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Ragewind
02-07-2008, 03:58
Ramming is AMAZING :skull:

I had a game today with a Chaos Nurgal Marine force, I got turn 1 and sent a Wave serpent flying across the board with Star Engines and slamming into a Defiler blowing off its Battle Cannon.

On my next turn I zipped across the field and hit a predator Anhiliator (the one with the Las Cannons) and detonated it, zipped back to the Defiler and blowing it up. In all three turns I ended up getting my Serpent Shaken Twice, 115 points worth of transports took out 300+, leaving the rest of my army to work on dropping those annoying Plague Marines.

Simply the Best

Caiphas Cain
02-07-2008, 04:00
The most terrifiing thing ever is now a full force of peranas (i butchered it i know) 5 lil things goin al over the place killing rhinos left and right.

Lt.Bradford
02-07-2008, 04:03
Oh, great. So I have to worry even more about skimmers killing my pillbox tanks.

Danny Internet
02-07-2008, 04:04
I don't have the Eldar codex in front of me, but I believe Star Engines kick in during the Shooting phase, which means they are of no use for ramming (because this is done in the Movement phase).

Caiphas Cain
02-07-2008, 04:04
Oh yes, yes you do. I imagine some iregular choices will be used because of the awsome-ness of ramming.

Aww i was getting my hopes up>.<

ehlijen
02-07-2008, 04:06
Sorry, Cain, but Phiranas aren't tanks and therefore can't ram.

Ragewind, that sounds quite lucky. Good on yer. I would have expected the WS to take some damage from all that as well.

edit: remember one of the best ways to defend against ramming: move closer and point your front armour at it. The closer you are the lower the strenght of the hit and the higher your armour facing it the higher the strenght of the hit back (against which cover won't help).

Caiphas Cain
02-07-2008, 04:09
ya they can, they just dont get a +1 like tanks do. i think..

Tebrey
02-07-2008, 04:09
Piranha cannot tank shock. They are not tanks.

Star Engines are during the shooting phase. Not movement phase.

You do realize that you don't get any kind of save from tank, no matter how fast you moved. I cannot see how your serpent could have survived. The field effect of the serpent doen't apply either.

Tebrey
02-07-2008, 04:10
ya they can, they just dont get a +1 like tanks do. i think..

No. Only tanks can TANK SHOCK go read the 5th edition book.

Caiphas Cain
02-07-2008, 04:11
Aww lame why'd GW have to ruin every ones fun.. Well maybe Tau and Eldar any way.

Ixe
02-07-2008, 04:11
Ok, you can slap my face and call me Mary if armor 10 vehicles are just as effective for ramming as armor 12...

EDIT: Ok, while I was typing that, a bunch of people smacked that idea down. Hooray, the world is still sane :D

Ragewind
02-07-2008, 04:12
I don't have the Eldar codex in front of me, but I believe Star Engines kick in during the Shooting phase, which means they are of no use for ramming (because this is done in the Movement phase).

(I am paraphrasing)

I don't have the copy of the rules in front of me, but from what Ramming says you move at full speed in a direction of your choice initiating a ramming attack for any vehicle you hit along the way, stopping at a target you don't manage to kill (assuming you are still alive), on the chart to calculate damage it gives a +1 damage bonus for every 3 inches moved in a turn, which would include the movement from the Star Engines as the previous movement doesn't disappear.

I like the idea of Guided "missile" Systems in the form of cheap transports, kinda like a pseudo Eldar Death Company.

xinsanityx
02-07-2008, 04:12
That is really good but that means that your wave serpent will also probably be taking an automatic penetrating hit as well. After all those penetrating hits if you still manage to kill that many tanks, wow are you lucky.

Caiphas Cain
02-07-2008, 04:13
Mary!! sorry. I thougth it would be a funny idea though.. imagin it

"sir if seen the enemy, what shall we do"

"crash and burn boys, crash and burn"

Danny Internet
02-07-2008, 04:14
(I am paraphrasing)

I don't have the copy of the rules in front of me, but from what Ramming says you move at full speed in a direction of your choice initiating a ramming attack for any vehicle you hit along the way, stopping at a target you don't manage to kill (assuming you are still alive), on the chart to calculate damage it gives a +1 damage bonus for every 3 inches moved in a turn, which would include the movement from the Star Engines as the previous movement doesn't disappear.


That's extremely specific for something which you are paraphrasing without an actual book in front of you. Unless they changed how Tank Shocking works (and Ramming is a type of Tank Shock, as per the book), then it is done in the Movement phase and therefore occurs before the Star Engines are used.

Ragewind
02-07-2008, 04:14
Ok, you can slap my face and call me Mary if armor 10 vehicles are just as effective for ramming as armor 12...

EDIT: Ok, while I was typing that, a bunch of people smacked that idea down. Hooray, the world is still sane :D

Its my understanding Dark Eldar ships can do this if you give them that upgrade that allows them to Tank Shock, also I think Orks have something Similer, It was a agreed upon at my local store that it would work that way, although they only talked about it for around a hour.

ehlijen
02-07-2008, 04:15
Ramming is resolved in the movement phase though. By the time the shooting phase comes around, all ramming is done and over with, meaning you don't get to use the star engines to try again.

edit: yes, raiders can do it if upgraded, but they won't be any good at it. They will almost always do less damage to the target than they recieve in return (and they aren't cheap to begin with) and far less than they could achieve with shooting.

Ragewind
02-07-2008, 04:16
That's extremely specific for something which you are paraphrasing without an actual book in front of you. Unless they changed how Tank Shocking works (and Ramming is a type of Tank Shock, as per the book), then it is done in the Movement phase and therefore occurs before the Star Engines are used.

Hey I have a good memory what can I say?

I was under the assumption you can tank shock whenever you can move over a enemy, and as far as I know Eldar have the only tank capable of moving in the shooting phase. Although I can be wrong as I haven't read every other codex, so I am not sure what they can and cannot do.

xinsanityx
02-07-2008, 04:17
also, star engines are used "in lieu of shooting" Ramming prevents you from shooting that turn, so i'd say you probably wouldn't be able to use star engines to ram in the shooting phase.

Tebrey
02-07-2008, 04:18
Ramming specifically states that it must accour before the shooting phase and that the vehicle in effect gives up their shootinh phase to ram.

Doesn't seem very fluffy for Eldar either. Shrug.

xinsanityx
02-07-2008, 04:25
Ramming specifically states that it must accour before the shooting phase and that the vehicle in effect gives up their shootinh phase to ram.

Doesn't seem very fluffy for Eldar either. Shrug.

actually no, ramming does not specifically say it occurs before shooting. It says that you may not shoot in your shooting phase if you ram. It also says that ramming is a special type of tank shock and is executed in the same way. If you go to the tank shock rules it says when moving a tank a player can declare that it is tank shocking. So if you could move in the shooting phase, and that movement was not in lieu of shooting then you could certainly tank shock in the shooting phase, or even the assault phase if a vehicle could move in the assault phase.

Ragewind
02-07-2008, 04:26
Ramming specifically states that it must accour before the shooting phase and that the vehicle in effect gives up their shootinh phase to ram.

Doesn't seem very fluffy for Eldar either. Shrug.

It seemed pretty clear I could finish my movement in the shooting phase and slam into something, kinda like kicking in the Nitros for that extra punch, however no one disagreed with me so I will check the rules once more tomorrow and see what the local rules lawyers can help me discern.


actually no, ramming does not specifically say it occurs before shooting. It says that you may not shoot in your shooting phase if you ram. It also says that ramming is a special type of tank shock and is executed in the same way. If you go to the tank shock rules it says when moving a tank a player can declare that it is tank shocking. So if you could move in the shooting phase, and that movement was not in lieu of shooting then you could certainly tank shock in the shooting phase, or even the assault phase if a vehicle could move in the assault phase.

I love you :evilgrin:

Drek
02-07-2008, 04:30
"This means that it may not shoot in that turn’s Shooting phase, making it an attractive choice for vehicles that have no armament left, or are shaken...

...Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of. Units other than vehicles in the way of a ramming tank are tank shocked as normal..."

There is a large section explaining the rest. Suffice to say, for a Ram against a Defiler, your Wave Serpent will take the same STR hit less 1 as the Defiler isn't a tank. Against a Predator, you will take a hit at 1 STR greater if hitting the front or 1 less if it was the side.

The rule for tank shock does say it can be used when moving the tank but it doesn't specify a phase so that will have to be FAQ'd I am sure.

xinsanityx
02-07-2008, 04:33
My only question is, if star engines are in lieu of shooting, does that mean they count as shooting? If they count as shooting then you couldn't do it as you can't shoot and ram.

edit- after reading the eldar FAQ on star engines i would have to say that using your star engines does not count as shooting, so i'd say ramming in the shooting phase with them is a go.

Geddonight
02-07-2008, 04:49
The other important thing that makes Wave Serpents not as sexy is their prow field only reduce the strength of RANGED hits against them... so... not so smart to ram at top velocity

Ragewind
02-07-2008, 04:51
The other important thing that makes Wave Serpents not as sexy is their prow field only reduce the strength of RANGED hits against them... so... not so smart to ram at top velocity

Yea well I would rather drop something like say a Land Raider and blow my 115 transport up rather than send my squad of Fire Dragons at them when they can toast the nearby Termies. Its all about options and this is just one more.

Danny Internet
02-07-2008, 05:25
I got my hands on scans of the 5th edition book and verified that neither the rules for Tank Shock nor Ramming specify that they must be performed in the Movement phase, so I rescind my previous argument to that effect. Looks like you can ram using Star Engines, RAW.

Killmaimburn
02-07-2008, 05:54
Top page 69,
"Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way"
Bottom right p68 on tank shock movement
"If the tank moved slowly enough during the tank shock attack it may fire as normal in the shooting phase"
(note for ramming there is a no shooting proviso)
Tank shock attack is in the movement phase, ramming move is excuted the same way..it happens before shooting. (RAW;))

Ragewind
02-07-2008, 05:54
I got my hands on scans of the 5th edition book and verified that neither the rules for Tank Shock nor Ramming specify that they must be performed in the Movement phase, so I rescind my previous argument to that effect. Looks like you can ram using Star Engines, RAW.

I must say there is something about shooting 36 inches across the table turn one with three wave serpents and destroying all my enemies armor that makes me happy I play Eldar. Heck if you get lucky and your tanks survive, not hard if your opponent rolls 1's and 2's, then you got something that can tank shock units or provide of semi hard firepower behind enemy lines.

Starchild
02-07-2008, 06:19
This is kind of funny, though I don't agree with it.

In the old Epic Space Marine game, Wave Serpents could shoot their warp waves to pin down enemy units. It looks like you've found a way to do that. ;)

It may or may not be permissible under the rules, but personally, I'd refrain in the interests of sportsmanship.

Weed_Bix
02-07-2008, 06:41
Damn,
the necrons miss out on all the fun..stupid necron list only allowing one vehicle which is a floating pyramid.:(

xinsanityx
02-07-2008, 06:49
Top page 69,
"Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way"
Bottom right p68 on tank shock movement
"If the tank moved slowly enough during the tank shock attack it may fire as normal in the shooting phase"
(note for ramming there is a no shooting proviso)
Tank shock attack is in the movement phase, ramming move is excuted the same way..it happens before shooting. (RAW;))

I don't quite understand your logic here. Just because you may shoot after tank shocking, but not after ramming how does that imply that they are both done in the movement phase?

If the tank moved 0 inches in the movement phase and then moved 6 inches to tank shock in the shooting phase hasn't it still moved slow enough to shoot in the shooting phase? In fact, according to the rules on vehicle movement, since that tank didn't move in the movement phase its considered to be stationary and can fire all of its weapons. The only reason a waveserpent can't do this is because the star engine rule specifically says it can not. The rulebook however specifically allows for it to occur.

If the star engine rule did not have the phrase "in lieu of shooting" then the rulebook would let a waveserpent use its star engines and shoot in the same shooting phase. So just because it says that a tank may shoot in the shooting phase if it moved slow enough, that doesn't mean a tank can't tank shock and shoot in the same shooting phase.

big squig
02-07-2008, 07:02
There is no way on Earth you people can be arguing that tank shocking can be done whenever you like outside the move phase. Seriously people, seriously.

xinsanityx
02-07-2008, 07:11
There is no way on Earth you people can be arguing that tank shocking can be done whenever you like outside the move phase. Seriously people, seriously.

If your tank can move outside of the movement phase why can't it? The rules say when you move your tank you may declare a tank shock. If i use star engines to move my wave serpent, i'm moving it, and can declare a tank shock.

DarkstarSabre
02-07-2008, 07:13
I got turn 1 and sent a Wave serpent flying across the board with Star Engines and slamming into a Defiler blowing off its Battle Cannon.



Hey I have a good memory what can I say?

You have good memory about specific rules that benefit you and complete disregard for others as has been pointed out already.

I think that says it all really.

Klam
02-07-2008, 07:15
Oh, great. So I have to worry even more about skimmers killing my pillbox tanks.

And those elves began again...

Elios Harg
02-07-2008, 08:35
Ramming is AMAZING :skull:

I had a game today with a Chaos Nurgal Marine force, I got turn 1 and sent a Wave serpent flying across the board with Star Engines and slamming into a Defiler blowing off its Battle Cannon.

On my next turn I zipped across the field and hit a predator Anhiliator (the one with the Las Cannons) and detonated it, zipped back to the Defiler and blowing it up. In all three turns I ended up getting my Serpent Shaken Twice, 115 points worth of transports took out 300+, leaving the rest of my army to work on dropping those annoying Plague Marines.

Simply the Best

That's some amazing luck. Out of curiosity, did you manage to hit front or side armor?

I just don't see taking this risk for a S10 hit unless your weapons are destroyed.

Isambard
02-07-2008, 09:46
Just a couple of points (yup, got the book infront of me).

1) Only tanks can ram. "Ramming is a rather desperate manoeuvre and means the tank must concentrate on moving at top speed....."

2) RAW allows tank shock with star engines but not ramming. Ramming prevents you from shooting and star engines are used instead of shooting so you cant do both.

3) Ramming still sounds awesome and I love the idea of blowing up whole squadrons of light vehicles with my wave serpents!

Brucopeloso
02-07-2008, 09:46
Mhhh
Looks like I need more rhinos!
35 Points for a decent transport AND ramming...... drool :D

vol-nz
02-07-2008, 10:11
When moving a tank, the player can declare that the
vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack
instead of moving normally.

To me this would indicate that tank shock and ramming are done in the movement phase.

IJW
02-07-2008, 10:19
To me this would indicate that tank shock and ramming are done in the movement phase.
Sounds like it to me as well. After all, what part of using Star Engines in the Shooting Phase is 'moving normally'?

Mister Hat
02-07-2008, 10:24
To me this would indicate that tank shock and ramming are done in the movement phase.
Personally, I gotta disagree. There is nothing RAW that states movement "phase", just moving normally. Now, as ever, the word "normal" is up for debate! What is normal?

Sign me up for using Star Engines to ram in the shooting phase.

