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Gharof von Carstein
02-07-2008, 00:10
basically vampires greatest weakness is shown when fighting against gunlines, they bury so much units before we can even bring our undead minions to combat its not even funny. sure with some vanhelsing you can get into base contact with them but with dwarves i dont see that happening very soon. add the fact they'll just react by standing and shooting. I dont like to just rely on fear tactics to just get me the win, any thoughts on this hatefull little manouvre a lot of armys employ? (at least where im from).

Malorian
02-07-2008, 01:28
Gunlines??? Vamps have the advantage against gunlines.

Any loses you take can be raised as you move forward.

If you hace ghouls, not only are you more resilient against shooting, but you get there sooner with ghoulkin.

If you don't like stand and shoot then move right infront of them and then vanhel into combat so that you are too close to stand and shoot.

Marshal Torrick
02-07-2008, 01:33
I haven't lost to a dwarven gunline yet, so I may be able to help you out a bit. Here's a few tips:

Take the Drakenhoff banner and put it in something numerous/fast and dangerous. Grave guard and Black knights work well.

Have more than one unit with the "shoot me" sign on it. I field Drakenhoff grave guard, a varghulf and a unit of Blood Knights with the Banner of Blood keep. These three tie up most of the enemies shooting.

Invocation is your friend. Recoup your shooting losses quickly.

Varghulfs are awesome at taking out artillery crews.

Raise a unit of zombies in front of thunderers. Bolster it up and then send it at 'em. If the thunderer unit leaves a little space on their ubiquitous hill, raise them there and block LOS. If not, then just threaten to charge next turn. Your zombies will lose, but not by a whole ton, and will tie them up for several turns if you pump enough magic into it. This works even better on stubborn cannon crews.


It's funny, I would actually have a harder time dealing with two gyrocopters than two organ guns. Gyros never misfire, are almost impossible to *******' catch and have that wonderful T2 or 3 block killing steam gun.

phoenixnl
02-07-2008, 03:28
I generally struggle with gunline armies, since I usually tool my vampires up for battle, rather than magic (and thus summoning). In the future I will do that though.

I have, once had some success with an interesting tactic though. I equipped a vamp with a hellsteed, and some ward save, not sure what I used any more, and flew myself to the opponents side, and started taking out the dwarf gunline, while on the other side I had approaching Dire wolves+Knights which were able to take care of the rest.

But there was some flaw in my opponents positioning, having his warmachines behind his units, he actually had no way to turn around and hurt my, admittedly rather lonely and weak cavalry. + flying vamp.

Needless to say, next game we played he had learned his lesson and shot me to a heap of rotting pulp.

Bottom line still is, Flyers help, get some fell bats. And although they will attract a lot of artillery attention, even if your opponent spends a turn shooting at your fell bats; that will give you another turn to properly approach with cavalry.

Frankly
02-07-2008, 11:31
basically vampires greatest weakness is shown when fighting against gunlines, they bury so much units before we can even bring our undead minions to combat its not even funny. sure with some vanhelsing you can get into base contact with them but with dwarves i dont see that happening very soon. add the fact they'll just react by standing and shooting. I dont like to just rely on fear tactics to just get me the win, any thoughts on this hatefull little manouvre a lot of armys employ? (at least where im from).


???

Gunlines are easy meat the VC.

You have, dire wolves and fel bats. I mean both dire wolves and fell bats can get to gunlines with 2nd turn charges.

Then you have flyer character options

Then you have ward ++ saves.

Then you have a magic phase that can SUMMON MORE MODELS to add the damaged units and/or create new units that block LOS or create more targets.

Magic also provides for with movement buffs and nuking spells.

There are so many options to take against gunlines .. VC is like a anti-gunline armybook.

Gharof von Carstein
02-07-2008, 12:20
I kinda made the first post wrong. Iv been struggling a lot against gunlines and perhaps should have voiced it like my own experience instead of generally. sorry bout that :)

anyway. Iv been getting shot to pulp against dwarven gunlines but with the tips above I can see where I went wrong.

Stinkfoot
02-07-2008, 17:14
Well, ghouls are clearly the better troop versus gunlines, so if you can switch your skellie blocks (which for me at least are the default choice) for equal sized ghoul blocks and have plenty of vampires with Summon Ghouls wondering around. Ghoulkin will also help a lot and limiting enemy shooting. If you don't have the models play a game with skellies standing in as ghouls, I think you'll be impressed.

