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damz451
27-10-2005, 15:15
im not sure if they still do but i remember years ago (i mean like a decade ago) dark angels and space wolfs hated each other so much that they would never be allies.

there two stories i heard about it, one was that both forces were on a joint mission to take out some heretics, they were going to launch an attack and were preparing for it when the dark angels sent the ravenwing in a quick attack and won the battle and pride for themselfs.

the other being that the dark angels and wolfs were on a space hulk (or some other ship) and one of the sides abandoned the others termies to die or something like that.

any1 know of if any of these are correct or is it a different reason?

damz451
27-10-2005, 15:16
oh yeh the other one was that their primarchs had a fist fight or something

shadow hunter
27-10-2005, 15:22
The Primarchs had a fight after the DA had gone in and stole the win for a campaign they were jointly running. Also, I think the enemy leader had actually done something to directly annoy Leman Russ, so he had asked/stated that he wanted to take the heretic down.


During the fist fight, LEman Russ stopped and said something along the lines of 'OK, lets call it quits' but Lionel hits him anyway, and knocks him out.

Since then, its tradition for two 'champions' to fight each other when they meet.

shadow hunter
27-10-2005, 15:23
Also, I believe on their way back to Terra, Leman Russ (or Lionel) stops to attack a planet. This delays the return, meaning they miss out on helping out defend terra from Horus.

Sikkukkut
27-10-2005, 15:24
Your first and third versions are accurate. The two Primarchs didn't get on, having very different temperaments: Russ the hotheaded, moody barbarian and Jonson the chilly, reserved, cerebral strategist. They both found themselves besieging a fortress during the Great Crusade, Jonson because he had been assigned to it and had carefully scouted the defences and put a detailed plan together, and Russ because the enemy commander had insulted him and he just wanted to go in and bust some skulls.

Jonson ignored Russ' demands that he, Russ, take over and make the assault. He took the fortress using the Dark Angels and his own plan, and executed the enemy commander. Russ followed him in and knocked him down and the two fought for a full day through the fortress ruins. As they stopped for breath Russ, whose anger had been white-hot, suddenly saw the funny side and roared with laughter (which says a lot about Russ). At that point Russ considered the matter settled, but Jonson didn't: this oaf had ruined his victory celebrations and was now treating this whole humiliation as a joke (which says a lot about Jonson). So Jonson decked Russ in return, which infuriated Russ all over again, and the resentment between them festered after that.

There are all sorts of other incidents, arguments and embellishments, but that's where it all started.

Gavmo
27-10-2005, 15:24
It was the first story. Both the SW's and the DA's were fighting some place, and El'Johnson saw that they were wasting lives by continuing to fight the way they were. So he went ahead and won the day. Russ saw it as the El'Johnson stealing his glory and honour, and he got upset.
When they confronted each other a little while later, they had a bit of a biff. I think it went on for about 3 days. At the end, Russ saw the futility of what they were fighting over and realised how funny it was. So he started laughing. El'Johnson didnt think it was funny so he punched Russ out. He and his boys then left while Russ was still unconsious. Russ woke up and was not happy.
They've disliked each other ever since.

shadow hunter
27-10-2005, 15:26
^ said it better than me :p

Sai-Lauren
27-10-2005, 15:28
It's not a hatred, it's more an acrimonious rivalry.

The first story is the closest - basically, during the Great Crusade, Russ and Johnson were laying seige to a fortress, when the enemy leader insulted Russ - something like lapdog of the emperor, he'd make Russ his pet and so on IIRC. Russ took it personally, and demanded to lead the assault - mentioning various activities like eating the enemy leaders heart and that kind of thing ;).
Johnson assaulted while Russ was otherwise occupied, and though the Wolves joined the battle and ripped through them, Johnson slew the leader before Russ could get to him to do it himself - so Russ attacked Johnson instead, having been denied his honour. They fought, eventually Russ came to his senses and started laughing at what they were doing, but then Johnson punched him and laid him out cold.
By the time Russ woke up, the Dark Angels had gone for their next mission.

Apollyon
27-10-2005, 15:54
While the 1st story is accurate it is that the 1st story. Durring the Seige of Terra The Space Wolves and Dark Angels raced back to Terra to assist the Emperor. Enroute they encountered a Chaos stronghold and Russ insisted they liberate it before they go on, Johnson wanted to make all haste. Russ threated the recall of the Space Wolves so Johnson relented and they attacked the stronghold. This delay is what caused them to arrive too late to save the Emperor. Johnson blamed Russ and Russ challanged Johnson to a duel. During the duel Russ overcome by greif dropped his guard in a suicide bid, Johnson reliesed the stupidity of the duel pulled his blow and only wounded Russ instead of killing him. The two resolved to never fight again.
(note NO disloyalty on Johnson's or Russ's part) They are also noted as being the two closest primachs and this is sibling rivalry.

cailus
27-10-2005, 22:58
So did Russ chase the Chaos forces into the Eye of Terror with the 13th Company in a bid to atone for his lapse in judgment during the Heresy?