Koryphaus
02-07-2008, 10:36
How will Holofields affect Eldar vehicles that a) ram, or b) are rammed?

xinsanityx
02-07-2008, 10:40
2) RAW allows tank shock with star engines but not ramming. Ramming prevents you from shooting and star engines are used instead of shooting so you cant do both.


the FAQ says if you're shaken(ie unable to shoot) then you can still use star engines, or any time you'd be unable to shoot you can still use star engines. So it does not count as shooting. So if you ram(ie unable to shoot) you'd still be able to use star engines.

As for "instead of moving normally" that says nothing about the movement phase, all that says to me is that instead of being able to freely move how you want, you must move your tank in the way the following sentences describe. For instance, when you move your tanks you normally have free control over how far it goes, and its ability to zig zag. However, when you preform a ramming action you don't have control over these things. The book is telling you to move a certain distance and always in a straight line "instead of moving normally."

"instead of moving normally" has nothing to do with when movement normally occurs, but has to do with how movement is normally executed.

As with every GW rule discussion it really comes down to 1 or 2 words and how you interpret the sentence.

Elios Harg
02-07-2008, 10:42
Since the tank shock rule states it may be done instead of moving normally (much like Star Engines say the vehicle may move an additional 12" in lieu of shooting), I would have to agree that Tank Shocking happens in the movement phase (that's when normal movement occurs, as opposed to special movement like Star Engines, Run, Jetpacks or Eldar Jetbikes assault move).

xinsanityx
02-07-2008, 10:57
Since the tank shock rule states it may be done instead of moving normally (much like Star Engines say the vehicle may move an additional 12" in lieu of shooting), I would have to agree that Tank Shocking happens in the movement phase (that's when normal movement occurs, as opposed to special movement like Star Engines, Run, Jetpacks or Eldar Jetbikes assault move).

I'd like for you to point out to me where it says in the rulebook that a star engine move is a special move, or where it states that its anything other than a normal move. I'd also like to know where in the rulebook it says "normal movement" happens in the movement phase. Is an assault move a "normal movement"? Its a normal part of the game that happens all the time. Or is it a special movement? What makes something a special movement or a normal movement? Is there a list in the rule book of all the special and normal movements?

And like i said in my previous post, "instead of moving normally" has nothing to do with the movement phase, it simply means that instead of you having control over your tanks movement like you normally do, you have to follow specific movement rules instead. You're following specific directional and spatial rules "instead of moving normally"

IJW
02-07-2008, 11:10
I'd also like to know where in the rulebook it says "normal movement" happens in the movement phase. Is an assault move a "normal movement"?
Bad choice - charging (at least in the 4th ed. book, I don't imagine it's changed in 5th) is always described as an 'Assault move' with capitalisation, inferring that it isn't normal movement.

xinsanityx
02-07-2008, 11:18
Bad choice - charging (at least in the 4th ed. book, I don't imagine it's changed in 5th) is always described as an 'Assault move' with capitalisation, inferring that it isn't normal movement.

and where does it define a normal move? Inferring is not RAW.

edit- after a quick glance at the rule book, I have found 2 instances where "assault move" is not capitalized, and 0 where it is capitalized

gaiaterra
02-07-2008, 11:25
Time to make things interesting.

Ork Battle wagon raming the front of a land raider, if the ramming distance was 3 inches neither are hurt because the strenght of the hit is not high enough. However if you give the battle wagon a death roller, the land raider will take d6 or 2d6 (cant remember which) s10 hits because the ramming is a tank shock.

IJW
02-07-2008, 11:27
and where does it define a normal move? Inferring is not RAW
Equally, you're inferring that moves that take place at unusual times (such as the shooting phase) and/or with odd restrictions are 'normal'. You could equally argue that Fleet & Massacre moves are 'normal', but I doubt you'd find many people backing you up.

At best, it's not covered by RAW and you'd have to roll off - at worst, it's Easter Egg time...

xinsanityx
02-07-2008, 11:37
I'm not inferring anything, my whole point was that it does not define what a normal nor a special move is. Because it never defines these terms you can not assume that "instead of moving normally" means that a tank shock is instead of a normal move. There is no such thing as a normal move, that was my whole point.

Because there is no such thing as a normal move, the only other way you can interpret it is that it is telling you that instead of you having control over the tanks movement distance and direction like you normally would, you must follow the tank shock rules instead of moving normally, of your own volition.

For instance, when i use my star engines i would normally get to move 12 inches and be free to zig zag everywhere. If i decided to tankshock with those 12 inches i would not be allowed to zig zag everywhere as i normally would. I would instead have to follow the movement rules that tank shocking and ramming describe. So, i would not be allowed to move "normally" with my star engines, as normally i would be allowed to zig zag. If I tank shock it's instead of moving as i normally would with my star engines.

x-esiv-4c
02-07-2008, 11:48
If you were playing against Nurgle you would have lost :)

vol-nz
02-07-2008, 11:55
unwritten rule #1 - Common sense shall prevail.

xinsanityx
02-07-2008, 12:39
unwritten rule #1 - Common sense shall prevail.

common sense says to me if I've already gone kamikaze and decided to bash my tank into another tank, and i have some super special screamin' jet engines, i'm gonna open those engines up and scream across the field towards that poor soul as fast as that tank will take me, and i'm going to make sure i do some damage.

If a kamikaze pilot has a way to do more damage to its target, wouldn't it? Or would it check the manual before deciding?

mockier
02-07-2008, 12:52
I'm not inferring anything, my whole point was that it does not define what a normal nor a special move is. Because it never defines these terms you can not assume that "instead of moving normally" means that a tank shock is instead of a normal move. There is no such thing as a normal move, that was my whole point.

Because there is no such thing as a normal move, the only other way you can interpret it is that it is telling you that instead of you having control over the tanks movement distance and direction like you normally would, you must follow the tank shock rules instead of moving normally, of your own volition.

For instance, when i use my star engines i would normally get to move 12 inches and be free to zig zag everywhere. If i decided to tankshock with those 12 inches i would not be allowed to zig zag everywhere as i normally would. I would instead have to follow the movement rules that tank shocking and ramming describe. So, i would not be allowed to move "normally" with my star engines, as normally i would be allowed to zig zag. If I tank shock it's instead of moving as i normally would with my star engines.

What are you smoking?

They don't need to define normal, that's what dictionaries are for.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/normal

Something that isn't normal is a vehicle with star engines as:
1. It is an upgrade
2. Only Eldar can get them
3. Extra movement is in the shooting phase and that isn't normal either.

You strike me as someone who likes to bend the rules to win games. How about coming up with non beardy ways to win games.

reds8n
02-07-2008, 12:57
I think the rules would tend to suggest that you can ram using the star engines, however I wonder if perhaps the impact might only count as having taken place at the speed boost granted by the extra move as opposed to the move as a whole ?

Seeing as the vehicles move ended for the turn at the end of the movement phase, the new movement whilst stacking "in our heads" is technically in anotehr phase and therefore separate ?

Brushmonkey
02-07-2008, 13:00
What are you smoking?

They don't need to define normal, that's what dictionaries are for.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/normal

Something that isn't normal is a vehicle with star engines as:
1. It is an upgrade
2. Only Eldar can get them
3. Extra movement is in the shooting phase and that isn't normal either.

You strike me as someone who likes to bend the rules to win games. How about coming up with non beardy ways to win games.

Then all other vehicles with some kind of movement upgrade cannot Ram or Tank Shock at all as they are not moving normally.

You're a pretty insulting character with that last line.

Sondosia
02-07-2008, 13:01
And those elves began again...
Then Sammael of the Ravenwing said "Enough of this BS. Fetch me my flying landraider:evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:."

Brushmonkey
02-07-2008, 13:01
I think the rules would tend to suggest that you can ram using the star engines, however I wonder if perhaps the impact might only count as having taken place at the speed boost granted by the extra move as opposed to the move as a whole ?

Seeing as the vehicles move ended for the turn at the end of the movement phase, the new movement whilst stacking "in our heads" is technically in anotehr phase and therefore separate ?

I would agree. It would be a 12" ram at best.

IJW
02-07-2008, 13:05
Then Sammael of the Ravenwing said "Enough of this BS. Fetch me my flying landraider:evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:."
Which isn't, as far as I'm aware, a Tank... ;)

fengor
02-07-2008, 13:09
As far as I understood it it goes as follows:

- Ramming is handled in the movement phase and considers the distance travelled so far.
- Star engines are engaged in the shooting phase (in lieu of shooting) and are therefor not considered for ramming speed.

that is my interpretation of RAW. Although i personally wouldnt mind if someone played it the other way against me (it does make sense to hit as ahrd as you can), as long as i have the same option.

Conclusion: It's just a game, you are on the table to have fun and use yourmouth to communicate with the other player. And if you are on a tourney ask the officials beforehand how they handle it.

Dr.Mercury
02-07-2008, 13:29
also, star engines are used "in lieu of shooting" Ramming prevents you from shooting that turn, so i'd say you probably wouldn't be able to use star engines to ram in the shooting phase.

Check the FaQ on the GW website.

They can use star engines even while shaken.

xinsanityx
02-07-2008, 14:02
What are you smoking?

They don't need to define normal, that's what dictionaries are for.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/normal

Something that isn't normal is a vehicle with star engines as:
1. It is an upgrade
2. Only Eldar can get them
3. Extra movement is in the shooting phase and that isn't normal either.

You strike me as someone who likes to bend the rules to win games. How about coming up with non beardy ways to win games.

what are you smoking? its not the definition of normal thats needed, the definition of "normal movement" is needed, because what may be "normal movement" to you might not be "normal movement" to me. I guess they also didn't need to define "fearless" or "pinned" as everyone can look in the dictionary and figure out what fearless and pinned means:rolleyes:. I also don't see how its bending the spirit of the rules, the RAW, or the intention. The point is to ram a vehicle at the highest possible speed you can.

If thats how you feel about star engines in regards to "normal" then how about red paint?

1. It's an upgrade
2. only orks can get it
3. any kind of extra movement isn't normal

it fits all 3 of your own criteria and so can't ram.

edit- i'm taking Foehammer's advice, and i'm done on this one.

foehammer888
02-07-2008, 14:04
Guys, isn't every army going to get an updated FAQ the day (maybe the day after) 5th edition is released? Rather than spending pages trying to convince each other what is "normal", why not just wait to see if the new FAQ addresses the issue?

In my opinion, you can ram with star engines. As others have mentioned, common sense prevails for me. If you are going to Ram, and have a way of moving faster and causing more damage, you are going to take it. We can argue for days about RAW, but if you look at the latest FAQs that have been released by GW, common sense is used much more often as a deciding factor than RAW.

Foehammer

Snorphel
02-07-2008, 14:06
This is what I make of it:

Star engines say "It may move an additional 12" in lieu of shooting, but troops may not..."

So nothing says that this move actually takes place in the shooting phase - i.e. it does not say "it may move 12" in the Shooting Phase instead of shooting".

Edit: and ramming twice while changing direction in one turn is illegal of course.

But on the other hand - I expect a lot of dangerous terrain tests for skimmer-tanks trying to ram! Ramming goes in a straight line, so if the target is hull down behind something the skimmer will end it's move in terrain. And if you ask me ramming is ending a move in(to) terrain anyway.

Cheers, J.

AgeOfEgos
02-07-2008, 14:10
I think the rules would tend to suggest that you can ram using the star engines, however I wonder if perhaps the impact might only count as having taken place at the speed boost granted by the extra move as opposed to the move as a whole ?

Seeing as the vehicles move ended for the turn at the end of the movement phase, the new movement whilst stacking "in our heads" is technically in anotehr phase and therefore separate ?

That's exactly how I've read it. The provision of 'No shooting when you ram' is provided because you may possibly blow the tank up after you ram, leaving your tank to complete it's move (Or ram another). The rules specifically address this, as it would happen after the ramming phase.

This leads me to believe Star Engines won't work. Unless you choose to Star Engine after you ram?

LemonScampi
02-07-2008, 14:16
...you can not assume that "instead of moving normally" means that a tank shock is instead of a normal move....

Not getting involved in anyone elses arguement or anything, or taking a side in whether they can or cannot ram in this manner, but surely the one thing you can take from the statement "Instead of moving normally" is that said action is instead of a normal move. You are correct that one doesn't assume that, it's implicitly stated. That's the only statement made by the collaboration of those particular words...

On a rules note I'd say it's up for debate whether you can do it or not, from a logical perspective it makes sense to be able to do it. I can't manage to find enough of me that cares that I'd argue with someone that tried to do it to me, or that I'd risk the debate it'd spark by attempting it myself.

Elios Harg
02-07-2008, 14:25
This is what I make of it:

Star engines say "It may move an additional 12" in lieu of shooting, but troops may not..."

So nothing says that this move actually takes place in the shooting phase - i.e. it does not say "it may move 12" in the Shooting Phase instead of shooting".

Edit: and ramming twice while changing direction in one turn is illegal of course.

But on the other hand - I expect a lot of dangerous terrain tests for skimmer-tanks trying to ram! Ramming goes in a straight line, so if the target is hull down behind something the skimmer will end it's move in terrain. And if you ask me ramming is ending a move in(to) terrain anyway.

Cheers, J.

The Eldar FAQ states that the Star Engines move happens in the shooting phase.

Snorphel
02-07-2008, 14:27
The Eldar FAQ states that the Star Engines move happens in the shooting phase.

A rather splendid FAQ then...

Brushmonkey
02-07-2008, 14:38
So you can make a second ram in the shooting phase, with a maximum speed of 12"?

Homer S
02-07-2008, 15:06
The Eldar FAQ states that the Star Engines move happens in the shooting phase.

... and the ramming rules state that it is movement in the turn, not in the movement phase. I'm in the add it on camp and the 36" must be in a straight line, but that is either one very lucky Wave Serpent or one very dead Wave Serpent.

Homer

BTW There is no "ramming phase". Move, Shoot, Assault are the only "phases".

Azzy
02-07-2008, 15:45
Personally, I gotta disagree. There is nothing RAW that states movement "phase", just moving normally. Now, as ever, the word "normal" is up for debate! What is normal?

Hmm, I'm having a deja-vu moment. It's like the clock has turned back time and the "scout move and turbo-boosting" debate is raging all over again.

oni
02-07-2008, 16:26
Aww lame why'd GW have to ruin every ones fun.

Because it would make 40K a big demolition derby of FAIL!

Misanthrope
02-07-2008, 17:01
Yes, we wonderful orks can hit you with d6 S10 hits without having to even ram you :D

And then hit you with another S10 hit from a Wreckin' ball :D

...and then maybe ram you anyway! :D

Drek
02-07-2008, 17:44
I had a game today with a Chaos Nurgal Marine force, I got turn 1 and sent a Wave serpent flying across the board with Star Engines and slamming into a Defiler blowing off its Battle Cannon.

How on earth did you hit him? The most you could get in one turn of movement with what you described is 24" of movement (either Flat Out which prevents using Star Engines OR 12" and then Star Engines in the Shooting Phase). If you used Star Engines to ram, thats a total ramming Strength of 7 against the Defiler and 6 against your tank.


On my next turn I zipped across the field and hit a predator Anhiliator (the one with the Las Cannons) and detonated it, zipped back to the Defiler and blowing it up. In all three turns I ended up getting my Serpent Shaken Twice, 115 points worth of transports took out 300+, leaving the rest of my army to work on dropping those annoying Plague Marines.

