PDA

View Full Version : Pathfinders in 5th? the new harlies?



Kildash
02-07-2008, 08:47
Hey, I was just thinking about fifth edition, and noticed something:

a pathfinder unit causes any to hit roll of 5 or 6 to be AP 1, and any to wound roll of 6 ALSO causes AP 1 (due to snipers being rending)... so, with 10 Pathfinders, you would statistically cause like... i dunno 5 AP 1 wounds?

I'm not good at mathhammer, but I rolled 10 dice a few times, and each time i had between 4 and 8 AP 1 shots that had wounded... ouch...

so: the question becomes: will pathfinders be the new uberunit in 5th edition, somewhat like the harlequins were in 4th... they are also less expensive.... 240 points for 10 pathfinders (that have a 2+ cover save) is a lot less than 6 harlequins in a tooled out falcon. ow, not to mention that they are pinning, and usually the unit should be under half strength after you are done with it, which hightens the chances of pinning.

what do you guys think?

lain2k3
02-07-2008, 08:51
cover saves will be abundant in 5th, reducing their effectiveness some.
They also hit on BS now, reducing their hits by a bit.
And there is no LD modifier for below half anymore, so pinning is actually harder to pull off.


However, catch a squad of marines in the open, Doom, Guide, and it's over.

Kildash
02-07-2008, 08:57
Hmm, i didn't know about the BS and the leadership thing, but if you stick a unit of 10 pathfinders and a seer on an objective, the enemy might as well stop attacking, even more if you stick a nice unit of, say, striking scorpions or harlequins behind em as countercharge...

Redskull
02-07-2008, 09:30
Yeh that BS is going to do great when 2-3 mobs of boyz (two mobs are still cheaper then the Pathfiders, let alone when you have a Farseer and a unit of counterchargers sitting there) roll up and punk them easy, shooting is not the whole game...

Kildash
02-07-2008, 09:38
ehm... if you want to rant, can you please just do it with some guy that lives on the street or something... thank you. :eyebrows:

you are clearly one of those "wow, look at me my army is da best ever!!! ow yeah, I rule!!!!"-guys... have fun with it

Life is also not only about orkz, get over it.



so, to continue the post, what do you people think? ;)

Torga_DW
02-07-2008, 09:41
he's right though, cover is useless against melee

lain2k3
02-07-2008, 09:43
Did someone say that shooting was the whole game?

CC wasn't the whole game in 4th when Harlies were beastly, and no one had trouble understanding that.

2 standard mobs of 30 ork boyz with nob and PK are 430 points, and you'll probably want some rokkits or big shootas, and bosspoles, bringing the total cost to 500 points.

2 squads of 10 pathfinders costs about that, but if you're making a decent list that is ready to take multiple lists, you could have a farseer with stones, doom, and guide, 10 pathfinders, and 10 dire avengers with bladestorm.

That group of eldar can knock out, on average, 46-48 orks in 2 turns on shooting before they get charged. One eldar squad will probably get overrun, and the other will be able to finish the orks off after the combat.

Shooting isn't the whole game, but eldar can do a lot of it.

Redskull
02-07-2008, 09:51
Did not mean to rant, English is not my first language and i just woke up so sorry about that...

Still you seem so certain that Pathfinders are the best unit in the game. They are good but they still have weaknesses like fast melee units and area weapons that ignore cover saves.

The example you gave assumed a lot about my post (granted i forgot to mention the trukks, my bad) and it has also move the conversation into a different field, are pathfinders good in a combined arms fight? Yes they are! All eldar are, or at least are supposed to be (im looking at you Mr. Dark Reaper)

So before you start putting other people´s opinion down, people that are good enough to answer your question of are Pathfinders the best unit in the game, learn some manners and try to be diplomatic.

So the gist of this "rant"

Pathfinders good? = Yes
Pathfinders best? = No

Thank you and have a nice day

IJW
02-07-2008, 10:23
ehm... if you want to rant, can you please just do it with some guy that lives on the street or something... thank you. :eyebrows:
Where's the rant? Pathfinders perform extremely poorly against most horde armies, just like they always have in previous editions. And I say that as someone who uses up to 20 pathfinders in a 1500pt list... :)

Sekhmet
02-07-2008, 10:36
Hey, I was just thinking about fifth edition, and noticed something:

a pathfinder unit causes any to hit roll of 5 or 6 to be AP 1, and any to wound roll of 6 ALSO causes AP 1 (due to snipers being rending)... so, with 10 Pathfinders, you would statistically cause like... i dunno 5 AP 1 wounds?