Gavmo
28-10-2005, 03:17
While the 1st story is accurate it is that the 1st story. Durring the Seige of Terra The Space Wolves and Dark Angels raced back to Terra to assist the Emperor. Enroute they encountered a Chaos stronghold and Russ insisted they liberate it before they go on, Johnson wanted to make all haste. Russ threated the recall of the Space Wolves so Johnson relented and they attacked the stronghold. This delay is what caused them to arrive too late to save the Emperor. Johnson blamed Russ and Russ challanged Johnson to a duel. During the duel Russ overcome by greif dropped his guard in a suicide bid, Johnson reliesed the stupidity of the duel pulled his blow and only wounded Russ instead of killing him. The two resolved to never fight again.
(note NO disloyalty on Johnson's or Russ's part) They are also noted as being the two closest primachs and this is sibling rivalry.

Uuuh, where did you get your fluff from? Sorry, but its not accurate. The 2nd ed Angels of Death and Space Wolves codex's have the stories in them. I think they brought the stories out in the later codex's too. But what you've said did not happen.:)

BattleSarge
28-10-2005, 03:50
It happened on the world of Dulan,Jonson started the attack early, The Emperor intervened and ordered the duel, Russ took a blade to the heart, fought four more times until Jonson's death.

from the compilation (1991)

HiveFleetEzekial
28-10-2005, 05:39
umm.. El' Johnson didn't DIE.. he's asleep right now. locked away inside the bowels of the Rock. and the Emp never interveined (how could he anyway.. he was on/near terra dealing with other, more important matters).

Russ wanted to rush in blindly after being insulted by the leader of the fortress and 'Johnson denied him the command of the assualt, not wanting his carefully laid plans to be ruined. then 'Johnson got the killing blow on the leader while Russ was stuck fighting outside the walls. for which Russ stormed in and struck 'Johnson. which they then fought for a day and a night.

"Johnson considered Russ' first blow treacherous... and struck him unconsious." considering honor satisfied (blow for a blow. and being amongst brothers practically) 'Johnson let Russ' men carry him off, setting off to another campaign himself.

it's like sai said.. but given the primarchs are "sons of the Emp." it's more like sibling rivalry. should do some more research on them. but you got the planet right. it's in Inedx Astartes(first volume)

Nazguire
28-10-2005, 08:06
Ok, so we've all had to say the same thing about how they became rivals...lets summarise...



1. Russ and Jonson wish to attack a fortress they both have reasons to for (Russ: pride, Jonson: assigned there)

2. Jonson wins said fortress, Russ is upset

3. Russ fights Jonson. Russ sees the pathetic side of it. Jonson doesn't. Jonson knocks out Russ.

Their rivalry wasn't deadly murderous. They had sibling rivalry and they were still friends. Probably tighter than most of the other Primarchial relationships. I remember reading that a possible reason Russ left on his Galactic Pub Crawl (tm) was to find Jonson who had went missing (only the DA, Fallen Angels, and the Emperor (possibly) knows what actually happened)

shadow hunter
28-10-2005, 08:16
I remember reading that a possible reason Russ left on his Galactic Pub Crawl (tm) was to find Jonson who had went missing (only the DA, Fallen Angels, and the Emperor (possibly) knows what actually happened)


I doubt this. Didn't Russ unexpectadly just get up during a feast, summon his closest warriors and leave. From what I gather this was a long time after the dissappearance of Johnson. If so, it doesn't make sense for him to suddenly do it after such a long time. It would have happened as soon as he knew.

Unless news took time to reach him I suppose.

Nazguire
28-10-2005, 08:26
I doubt this. Didn't Russ unexpectadly just get up during a feast, summon his closest warriors and leave. From what I gather this was a long time after the dissappearance of Johnson. If so, it doesn't make sense for him to suddenly do it after such a long time. It would have happened as soon as he knew.

Unless news took time to reach him I suppose.

That he did, leaving Bjorn the Fell Handed in charge. As I said, it was a possible reason only.

Also the current day DA and SW don't hate each other either. It is mentioned in the Eye of Terror final write-up that they fought together, defeating an enemy many times their number due to the respective skills of both Chapters. However, they don't particularly like each other either, hence why the write-up immediately followed with something along the lines of hoping that they didn't resort to their rivalry again in the pivotal moments of the campaign.

Inquisitor Maul
28-10-2005, 09:13
That he did, leaving Bjorn the Fell Handed in charge. As I said, it was a possible reason only.

Also the current day DA and SW don't hate each other either. It is mentioned in the Eye of Terror final write-up that they fought together, defeating an enemy many times their number due to the respective skills of both Chapters. However, they don't particularly like each other either, hence why the write-up immediately followed with something along the lines of hoping that they didn't resort to their rivalry again in the pivotal moments of the campaign.

They fought together and both chaters tried to outskill the other in a friendly manner, with all the friendly banther it includes. When the battle was won, it turned into outright insults :p

shadow hunter
28-10-2005, 09:26
I do thnk Dark Angels and Space Wolves are the most characterful and interesting marine chapters. If I were ever to do a marine army, it would be one of those.


