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View Full Version : Thousand Sons is the most difficult army to command



asdfghjkl
02-07-2008, 21:38
I'm seriously impressed by any general fielding a Thousand Sons army.

And by that I mean at least 3 squads of 7 thousand sons.

I can't think of any army harder to win with. Especially with the new cover save rules making the 5+ save less impressive.

Oberon
02-07-2008, 21:41
Why? TS are a great army, while not suited to beating triple falcons&farseers, they can try against nids and surely fare very well against MEQ. Hardes army to beat on paper seems to be either eldar or masses of orks, but TS are by no means weak. BTW, TS have 4+ invulnerable saves, not 5+. Your point is still valid though, as almost everything grants 4+ cover save in the fifth ed :/

studderigdave
02-07-2008, 21:41
i too give props to the pure kson list players, they had it pretty rough in the previous codex, and whle they got better* in the new codex, they are still quite difficult to command.

*i still think 2 wound kson's were great.

asdfghjkl
02-07-2008, 21:45
I don't play chaos so I don't know their rules but talked to a guy at games day about them and he was saying you pretty much have to buy a demon prince to help out with CCW and 2 predator annhiliators to get some lascannon AT and by that point you have over 1000points but only 24 models!!

Tau must have a field day with their railguns and str5 spam....

Hicks
02-07-2008, 21:59
I honestly think that tittle should go to Grey Knights. Plus Thousand Sons can beat them really easily.

electric
02-07-2008, 22:04
I agree. My friend plays them, and his army entails Ahriman, one predator, and then all TSons troops. I've watched, and I definitely realize how hard it is to general them. Although he loses most of his games and ties but a few, he plays them well and I think not many could do that.

Plus, it seems to be that they've been getting worse and worse since 3rd, and now with the oncoming of 5th have taken yet another huge blow. It's unfortunate, because their models are awesome.

asdfghjkl
02-07-2008, 22:13
Grey knights are easier... especially with a couple of landraiders and TLLC dreads.

The_Outsider
02-07-2008, 22:18
Dark eldar fools, a list whose mortal enemy is the bolter.

Thoth62
02-07-2008, 22:18
I never understood why people thought that...

I've played Thousand Sons for years, and I've always had a winning percentage hovering somewhere around 75 to 80%. The new codex made things much easier for me as well. 4++? AP3 bolters?

I can actually say that since the new codex came out, I've lost a grand total of 3 games with them.

Edit: Pictures here (http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa234/Thoth62/Thousand%20Sons/) if you're curious.

Vedar
03-07-2008, 00:09
What really hurts TS is the forced 60+ point sorceror for every TS squad. Ahriman is also really not worth his points. Even without all the psychic hoods and Eldrads running around Chaos Psychic power are fairly weak and short range (other than lash which Tzeentch sorcerors can't use).

I personaly think Psychic hoods should require a psychic check or something to make them less powerful. Eldrad should go back in his grave and quit leading every Eldar panty raid. Chaos should be given some GOOD psychic powers that don't require a psychic check to shoot a short range shot.

Lord Cook
03-07-2008, 00:11
Dark eldar fools, a list whose mortal enemy is the bolter.

Dark Eldar are very hard to play with, I agree, but they're far more powerful as a list than either Thousand Sons or Grey Knights.


Grey knights are easier... especially with a couple of landraiders and TLLC dreads.

I disagree. Land Raiders are incredibly expensive and within a GK list, they tend to lack the support they need to earn that expense, in my experience.


Chaos should be given some GOOD psychic powers that don't require a psychic check to shoot a short range shot.

With respect, we have as much claim to psychic powers as anyone except maybe Eldar, and our psykers are absolutely awful. Chaos definately did better in the psychic abilities lottery than others. But of course like any of us, I agree you deserve better (except for the Power-that-shall-not-be-named).

TheDarkDuke
03-07-2008, 01:02
What? TS are hard to command?

I am sorry but that may be the furthest from the truth. Old list, heck ya, they would not go down but you had to figure away to actually kill something. As mentioned above, i can't see how a 4++ save and ap3 bolters requires as much skill as using any of the other 3 cults.... let alone other armies.

I say this respectfully as my brother plays TS and I am starting up DG being a long time Nurgle follower but never taken it to the table top. These two cult units are clearly the easier to use in the CSM Codex, of the 4 cult troops. I have had a real pain taking down Tzeench Termiies while trying to dodge too much incoming fire from TS troops... not too mention Warp Time and its killing ability.

==Me==
03-07-2008, 05:58
4+ invulnerable and AP3 bolters?

Oh yes, only a supreme tactical genius can master such a force :rolleyes:

Pure TSons in the old codex could have been used as a rite of passage in some cultures, but now they are much much stronger.

