf all on their lonesome without another guy to help out. Back yours' up suitably with a Blitzer or a couple Linemen and you should be just fine.

Throwers do their job well enough closer to the backfield and can even catch the Skinks when they get too close to your endzone, but it's always a good idea with Humans to hold a couple extra guys around midfield to get their arses back just in case. I'd even keep one of my Blitzers and the Ogre back there considering the strength you've got to handle when that cage starts to work it's way downfield. Don't worry too much keeping hold of the center of the field when you're up against a beefy team such as Lizardmen. The upside of this is that if you do happen to grab the ball when they're close to your endzone (you need proper strength to do this, hence the hard hitters of your side protecting the endzone), you should already have at least a couple catchers waiting for a pass downfield relatively unopposed with the majority of his own team trudging down your end. This can turn the tides VERY quickly if your opponent isn't paying attention.

Defensive strategy with Humans is perhaps going to be the most valuable skill you'll learn so long as you practice and don't get too greedy with offence to start. Protect your players and don't worry too much about the slow players on his side.

Whenever possible, if he's setting his guys up before you are, keep your Ogre a step or two back from the front line (two is better in case of a Blitz or Quicksnap) so he doesn't get clobbered with his Krox and can move relatively freely to where he's actually needed provided he doesn't get distracted in the process. Furthermore, your Linemen are there to get hit, so use them as meatshields as often as is appropriate.

Much of your strategy begins in the defensive, but don't keep your entire team in any one place at a time. This will lose you the game. ;) Spread out your team a little bit. This will force your opponent to reconsider much of his strategy. Try and throw your opponent off with your catchers by splitting them off on either side so he's got to decide which place to go for example. I like using all 4 of mine when on offence and bringing it down to 2 when on the defensive for obvious reasons. Keep in mind, however, that as weak as your Catchers might very well be, they're still more than a match any measley skink. ;)

As I said before, Humans can't rely on any one position by itself as opposed with a few of the other teams in the same way, so you've got to spread your strategies a bit more broadly across your team as opposed to any single scrum. It takes time to get the hang of your team, but don't give up. Managed properly, Humans are one of the very best teams you will ever coach! Just keep your catchers suitably protected and your Ogre focused and you should do rather well. Good luck!!

- Cirrus

P.S. Unfortunately you can't gain extra skills in the 1-off games unless you decided to add that in as a 'house rule'.

Tennboy
02-07-2008, 22:19
Sorry Escaflowne_Z, when you mentioned league, I thought you were keeping track of your players progression with the Star Player Points system (SPP). If you are playing one off games, I hate to say that your buddy has you in a tight spot with his Lizzies.

Lizzies are really strong out the gate because they are both strong (suaruses) And fast/ dodgey (skinks). They have little to no drawbacks in one off games. Where things start to go south for them is long-term skill progression.

My advice then is to get use to losing while you learn to apply the skills Cirrus mentioned above. That and be sure to foul a skink every time the ref isn't looking your direction:)

That or even up the score and switch to Khemri so you can hear your friend complain about your 4 mummies turning his entire team into paste.

Cirrus the Blue
03-07-2008, 04:57
Sorry Escaflowne_Z, when you mentioned league, I thought you were keeping track of your players progression with the Star Player Points system (SPP). If you are playing one off games, I hate to say that your buddy has you in a tight spot with his Lizzies.

Lizzies are really strong out the gate because they are both strong (suaruses) And fast/ dodgey (skinks). They have little to no drawbacks in one off games. Where things start to go south for them is long-term skill progression.

My advice then is to get use to losing while you learn to apply the skills Cirrus mentioned above. That and be sure to foul a skink every time the ref isn't looking your direction:)

That or even up the score and switch to Khemri so you can hear your friend complain about your 4 mummies turning his entire team into paste.

That's actually not a bad idea! I agree with Tennboy on that. I'd totally reccomend you proxy your figs for other teams to get a good 'feel' for how everything plays out.

Considering these are 1-off games, you might want to even give a try to a Pro Elf roster and use your Humans as proxies for a game or two. The Pro Elves play a *LOT* like the Humans (have the same positions at different quantities minus the Ogre), but where the Humans have their shortcomings, the Pro Elves have in spades!

Case in point: 'Strength 3, Agility 4, Catch, Nerves of Steel Catchers' is sort of messed up out of the box no matter how much you wanna make 'em cost. :angel: No skink in his right mind would dare try and blitz one of those by himself. You'd rock the living 'ess out of your buddy for the 1-off games with those, I guarantee. Then again, it's not nearly as good a learning aid as the Humans are, but all that aside would give you a substantial ego boost all the same. hehe The Pro Elves are easily proxied from the Humans though, so I'd reccomend giving that a try. Agility 4 is absolutely gigantic however you want to put it, not to mention the STARTING rare skills (Nerves of Steel is a roll on Doubles for a Human Catcher).

As for the Undead, only one I'd actually reccomend for 1-off games would be Necromantic strictly for the fact that the others only have Agility 2 across the board for their players which is very difficult to use if you're just starting out. :P Khemri's still great, but AG 2 catches up with you pretty quick if you're not experienced on how to handle it properly. Do give them a shot though all the same in case you actually do like the playstyle! Just keep in mind rolling 4s on such a regular basis is much more difficult than it sounds. ;)

The real benefit to using an Undead team though really shines through in League play where your guys just don't die. In 1-off games, it hardly matters whichever team you're using if a guy Dies or is Badly Hurt, 'cause he's out for the match anyhow, huh? hehe (Truthfully speaking, however, they do heal easily so long as you roll a 2+ and can jump back into the game, all things considered.)