I'm not good at mathhammer, but I rolled 10 dice a few times, and each time i had between 4 and 8 AP 1 shots that had wounded... ouch...

so: the question becomes: will pathfinders be the new uberunit in 5th edition, somewhat like the harlequins were in 4th... they are also less expensive.... 240 points for 10 pathfinders (that have a 2+ cover save) is a lot less than 6 harlequins in a tooled out falcon. ow, not to mention that they are pinning, and usually the unit should be under half strength after you are done with it, which hightens the chances of pinning.

what do you guys think?

Pathfinders are better than that in 5th

Fortune is now causes a LOT more AP1 shots than before. You'll miss twice as much (1 and 2 misses instead of just a 1), meaning you'll get more rerolls, meaning you'll get more 5 and 6s.

Then Doom also helps more as it won't just be causing more wounds, but also more AP1.

Yes, they're disgusting in 5th. Oh, and with infiltrate/scout, they can come in on the sides of the board, they're TROOPS, they ignore terrain, and get +2 to cover saves, meaning you only have to sit them behind another squad to get a 2+ save.

IJW
02-07-2008, 10:52
Fortune is now causes a LOT more AP1 shots than before.
You mean Guide. ;)


Oh, and with infiltrate/scout, they can come in on the sides of the board, they're TROOPS, they ignore terrain, and get +2 to cover saves, meaning you only have to sit them behind another squad to get a 2+ save.
I surprise people by doing silly things like first turn charges into Tau etc. with Pathfinders (deploy @ 18", scout move, move/fleet/charge), but I think bringing Pathfinders on from the board edges is probably a waste (again, unless you can charge Tau) - remember that the sniper rifles are heavy weapons so can't move and fire. Between waiting for them to arrive and waiting for them to move on you'll not be getting many shots in.

Potential cover saves in the open is a biggy, though. :evilgrin:

Sekhmet
02-07-2008, 11:17
You mean Guide. ;)

Yeah, got confused.



I surprise people by doing silly things like first turn charges into Tau etc. with Pathfinders (deploy @ 18", scout move, move/fleet/charge), but I think bringing Pathfinders on from the board edges is probably a waste (again, unless you can charge Tau) - remember that the sniper rifles are heavy weapons so can't move and fire. Between waiting for them to arrive and waiting for them to move on you'll not be getting many shots in.

Potential cover saves in the open is a biggy, though. :evilgrin:
If you're playing against certain armies, I'd rather leave the pathfinders in reserve and come on from a table edge to claim an objective in relative safety. It's an option, not saying it'd be used all of the time.

Kildash
02-07-2008, 11:29
yes, but you could also move onto an objective... although it would indeed be best to just keep them at the objective in your deployment zone...

IJW
02-07-2008, 11:31
If you're playing against certain armies, I'd rather leave the pathfinders in reserve and come on from a table edge to claim an objective in relative safety. It's an option, not saying it'd be used all of the time.
Given that it would be depending on a Reserves roll to come on when you want, a pretty risky option. But new options are always good, especially when they confuse your opponent. :)

Bathfinder
02-07-2008, 11:38
As with most units in the eldar army: pathfinders also have their nieche. Which will be sniping monstrous creatures and shooting at everything meq or better. They just don't have the volume of fire to take on hordes. When I have tried playin pathfinder-heavy, then everything else has to be focused on tanks or hordes.

Barbarossa
02-07-2008, 11:45
Pathfinders are best against armies with some few hard and expensive targets (Death Guard for example - their +1 T doesn't mean anything against sniper rifles and the new FNP rules say that it is ignored by AP 1 weapons), but they will be a point sink against some other armies.
Orks have already been mentioned, IG are another example. If you're lucky you can shoot a command squad, but even these won't bring enough points in for 10 Pathfinders + Farseer. And if the Guard player brought a hellhound or two those Pathfinders will be roasted chicken faster than you can say 'brightlance'.

The Highlander
02-07-2008, 11:47
You can bang away all you like at my Guard, we won't be bothered by AP1 (like we get amour anyway), our moral means we won't care about pinning (LD9 with re-role, shift that mate) and one squad with a flamer DS next to you and it's good night.

Sekhmet
02-07-2008, 11:58
You can bang away all you like at my Guard, we won't be bothered by AP1 (like we get amour anyway), our moral means we won't care about pinning (LD9 with re-role, shift that mate) and one squad with a flamer DS next to you and it's good night.

What about 121 pt 3 man guardian jetbike squads with a warlock with a heavy flamer?

Redskull
02-07-2008, 12:10
Thats a compleatly diffrent question and has nothing to do with the ability´s of the pathfinders...

This is a discussion about pathfinders right? not about how awesome eldar are or did i stumble onto the wrong thread?

I dont mean to be trollish or mean, but i seem that way now that i re-read what i just wrote, sorry about that...

Kildash
02-07-2008, 12:15
Did not mean to rant, English is not my first language and i just woke up so sorry about that...

sorry about my counter-rant then, I must have misunderstood...