Next turn you hit a Predator and a Defiler. Lets say you moved exactly 12" to hit the Pred as you used Star Engines in the same turn to come back and hit the Defiler. A ramming hit on the front of a Pred would have resulted in the Pred taking a STR 7 (which could not result in its detonation) hit while you took a STR 8 hit in return. On the side, you would have taken a STR 6 hit. The Defiler was hit again at the same value as before. You got lucky to blow up the Defiler rolling a Penetrate on the second hit as well as the Pred.

Ramming looks decent with a Serpent I will admit (as long as you don't want the Serpent to live long) but it is highly dangerous to your own tank and not a bad suicide tactic if you flat out ram with it (24" flat out = STR 11).

Snorphel
02-07-2008, 18:23
On the sideline - (don't have the new rules here) - if you plan a ram - but enemy infantry is in the way (in front of your target) - would that be a tank shock and a ram in one?

If so - the enemy could try to 'protect' his tanks with infantry - hoping for a successful Death or Glory.

Cheers J.

Democratus
02-07-2008, 18:37
Check the FaQ on the GW website.

They can use star engines even while shaken.

That changes nothing. All it does is add the special exception for a shaken vehicle. Star Engines are still 'in lieu of shooting' for all other purposes unless they FAQ it again.

Danny Internet
02-07-2008, 20:42
That changes nothing. All it does is add the special exception for a shaken vehicle. Star Engines are still 'in lieu of shooting' for all other purposes unless they FAQ it again.

Wrong.

The FAQ is extremely explicit in that it says "As long as the vehicle is allowed to move that turn, and does not shoot or embark/disembark troops, it may use its Star Engines." The exception for shaken is given as an example, not as the rule itself.

Source: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610177_Eldar_FAQ_2008-05_Edition.pdf


On the sideline - (don't have the new rules here) - if you plan a ram - but enemy infantry is in the way (in front of your target) - would that be a tank shock and a ram in one?

If so - the enemy could try to 'protect' his tanks with infantry - hoping for a successful Death or Glory.

From the rulebook, "Units other than vehicles in the way of a ramming tank are tank shocked as normal." So, yep, you can keep infantry in front for a Death or Glory defense.

king_mob
02-07-2008, 21:26
I don't have the Eldar codex in front of me, but I believe Star Engines kick in during the Shooting phase, which means they are of no use for ramming (because this is done in the Movement phase).

The codex merely states that Star Engines can be used "in lieu of shooting". It never specifies which phase the extra movement can be used.

IJW
02-07-2008, 21:32
The codex merely states that Star Engines can be used "in lieu of shooting". It never specifies which phase the extra movement can be used.
While the Eldar FAQ (as already quoted several times in this thread) tells us that it happens in the Shooting Phase...

setekhite
02-07-2008, 21:33
Oh, god.

This is all bringing back memories of the nightmare that was ramming in 2nd edition... what on earth posessed GW to bring it back?

Killgore
02-07-2008, 21:35
Oh, god.

This is all bringing back memories of the nightmare that was ramming in 2nd edition... what on earth posessed GW to bring it back?

i intend to turn all my foes's vehicles into smoking craters before they get a chance to ram

ramming? nah not bothered by it ;)

king_mob
02-07-2008, 21:38
While the Eldar FAQ (as already quoted several times in this thread) tells us that it happens in the Shooting Phase...

My bad, I was in the middle of setting up a ram. :)

To be especially pedantic, the new rulebook states that "Ramming is executed exactly like a Tank Shock move, except that the tank must always move as fast as it can." Assuming that a ramming Stabby Engine'd Serpent either survived or missed its ram, then it *has* to kick in its Stabby Engines in the following Shooting phase... since, by RAW, those count as moving "as fast as it can."

Snorphel
02-07-2008, 22:09
My bad, I was in the middle of setting up a ram. :)

To be especially pedantic, the new rulebook states that "Ramming is executed exactly like a Tank Shock move, except that the tank must always move as fast as it can." Assuming that a ramming Stabby Engine'd Serpent either survived or missed its ram, then it *has* to kick in its Stabby Engines in the following Shooting phase... since, by RAW, those count as moving "as fast as it can."

Cool! So being near the edge of the table is a big plus then!

Gensuke626
02-07-2008, 22:36
If thats how you feel about star engines in regards to "normal" then how about red paint?

1. It's an upgrade
2. only orks can get it
3. any kind of extra movement isn't normal

it fits all 3 of your own criteria and so can't ram.



You're right, Red Paint doesn't allow an ork trukk to Ram, it's the reinforced Ram.

Also, Red Paint, though triggered in the movement phase, says that you don't count the extra inch, so a trukk going at 13" still only counts as moveing 12"

Danny Internet
02-07-2008, 23:11
You're right, Red Paint doesn't allow an ork trukk to Ram, it's the reinforced Ram.

Also, Red Paint, though triggered in the movement phase, says that you don't count the extra inch, so a trukk going at 13" still only counts as moveing 12"

I suppose vehicles cannot ram if they are utilizing movement reserved for fast vehicles or skimmers either, since these are not normal types of movement for vehicles, by your logic.

Gensuke626
02-07-2008, 23:57
It's not my logic danny. It's some other guy's logic. Really, what I ought to have typed is 'A trukk going 19" still counts as having moved 18" ' since a trukk can naturally move 18"

But if everyone wants to get REALLY technical "Normal Movement" as in movement as defined by the movement section of the rules is reserved for infantry on foot. It's a bit of a daft arguement and I get the feeling that this is mostly going to be a rehash of 4th ed's "Can a Deffkopta Turbo-Scout?" (Which we WILL NOT discuss here).

Point is, there are people who take the rules too literally and end up saying silly things.

Ixe
02-07-2008, 23:59
Why are we arguing about Red Paint Job and ramming? If the rumors are true, ramming gets +1S per 3". And red paint grants 1" of extra movement. 1 < 3. So... doesn't even matter? :wtf:

Gensuke626
03-07-2008, 00:07
Danny brought up the paint as to reply to my post, which was replying to an earlier arguement about whether or not Star Engines aid in the Ram.

Danny Internet
03-07-2008, 00:23
It's not my logic danny. It's some other guy's logic. Really, what I ought to have typed is 'A trukk going 19" still counts as having moved 18" ' since a trukk can naturally move 18"

But if everyone wants to get REALLY technical "Normal Movement" as in movement as defined by the movement section of the rules is reserved for infantry on foot. It's a bit of a daft arguement and I get the feeling that this is mostly going to be a rehash of 4th ed's "Can a Deffkopta Turbo-Scout?" (Which we WILL NOT discuss here).

Point is, there are people who take the rules too literally and end up saying silly things.

I apologize if you were only playing devil's advocate. However, this is a game made up of rules and I firmly believe that those rules should be followed as written whenever possible to a reasonable degree. It is important to do so because the rules are the one universal set of expectations about how this game is to be played that we all share.

"Rules as intended" arguments are often adopted by individuals and groups with no small amount of bias. While it's all well and good for isolated groups that naturally evolve their own way of enjoying the game, it is often off-putting and sometimes unfair to others who have prepared their armies and tactics based around the rules as written. One example from my own experience was when I visited a games store where it was widely believed, for whatever reason, that deepstriking was extremely cheesy and unfair. To limit the perceived power of deepstriking, the gaming group decided that any units deepstriking into difficult terrain or on to a hill would be immediately destroyed. Of course, they didn't tell me this until I teleported in a unit of terminators into a forest, not that it would have made much of difference given the copious amount of terrain on the board.

Anyways, the point is that we all have equal access to the rules and playing them as written is the most sure-fire way to ensure that there will be no unfair surprises levied on players. House rules, RAI arguments, etc are perfectly fine...as long as they are agreed upon beforehand by both sides.

belize13
03-07-2008, 00:36
if you are going to use your star engines to ram, after the movement phase is over, then when adding up how far you moved, you only get to count the star engine movement as you are ramming in a new phase.

try to include your regular movement and star engine movement into your ramming strength and I would slap you with a salmon, pack up my models and declare I will never play you again as I do not play with silly people.

Natura
03-07-2008, 00:55
For starters, Ramming does not disallow the Ramming vehicle to Shoot after it Rams. Ramming vehicles have to move at their top speed, and no vehicle can fire any weapons moving at top speed (aside from Walkers). The Ramming rules state "the tank must concentrate on moving at top speed towards one enemy vehicle. This means that it may not shoot in that turn's Shooting phase". So I can't see why Star Engines couldn't be used.

The Tank Shock rules do not state that it must take place in the movement phase. It simply says "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally." I can't find anything that would prevent a tank with Star Engines from Tank Shocking/Ramming in the Shooting phase.

A FAQ would be good though.

Ixe
03-07-2008, 01:18
I can't see why anyone is upset over star engines + ramming. The only tanks that can have star engines are both expensive and valuable on the battlefield. And they're just as likely as their target to blow up if they do an uber-ram with star engines. The only time it would happen is if their weapons all get blown off. In which case I think it's cool and cinematic to have them try and ram in a desperate attempt for glory...

But in the end, it shouldn't matter if star engines work or not. If they do, it's as much a problem for the rammer as the rammee. There's an argument on both sides, but it may as well come down to a d6 for all the real difference it makes.

Gensuke626
03-07-2008, 01:19
an FAQ would be fantastic...I want to know if a Lith can Flux Arc after it rams...even though it can only ram for...what? S6...maybe 7?

AgeOfEgos
03-07-2008, 01:32
For starters, Ramming does not disallow the Ramming vehicle to Shoot after it Rams. Ramming vehicles have to move at their top speed, and no vehicle can fire any weapons moving at top speed (aside from Walkers). The Ramming rules state "the tank must concentrate on moving at top speed towards one enemy vehicle. This means that it may not shoot in that turn's Shooting phase". So I can't see why Star Engines couldn't be used.

The Tank Shock rules do not state that it must take place in the movement phase. It simply says "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally." I can't find anything that would prevent a tank with Star Engines from Tank Shocking/Ramming in the Shooting phase.

A FAQ would be good though.

"This means it may not shoot in that turn's shooting phase". I assume this was put in for the scenario of a tank ramming with minimal movement (which would still allow shooting if they manage to blow up the enemy since they lacked the movement to qualify as 'Cruising').

I can't believe noone has mentioned the 3+ Inv save Skimmers get against Ramming ^^.

Gensuke626
03-07-2008, 01:37
is that always active or only when they're on the recieveing end?

AgeOfEgos
03-07-2008, 01:41
is that always active or only when they're on the recieveing end?

Only when they catch. They still take damage when they pitch.

shank911
03-07-2008, 01:55
i don't get why they made the new ramming rules so powerful for skimmers.

It was supposed to be for land based vehicles to be better not a fragile tau or eldar skimmer:mad:

Copella
03-07-2008, 03:48
Skimmer's don't really benefit too much. If they want to use that full insane charge of 36" of ramming, thats ah, a Str. 12 hit. Seeing a skimmer hit a tank like a pred or rhino, would mean that the Skimmer takes a Str. 13 hit (Auto pen). Yeah, they prolly just destroyed the Rhino or Pred, but certainly blew themselves sky high as well.
IIRC, you also get a bonus to the damage result from excessive pen rating. So say the owner of the Rhino rolls a 4 to pent. Total of Str. 17, thats 5 over the armor of a Wave serpent. Yeah, the wave serpent would be dust.
Someone with the rule book might be able to clear this up a bit easier.

I've yet to see ramming in a game tho, so i'm not 100% on its workings.

Natura
03-07-2008, 04:30
Skimmer's don't really benefit too much. If they want to use that full insane charge of 36" of ramming, thats ah, a Str. 12 hit. Seeing a skimmer hit a tank like a pred or rhino, would mean that the Skimmer takes a Str. 13 hit (Auto pen). Yeah, they prolly just destroyed the Rhino or Pred, but certainly blew themselves sky high as well.
IIRC, you also get a bonus to the damage result from excessive pen rating. So say the owner of the Rhino rolls a 4 to pent. Total of Str. 17, thats 5 over the armor of a Wave serpent. Yeah, the wave serpent would be dust.
Someone with the rule book might be able to clear this up a bit easier.

I've yet to see ramming in a game tho, so i'm not 100% on its workings.

You can't raise any stat over 10, with the exception of attacks.

Natura
03-07-2008, 04:31
"This means it may not shoot in that turn's shooting phase". I assume this was put in for the scenario of a tank ramming with minimal movement (which would still allow shooting if they manage to blow up the enemy since they lacked the movement to qualify as 'Cruising').

I can't believe noone has mentioned the 3+ Inv save Skimmers get against Ramming ^^.

Well here's where it gets difficult. If I declare that I am going to be moving at maximum speed, but circumstances prevent me from moving at that speed, what speed do I actually count as moving?

vol-nz
03-07-2008, 04:46
"This means it may not shoot in that turn's shooting phase". I assume this was put in for the scenario of a tank ramming with minimal movement (which would still allow shooting if they manage to blow up the enemy since they lacked the movement to qualify as 'Cruising').

I can't believe noone has mentioned the 3+ Inv save Skimmers get against Ramming ^^.

What 3+ inv save?

Ragewind
03-07-2008, 05:34
Alright back to the fray lets see if I can clear some things up.

First off The defiler and the Pred were 32 inches from each other and the ramming occurred over 3 turns, Although it never occurred to me that if I moved 24ish inches to Ram during my movement phase I could AGAIN (assuming I survived) Ram with the Star engines for a total of 2 rams a turn. Also Holo-Fields (which serpents cant get) would affect Ram damage as it stats "Whenever dice is rolled on the damage chart" so unless you are ramming with a Falcon or Prism (why?!) then you would get it.

I double checked the rules today and discussed it with a few people...

The +1 to damage for moving 3 inches is Culmultive! as it simply says "Turn", I.E. if I rammed twice (as mentioned above) then I would do 2 STR 10 hits if I used Star Engines to hit another target and I moved all at least 24 inches during the first move.

Taking the above paragraph a step further imagine this....

1) I see a enemy tank 30 inches from me, I then Move "Flat Out" going a total of 24 inches.
2) Since Damage is cumulative, I then use the Star Engines to move another 12 inches coming in contact with the enemy vehicle.
3) I ram him for a Str 10 hit

So try not to think of it as one complete move but as simply finishing the Ram on my final stretch. This is also doubly important as you can Ram a enemy vehicle turn 1 using Star engines, which is some Nice Anti-Tank that is super hard to avoid. Also they would not get a cover save as far as I can tell , if they started in cover, since it is a up close and personal attack.

In fact I love the idea of troops protecting a tank from me, as if they do blow it up it has a great chance of still killing the troops due to the explosion, and if you have troops inside the tank (i typically stick Wraithguard in) then the enmy has a nice little surprise waiting for them.

Whats really interesting if you blow up your tank during the movement phase (OR SHOOTING PHASE !!!) with troops inside they then drop out, couldn't you just then activate them and shoot the enemy tank anyway...like with Wraithguard or Fire Dragons. Even if the ram was unsuccesful you can still slag the enemy tank with the weapons those 2 squads pack, heck if you DID blow up the enemy tank you can shoot ANOTHER for a total of 2 dead tanks turn 1!! Man....so...good...


What 3+ inv save?