They aren't as uber as some competitive lists, but I'd probably rank them with DW, GKs, mono-god daemons (especially Khorne), and RW in terms of difficulty.

Now, the best generals play pure radical Daemon Hunters or Witch Hunters. That takes a huge pair (and probably weighted dice) ;)

asdfghjkl
03-07-2008, 10:04
Witchhunters are very competitive.

11points for a BS4 bolter and 3+ save

3 exorcists give you 3d6 st8 ap1 rockets. For 350ish points. That's ridiculous.

I cant remember what else there is but witchhunters are definately an awesome army.


Thousand sons against tyrannids, orks, guard, tau, eldar are rubbish.

Think about this. guided triple warwalker scatter laser hits about 18times.

Thats 6 dead marines. And those 3 warwalkers cost just 180points.

killing 20 thousand sons is the same as killing 60ork boyz.... not that hard.

BrianC
03-07-2008, 10:31
Radical Witch Hunters shouldn't have any SoB, just Storm Troopers, Arbites, and Zealots as troop choices, and no heavy other than Penitent Engines or any fast choices (although you could stick the Storm Troopers in a transport to make an armoured fist I guess) other than inducted IG if you don't mind allying with another army.

Sekhmet
03-07-2008, 11:00
I'd say 1k sons are easy to command. They're very simple.

Ease of command does not equal ease of victory.

UltimateNagash
03-07-2008, 13:23
I play a Tzeentch army, not "Thousand Sons" army, because, at the moment, I only have one unit of Thousand Sons made... Most things (if not all of it), has the Mark of Tzeentch, except for my Havoc unit, because it's only a 1000 point army. But I have the list made, and when it's finished I'll have 3000 points of Tzeentchy goodness :)

But yes, I don't see Thousand Sons a problem. Personally I've found taking a couple of units of Terminators always good, and Tzeentch Daemon Weapons are awesome. And those missile launchers sure do help against alot of things (especially now in 5th edition with templates always hitting). Deep Striking units had better beware. And yes, my army does rarely allow anything other than a 2+ save, and I'm working on that by making my second Raptor unit with twin meltas.

jibbajabbawocky
03-07-2008, 13:49
i too give props to the pure kson list players, they had it pretty rough in the previous codex, and whle they got better* in the new codex, they are still quite difficult to command.

*i still think 2 wound kson's were great.

I used to play pure 1kSons in the previous Codex. I think I only lost about 4 times, and all of those losses were due to objectives of one kind or another. The new version just seems too "Lets make them REALLY good so people will play them", so I sold my army to a friend.

ctsteel
03-07-2008, 13:53
And by that I mean at least 3 squads of 7 thousand sons.

I'm guessing your use of 7 here was in reference to the 'magic' number for each god - Tzeentch is 9, rather than 7.

/pedantry

Miggidy Mack
03-07-2008, 14:41
My buddy has a pretty strong thousand sons list. He uses 3 Thousand Sons units, 2 Defilers and then a bunch of summoned daemons.

The army can win, but for some reason (just like DH players) people don't want to branch out with a thousands sons list. Just because you want to play thousand sons, that doesn't mean you have to play JUST thousand sons. A realistic thousand sons army wouldn't have other gods troops, thats true... but there are a lot of options still on the table.

That's like saying. "I'm really impressed by anyone who plays an all Scout Army. It's so hard to win without predators or land speeders." "I'm really impressed by anyone who plays a tannith first and only army, It's really hard to win without any tanks."

UltimateNagash
03-07-2008, 16:14
Yeah, my army usually contains one Thousand Son squad and one CSM squad, that containing a Power Fist and two Plasma Guns. One can deal with most things, the other is highly specialised, but very durable.
And then I grab my Terminators, they've never failed me yet. Plus Raptors are always good, and the 5++ save really helps when my opponent is playing Grey Knights, with those damn power weapon guys who strike in I order at S6. But I digress

Yes, I play Tzeentch and my opponent plays Grey Knights. Good battles, very thematic :)

AdmiralDick
03-07-2008, 16:20
i too give props to the pure kson list players, they had it pretty rough in the previous codex, and whle they got better* in the new codex, they are still quite difficult to command.

*i still think 2 wound kson's were great.

so they should be.

surely the hardest and most rewarding army to command should be the one dedicated to the god of misdirection and trickery. if they were easy to play and win with then they would not be TS.

Reinnon
03-07-2008, 16:24
i miss the 2 wound versions, i got a bit annoyed with just how fragile the new versions were against boltgun fire.