I'd probably get the wristbands of black gold on your general if your opponent is cannon sniping (a somewhat unrealistic and distasteful tactic that is legal nonetheless).

Overall, I'd just say take plenty of magic. IoN should be able to negate all but the heaviest of shooting casualties with relative easy. At 2000 points I can usually get it off 5-6 times a turn if it's all I cast. That's about 20-25 models coming back. There aren't many lists that can shoot down that many ghouls in one turn.

Frankly
03-07-2008, 00:37
I kinda made the first post wrong. Iv been struggling a lot against gunlines and perhaps should have voiced it like my own experience instead of generally. sorry bout that :)

anyway. Iv been getting shot to pulp against dwarven gunlines but with the tips above I can see where I went wrong.

What do you have in your list?

Azmazi
03-07-2008, 02:02
What Frankly said above, also a lot of the other opinions in here are pretty good. I will also second the use of ghouls overall for their ability to amazingly take less hits thanks to T4, and with ghoulkin you can run them up and try to get them moving to cover your forces by turn 1 with raising+ marching after the ghoulkin move.

If you can post your list we can give you a better overall adjustment for gunlines in general.

txamil
03-07-2008, 05:34
gunlines are tough for VCs. The focus fire outstips how fast you can get them back up, leaving you with no blocks. And sometimes this leaves your vamp all alone.

hippodude21
03-07-2008, 11:08
my gunlines have destroyed the vc armys i play against.
the way to get around them is ethereal units and the like.
be warned effective gunlines will have units in front with charecters and the such also closed flanks.
if anyone wants to know more about good gunlines just ask cos i play empire and gunline all the time
(sorry if i sound like a know it all or ig headed)

Frankly
03-07-2008, 12:05
Why give us a little look at your empire gunline then.;)

Because, honestly, I've started carving off support units from my list that would usually be taken against gunlines since VC work really well against static lists anyway.

I was running this in my list as an agressive mobile support platform;

6 x dire wolves
6 x dire wolves
6 x dire wolves
6 x dire wolves
6 x dire wolves

5 x B.knights
5 x B.knights
5 x B.knights
5 x B.knights

But, will most likely drop down to 4 units of wolves and 3 units of knights. I've also got 12 power dice and a magic phase built of zombie summoning, so blocking LOS is a big part of game play for me against heavy gunlines.


I'm not hassling you or anything. I'd honestly would like to know whats in your list.

Oberon
03-07-2008, 12:17
I play VC, and the local empire players gunline has not been a problem, except for the uncanny ability to snipe my general/some other character out of the regiment with cannons. With cannon, you can. Sometimes, it makes THIS (http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/Oberon_/motivator4188783.jpg) impression.

Frankly
03-07-2008, 12:23
lollll that was funny Oberon.

hippodude21
04-07-2008, 11:36
my 2k list generally consists of
20-30 handgunners
1-2 hellblasters (as mood suits me)
and maby a cannon/mortar
plus about 10 outriders

thats the guns

about 2 units of 20 halberdiers
20 greatsword
5-10 knights (usualy inner circle)
15-20 flagelants

heroes/lords

arch lector/ general
lvl 2 wizard mabey 2 of them
2 warrior preists possibly one replaced with a bsb

so let me know what you think
hope u all like

EvC
04-07-2008, 13:09
Gunlines are tough for Vamps when the Vamps haven't gone magic heavy or taken the two big banners. Getting across the table is hard because it puts you in range of the nasty stuff, so you really have to bombard your opponent with targets. I was facing an army with 5 cannons yesterday, to take one out I had to expose both my Coach and Vampire on Hellsteed to one of them. The Coach was destroyed unfortunately, but it meant the Vampire was able to charge it, and then go on to do a bit more damage. Still massacred me ;)

Conotor
04-07-2008, 13:15
Errr... Other then Orcs and Goblins, id say vamps are the BESt army against gunlines. They have inexpencive troops, AND they can raise extras.

Nedar
04-07-2008, 13:15
I've yet to face a dedicated gunline (we have very few gunliners at my game shop, which is good cuz I think they are the dumbest and most boring kind of army to play with/against).

I'm not worried if I do though. Vargulf + Wraiths + Bats will get me across the board fast. GG with Regen Banner should hold the unit up long enough to get into combat, and 3 other skeleton blocks to draw fire, or get across to fight. Wolves probably die on turn 1 like always (people always shoot my damn wolves, I haven't re-directed a charge with them since the new book came out).