Its 4+ I believe and if you use it you cannot Ram as you wont be dealing any damage.

kikkoman
03-07-2008, 05:41
If orks had star engines, everyone would be for it

but this is space elfs, so instead of being orky fun, it's "those arrogant bastards!"

everyone break out your 2ed, plow shaped wave serpent!



Too bad they took out hull blades as a vehicle upgrade for the Eldar.

Dach
03-07-2008, 05:44
I will try to resume a bit here, many idea floating aroud...

(I'm basing my argument with the pdf, don't have the rule book if you see something wrong that may have changed in the actual rulebook, go ahead.)

First: Only Tank can ram (Except the orks vehicle that pay an upgrade for it)

Second: Eldar Tank with Star engine can make 1 ram each time they move. One ram of 24" in the movement phase and one of 12" with engine in the shooting phase.

Third: Skimmer get a save against Ramming not when they are the rammer. Otherwise like the OP said they can make their save but the ram doesn't happen (Hmm driver got afraid at the last second.)

Fourth: You get +1 Str for every FULL 3 inch you made between you're starting point and the enemy vehicle. So red paint for orks greatly augment your choice of getting that last point of Str. They got another 1 inch of room to complete another FULL 3 inch. Other Tank will need to be exaclty on the 3 inch mark which will happen about 1% of the time. (With WAAC player I reckon it will happen 50% of the time.)

Damage are cumultive for each ram, second ram doesn't add with the first...

Fifth: Walker can make a Death of glory attack against Ramming, If they manage to Stun, Immobilize or Destroy the incoming rammer the ram doesn't happen. Otherwise they get rolled over and the impact happen on the rear armor of the walker.

So to correct the OP:
- Ramming at speed of 36" is Impossible.
- Ramming a Walker with Str 10 with an AV value of 12 will mostly stop the ram. Even if he fail you still take a hit from the ram.

deathwing_marine
03-07-2008, 05:48
No, I'm almost certain that skimmers get a 3+ save against getting rammed. Which is retarded because a Monolith couuld dodge a speeding Falcon. wtf

EDIT: Dach kind of ninja'd me

Ragewind
03-07-2008, 05:48
Dark Eldar can also ram with their skimmers if they upgrade them with a Torture Amp...and it costs like 5 points.

55 point screaming guided missles with a payload of Close Combat nightmarish creatures.....sounds exactly like DE


If orks had star engines, everyone would be for it

but this is space elfs, so instead of being orky fun, it's "those arrogant bastards!"

everyone break out your 2ed, plow shaped wave serpent!



Too bad they took out hull blades as a vehicle upgrade for the Eldar.

:p:p:p:p !!!

I wouldn't say Ramming at 36 inches is impossible Dach as I pointed out you can still eek that last `12 inches out with the Star engines and hit them for 36inches worth of damage alone,(due to the fact all movement during the turn stacks) besides the fact that it probably caps at Str10 this enables turn 1 rams and its very hard to get away when you are screaming across the battle field at 36 per turn and you enemy can only move 12. With the Skimmer Moving Fast Save and the needing 6's to hit it in CC, you are almost guaranteed to survive reaching your target every turn.

Dach
03-07-2008, 06:02
Where do it say movement add up??

A ram happen when you move (say 24") then your tank stop. If you didn't reach any enemy vehicle no ram happen.

Then you try another in the shooting phase.

So still the first ram you made against the Defiler was wrong. If he make the Death or Glory he got 83% chance of at least doing a a glancing. Then if glancing 50% chance to stop (Either Stun or Immobilize)

or

66% to make a penetrating with bring another 66% chance of stopping the ram (Stun, Immobilize or Destroyed (Wrecked or Explode)

Which translate in much much chance your WS was screwed even before he ram one time. :skull:

Ragewind
03-07-2008, 06:06
@Ragewind: Go re-read my post apove as I just edited...

Also where do it say movement add up??

A ram happen when you move (say 24") then your tank stop. If you didn't reach any enemy vehicle no ram happen.

Then you try another in the shooting phase.

In the rulebook it says that for every 3 full inches you moved that Turn then you add +1 damage. last I checked the shooting phase happens before the end of the turn. Its part of the chart that breaks down how you calculate the STR of the attack.


Where do it say movement add up??

A ram happen when you move (say 24") then your tank stop. If you didn't reach any enemy vehicle no ram happen.

Then you try another in the shooting phase.

So still the first ram you made against the Defiler was wrong. If he make the Death or Glory he got 83% chance of at least doing a a glancing. Then if glancing 50% chance to stop (Either Stun or Immobilize)

or

66% to make a penetrating with bring another 66% chance of stopping the ram (Stun, Immobilize or Destroyed (Wrecked or Explode)


He didn't actually DoG, I don't think he knew he could, I certinaly didn't since my Warwalkers never have EVER made it into CC so I just kinda skipped the section in the rules talking about Walkers.

Dach
03-07-2008, 06:15
The wording I got in the pdf:

"Each full 3” moved by the
ramming vehicle before impact".

Not exaclty the same...

Anyone with a Rulebook can confirm the actual reality?! :D

Ragewind
03-07-2008, 06:17
The wording I got in the pdf:

"Each full 3” moved by the
ramming vehicle before impact".

Not exactly the same...

Anyone with a Rulebook can confirm the actual reality?! :D

I can! Since i read it over and over around 3 hours ago while discussing it with other people. Oh well no one will believe "Those Arrogant Bastard" space elfs right?

I'm off for the night, ill check in again tomorrow and see what happened.

Ixe
03-07-2008, 06:21
Heh... I think that ramming 36" violates the spirit of the rules bigtime. And ramming TWICE goes beyond any healthy definition of "violation."

HOWEVER: If you really wanted to do it, I'd let you. You want to risk your own tank for a chance to take out one of mine? That's fair... Just remember that the harder you ram, the more likely you are to blow up. It's not just a free shot, it's a sacrifice of a perfectly good tank. If that's going to be your tactic, then by all means, go ahead... Whether you ram with S8 or S10, it's just as bad for you as it is for me.

Dach
03-07-2008, 06:56
2 ram by turn is not actually against the rule since if you ram something at 12" and make it explode you can still ram another vehicle in the same line at 24".

About the 36" ram, I just re-read the description in Tank Shock which ramming is based upon.

Quoted from there:

"....declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move. Once the vehicle has been ‘aimed’ and the speed declared, move the vehicle forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared – no other changes of direction are allowed.

(This IMO can only apply in one phase and the distance aimed will be your maximum speed so the 12" in the shooting phase is out of question for the speed declared)

If no enemy unit is reached, just move the vehicle and no special attack takes place."

End of ram.

Thought if we clarify the str 10 max or more, that may solve the anomisity overall since a Eldar Tank will reach str 10 at 21".

7 Str for 21 inch + 2 for AV 12 + 1 for Tank = 10.

The only bonus will be the range of the ram, thought it still need to be in a straight line. Not so much a bonus, I can do with it.

Elios Harg
03-07-2008, 07:27
Just wanted to comment on a few things I saw come up since I last had a chance to read the thread.

Ramming into cover: Yes, you're correct that they should not get a cover save, but beware that you would have to take a difficult terrain check even as a skimmers since you are ending your move in difficult terrain. Which could cause your flat out moving skimmer to become immobilized and crash thus not harming the target at all.

Monolith dodging a speeding Falcon: Skimmers cannot dodge skimmers, only gound vehicles.

Pacific
03-07-2008, 07:57
So I guess everyone should be modelling little headbands, painted white with a red sun in the centre of it on their transport vehicle crew?

Already it has begun.. Jesus H. Christ I'm glad I don't play in the same club as some of you guys :)

Lax
03-07-2008, 08:52
Ramming a monolith is indeed a bad idea ^^

Since only tanks can ram, it only leaves this eldar transport question, that's not as awful as V2 ramming.

I hope the fact that a FAQ will restrain it (confirm for trukk ram or not etc...), because the vehicle shouldn't be able to do anything else in the turn.
I explain myself :
-You chose to ram, that means moving flat out in the movement phase.
-Rather than "no shooting" if moved flat out while ramming, it should be "can't do anything in shooting phase".

It has to be nerfed like this, else being able to destroy two vehicles a turn with a tranport that is not used is just sick.

I just thought of a cool thing, as a BA player, the boosted engines ^^!
A BA Rhino can ram at S8 :p instead of S6, now they can join the CC with all the army ahah

Elios Harg
03-07-2008, 09:13
Well, remember something... a) Vehicles are not removed unless they explode b) once you've declared a ram, you get to pivot once then move straight for the rest of your move, so if the Wave Serpent rammed and failed to explode it's target, it could not then turn and ram something else with Star engines.

If people are arguing that the Star Engine move is separate from the original, then it the distance moved would not be cumulative for the second ram.

graveaccomplice
03-07-2008, 10:11
haven't seen this in the thread yet, so I'll take a stab.

Using star engines during a ram is unneccesary if you have a full move ith your wave serpent. You get 8 for the 24" move, 1 for the tank, and 2 for the armor. As strength can't go over 10, there's no need. As for covering extra distance, we'll need to wait for GW to FAQ whether ramming is during the move and star engines are used during the shooting phase.


Also, doesn't the pic explaining ramming show a rhino ramming an ork buggy? Wouldn't this mean that you don't have to be a tank to ram?

IJW
03-07-2008, 10:16
Also, doesn't the pic explaining ramming show a rhino ramming an ork buggy? Wouldn't this mean that you don't have to be a tank to ram?
Rhinos are tanks.

Lax
03-07-2008, 10:20
Using star engines during a ram is unneccesary if you have a full move ith your wave serpent. You get 8 for the 24" move, 1 for the tank, and 2 for the armor. As strength can't go over 10, there's no need.
That's not about getting more strenght !
The fact is that they suggest you can ram, then in the shooting phase ram another one !

fengor
03-07-2008, 10:51
i guess my friends and me are going to handle it as if the star engines are part of the normal move. So its point in a direction and lets cut loose. We handled it in the 4th like that anyway for convenience sake.

vol-nz
03-07-2008, 11:15
haven't seen this in the thread yet, so I'll take a stab.

Using star engines during a ram is unneccesary if you have a full move ith your wave serpent. You get 8 for the 24" move, 1 for the tank, and 2 for the armor. As strength can't go over 10, there's no need. As for covering extra distance, we'll need to wait for GW to FAQ whether ramming is during the move and star engines are used during the shooting phase.


Also, doesn't the pic explaining ramming show a rhino ramming an ork buggy? Wouldn't this mean that you don't have to be a tank to ram?

it is only charateristics that can't go over 10, this str hit is not one of those.

Elios Harg
03-07-2008, 11:29
Strength is a characteristic.

marv335
03-07-2008, 11:43
Also, doesn't the pic explaining ramming show a rhino ramming an ork buggy? Wouldn't this mean that you don't have to be a tank to ram?

The Rhino is a tank.

foehammer888
03-07-2008, 12:00
Its 4+ I believe and if you use it you cannot Ram as you wont be dealing any damage. Its not an invul save. The rules just state that a skimmer may opt to dodge when a vehicle tries to ram them, and it succeeds on a 3+. If they suceed I believe the enemy vehicles stops as the crew are "bewildered". I'm not sure if it specified if this could only be used against non skimmers.

Honestly people, is this worth all this debate? If an eldar player wants to RAM his 100-200+ point tanks into my 35-100 point tanks, he's free to try. I'm still betting on this getting FAQed right out of the gates. Save your debates for if it isn't FAQed in a week.

Foehammer

Elios Harg
03-07-2008, 12:23
That's my thought, if the Eldar want to use a Star Engine Wave Serpent to get a risky S10 hit that is as likely (or more) to destroy itself rather than use a TL Bright Lance, be my guest. Figure a Wave serpent ramming a Land Raider is going to be 4 to glance, 5 to penetrate, while only a 2 to glance, 3 to penetrate itself. Better off shooting a TL Bright Lance and having the same odds with no risk. Against a Dreadnought equivalent, they're likely to get destroyed or stopped by Death or Glory.

Most of the vehicles expensive enough to make the trade worthwhile have AV12 on the sides and 13 or more on the front

reds8n
03-07-2008, 12:37
Its not an invul save. The rules just state that a skimmer may opt to dodge when a vehicle tries to ram them, and it succeeds on a 3+. If they suceed I believe the enemy vehicles stops as the crew are "bewildered". I'm not sure if it specified if this could only be used against non skimmers.






RAMMING A SKIMMER
Skimmers may try to dodge out of the way of tanks
attempting to ram them (as long as the ramming tank
is not also a skimmer). The ramming tank stops in
contact with the skimmer as normal, but then, if the
player controlling the skimmer wants to dodge, he
rolls a D6. On a 1 or 2 the collision proceeds as normal.
On a 3+ the skimmer avoids the tank, neither vehicle
suffers any damage, and the ramming tank stops in its
tracks (literally!), its crew confused and disappointed

I think the ramming option in general is always going to be a last resort-- they even state as much in the rules themselves-- but I hope they do clarify this one way or another.

Danny Internet
03-07-2008, 13:15
You can't raise any stat over 10, with the exception of attacks.


Strength is a characteristic.

Where in the book does it say that something cannot take a hit of more than S10? From the rulebook:

(1) "To represent the different abilities of these creatures in the game, each model has a profile made up of nine numbers that describe the various aspects of their physical and mental make-up. These are called characteristics."

(2) "For all models except vehicles these characteristics are given a value on a scale of 0 to 10 -- the higher, the better (except for a model's Armour Save, where the opposite is true."

------------

The strength of a Ramming move is calculated and is not possessed by any model, therefore it is not a "characteristic" as defined by the rulebook. As a result, the stipulation of a 0-10 scale in point (2) does not apply, since this only applies to characteristics. Even if you could prove that the strength of an attack from a Ramming move is a "characteristic" as defined, it specifically says that the 0-10 scale does not apply to vehicles.

Elios Harg
03-07-2008, 14:00
The next paragraph.

"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules may modify a model's characteristic positively or negatively, by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.) or multiplying it (x2, x3, etc.). However, no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10 or lower it below 0. Saves can best be modified to 2+."

p.6

Ixe
03-07-2008, 14:29
Ok, now you can ram twice if you have spare movement left over from your first ram? Riiight... Since when could you move, do anything, and then keep moving? Since never. It's just a basic proposition of the rules. You start moving, you finish moving, your movement phase is over. No resolving a ram then continuing to move. That's just so basic that they shouldn't need to spell it out for you.

reds8n
03-07-2008, 14:34
Well the end of the ram rules states :


Both players roll for armour penetration against their
enemy vehicle and any result is immediately applied. If
the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer
halts. However, if the rammed vehicle is removed
because it suffers a ‘destroyed – explodes!’ damage
result, the rammer continues its move, until it reaches
its maximum move distance or another enemy (which it
will tank shock or ram again!).

So multiple rams are possible.

I still think the initial ram has to take place in the movement phase with a max move of 24, with another or even an initial ram capable of taking place in the shooting phase but capped at max speed 12

Lax
03-07-2008, 14:42
There is a difference between a succeful ram that blows a vehicle followed by another in a straight line, and two rams a turn, one in movement phase and one in shooting phase...
That will make me hate more eldars (may be possible) if the second is possible ^^

Fable
03-07-2008, 14:50
If any kind of grudging consensus is reached can we see this added to the Warseer FAQ. I know Foehammer has some faith in GW for being able to put out a speedy FAQ which answers this very conundrum, but I have less faith in them to get an answer to this in a reasonable time (if at all).