I semi retired them for the simple fact that i didn't enjoy them in their new rule set, i felt that the army worked better when it had 2 wounds. Plus you don't get <insert insulting tag> who insist that because you have AP3 boltguns you are awesome.

i'm focussing now on tzeentch daemons for my tzeentch buzz, i might get back into the sons in the future.

Thoth62
03-07-2008, 18:34
I have to admit, as soon as I found out what the new statline was looking like for them, I made sure that everybody in my regular group knew that I wasn't going to continue playing them because of the rules. They've always been my favourite legion background, and models wise, and that was the entire reason for me picking them up in the first place. I was adamant in clarifying that I wasn't playing them in the new codex because of their rules, but because of their background, and that it's always been that way.

No one's yet dropped cries of cheese on me, and I don't think anyone will.

UltimateNagash
03-07-2008, 18:46
Nope, never had any cries of cheese when I've played with them. Because they're not. They cost even more than a Necron, and aren't as durable (when combined with Lords), are slower and even worse in combat. But they have their AP3 bolters. Which are good, but not great actually. I saw them tied up in a combat with an Inquisitor for three rounds and only killing two models... They're that bad at fighting, so many points unable to help...

Thoth62
03-07-2008, 18:49
True that.

You know what I love doing with them when I play eldar?

Sticking them out in front of a unit of banshees. :evilgrin:

UltimateNagash
03-07-2008, 19:08
You know what's just as funny, gunning down a unit of five Grey Knight Terminators from 5 men to 1 man with inferno bolters. Now that was funny

Kyrolon
03-07-2008, 20:37
Think about this. guided triple warwalker scatter laser hits about 18times.

Thats 6 dead marines. And those 3 warwalkers cost just 180points.


Really? So my Farseers with guide are free now? AWESOME! I'll take 2 from now on. :)

If you include an ability in an example please include the cost of that ability or your comparison falls short. Guide, Fortune, Doom, Bladestorm etc, etc are all good. Some are even great, but they are not standard abilities that come for free. Kinda like that 60 pt sorceror you know? (Dire Avenger exarch both powers, power weapon/shimmer shield = 64 pts.)

Also, don't forget the wound roll. 18 hits= 15 wounds = 5 dead marines.

Dan

Dach
03-07-2008, 22:21
Someone just been quoted for truth! (see my signature :p)

Thought I reckon Thousand Sons aren't the easiest to play either.

hood_oz
03-07-2008, 23:52
After several years and multiple editions of 40k, my Tzeentch 1k sons are looking a bit worse for wear. True you can build a reasonably competitive army with the current codex, but I am now holding off my refresh of the army in light of the horrors possibly coming in plastic (these may be years off) and the Legion codex. Knowing the way the armies are going to come out, I expect them to have the last of the four codex books, but a Legion book will certainly bring different options to the force.

I do use a rather large amount of daemons in my army, but it is all based around a couple of TS squads, a TS terminator squad and a couple of sorcerors.

I just need to add in some transport options as I find the army gets out-manuvored too easily in larger games.

But we may see the plastic goodness rolled out for the legions when they get their codex's

Lord Cook
04-07-2008, 00:16
But we may see the plastic goodness rolled out for the legions when they get their codex's

Assuming they ever get codex's :eyebrows:.

Unamed Consript
04-07-2008, 00:38
My friend must be a tactical genius with his grey knights then. He hasent lost yet and uses all knights and orbitals. Still only with a total army size of like 35 i think.

Hicks
04-07-2008, 02:41
My friend must be a tactical genius with his grey knights then. He hasent lost yet and uses all knights and orbitals. Still only with a total army size of like 35 i think.

Could very well be. Some people tend to do real good with underperforming armies naturally. It's amazing what you can do when ignore mathammer and have the dice gods on your side.

toxic_wisdom
04-07-2008, 05:06
What's so hard about roll dice - move forward - things die ?

I regularly run a 1750 list with three units of 8 KSons + Asp Sorc ( GoC )... Chaos Lord on Bike with Deathscreamer... and three units of 3 blitz...

The list does amazingly well as an all comers... and of course better still against MEQ lists.

Kissaholic
04-07-2008, 07:00
the reason thosand sons are hard to play is because you are always outnumbered (well alot of times you are) and you die just as easily as other space marines from small arms fire

when you loose 1 T-sons it hurts alot and when ur out numbered and people shoot at you and you need to make 10 saves..... and with thousand sons you dont even get that many shots in a tipical unit, you get 8 and need 3's to hit and 4's to wound so your getting like 2 wounds... and if there in cover than **** ur screwed AP3 is useless and againg horde armies regular space marine bolters AP them and they have nothing strong enough that takes away ur armour so all ur special abilities are useless!