I am right when I said they recreate the fight between Russ and Johnson though aren't I? Everytime they meet, a chosen warrior from each chapter fight each other, in honour of their primarchs.

Nazguire
28-10-2005, 09:36
I do thnk Dark Angels and Space Wolves are the most characterful and interesting marine chapters. If I were ever to do a marine army, it would be one of those.


I am right when I said they recreate the fight between Russ and Johnson though aren't I? Everytime they meet, a chosen warrior from each chapter fight each other, in honour of their primarchs.


Yep they do. I'm guessing a member of the Wolf Guard and Deathwing both fight it out, in either power armour, or in simple Chapter habits. I don't know if it is to the death (I doubt that) or not, however I'd hazard a guess they'd fight until there is a clear victor.

Apollyon
28-10-2005, 17:38
The "Red Book" or the "Yellow Book" (either the Compendium or the Compilation) I forget which, I'm sorry you weren't playing when these came out.


Uuuh, where did you get your fluff from? Sorry, but its not accurate. The 2nd ed Angels of Death and Space Wolves codex's have the stories in them. I think they brought the stories out in the later codex's too. But what you've said did not happen.:)

BattleSarge
30-10-2005, 02:48
yellow book compilation has the story of Russ, the first one anyways. The fluff has changed over the years. trust me on this one. I have been playing since there were chaos squats in exo-armour.(yes I have some).

Nazguire
30-10-2005, 02:52
The thing is, is that background still valid. We all know what happened to the Chaos Squats in Exo-Armour. ;)

BattleSarge
30-10-2005, 02:59
In the yellow book, Johnson dies, in the DA codex, he is wisked away to the center of the Rock. I say take your pick, just not infront of a DA player.

Nazguire
30-10-2005, 03:03
In the yellow book, Johnson dies, in the DA codex, he is wisked away to the center of the Rock. I say take your pick, just not infront of a DA player.

In the Index Astartes, he's whisked away. I say go with that :D

BattleSarge
30-10-2005, 03:06
In the Index Astartes, he's whisked away. I say go with that :D

Me too. It makes for better fluff.

HiveFleetEzekial
30-10-2005, 04:11
he wasn't "whisked away" to the rock.. he WALKED away, and went on to fight in atleast 1 more campaigne, in the index astartes. and unless they added more fluff in the 2.0 DA dex from last edition(i got the first one, no white cirle stamp on it) it doesn't say anything on the matter at all.

BattleSarge
30-10-2005, 21:36
I thought Luthor mortally wounded him, the watchers in the dark took him,Luther was taken to a secret chamber that only the sword of secrets can grant access to. I could be wrong. I am a SW player.

HiveFleetEzekial
30-10-2005, 23:10
that was a totaly different fight. and was DA vs (misslead/seduced)DA. word of secrets doesn't grant access to it. and only the watchers(and probly the WAY higher ups of the Inner Circle) know where exactly in the rock he is, Emp. just knows he's "there". the sword of secrets has a different use than that. (what exactly, i don't remember to well, been a while since i did major reading on it)

Shas'o'Fior
30-10-2005, 23:37
Wait, So why was johnson put in the rock?

HiveFleetEzekial
31-10-2005, 01:11
he's in stasis because of the outcome of the fight with Luther, otherwise he would be dead now.
luther unleashed a powerful sorcesous attack that mortaly wounded 'Johnson. (rest of the story can be found in Index Astartes vol. 1 )

Gavmo
31-10-2005, 09:10
The "Red Book" or the "Yellow Book" (either the Compendium or the Compilation) I forget which, I'm sorry you weren't playing when these came out.

Well, understandable. I would have been about 6 at the time.

talos935
31-10-2005, 09:46
A good spin on the DA which adds fuel to the fire is in the chaos od the split of the DA, considering now the DA don't like any "outsiders" and are very secretive. The big question is are the Fallen Angels the good guys and the DA the chaosy worshipers? And do the SW have an insight of this?

HiveFleetEzekial
31-10-2005, 09:51
There is no question about it young brother marine.. The Fallen ARE the heretics. Sadly Luther was seduced and blinded by the powers of Chaos, and led his fellow bretheren (that we left to guard our sacred home durring the venture to Terra, to try and help the great Emporor stop Horus' crusade), against us on our return home.


as for Sw having any knowledge, dunno for sure. they not sayin anything, and we keep to ourselves.... :)

Wiseman
31-10-2005, 10:07
Russ got the snot kicked out of him cos hes soft and Johnson is uber and cool and so knocked him out and went drinking with the emperor leaving russ feeling upset and so he started whinging, and then ran away in shame. :D

Eldacar
31-10-2005, 10:33
I'd say that Russ is the "cooler" of the two, given that he enjoys drinking, parties, and so on. But Jonson gets points, too. Sort of like Patton (Russ) against Montgomery (Jonson), though Montgomery might not be the best comparison. Sort of close, though.

Flint
01-11-2005, 02:54
The Russ/Patton El'Johnson/Montgomery analogy is interesting. If you've ever watch Patton you can picture Patton as Russ and his army as a band of Space Wolves trying to beat Montgomery and his army up the coast of Sicily to victory and glory.