Ammedie
03-07-2008, 14:51
the book, which i have here, clear stats that its in the movement phase and that you have to be a tank to do it.

im glad to here that its moderatly effective though, i might try it out some time..... (so you thourght that gunless falcon wasnt going to get you did you! mwah ha ha har)

Elios Harg
03-07-2008, 15:31
In my rulebook, it does not state it clearly whatsoever. It does say Tank Shock is performed instead of moving normally, but while that can easily be interpreted as being in the movement phase, it leaves room for other interpretations as well. Thus, the debate.

Danny Internet
03-07-2008, 15:39
The next paragraph.

"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules may modify a model's characteristic positively or negatively, by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.) or multiplying it (x2, x3, etc.). However, no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10 or lower it below 0. Saves can best be modified to 2+."

p.6

As already stated, "characteristic" is explicitly defined as being possessed by a model and therefore not applicable to the strength calculated during a Ramming maneuver. It also explicitly states that the 0-10 scale does not apply to vehicles.

p.6

I would think that the intent is for S10 to be the max but the wording doesn't support this limitation for a Ramming move.

Elios Harg
03-07-2008, 15:47
Strength is also defined as a characteristic under both weapons and the characteristic section.

It states the 0-10 scale does not apply to vehicles, but it also states modifiers (which is what the ramming modifiers are) cannot raise ANY characteristic above 10. If a vehicle has a S of higher than 10 to begin with, it's fine. None do.

Danny Internet
03-07-2008, 15:58
That's well and good, but a Ramming attack neither makes use of a model's Strength characteristic nor does it use any weapons. The book says a characteristic cannot be raised above 10, however the strength of a Ramming attack is not a characteristic as defined by the rulebook (one of the 9 stats in a model's profile), so any limitations imposed on characteristics are irrelevant.

Lorieth
03-07-2008, 16:05
Sorry if this is obvious to everyone, but I'm a bit confused about the strength of an "ordinary" ramming move (i.e. forget star engines &c). Is it modified by the distance moved from the start to the target, or the total movement you declare at the start?

Incidentally the Warseer Eldar FAQ (1.0-3) states Star Engines are used in the movement phase, so they could be used to ram:

http://www.warseer.com/wintermute/Warseer%2040K%204th%20Ed%20-%20Eldar%20FAQ%20v1.0-3.pdf

Regardless of the S10 cap or not, this would enable you to potentially ram more targets so would still be useful. Whilst GW may pop this in a FAQ, they didn't put in the equivalent clarification for 4th (i.e. whether you can tank shock with star engines) so there's no particular reason to think they will for 5th.

Elios Harg
03-07-2008, 16:12
Then a ram cannot damage a vehicle...

"Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll D6 and add the weapon's Strength to it, comparing this total to the Armour Value of the appropriate facing of the vehicle."
p. 60

Armour Penetration in Close Combat
"Armour penetration is worked out the same in the same way as for shooting (D6 + the Strength of the Attacker)."
p. 63

Under Ramming:
"Both players roll for armour penetretration against their enemy vehicle and any result is immediately applied."
p. 69

Since it doesn't tell us how to roll armour penetration and the only other definitions for it state to use the Strength of the Weapon or the Strength of the attacker, the strength of the ram doesn't apply. Unless, of course, we consider it a Weapon or a Characteristic of the vehicle.

zoodog
03-07-2008, 16:14
That's well and good, but a Ramming attack neither makes use of a model's Strength characteristic nor does it use any weapons. The book says a characteristic cannot be raised above 10, however the strength of a Ramming attack is not a characteristic as defined by the rulebook (one of the 9 stats in a model's profile), so any limitations imposed on characteristics are irrelevant.

O maybe the dread will get its true strength of 12 in the new codex.

Seeing as its risky behavior for the lightly armored and expensive I'm inclined not to go calling cheese yet and am far more worried about the prospect that some people have listed of trying to blow yourself up in ram so the passengers could shoot/assault. I really hope something prevents that.

Any Idea how to model your tank crews looking bewildered and dismayed

Danny Internet
03-07-2008, 16:15
Armour Penetration in Close Combat
"Armour penetration is worked out the same in the same way as for shooting (D6 + the Strength of the Attacker)."
p. 63

Since when is a Ramming move part of Close Combat? I don't understand why you're quoting completely inapplicable sections of the rules to support your argument.

Elios Harg
03-07-2008, 16:16
Sorry if this is obvious to everyone, but I'm a bit confused about the strength of an "ordinary" ramming move (i.e. forget star engines &c). Is it modified by the distance moved from the start to the target, or the total movement you declare at the start?

Incidentally the Warseer Eldar FAQ (1.0-3) states Star Engines are used in the movement phase, so they could be used to ram:

http://www.warseer.com/wintermute/Warseer%2040K%204th%20Ed%20-%20Eldar%20FAQ%20v1.0-3.pdf

Regardless of the S10 cap or not, this would enable you to potentially ram more targets so would still be useful. Whilst GW may pop this in a FAQ, they didn't put in the equivalent clarification for 4th (i.e. whether you can tank shock with star engines) so there's no particular reason to think they will for 5th.

You use the actual distance moved once contact is made. The official GW eldar FAQ states that Star Engines are used in the Shooting phase, as has been stated previously in this thread.



Danny: Exactly, so we have no way of rolling armour penetration for a Ram since it's not a weapon :). I was quoting the only 2 places in the book that Armour Penetration is defined.

Zoodog: "A dreadnought close combat weapon is a power weapon and doubles the walker's strength in close combat (up to a maximum of 10)." p. 73

Travman
03-07-2008, 16:25
Eldar Tank Commander: "Driver, disengage star engines and *slow* to ramming speed. Our situation is dire."

Danny Internet
03-07-2008, 16:30
Danny: Exactly, so we have no way of rolling armour penetration for a Ram since it's not a weapon

Ha! Actually that's technically correct, as ridiculous as it sounds. With a strict RAW interpretation (think terminators not wearing Terminator Armor strict), you could argue that the rules don't indicate how an armor penetration roll works aside from Shooting and Assault. The rules for rolling armor penetration and damage are found in the Shooting at Vehicles section and the Vehicles and Assaults section tells us to refer to the former section, but the Ramming rules do not.

Anyways, at this point I'm really just playing devil's advocate as I would agree that the intention is for S10 to be the max and for Ramming to use the same armor penetration rules as shooting and close combat.

Elios Harg
03-07-2008, 16:32
So we've come to a consensus at least... Ramming can't hurt anything :)

Honestly, I think we're meant to assume that the Ramming vehicle either has a Strength characteristic of 0 or that the Ramming vehicle is a weapon, otherwise certain Psychic powers, hits from exploding, and generally anything that isn't a weapon or close combat attack based on the models Strength breaks for both wounding and penetration.


Additionally, Strength is only defined in 2 places in the rulebook, once under the characteristics page and once under weapons. In both places it is referred to as a characteristic.

Copella
03-07-2008, 16:53
Yeah, a Str. 10 cap really only makes sense. Mind you, even than as stated before, the wave serpent is something like 90% to get smoked as well. While the other 10% will leave it dead in the water.

Alessander
03-07-2008, 17:16
Ramming rules state that you MUST ram at the FASTEST speed possible, wouldn't that force you to use your star engines?

Loki73
03-07-2008, 17:25
So 40k will now become a crashup derby! Great getting better all the time.

Royal Tiger
03-07-2008, 17:27
well after reading all this, the ramming rule sounds..........pathetic

eriochrome
03-07-2008, 17:31
If you have to ram with tanks not landspeeder or such, then the only time ramming with a 120+ point waveserpent which generally carries good firepower on its own would be to stop a transport carrying a heavy duty unit the opponent really needs to get someplace. Something like a meganob squad in a truck or assault termis.

I guess if you give the serpent scatterlasers and then use ramming as your normal antitank it might be more useful than just giving it a lance. It seems like the OP just got really lucky or was using dubious rules like energy fields or something such that he was not destroyed. Does Holofields protect you when you ram someone? If so that would just be wrong on so many levels.

Lorieth
03-07-2008, 17:37
You use the actual distance moved once contact is made.

Thanks. In that case why do you have to specify the movement you intend to make first? Don't you have to say "flat out" every time?

If you ram a vehicle and destroy it, then go on to ram a second vehicle, is the strength of the second ram based on the movement from the start, or since the previous ram?

don_mondo
03-07-2008, 17:56
If you have to ram with tanks not landspeeder or such, then the only time ramming with a 120+ point waveserpent which generally carries good firepower on its own would be to stop a transport carrying a heavy duty unit the opponent really needs to get someplace. Something like a meganob squad in a truck or assault termis.


Or maybe the Wave Serpent has had all it's weapons destroyed........ Saw this yesterday at one of the local GW stores. Manager was running a demo game for a bunch of people, had a WS with all it's guns shot off. Declared a ramming attack on a Vindicator cause it ws all he could do with it.

Re star engines, nope, they're of no help in ramming.

Fable
03-07-2008, 18:45
Ok, let me see if I grasp this, assuming that the Str of the hit is capped at 10 then any Eldar tank can scrap out a Str 10 hit maxium.

If (for the sake of argument) a holofalcon with spirit stones rammed a dred that was 24" away it would have Base str of 8 for distance, +1 for being a tank compared to a non-tank, + 2 for the two AV points above 10, maxing out to a Str 10 hit.

Makes sense.

Now comes the tricky part.

Assuming the dred is destroyed and the holofalcon is not incapacitated we need to settle on what option is still valid:

A) as the vehicle must move as fast as possible and the rules make it allowable for multiple rams in one turn would the vehicle then be able to burst ahead dealing another 12" worth of potential Str 10 damage, since str is capped at 10 and all movement for a turn is cumulative.

B) the vehicle ends after its initial move phase and if it's star engines bring it into contact with another vehicle or unit it now can not be death or gloried nor cause tank shock, nor ram effectively giving it a ghost movement where units watch it as it gracefully passes by overhead. "Ready that firearm, private! No, wait! Hold fire! Have you ever seen anything so lovely? We can't shoot at something that esthetically pleasing."

C) the vehicle's owner must ignore the word "turn" and replace it with the word "phase" and it's only hitting at a whopping str 6 because they can't add up distance from the prior phase despite it being in the same turn. However, it still has the option of doing a tank shock or ram. Obviously the game designers chose the wrong word.

D) The vehicle may do nothing. However, if it is painted well then it is allowed to look pretty, especially if the burning reckage of the dred casts a beautiful shimmering glow on the hull of the tank.


Feel free to let me know if I missed an option or if I got my 40k RAMMING MATHS wrong.

don_mondo
03-07-2008, 19:04
Hmmmm, regular tank shock it keeps going up to the declared distance (I like that they brought that part back, that you have to declare the distance you intend to tank shock......... Declare too short, and no TS). I'll have to visit the store and see about the post ramming bit.

Caiphas Cain
03-07-2008, 19:07
Ive found that ramming is anoying, people will now put down 5 rihnos just to ram every one to heck. (belive me ive seen it happen an (almost) only tank battle with ramming doin every thing) i think its stupid that they use ramming like that and they cannot do crap to infantry(exept tank shock witch is lame))

Danny Internet
03-07-2008, 19:17
Ive found that ramming is anoying, people will now put down 5 rihnos just to ram every one to heck. (belive me ive seen it happen an (almost) only tank battle with ramming doin every thing) i think its stupid that they use ramming like that and they cannot do crap to infantry(exept tank shock witch is lame))

A rhino will only ram at S5 (S6 if it happens to be precisely 12" away from its target). This doesn't seem like a very good reason to spend points on transports that you wouldn't otherwise take.

Lax
03-07-2008, 20:45
I have read the book in english and french it says "when a vehicle moves, it can tank shock" and "ramming is a special version of tank shock".
I don't read "in movment phase" personnally

Miggidy Mack
03-07-2008, 20:57
These rules really make me want to start an Ork demolition derby army.

Gensuke626
03-07-2008, 21:11
The only thing that I'm slightly worried about is seeing Anime like Flacons zipping past a line of trukks with all of them exploding, Macross/Gundam style. I mean, you get a falcon on the flank, then ram into an ork trukk about 9-12" away, you've got a good chance to pen and cause an explosion due to opened top + Ramshackle.

Then you continue on into the next 2-3 trukks of 5-6 wartrax.

In retrospect, that would be cool, and I think I'd like to see that.

Homer S
03-07-2008, 21:59
In retrospect, that would be cool, and I think I'd like to see that.

Heck yeah! I second that.

Homer

Heritor
03-07-2008, 22:15
(I am paraphrasing)

I don't have the copy of the rules in front of me, but from what Ramming says you move at full speed in a direction of your choice initiating a ramming attack for any vehicle you hit along the way, stopping at a target you don't manage to kill (assuming you are still alive), on the chart to calculate damage it gives a +1 damage bonus for every 3 inches moved in a turn, which would include the movement from the Star Engines as the previous movement doesn't disappear.

I like the idea of Guided "missile" Systems in the form of cheap transports, kinda like a pseudo Eldar Death Company.


You are wrong..... Star Light engines give you extra movement in the shooting phase....

Ramming can only be done and must be resolved during the MOVEMENT PHASE. You get no benefits of your Star Light Engines since they are used in the shooting phase.


Also if a Wave serpent rammed say a Land Raider or a Monolith and hits said vehicle with an str 10 hit the Wave serpent gets hit with a str 8 hit aswell....

Drek
03-07-2008, 23:44
The only thing that I'm slightly worried about is seeing Anime like Flacons zipping past a line of trukks with all of them exploding, Macross/Gundam style. I mean, you get a falcon on the flank, then ram into an ork trukk about 9-12" away, you've got a good chance to pen and cause an explosion due to opened top + Ramshackle.

Then you continue on into the next 2-3 trukks of 5-6 wartrax.

In retrospect, that would be cool, and I think I'd like to see that.

Per the rule, you stop when you hit a vehicle. So, you could not do what you describe in one turn.


Also if a Wave serpent rammed say a Land Raider or a Monolith and hits said vehicle with an Str 10 hit the Wave serpent gets hit with a Str 8 hit aswell....

If a Wave Serpent rams a Land Raider, it will get hit harder then it hit the Land Raider. If a Wave Serpent went flat out and moved say 21" then it would hit the LR for (7+2+1) and get hit for (7+4+1). The rammer's speed hits the rammer as well.

Gensuke626
03-07-2008, 23:46
Hmm...I was under the impression that Exploded vehicles allowed the Ram to continue, like A Ton of other players have stated previously

Drek
04-07-2008, 00:04
My mistake. It does indeed keep moving *IF* it rolls a Destroyed Result (6) on the damage table. If it rolls wrecked, it halts in place. As you can not roll a Destroyed Result against Trukks, I am not sure how this rule will interact with them.

SanguinaryDan
04-07-2008, 01:15
If the Holofield "roll 2 use lowest" rule applies to Eldar ramming we're going to have a big problem. If they stay true to the old GW FAQ style we know and loathe it won't even get mentioned.

Then again it won't really matter since the first Eldar player that tries to pull that on me is going to find himself without an opponent right quick.