Still you seem so certain that Pathfinders are the best unit in the game.

eh, no, I was just amazed that they got a whole lot better....


They are good but they still have weaknesses like fast melee units and area weapons that ignore cover saves.

obviously...


The example you gave assumed a lot about my post (granted i forgot to mention the trukks, my bad) and it has also move the conversation into a different field, are pathfinders good in a combined arms fight? Yes they are! All eldar are, or at least are supposed to be (im looking at you Mr. Dark Reaper)

So before you start putting other people´s opinion down, people that are good enough to answer your question of are Pathfinders the best unit in the game, learn some manners and try to be diplomatic.

So the gist of this "rant"

Pathfinders good? = Yes
Pathfinders best? = No

indeed

Thank you and have a nice day



have a nice day also ;)

Brucopeloso
02-07-2008, 13:10
I like the idea of combining a pathfinder unit with a dire avenger squad and a farseer. Nice all rounder detachment. Thanks for the idea. :D

Kildash
02-07-2008, 13:37
you're welcome...

that'll be five bucks then :D

Redskull
02-07-2008, 13:42
Yes i totaly agree with that also, two kick ass troop units working together.

And also i in no way want to take anything away from the eldar combined arms approach, only thing i was disagreeing with was this notion that a single unit of Pathfinders was kick ass on its own, i believe no Eldar unit is designed to be awesome on its own, that in itself would be against the combined arms approach...

I am interested in seeing what people think of the new harlies now that rending has been made more humane (i myself am happy with the change but then again none of my armies use rending)

Peace out

Grand Master Raziel
02-07-2008, 14:22
I don't think we have to worry too much about Pathfinder spam. Sure, they'll be hard to kill with shooting if they're in cover, but they'll melt when hit with a flamer. A lot of armies have long-range cover save ignoring weapons, too. IG have the Hellhound, the Dark Angels and (I think) Blood Angels have the incendiary Castellan for their Whirlwinds, and I expect the burnination missile will make it over to the Codex: Space Marines Whirly as well. Nids don't exactly have such a thing, but they do have Lictors that can pop out of the piece of terrain the Pathfinders are sitting in and eat them. That's just off the top of my head. I'm reasonably sure most armies have means of dealing with pesky Pathys.

Mind you, if enough people start using Pathfinders and units with similar abilities (IG with the Camo doctrine, for instance), it might shift the metagame away from plasma and to flamers.




Yes, they're disgusting in 5th. Oh, and with infiltrate/scout, they can come in on the sides of the board,

That strikes me as a singularly bad idea, putting them closer to units that can charge them. Pathys have many strengths, but resilience in close combat isn't one of them. Wouldn't Striking Scorpions be better to use for that kind of thing? They may not be able to claim objectives, but they can contest them, and are a hella lot better than Pathys in close combat.

IJW
02-07-2008, 14:40
Mind you, if enough people start using Pathfinders and units with similar abilities (IG with the Camo doctrine, for instance), it might shift the metagame away from plasma and to flamers.
I suspect it's going to go that way anyway, between more cover saves and the difficulties of dealing Ork Horde spam.

AfroCelt
02-07-2008, 16:06
man, you all got my hopes up....I was looking at setups of TAU pathfinders today... :P

And yes, you're going to see more flamers in the competitive games, along with (im betting) blast templates.

lain2k3
02-07-2008, 17:44
you're welcome...

that'll be five bucks then :D

That was my post he was talking about! =p

Doomseer
02-07-2008, 18:17
It's a double-edged sword, they get improved cover saves, but suffer on BS. They're another unit, like the Harlequins, requiring you to adjust your tactics for 5th edition.

==Me==
02-07-2008, 18:27
They'll be better, but with cover becoming more prevalent AP1 isn't going to mean much. Getting a unit in the open and having a Farseer on standby to cast Doom and Guide isn't going to be happening every game (especially when he's busy casting Fortune on your Falcon).

Also, flamers.

Kildash
02-07-2008, 20:41
yes, you know, what is really ironic, is that rending actually improved in the case of the pathfinders... suppose that it would still be on to hit rolls, the pathfinders would have no advantage at all, since 6's are AP 1 anyway... but now they get yet another shot at getting AP 1...

it's gotta be said, sometimes, you simply have to love GW :)

The Song of Spears
02-07-2008, 21:16
I thought the 5th ed book stated that rending is ap2, not ap1? Did i miss something?

senorcardgage
03-07-2008, 04:09
2 squads of 10 pathfinders costs about that, but if you're making a decent list that is ready to take multiple lists, you could have a farseer with stones, doom, and guide, 10 pathfinders, and 10 dire avengers with bladestorm.

That group of eldar can knock out, on average, 46-48 orks in 2 turns on shooting before they get charged. One eldar squad will probably get overrun, and the other will be able to finish the orks off after the combat.