- Cirrus

Escaflowne_Z
05-07-2008, 17:59
@Cirrus: Gah, no pointy-ears! *eyetwitch* :P My buddy is also considering doing an Undead team since he has some Tomb King models laying about. That sounds like a fun change of pace.

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

Cirrus the Blue
06-07-2008, 17:04
@Cirrus: Gah, no pointy-ears! *eyetwitch* :P My buddy is also considering doing an Undead team since he has some Tomb King models laying about. That sounds like a fun change of pace.

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

One thing to consider regarding mummies in the updated rules is that they recently (very recently) took off Mighty Blow and replaced it with Break Tackle, so they're only half as good. lol Break Tackle's still a very useful skill on the big guys who can't dodge worth a darn and they're still Strength 5 and cost 10K less, but it's a significant change to the position all the same. Just a heads up. ^^ For Undead players, this is a downer. For everyone else, it's the greatest thing since Tripple Kapow! :D Well... You get how I mean. haha :P

- Cirrus

LordSnotball
09-07-2008, 10:26
slaughter the skinks, ignore the sauruses...

once u have taken out 2-3 skinks, you have numerical superiority, at which point u can take a saurus on head to head...

a problem with many starting players, is that they don't position a player to receive the ball and score. Your opponent's ball carrier might fail a dodge, fail a pass, fail a gfi, and if u get the ball, his faster players are just gonna recover it and score... you need to have a pleayer near the endzone to score...

played a lot of educational matches to help new players, and they normally have scoring chances, but dont see them...

spevna
18-08-2008, 09:43
ditto what the others have said. smash the skinks as these are the guys that will cause you the most trouble and are usually the most ignored.

Marlow
18-08-2008, 14:08
Forgive my ignorance, Tennboy, but how do you earn the skills? If I'm playing a one-off game, do I pay for it? Is that a skill I learn for players within the league system? If it matters, we are using the newest version of the LRB.

If you are not tracking Star Player Points (SPP) in your League then I suggest you perhaps do the same as some Tournaments and say each Coach can add three Normal and one Double skill to players on his team.

You could go with any of these
Blitzer - Guard, Mighty Blow or Tackle (for squishing skinks)
Catcher - Block, or Nerves of Steel on the Double.
Thrower - Accurate (to throw further)
Ogre - Guard, or Block on the Double.

This would allow you to get some advantage over the Saurus, who do not start with Block as well as having some skills for stoping Skinks.

AlmightyNocturnus
28-08-2008, 06:58
E-Z,
Yeah, you need to start an actual league with skills and the like. After a dozen or so games, your team will be built up enough to afford star players and other goodies.

But to answer your question, the key to beating Lizardmen with any S3 team in league play or one-off games is kill the skinks. Lizardmen are mighty (S4 Saurus) and all of them are fast (even Saurus are MA 6!!!), but only the Skinks can pick up, catch or throw the ball (check the Saurus AG score, then giggle). If you`re only playing one-off games, your opponent can`t have very many of those little bastiches. Win the coin flip and kick off to him. Then double team, block, blitz, foul and crush those little Skinks! If the gmae turns into a long grind-out affair, even KO results on the Skinks will really work to you advantage. Once they`re gone, you can switch into "offence mode" and probably win 1-0, or 2-1 if the other player managed to score early. Good luck!

Almighty Nocturnus

Leilond
28-08-2008, 10:39
Crunche his shinks. They've got the stunty skill and AV 7... this means that you can easly ko and casuality them. Use your blitzers against them, more and more. Pheraps the first half you'll take one or two tuch downs, but the second half he will going to play nearly without shinks, that's mean nearly without any ball carrier.
Remember this too. Do not lose your time trying to put ko his Saurus and Kroxi. Their very good armor protect them very well. Block and blitz them only when you really need a hole to run for a shink. If you manage to block a shink with a blitzer using two dices, you're goint to put him down easly.
One thing is VERY important. It is better to block a shink with a bitzer and two dices (you put him down 56% of the time, due to the block skil, and you're knocked down yourself 3%) than blocking with the Ogre with 3 dices (you put him down 42% of the time and you're knocked down 4%)!!! Remember! It's better to use the block skill than one more dice!!! The ogre, if you really want to use him, have to be used against saurus (that do not have the dodge ability and thus you can put them down with the ogre easly)!
Do not block shinks with the lines, unless you have 2 support so that you can roll three block dices. If you block a shink with two dice and without the block skill, you've only 31% to put him down alone and 11% to fall down yourself! Every time you block with two dices without the block skill there's 11% to fall down yourself, suffering a turnover... Avoid it as often as you can
Thus
1. Blitzer on the shinks, as often as you can. A blitzer with TWO lines supporting can block a saurus too
2. Ogre on the saurus, not to be surrounded. Also a Kroxigor can be blocked, with at least one line supportin it
3. Lines SUPPORT the Ogre to prevent surrounding
4. 3 lines can collaborate to try a shink block, if there isn't a blitzer that can do it. They do it better!
5. Blocking using 2 dice and the block skill is better than blocking with 3 dices without the skill!

He's quicker than you, but his runners are VERY fragile due to the stunty skill and the poor armor... crunch them as fast as you can

Escaflowne_Z
28-08-2008, 10:42
Thanks a lot, everyone. Now to simply find more time for playing. *shakes fist at work and other games*