Gensuke626
04-07-2008, 01:18
My mistake. It does indeed keep moving *IF* it rolls a Destroyed Result (6) on the damage table. If it rolls wrecked, it halts in place. As you can not roll a Destroyed Result against Trukks, I am not sure how this rule will interact with them.

I read it as "If the Vehicle Explodes." While by RAW you need to get the "Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes!" Result, both the Kareen and Kaboom results in the Ork codex describe the trukk as "Exploding" and would thus no longer be in the way of the ramming tank.


If the Holofield "roll 2 use lowest" rule applies to Eldar ramming we're going to have a big problem. If they stay true to the old GW FAQ style we know and loathe it won't even get mentioned.

Then again it won't really matter since the first Eldar player that tries to pull that on me is going to find himself without an opponent right quick.

I don't see how you can be that troubled by an Eldar General who wants to suicide his expensive tanks...It's not a good tactic by any stretch of one's imagination, as it's more likely that the Falcon is going to pen itself against whatever it's hitting...
On top of that, it can't shoot, so I figure by the time any sane Eldar General starts ramming your tanks, it's either got no guns left or the general feels that it's the best way to destroy whatever he just rammed, both signs that you're winning the game against him.

Kulgur
04-07-2008, 01:21
What I find somewhat silly about ramming: A monolith, which is ponderous and can't move more then 6" per turn, gets a 3+ save against it :)

Gensuke626
04-07-2008, 01:24
it's the sloped walls...makes a great Trick Ramp!

WallWeasels
04-07-2008, 01:29
Haha yeah a monolith won't be taken down to much from ramming. Infact, I generally don't think its going to happen at all :p

it's the sloped walls...makes a great Trick Ramp!
...Great if only trukks could ram. I have the idea of several orkz in a trukk ramming into a monolith and just flying off the table from the ramp :p

Gensuke626
04-07-2008, 01:36
Umm...Trukks can Ram. If you buy Reinforced Ram you're allowed to Tank Shock, so I assume you can also Ram Vehicles...

WallWeasels
04-07-2008, 02:06
Damn it! Forgot about the Reinforced Ram thing. Well still...normally trukks can't ram :x Well still those pesky-tau Piranha's can't try to use the monolith to jump over the gameboard :)

Kyrolon
04-07-2008, 02:13
Haha yeah a monolith won't be taken down to much from ramming. Infact, I generally don't think its going to happen at all :p



I can think of one scenario I'd be desperate enough to try it.

Late in the game, no weapons higher than Str 8 on table, and no wraith/D weaponry. If the monolith had to die for some reason (contesting objective or something) I'd ram it with a serpent or falcon.

Unless I miss my guess monoliths can't be destroyed by brightlances, pulse lasers, or krak missiles anymore. With no chance to destroy on the glance, and since they never lose all of their weapons...

It leaves Eldar with few choices. There's some, but not a lot of other things available, and none are things that occur in abundance.

It will make for an interesting challenge.

Dan

Gensuke626
04-07-2008, 02:38
I can think of one scenario I'd be desperate enough to try it.

Late in the game, no weapons higher than Str 8 on table, and no wraith/D weaponry. If the monolith had to die for some reason (contesting objective or something) I'd ram it with a serpent or falcon.

Unless I miss my guess monoliths can't be destroyed by brightlances, pulse lasers, or krak missiles anymore. With no chance to destroy on the glance, and since they never lose all of their weapons...

It leaves Eldar with few choices. There's some, but not a lot of other things available, and none are things that occur in abundance.

It will make for an interesting challenge.

Dan
I'm guessing by no weapon higher than S8 and no Wraith/D guns you also mean that you lack Haywire Hawks and Fire Dragons...not that the Hawks are Excellent, but they can still pen...

Danny Internet
04-07-2008, 03:01
You are wrong..... Star Light engines give you extra movement in the shooting phase....

Ramming can only be done and must be resolved during the MOVEMENT PHASE. You get no benefits of your Star Light Engines since they are used in the shooting phase.

This is incorrect as demonstrated at least half a dozen times already in this thread. Please quote the relevant section of the rules where it says that Ramming can only be performed in the movement phase, if you are so sure.

Kyrolon
04-07-2008, 05:07
I'm guessing by no weapon higher than S8 and no Wraith/D guns you also mean that you lack Haywire Hawks and Fire Dragons...not that the Hawks are Excellent, but they can still pen...

Correct. If you had wraithguard, D cannons, and Hawks in a 1500 pt list there isn't much else. I wasn't counting the fire dragons vs the 'Lith as it ignores the melta rule. I was forgeting the new +1 on the glance chart for being AP 1. They will still work, and show up in a balanced army a lot more often than the other choices.

It's not so much a problem if you tool the list apropriately, but in a balanced list I don't think you'd have more than one or two units capable of hurting a lith. (disregarding fire dragons). By desperate situation I meant that the opponent had taken out said units already.

With the fire dragons added back in, it looks a lot better, so not as hard as I feared. In a close run, bloody game though, I can still see it coming down to ramming. Of course if transports can contest now too you can at least keep the opponent from claiming without the desperation ram.

Dan

graveaccomplice
04-07-2008, 05:58
The Rhino is a tank.



Got me on that one. But I'd still have to ask; if only tanks can do it, why add the +1 Str note for being a tank. Our current group reads it as any vehicle can ram, but tanks get a bonus for doing so. Makes vypers and land speeders rather nasty threats.

fengor
04-07-2008, 07:12
the +1 is there because the rammer and the rammed vehicle get a hit. but a non tank isnt as sturdy as a tank. hence the +1S for the tank

Ragewind
04-07-2008, 07:16
Ok, let me see if I grasp this, assuming that the Str of the hit is capped at 10 then any Eldar tank can scrap out a Str 10 hit maxium.

If (for the sake of argument) a holofalcon with spirit stones rammed a dred that was 24" away it would have Base str of 8 for distance, +1 for being a tank compared to a non-tank, + 2 for the two AV points above 10, maxing out to a Str 10 hit.

Makes sense.

Now comes the tricky part.

Assuming the dred is destroyed and the holofalcon is not incapacitated we need to settle on what option is still valid:

A) as the vehicle must move as fast as possible and the rules make it allowable for multiple rams in one turn would the vehicle then be able to burst ahead dealing another 12" worth of potential Str 10 damage, since str is capped at 10 and all movement for a turn is cumulative.

B) the vehicle ends after its initial move phase and if it's star engines bring it into contact with another vehicle or unit it now can not be death or gloried nor cause tank shock, nor ram effectively giving it a ghost movement where units watch it as it gracefully passes by overhead. "Ready that firearm, private! No, wait! Hold fire! Have you ever seen anything so lovely? We can't shoot at something that esthetically pleasing."

C) the vehicle's owner must ignore the word "turn" and replace it with the word "phase" and it's only hitting at a whopping str 6 because they can't add up distance from the prior phase despite it being in the same turn. However, it still has the option of doing a tank shock or ram. Obviously the game designers chose the wrong word.

D) The vehicle may do nothing. However, if it is painted well then it is allowed to look pretty, especially if the burning reckage of the dred casts a beautiful shimmering glow on the hull of the tank.


Feel free to let me know if I missed an option or if I got my 40k RAMMING MATHS wrong.


HAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh man that was good, btw its A :skull:

I'm not saying that this is a end all attack vs everything, but its a almost guaranteed kill turn 1, and not to mention if your tank blows up you can now shoot/assault turn 1. Makes for some nice strategy's. I don't have the rulebook with me so I don't know if units forced out of a vehicle can still a assault, but if they can....

Sons of Russ
04-07-2008, 07:35
common sense says to me if I've already gone kamikaze and decided to bash my tank into another tank, and i have some super special screamin' jet engines, i'm gonna open those engines up and scream across the field towards that poor soul as fast as that tank will take me, and i'm going to make sure i do some damage.

If a kamikaze pilot has a way to do more damage to its target, wouldn't it? Or would it check the manual before deciding?

Did you use your Holofield 2d6 roll for the hit you took back?

Kulgur
04-07-2008, 08:11
the +1 is there because the rammer and the rammed vehicle get a hit. but a non tank isnt as sturdy as a tank. hence the +1S for the tank

There's also vehicles that can tank shock while not being tanks, mainly thinking of Dark Eldar raiders and Ork trukks

Lorieth
04-07-2008, 09:25
If a Wave Serpent rams a Land Raider, it will get hit harder then it hit the Land Raider. If a Wave Serpent went flat out and moved say 21" then it would hit the LR for (7+2+1) and get hit for (7+4+1).

Unless ramming is capped at S10, as most people think, in which case both Serpent and Raider get the same hit.

If a transport is rammed and destroyed, do any passengers immediately get tank-shocked?


If the Holofield "roll 2 use lowest" rule applies to Eldar ramming we're going to have a big problem. If they stay true to the old GW FAQ style we know and loathe it won't even get mentioned.

I don't see how holofields wouldn't apply to ramming, surely it doesn't need to be put in a FAQ that you can use them? It specifically says whenever you roll on the damage chart. Changing how they work shouldn't be done in a FAQ, it should need a new codex.

Lax
04-07-2008, 09:33
If a transport is rammed and destroyed, do any passengers immediately get tank-shocked?
Passengers are pinned and disembarked, that's all.
Sadly we're not doing a Carmageddon thingy :p

Copella
04-07-2008, 09:55
I'm not saying that this is a end all attack vs everything, but its a almost guaranteed kill turn 1, and not to mention if your tank blows up you can now shoot/assault turn 1. Makes for some nice strategy's. I don't have the rulebook with me so I don't know if units forced out of a vehicle can still a assault, but if they can....

Negative on the shooting or assault. You would of passed the shooting phase using star engines, and your passengers would be forced out with a consolidation move. You wouldn't be able to disembark any vehicle that moves flat out even if it did survive.

IJW
04-07-2008, 11:29
As you can not roll a Destroyed Result against Trukks, I am not sure how this rule will interact with them.
You certainly CAN roll a Destroyed result against a Trukk - it's just that it doesn't have the usual effect.

To paraphrase, if the Trukk suffers from X or Y damage result, then do Z.

Drek
04-07-2008, 11:40
Passengers are pinned and disembarked, that's all.
Sadly we're not doing a Carmageddon thingy :p

Actually, passengers would roll for pinning when they disembark.

Supremearchmarshal
04-07-2008, 13:10
This is incorrect as demonstrated at least half a dozen times already in this thread. Please quote the relevant section of the rules where it says that Ramming can only be performed in the movement phase, if you are so sure.

Well I'm not 100% sure, but:


When moving a tank, the player can declare that the
vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack
instead of moving normally.


Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is
executed the same way...

IMO imply that it's done in the movement phase.

Hulkster
04-07-2008, 13:13
unfortunatly imply is not enough for RAW lovers

I agree and I RAI that it should not be allowed, but tecnically it is not against the rules so he can do it.

Danny Internet
04-07-2008, 14:00
Well I'm not 100% sure, but:





IMO imply that it's done in the movement phase.

I don't see "movement phase" anywhere in the section you quoted. Movement is not restricted to the movement phase, with Star Engines being both a prime and relevant example of this. While you may think it implies this, it doesn't actually say it.


unfortunatly imply is not enough for RAW lovers

I agree and I RAI that it should not be allowed, but tecnically it is not against the rules so he can do it.

I disagree based on a RAI interpretation. The whole point of Star Engines is to make already fast vehicles move even faster. Ramming is all about slamming into an opposing vehicle as fast as you can to cause maximum damage. To me it seems like this is the perfect role for Star Engines.

-Prime-
04-07-2008, 14:14
I can see both sides of the argument, and I feel it is against RAI, but does fit RAW. :wtf: Definitely something to discuss with your opponent before the game. I am interested to see the FAQ.



I disagree based on a RAI interpretation. The whole point of Star Engines is to make already fast vehicles move even faster. Ramming is all about slamming into an opposing vehicle as fast as you can to cause maximum damage. To me it seems like this is the perfect role for Star Engines.

I disagree with this. This reason for RAI goes against the RAI for star engines. They are intended to move faster, but only for redeployment, not ramming. Eldar would NEVER waste their precious resources that way. Dark Elder would I am sure, but not standard Eldar.
Just my $0.02

Tebrey
04-07-2008, 14:29
By RAW as long as the Eldar tank did not change direction from the original tank shock/ram it would be legal. Note that this only works if the Eldar tank destroys (explodes) the tank it rams. It would also have to make a dangerous terrain test when it goes through the crater of the tank it hit.

Since it doesn't say who rolls for damage. If it is your turn and you are ramming, you roll for both yours and thiers it would seem. Holofields would then not apply. Using RAW Holofields only apply when the opponant rolls for damage against your vehicle.

The chance of you not being immobilized (and destroyed) or stunned (unable to use star engines) is slight, but possible. You would have to declare before the tank moved that you were moving flat out and using star engines in the shooting phase.


I agree it is against RAI. If you asked a designer, they would probably say that they never thought any Eldar player would do it since it is against the Eldar way of life. No Eldar would throw away their life and soul to destroy a tank...

Pacific
04-07-2008, 14:33
Am I the only person that thinks this is all a little bit against the spirit of the game?

Setting up grav-tanks to use as guided missiles just seems a bit wrong to me.

Tebrey
04-07-2008, 14:36
I agree it is against the spirit of the game, but it may be legal.

I hate beard cheese.

USER1
04-07-2008, 14:56
why are people talkin such crap? if a dreadnaught is about to murder 20 guardians and one guardian in a serpent can ram it to death to save them there is no "eldar way" which would deter him.

Also it is in no way cheesey or unrealistic. Star engines make them go faster, if they were ramming why would they not go at full speed?

Danny Internet
04-07-2008, 15:02
I disagree with this. This reason for RAI goes against the RAI for star engines. They are intended to move faster, but only for redeployment, not ramming. Eldar would NEVER waste their precious resources that way. Dark Elder would I am sure, but not standard Eldar.
Just my $0.02

You're confusing a RAI argument with a fluff argument. With regards to the rules, the fact that the Star Engines are an Eldar vehicle upgrade as opposed to an Ork vehicle upgrade or any other race is completely and totally irrelevant.

Hulkster
04-07-2008, 15:25
I always thought Star Engines were designed to help Eldar Vehicles get out of the way of danger and redeploy.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

neophryte
04-07-2008, 16:01
I will wait to get the book. I am curious if, in the section on Movement in the rulebook, there is something that states that all normal movement is done during the movement phase, or something like that. I haven't seen the movement section of the book quoted yet.

-Prime-
04-07-2008, 16:08
You're confusing a RAI argument with a fluff argument.

Except the fluff dictates the intention of the rules. ;) First the designers create the armies ideals, motivations, and style. Then the rules.

If you wanted to do it in a game, I would let you ram to your hearts content. More than likely your going to kill your skimmer as well by bouncing it off my tanks. :cool:
Upside is Holofield would be useless (unless I used a death or glory) for you since RAW states that when the opponent rolls on the chart they must roll 2d6 and pick the lowest. Since I did not damage the floating missile I don't roll on the chart, the player who's turn it is would and by raw be allowed only one die. Upside, if you ram my Falcon I would still get the 2d6 since you, my opponent, would be rolling them. :D
I am a for fun player and play in the spirit of the game, but at tourneys or pick up games when faced with a WAAC player, I can play that style as well. I just don't enjoy it.