The more magic though, the easier it'll be to shamble across :D

Frankly
04-07-2008, 20:28
my 2k list generally consists of
20-30 handgunners
1-2 hellblasters (as mood suits me)
and maby a cannon/mortar
plus about 10 outriders

thats the guns

about 2 units of 20 halberdiers
20 greatsword
5-10 knights (usualy inner circle)
15-20 flagelants

heroes/lords

arch lector/ general
lvl 2 wizard mabey 2 of them
2 warrior preists possibly one replaced with a bsb

so let me know what you think
hope u all like


I really like your list Hippo. :)

I was waiting for a 60 H.gunnner units w.H.Rifles on around 6 WM's and a million power dice.

But no, you've got a nice and rounded list that should do well against most lists, because your shooting is backing up a solid group rank and file units + you've got nice support in your cavalry units.

Personally I wouldn't call that list a gunline, its just a really well balanced empire army.

again nice list.

txamil
06-07-2008, 01:54
Errr... Other then Orcs and Goblins, id say vamps are the BESt army against gunlines. They have inexpencive troops, AND they can raise extras.

Gunlines force vamps to use dice toward raising and dancing at the same time. Melee armies don't.

Stinkfoot
06-07-2008, 02:52
Gunlines force vamps to use dice toward raising and dancing at the same time. Melee armies don't.

The point was that gunlines are at their worst vs. vampires, not that vampires are at their best vs. gunlines.

Windings of a snake
06-07-2008, 08:03
Against gunlines the ghoulkin skill is of the otmost value. It grants one additional 8" move towards the enemy.

ScreamingDoombull
08-07-2008, 21:01
I've been on a bit of a WH hiatus recently, but my last game ended disasterously against an empire force.

Anyone have tips to fight against an empire opponent who brings 3 cannons, a mortar, 3+ blocks of swordsmen, 20+ handgunners and the popemobile? I know etherial would help but my wraiths spent most of the game on a flank due to hiding from his three battle wizards. (He does a very good job at keeping up with me magically)

Frankly
08-07-2008, 23:00
Thats alot of fire power.

What kind of list did you play against him?

I'd run something pretty standard like this:

Lord, skull staff
vampire lvl2, flaming skull staff
vampire lvl2, staff of damnation
vampire lvl2, book of arkhan

Maybe master of the black arts on your lord to get vals, because you want to get aggressive against that sort of list + nuking spells. Lord of the dead on two of the vampire if your using skellies, although ghouls and ghoulkin would be a better idea. get some more P.Dice in there and grind out zombies units infront of his units to block LOS and take on swordmen units, zombies are perfect for targeting a single attack units that work off static CR.

If you can go for lots of fast options like wolves, bats and black knights and threaten his list with alot of options in turn 2 he's in trouble. Your opponants list is full of juicy weak VP's, 5 MWs and 20 H.gunners for example. Other wise the core units, skellies and ghouls, cheap solid rank and file units ARE THE BEST BUY against 99% of gunlines, pure numbers to deny him grinding down your units and weakening your threat.

Deploy wide to widen out his fire arcs to make it harder to concentrate fire(also pulls units out of his general's L.d. range), while keeping your units in distance of vampires so that your whole army can march, especially your fast support, so they can threaten his line with turn 2 charges.

Turn 1

Look at blocking as much sight as possible with your fast support and summon zombies. use low casting spells first in your magic phase, try to push through 2d6 and 1d6 casts to repair your units with nefek and summom zombies, if you've drawn out enough dispel dice then use damage or high casting spells, if not keep casting summoning and repair spells. DESTROY ANYTHING THAT MIGHT STOP YOU MARCHING.

Turn 2

Try to get charges off on turn 2 with your zombies and/or fast support targeting his WMs and gunners. Keep pushing your units up and keep casting low level spells like in turn 1.


This is a basic statergy for taking on static gunlines in the opening turns. Spread out, threaten first, and move agressively, give him very little in the magic phase worth dispelling. Your job is a get across the table top as quickly as possible, fast support + zombies do this really, really well.

ScreamingDoombull
10-07-2008, 20:42
Thanks, this should help. We're starting off a campaign soon I'd like to start out on the right foot.

Frankly
10-07-2008, 23:26
No problems, tell us how things go.