Ever consider that the ork player might have another 500 points like all the extra stuff you just gave to the eldar? Normally when you put 1000 points against ~460 the 1000 point team wins... big surprise...:rolleyes:

Caiphas Cain
03-07-2008, 04:32
What in the God-Emperors name are you talking about??!!

Bluies cannot suddenly become wicked cool, have masks on, AND be good in CC.

Its just absolutly un-thinkable

Starchild
03-07-2008, 04:55
I thought the 5th ed book stated that rending is ap2, not ap1? Did i miss something?

I had a look at my store's copy of the rulebook. I think rending is indeed AP2... maybe some of us think it's AP1 because of the rumour threads.

Pathfinders are good, but I can get a better deal on other troops... namely Dire Avengers. Pathfinders are a little too static for my style.

lain2k3
03-07-2008, 05:02
Ever consider that the ork player might have another 500 points like all the extra stuff you just gave to the eldar? Normally when you put 1000 points against ~460 the 1000 point team wins... big surprise...:rolleyes:

What?

Both sides in the above description are ~500 points.

Moriarty
03-07-2008, 07:33
Life is also not only about orkz, get over it.



Damn, there goes the last few years, then!

:-)

Kildash
03-07-2008, 08:30
I wonder why each and every one of the posts i start ends in a discussion, with the first party saying "but the orkz would beat it easily", and the other saying "yes, you have a point, but there are still better things"...

I never said anything about 2 units of 10 pathfinders, I also never said that they would be good against orks... I also never said anything about a 500 pts value. Ow, and @seniorcardgage: if you go up to 1000 pts, and thus outnumber me, I also have a 1000pts... as far as I know, the game is still played with equal points values on each side. So, let me clarify what this post has teached us:

-pathfinders become a lot better in fifth edition
-you don't use pathfinders against orks, well, not ONLY pathfinders
-some ork players actually have ork brains
-there are other troops for other situations, but the trick with eldar is combining. So, I'm pretty sure my all-round list for 5th will contain both dire avengers and pathfinders, maybe even some jetbikes. Again, combining is key, having a solution for everything
-OBVIOUSLY, pathfinders are not great against everything... everything has it's strong and weak points (even the current harlequins, you just try to throw em in a unit of the new daemonettes or dark eldar wyches)

banik
03-07-2008, 15:58
Howdy all, Kildash posted over in Librarium-Online as well, and I threw some mathhammer at the problem. Here's the link to the mathhammer post:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2749655#post2749655

Long story short, Pathfinders are better in 5th, but not as good as harlies were in 4th. Pathfinders kill nearly the same amount (+/- 50% at the most) no matter what you're shooting at. And finally, guide/doom/maxing doom makes things interesting.

Regards.

Murphys Avatar
04-07-2008, 01:43
Pathfinders behind friendly uits will still get the 2+ cover save in the open and be way out of the way of the plentiful flamers people keep talking about. Put em in the centre of the army and they will pull off a few cool shocks. Then at the end they run and take an objective ignoring cover of hold a kill point the enemy can never take...... unless they got a dark angels whirlwind!!!

Starchild
04-07-2008, 07:31
-some ork players actually have ork brains

LOL!!! :p

Pathfinders will be the best snipers in the game, hands down. And the fact that they are Troops just makes them better. There's a lot of interesting dynamics having Pathfinders cover an Aspect Warrior attack. That's just part of the war-is-art Eldar mentality. :cool:

Bathfinder
04-07-2008, 08:15
I thought the 5th ed book stated that rending is ap2, not ap1? Did i miss something?

Sure, rending is AP2, but on top of that, we have the pathfinder special rule that says on a 5+ to hit, thay will get ap1 (that will possibly transform into ap2 with a wound roll of 6) but anyway, we ahve both rending and the t-hit thingy...

Mitheral
08-07-2008, 04:44
And yes, you're going to see more flamers in the competitive games, along with (im betting) blast templates.

Poor, Necrons. No flamers and only a single very expensive template whose use is at odds with keeping the army alive.

Archangel_Ruined
08-07-2008, 13:32
It's an odd thread. The smart money says no, pathfinders aren't as good as harlies. There are times when they're so much better than harlies that it's sickening, but they just don't work against none MEQ'ish armies, whereas harlies are great in combat regardless of who turns up on the other side of the board and can get there reliably thanks to some beardmongering falcons. I agree that harlequins will struggle to clear their killzones quite as efficiently in 5th, leaving them a little more vulnerable to hordes, they're also far more likely to break opponents, and do you really want to compare initiative values with an FC harlequin? Pathfinders are very good, but you can't really base an army on them if you expect to be competitive against everything. That said, taking one unit of them seems to be a no brainer in 5th, I wouldn't like trying to shift them from an objective, especially with bladestorming dire avengers floating around in the mix.