Danny Internet
04-07-2008, 16:15
I always thought Star Engines were designed to help Eldar Vehicles get out of the way of danger and redeploy.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

And here I thought they were simply designed to give them 12" of extra movement in the Shooting Phase. If each army was only intended to be played a certain way (according to background fluff or whatever else) then playing this game would become incredibly boring and formulaic.

Ragewind
04-07-2008, 16:15
Actually deciding to roll damage on your own tank is something you decide with your opponent, typically if you roll for their damage and they roll for yours, either way Holo-Fields will still work from a ram hit. Saying otherwise is on the level of saying Termies don't have terminator armor.

This is true the disembarked units only suffer a pinning test and most Eldar units have great leadership so its not a problem. Its especially nice if you have something thats fearless like Wraithguard.

You can also still shoot/assault with them as after you activate the tank and do whatever it is you want with it, you can then activate the forcefully disembarked units and do whatever, the Swordwind army just got A LOT better as they use tons of Aspect warriors typically in Wave Serpents. The entire army can be on you turn 1.../shudder

All in all I would say DE is a bit more scary what with their Incubi and Tooled out Archon, not to mention squads with Sybarite Agonizers all over the place, who even needs a Webway portal anymore?

Danny Internet
04-07-2008, 16:34
Except the fluff dictates the intention of the rules. ;) First the designers create the armies ideals, motivations, and style. Then the rules.

If you wanted to do it in a game, I would let you ram to your hearts content. More than likely your going to kill your skimmer as well by bouncing it off my tanks. :cool:
Upside is Holofield would be useless (unless I used a death or glory) for you since RAW states that when the opponent rolls on the chart they must roll 2d6 and pick the lowest. Since I did not damage the floating missile I don't roll on the chart, the player who's turn it is would and by raw be allowed only one die. Upside, if you ram my Falcon I would still get the 2d6 since you, my opponent, would be rolling them. :D
I am a for fun player and play in the spirit of the game, but at tourneys or pick up games when faced with a WAAC player, I can play that style as well. I just don't enjoy it.

Not all rules are dictated by fluff--if they were then this game would be a hugely unbalanced mess. And furthermore, there are plenty of RAI arguments that do not need to make any reference to background fluff (such as Space Marine Terminators wearing Terminator Armor).

Once you start using fluff to justify assumptions about the intent of the game developers then you start down a very slippery slope. Maybe the Ramming rule allows for Eldar to use Star Engines to ram, but they really meant to write a qualifier disallowing this. And while the rules allow blast and ordnance weapons to scatter on to friendly troops, perhaps Eldar shouldn't be allowed to fire these weapons anywhere within maximum scatter distance of their own men because they wouldn't want to risk killing their precious and limited forces. These are not really examples of interpreting the rules as much as they are creating house rules based solely on 40k background material.

Dach
04-07-2008, 18:27
Ragewind do you actually try to read all the rulebook or just read the part that deem interesting for you're own self?! :rolleyes:

Please go re-read the part with transport vehicle.

Troop that disembark after a vehicle movement of more than 12" cannot shoot.

Any troop that moved with a vehicle cannot assault after disembarking!
(Except Open-top)

For Fast vehicle that moved a flatout speed or will (which mean more than 12") you cannot embark or disembark.

(I found only one thing wrong in the pdf, it doesn't state anywhere about fast open-top vehicle that moved flatout and destroyed result of disembarking.)

Common sense would say these troop still can't assault but it's not writed anywhere. (at least in the pdf)

40kdhs
04-07-2008, 18:28
Ramming is fun.

Fideru
04-07-2008, 21:16
Ramming is fun.

Completely agreed. I want to try it out with my Leman Russes.

AngryAngel
04-07-2008, 21:26
All I know is when I get around to ramming. I'm going to ram everything. In fact in our shop we house ruled the ramming to call it porkchopping..and I'm going to name one of my landraiders the porkchop express. Whenever it can porkchop a vehicle, it will, no questions and no hesitations. Let the porkchopping begin.

vartemis
04-07-2008, 22:21
All I know is when I get around to ramming. I'm going to ram everything. In fact in our shop we house ruled the ramming to call it porkchopping..and I'm going to name one of my landraiders the porkchop express. Whenever it can porkchop a vehicle, it will, no questions and no hesitations. Let the porkchopping begin.

Shall you call it the "shake and bake" manuever?

j

Royal Tiger
04-07-2008, 22:31
Shall you call it the "shake and bake" manuever?

j
no no no, call it
THE PICARD MANEUVER!!!
just cus you can

Lax
04-07-2008, 22:32
I thought on a ramming use that can be funky :)
Imagine a unit in a bunker, you don't need to get your lazy flamer to get there...
Just pop it with a tank at full speed, and poor gently of steel sauce ^^!

Yeah, again, what would be the use of bunkers if an eldar transport can break 2-3 a turn :p

Gensuke626
05-07-2008, 00:07
I doubt that the Eldar player can roll enough vehicle explodes results to make ramming a real bunker busting threat. Now the Ork Battle Wagon with it's Deff Rolla...

AngryAngel
05-07-2008, 00:08
Shall you call it the "shake and bake" manuever?

j

I think I'll call it shake and bake if 2 vehicles go for one pork chop. You know when just one won't do.

Copella
05-07-2008, 03:49
"pork chop express" oh man ... i'm having flash backs to the movie "Big Trouble in Little China" That was the name of Kurt Russell's truck.

Yeah, ramming will be interesting. We'll prolly see an FAQ on it after a week or two. Someone somewhere will find a way to horribly abuse it somehow.

Ragewind
05-07-2008, 05:34
Ragewind do you actually try to read all the rulebook or just read the part that deem interesting for you're own self?! :rolleyes:

Please go re-read the part with transport vehicle.

Troop that disembark after a vehicle movement of more than 12" cannot shoot.

Any troop that moved with a vehicle cannot assault after disembarking!
(Except Open-top)

For Fast vehicle that moved a flatout speed or will (which mean more than 12") you cannot embark or disembark.

(I found only one thing wrong in the pdf, it doesn't state anywhere about fast open-top vehicle that moved flatout and destroyed result of disembarking.)

Common sense would say these troop still can't assault but it's not writed anywhere. (at least in the pdf)


Actually from what I read today while at GW was that troops who are forced to disembark count as moving for shooting purposes, so no heavy weapons but Assault and Rapid Fire are okay. Normally you cannot disembark after moving so far but due to the ram you have a decent chance of blowing up the tank allowing you to get some shots off. The only time you cannot shoot is if you do a emergency disembark which states that the models may not do ANYTHING.

Something interesting I read about the assaulting after disembarking. Now I am about to go all Rules Lawyer on you guys, but I simply call it like I see it.

1)If a unit is forced to disembark after the tank moves it cannot assault except for Open topped.
2) Now when someone rolls a 5 on the damage chart and makes the vehicle "Wrecked" it states the units for forced to Disembark :eek:
3) When reading the disembark rules it says what #1 says.
4) However Rolling a 6 for "Vehicle Explodes" says Place the Models :evilgrin:
5) last I checked "Place the Models" is not "Disembark" so assuming someone rolled a "6" for the damage then your models will be able to assault from the non-existent vehicle assuming they make their pinning test. :skull:

Its like playing MTG all over again, due to the importance of wording.

This is a excellent example of RAW vs RAI, I can pretty much tell that the words WANT to say "disembark" but they say something else, and I want to go by what they say....which makes me a bad person /cry

Koryphaus
05-07-2008, 05:53
no no no, call it
THE PICARD MANEUVER!!!
just cus you can

But the Picard Maneuver never involved ramming the Ferengi.. :( Or whatever is being rammed in our case :D.

Miggidy Mack
05-07-2008, 06:21
ORKISH DEMOLISHUN DARBY!!!!

Sorry, this is going to happen and I'm going to be the awesomesauce that makes it happen.

Royal Tiger
05-07-2008, 10:52
But the Picard Maneuver never involved ramming the Ferengi.. :( Or whatever is being rammed in our case :D.
who cares, thats merely technicalities :p

(off topic the Picard Maneuver was also what they called it when you see the cast pull down the waist line on there tops, its just Patrick would do it with more flair and drama)

Copella
05-07-2008, 14:35
Actually from what I read today while at GW was that troops who are forced to disembark count as moving for shooting purposes, so no heavy weapons but Assault and Rapid Fire are okay. Normally you cannot disembark after moving so far but due to the ram you have a decent chance of blowing up the tank allowing you to get some shots off. The only time you cannot shoot is if you do a emergency disembark which states that the models may not do ANYTHING.

Something interesting I read about the assaulting after disembarking. Now I am about to go all Rules Lawyer on you guys, but I simply call it like I see it.

1)If a unit is forced to disembark after the tank moves it cannot assault except for Open topped.
2) Now when someone rolls a 5 on the damage chart and makes the vehicle "Wrecked" it states the units for forced to Disembark :eek:
3) When reading the disembark rules it says what #1 says.
4) However Rolling a 6 for "Vehicle Explodes" says Place the Models :evilgrin:
5) last I checked "Place the Models" is not "Disembark" so assuming someone rolled a "6" for the damage then your models will be able to assault from the non-existent vehicle assuming they make their pinning test. :skull:

Its like playing MTG all over again, due to the importance of wording.

This is a excellent example of RAW vs RAI, I can pretty much tell that the words WANT to say "disembark" but they say something else, and I want to go by what they say....which makes me a bad person /cry

So, having your vehicle blowing up isn't an emergency disembark?
At least you seem to understand how stupid and covered with cheese dip a tactic like that would be.

Danny Internet
05-07-2008, 15:01
Emergency disembarkation only applies to the specific situation when you are forced to disembark (such as when your vehicle is destroyed) and either enemies or impassible terrain blocks your access points, preventing your models from disembarking normally.

Ragewind
06-07-2008, 04:58
So, having your vehicle blowing up isn't an emergency disembark?
At least you seem to understand how stupid and covered with cheese dip a tactic like that would be.

Yes but that isn't going to prevent me from doing it, I mean it seems clear cut.

General Squeek Squeek
06-07-2008, 07:01
wow, Ragewind I'd bet no one in at you local GW probably enjoys playing you.

Ixe
06-07-2008, 07:56
Yes but that isn't going to prevent me from doing it, I mean it seems clear cut.

I wouldn't call anything clear cut until you read the book yourself. It's easy to pick out language from one page, and miss another rule somewhere else that clarifies it.

That said, I don't think it matters one way or the other. If you can do something to your opponent, they can do it to you. And if one of your main strategies involves destroying your own expensive skimmer tanks, and letting all your guys inside take wounds, then more power to you...

Huw_Dawson
06-07-2008, 08:15
But the Picard Maneuver never involved ramming the Ferengi.. :( Or whatever is being rammed in our case :D.

It should be called the Janeway Maneuver, seeing as how in one late episode (to do with these people mucking about with Time) she rams the Voyager into the enemy's ship, destroying both.

- Huw

TrooperTino
06-07-2008, 12:17
1; ramming max Str 10... show me a vehicle with less than 10 armour... iff max str 10, why is there a table with modifiers like +1str for a tank, 3" of movement... etc etc... not a single vehicle in W40k would need such modifiers because they ALL have armour 10 (even at the rear armour) and would get a ramming Str10...

its my opinion that the Str with a ramm-atack can get over 10, but I can't find any rules about it

2; Eldar Holofields: Iff the Eldar player makes a ramm atack and the driver of the ramming, lets say a serpent, vehicle tries to hit the enemy vehicle with all his driving skills... how is the holofield supposed to keep the serpent from harm?
Iff otherwise the eldar player's serpent gets rammed by the enemy, the holofield should work because the enemy driver can't see the serpent very well (holofield), and possibly misses the serpent... BUT as a grav vehicle the serpent allready gets his 4+ Inv save in this case (the special rule iff skimmers get rammed)...

3; Star engines...
difficult :)

I would say... iff the eldar player decides to ramm, he has to move as fast as he can in a straight line...
means to me: the serpent decides to ramm, moves his max distance (24"), and iff he manages to destroy the targetet vehicle, HAS TO move the extra 12" for his star engines in the shooting phase! And he has to do this extra movement IN A STRAIGHT LINE in the direction he was allready going in movement phase...
To avoid terrain or the table edge with this straight 36" movement is very difficult so I won't see this happening often.

BUT the image of this so very fragile ond lightweight Eldar 'tanks', relying on speed and manoverability more than on armour, destroying hardcore-armoured-Front14-Tanks by ramming them... it just is sooooo wrong to me^^

excuse me for bad spelling or grammar

Angerforge
06-07-2008, 12:28
1; ramming max Str 10... show me a vehicle with less than 10 armour... iff max str 10, why is there a table with modifiers like +1str for a tank, 3" of movement... etc etc... not a single vehicle in W40k would need such modifiers because they ALL have armour 10 (even at the rear armour) and would get a ramming Str10...


Sry but its not the armor of the vehicle but instead 1 strength for each point over 10. so a str10 hit isnt as normal as you think.

TrooperTino
06-07-2008, 12:32
ups should read the rules a bit more... thx for enlighting me

*feeling very stupid now*

but what about the star engines? I am curently discussing this with an eldar opponent and we are trying to create a good houserule... what do you think about this version?

Danny Internet
06-07-2008, 14:25
I would agree that any vehicle equipped with Star Engines will be forced to engage them if they perform a Ramming move in either the Movement Phase or the Shooting Phase. Just as the Ramming rules do not specify which phase the ramming move must take place in, they also do not specify which phase the player must move their maximum distance in. Double-edged sword.

Ragewind
06-07-2008, 15:09
I would agree that any vehicle equipped with Star Engines will be forced to engage them if they perform a Ramming move in either the Movement Phase or the Shooting Phase. Just as the Ramming rules do not specify which phase the ramming move must take place in, they also do not specify which phase the player must move their maximum distance in. Double-edged sword.

Well as far as I can tell I have fulfilled my requirement to move at my maximum speed in a straight line by moving my 24 inches in the movement phase(which is the maximum move I can do). Assuming I want to Ram again in the Shooting phase I would have to move my max 12 inches in a straight line however this can be in another direction. Once I "paid the price" so to speak I can do whatever I want with my second optional move.

Incidentally I presented my opinion on the roll of 5 and 6 to some people at my GW store and 9/10's of them actually got angry BUT concluded that it was correct(at least until they FAq/Errata it). As a previous poster mentioned if I can do it, so can they. On of the Blood Angel players was especially happy about it.

Also Trooper Tino- Regardless of whether it makes sense, the Holo-Fields work against all damage rolled.

Also someone mentioned about me destroying my "expensive Tank" by ramming? Well yesterday I blew up a land raider while killing my own tank, seems like a good trade off eh? however the Termie Assault squad then had to walk after that, and they moved 6 inches before I shot the crap out of them with Path Finders and Fire Prisims. I traded a 115 point tank for like 400+ worth of points. Seems like a fair trade to me.

Danny Internet
06-07-2008, 15:14
Can't have your cake and eat it too. If you can move more (which you can, due to your Star Engines), then you must. It doesn't say you must move your maximum speed in the Movement Phase. If you agree that the distance provided by using Star Engines in indeed "movement" then it's hard to say you aren't required to use that movement, given the wording.

Ragewind
06-07-2008, 15:20
If you agree that the distance provided by using Star Engines in indeed "movement" then it's hard to say you aren't required to use that movement, given the wording.

Its of course moving, the tank moved didn't it? However considering the star Engines are not able to be activated when I declare my first Ram they would not be apart of the required movement. After my first Ram ends and we move onto the next phase I then declare I will use my Star engines , pick a new heading, and go. Now if the Star Engines just added onto the first Ram move or were activated in the movement phase then yes, I would have to zoom 36 in a straight line.

Danny Internet
06-07-2008, 15:26
However considering the star Engines are not able to be activated when I declare my first Ram they would not be apart of the required movement

One declares Ramming before actually moving as well. By your logic any movement isn't required because it is done after declaration. That doesn't make sense.

All it says is that you MUST move your maximum distance. The fact that using Star Engines is in a different phase makes no difference, it is still movement. The fact that using Star Engines is optional also makes no difference as the rule overrides this by saying you must move.

Ragewind
06-07-2008, 15:29
One declares Ramming before actually moving as well. By your logic any movement isn't required because it is done after declaration. That doesn't make sense.

All it says is that you MUST move your maximum distance. The fact that using Star Engines is in a different phase makes no difference, it is still movement. The fact that using Star Engines is optional also makes no difference as the rule overrides this by saying you must move.

Sure but you seem to have forgotten that at the start of my movement , when I declare my Ram, I can >ONLY< move 24 inches. When I finishe moving the 24 inches my Ram ends, regardless of whether I hit something or not doesn't matter. Now after my Ram ends later on I then have another chance to move which is not restricted by the first Ram as it has already ended. Allowing me to do whatever, If I feel like it I can do Another Ram as the damage adds up or I can just zoom off to whever I feel like.

I am not saying the Phases when the movement take place matter , Shooting,Movement,Assault, Start, End of turn. It doesn't matter as long as the second movement is done seperatly from the original move. I simply use those words to help me convey my meaning. If it was added on there would be no contest or if the rule itself said I had to consider all additional forms of movement such as a Star Engine, then it would indeed add on. I have fuffiled the rules requirements by moving my Maximum distance (which is 24 inches) after that I can do whatever I want.

KeeganKatastrofee
06-07-2008, 15:34
Ok, you can slap my face and call me Mary if armor 10 vehicles are just as effective for ramming as armor 12...

EDIT: Ok, while I was typing that, a bunch of people smacked that idea down. Hooray, the world is still sane :D

SLAP MY FACE AND CALL ME MARY

wow....that's a little off topic on my part, sorry
but that's ******* hillarious



anyways
yah...i was all jazzed up over star engines and ramming
but, alas, it doesn't work
=[[


we still have vipers
lol

Ragewind
06-07-2008, 15:36
anyways
yah...i was all jazzed up over star engines and ramming
but, alas, it doesn't work
=[[


What? Why doesn't it work?

Fabius
06-07-2008, 16:11
Sure but you seem to have forgotten that at the start of my movement , when I declare my Ram, I can >ONLY< move 24 inches. When I finishe moving the 24 inches my Ram ends, regardless of whether I hit something or not doesn't matter. Now after my Ram ends later on I then have another chance to move which is not restricted by the first Ram as it has already ended. Allowing me to do whatever, If I feel like it I can do Another Ram as the damage adds up or I can just zoom off to whever I feel like.

I am not saying the Phases when the movement take place matter , Shooting,Movement,Assault, Start, End of turn. It doesn't matter as long as the second movement is done seperatly from the original move. I simply use those words to help me convey my meaning. If it was added on there would be no contest or if the rule itself said I had to consider all additional forms of movement such as a Star Engine, then it would indeed add on. I have fuffiled the rules requirements by moving my Maximum distance (which is 24 inches) after that I can do whatever I want.

Danny Internet is of course right, if you accept "movement" to be something that can be split into different phases, then you have no right to declare "maximum distance" to apply to the movement phase only. It never says that you only have to move your maximum distance during the movement phase.

Ragewind
06-07-2008, 16:19
Danny Internet is of course right, if you accept "movement" to be something that can be split into different phases, then you have no right to declare "maximum distance" to apply to the movement phase only. It never says that you only have to move your maximum distance during the movement phase.

However the second "Movement" doesn't exist when you declare the Ram, you cannot use something that is not there.
There is also the fact that the Eldar (to my knowledge) is the only army that gets a second move sometime after the first, not including the crazy stuff from Ramshackle. All other armies actually increase their standerd movement, such as on a Road or in the case of BA's the Overcharged Engines.
Since this is the case would it not be worded differently to affirm your stance? Or are we not to see that they only talk about the first (and typically) only movement done by 99% of the existing army's.

TrooperTino
06-07-2008, 16:22
Ok Ok iff someone wants to see the rules only in a way that benefits his army...

We played with the rule I mentioned above... but... not a single vehicle tried to ram :) what a waste of time :)

to Ragewind: its not only about "it does not say it exactly this way"... its a bit about realism as well... (at least for me)

AND you want to benefit from the ramming rule as much as u can... now theres a good way to do it so that both sides are happy... u get your ramming with starengines, but its still "noooo I want to ramm both times in one round AND I want to ramm both times in different directions"

earlier someone argued starengines are not "normal" movement and so can't be used to ramm... people say "nooooo I want to use them: they are normal movement and can be used to ramm"
now you say they are NOT normal movement (means starengines move isn't included in the sentence "has to move its max movemant to ramm in a straight line") and so you can decide to include them in your ramm-atack or let them out... just like u wish...

perhaps you read the rulebook one more time, there could be a way to even SHOOT after ramming?!

Just play the game and have fun! its not all about winning!

Fabius
06-07-2008, 16:26
However the second "Movement" doesn't exist when you declare the Ram, you cannot use something that is not there.
There is also the fact that the Eldar (to my knowledge) is the only army that gets a second move sometime after the first, not including the crazy stuff from Ramshackle. All other armies actually increase their standerd movement, such as on a Road or in the case of BA's the Overcharged Engines.
Since this is the case would it not be worded differently to affirm your stance? Or are we not to see that they only talk about the first (and typically) only movement done by 99% of the existing army's.

It doesn't matter if it "exists" or not. If you want to count it as movement (which it undoubtly is) you have to use it. As you've already said, movement doesn't end in the movement phase. I think this whole debate is the consequence of an oversight in the rulebook. We'll get an errata or something similar I assume, not that I'd find it that game breaking.

Ragewind
06-07-2008, 16:30
Ok Ok iff someone wants to see the rules only in a way that benefits his army...

We played with the rule I mentioned above... but... not a single vehicle tried to ram :) what a waste of time :)

to Ragewind: its not only about "it does not say it exactly this way"... its a bit about realism as well... (at least for me)

AND you want to benefit from the ramming rule as much as u can... now theres a good way to do it so that both sides are happy... u get your ramming with starengines, but its still "noooo I want to ramm both times in one round AND I want to ramm both times in different directions"

earlier someone argued starengines are not "normal" movement and so can't be used to ramm... people say "nooooo I want to use them: they are normal movement and can be used to ramm"
now you say they are NOT normal movement (means starengines move isn't included in the sentence "has to move its max movemant to ramm in a straight line") and so you can decide to include them in your ramm-atack or let them out... just like u wish...

perhaps you read the rulebook one more time, there could be a way to even SHOOT after ramming?!

Just play the game and have fun! its not all about winning!

Well first off I recall someone mentioning something about not using Fluff to create Houserules.

Secondly I am not saying I "want" to do this, I am saying you CAN do this with the way the rules are. The only part of the debate is whether or not people consider the 24 inches to be the max full movement possible at one time, which seems clear to me, but not to others. Which is fine this is why the world is fun because not everyone is the same.

Then there are others who don't want people to Ram twice so they do their best to come up with a counter argument. I don't just play Eldar I play Necrons and Dark Eldar, both play completely different from Eldar and if I fought a Eldar player with my Necrons I am not going to begrudge him on something his army can do and mine can't.

TrooperTino
06-07-2008, 16:32
There is also the fact that the Eldar (to my knowledge) is the only army that gets a second move sometime after the first, not including the crazy stuff from Ramshackle. All other armies actually increase their standerd movement, such as on a Road or in the case of BA's the Overcharged Engines.
Since this is the case would it not be worded differently to affirm your stance? Or are we not to see that they only talk about the first (and typically) only movement done by 99% of the existing army's.

now 100% of W40k armys can move in the shooting phase... (running) I hope GW clears iff this is 'normal' movement.



Then there are others who don't want people to Ram twice so they do their best to come up with a counter argument.
You can ramm twice (even a third or fourth time)... you just have to do it "in a straight line"

Ragewind
06-07-2008, 16:34
It doesn't matter if it "exists" or not. If you want to count it as movement (which it undoubtly is) you have to use it. As you've already said, movement doesn't end in the movement phase. I think this whole debate is the consequence of an oversight in the rulebook. We'll get an errata or something similar I assume, not that I'd find it that game breaking.

I actually said the +1 damage for moving 3 inches does not go away until the end of the turn, the movement does indeed "end" in the movement phase unless you somehow movement beyond the norm.

Incidentally since the damage calculation only takes into consideration >Distance Moved< you could move say... in a "S" pattern during the movement phase and THEN ram in the Shooting phase (Via Star Engines) still calculating the ram damage as distance moved in the >TURN<.

This would prevent you from running yourself off the table edge and being able to tank shock just about his entire army. Not bad at all

Ragewind
06-07-2008, 16:35
now 100% of W40k armys can move in the shooting phase... (running) I hope GW clears iff this is 'normal' movement.

You are aware we are talking about Vehicle Movement right? Last I check Vehicles cannot "Run"

TrooperTino
06-07-2008, 16:46
You are aware we are talking about Vehicle Movement right? Last I check Vehicles cannot "Run"

ok ok to clear this up... you said 99% of all army can't move during shooting phase. Allready said they ALL can now. What I meant with this: its time for GW to define 'normal' movemant... is it ONLY during movement phase? is running/starengine/overcharged engine a special 'move'? Is it a 'move' at all or a special ability resulting in the fact that the modell is now at another place as before using its 'special ability'?

I think the problem (and reason we won't come to an agreement here) is that this was never classified

Fabius
06-07-2008, 16:47
I actually said the +1 damage for moving 3 inches does not go away until the end of the turn, the movement does indeed "end" in the movement phase unless you somehow movement beyond the norm.

Incidentally since the damage calculation only takes into consideration >Distance Moved< you could move say... in a "S" pattern during the movement phase and THEN ram in the Shooting phase (Via Star Engines) still calculating the ram damage as distance moved in the >TURN<.

This would prevent you from running yourself off the table edge and being able to tank shock just about his entire army. Not bad at all

And you are of course performing a movement beyond the norm, since you are moving in the shooting phase. If you're performing a ram in the shooting phase, you move, right? But if it is beyond the norm you would not be allowed to ram anyway. You can't have both...

I don't know the wording for the second one, but if the things quoted here are correct, you could.

totgeboren
06-07-2008, 17:07
The way I see it, it boils to either

1: A falcon with a starengine that rams must move first 24" in a straight line, and then another 12" in the shooting phase. For the purpose of deciding the strength of the attack, it counts the distance from its starting position to the enemy vehicle, up to 36" (ALL the falcons move is counted, regardless of what phase it was done in, but at the same time, ALL the vehicles movement must be used, and in one straight line, regardless of what phase they occur in.)

2: A Falcon that rams in the movement phase counts as moving 24" using the normal rules.
In the shooting phase, it can use its starengines to initiate a new ram move in any direction it wants. The strengh is calculated from the position it was in when the ram move was declared (at best 12").

I mean, you cant have your cake and eat it. Thats just reading what you want to read.
It says you have to move your maximum distance until you stop, and you must move in a straight line. Either your maximum distance is 36", and then the entire move must be done in a straight line, or its 24" and then 12", where you can change direction once.

Ragewind
06-07-2008, 19:25
The way I see it, it boils to either

1: A falcon with a starengine that rams must move first 24" in a straight line, and then another 12" in the shooting phase. For the purpose of deciding the strength of the attack, it counts the distance from its starting position to the enemy vehicle, up to 36" (ALL the falcons move is counted, regardless of what phase it was done in, but at the same time, ALL the vehicles movement must be used, and in one straight line, regardless of what phase they occur in.)

2: A Falcon that rams in the movement phase counts as moving 24" using the normal rules.
In the shooting phase, it can use its starengines to initiate a new ram move in any direction it wants. The strengh is calculated from the position it was in when the ram move was declared (at best 12").

I mean, you cant have your cake and eat it. Thats just reading what you want to read.
It says you have to move your maximum distance until you stop, and you must move in a straight line. Either your maximum distance is 36", and then the entire move must be done in a straight line, or its 24" and then 12", where you can change direction once.

2: is Half right, as the Ram in the shooting phase calculates its damage based on the entire movement of the vehicle from the start point (in this case the 24 back from the movement phase). Assuming your target was 12 inches away when you activated your star engines then the move would be calculated as 36 inches worth of movement.

Konquest
06-07-2008, 19:47
Well, I'm glad to see that it works decently, But I really hope we won't end up with it being so abused that tank fights end up as bumper cars :rolleyes:

DarkAzrael169
06-07-2008, 19:56
Okay, so according to all of you... The fast skimmer or/and fast vehicle can't ram a tank, because its not a tank....

But can a tank ram a skimmer or/and fast vehicle?

If this is a yes, this is even more retarded then screening rules. It has to be both ways not one or the other.

Anointed_By_Filth
06-07-2008, 20:02
Non-tanks can ram, ramming is not a tank shock, it is a ram. The only perk of being a tank that rams is you get +1 to the damage calculation. Ork trukks can ram, they are vehicles, that is the only qualifier for the rule, you have to be a vehicle.

Tebrey
06-07-2008, 20:27
Non-tanks can ram, ramming is not a tank shock, it is a ram. The only perk of being a tank that rams is you get +1 to the damage calculation. Ork trukks can ram, they are vehicles, that is the only qualifier for the rule, you have to be a vehicle.

Wrong.

Ramming is a TANK SHOCK it says so right in the rules. Only TANKS can TANK shock.

What is hard about that?

Snorphel
06-07-2008, 20:37
Wrong.

Ramming is a TANK SHOCK it says so right in the rules. Only TANKS can TANK shock.

What is hard about that?


Indeed - only Ork trucks can have an upgrade that allows tank shocking - hence ramming.

Apart from that non-tank vehicles cannot ram (except DE raiders with a similar tank shock upgrade).

totgeboren
06-07-2008, 21:15
2: is Half right, as the Ram in the shooting phase calculates its damage based on the entire movement of the vehicle from the start point (in this case the 24 back from the movement phase). Assuming your target was 12 inches away when you activated your star engines then the move would be calculated as 36 inches worth of movement.

Yeah, but it says the entire movement must be in a straight line too. You are choosing to ignore the parts of the rules that you don't like.

It says you must move "at the highest speed it is capable of". And it also says that this move must be in a straight line.
So what is the highest speed a Falcon with starengines is capable of?

I would say 36", based on you arguments. Therefore it must move 24" in a straight line towards one enemy vehicle in the movement phase, and should it survive, it MUST move a further 12" in the shooting phase follow the same straight line.