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caeser21
03-07-2008, 11:25
Ive noticed recently comments /scriblings that point me to a theory about the direction that 40k may head in ,see what you think.
WD343 p37 mentions that the golden throne is failing.
Various locations -mention that workshop can now make bigger kits.
Gamesday Canada Jervis mentioned that Squats may re-emurge.

OK now my speculative theory
The Squats are indeed rediscovered ,their technology will enable the mechanicum to repair the golden throne however like the multi-belief Inquisition some won't use xenos technology,some won't want the newly found tech to be shared prefering instead to keep it for themselves(pos a STC holds the information),some will see it as a neccessary evil if it keeps the Emperor alive,all of which could bring about a new Civil war?as the various sides battle it out for control of said information,by bringing in the Squats /mechanicum it will allow new unbeforeseen vehicles/weaponry that would likely be very large/destructive(Squat Landtrain,Ordinatus,Titans),note the recent appearance of the Reaver Titan.

Anyway its my current theory your views.

DarthSte
03-07-2008, 11:31
Before the 3rd Edition came out, way back in '98, I was told of a similar premise by a red-shirt in Colchester. The Emperor actually died, without him Imperial Warp Travel was lost, somehow the Squats re-emerged and saved the day. Obviously they didn't go with it.

But with it being "The time of endings" and other things going on, maybe they are revisiting this idea?

jedipenguin
03-07-2008, 11:38
Its all just for flavour, I've been playing this game since the early 90's and there has always been talk about the timeline moving on, but it never happens, as it serves no purpose to GW to upset the balance.

And Jervis was talking about the possibility of maybe perhaps at some point in the future considering to develop the Demiurg into a new race as a sort of surrogate for Squats, all in all I would'nt get my hopes up.

BrianC
03-07-2008, 11:40
I was thinking about this the other day and my guess was:

5th edition - Throne starts to fail
6th edition - Throne has failed, new age of darkness
7th edition - Emperor reborn, new age of enlightenment

I've gone for that extended time line as I see the Black Library wanting to finish of the Horus Heresy first, then move onto the new ages.

Melchor
03-07-2008, 11:42
They wil never, EVER advance the 40k universe in a significant way. Sure, planets will blow up, people will die but the basic premise remains the same. Why? because the 40k universe is a SETTING, not a storyline.

The fact that they named the recent years (in the 40k timeline) the 'Time of Endings' IS a new thing. The majority of the stuff that happened is not. Finding a flaw in the Golden throne just adds to the 'two minutes to midnight' feel the 40k universe has.

Like DarthSte said, back when 3rd was about to come out there were lots of rumours about the timeline advancing but it didn't happen back then either.

Now IF they are to advance the timeline (which they aren't) a new edition would be the right moment to do so. But as far as I know, nothing significantly new has been revealed about the timeline in the new rulebook.

Sorry to burst the bubble there. But the timeline advancing? Not gonna happen.

Gazak Blacktoof
03-07-2008, 11:44
I don't think it will ever happen. Its too destabilizing for GW as business and the emperor on the throne and how he got there is too large a part of the imperial background to destroy it.

Lord Damocles
03-07-2008, 11:48
Ive noticed recently comments /scriblings that point me to a theory about the direction that 40k may head in ,see what you think.
WD343 p37 mentions that the golden throne is failing.
Various locations -mention that workshop can now make bigger kits.
Gamesday Canada Jervis mentioned that Squats may re-emurge..
1. Makes the setting seem more Grim 'n Dark. Nothing much new here really...
2. Bigger kits sell well. If we're all buying Baneblades GW makes more money.
3. Sqats may re-emerge after the current armies have been updated IIRC. So at best they'll be years away...
4. You assume that 40K designers have a long-term plan :p

OK now my speculative theory
The Squats are indeed rediscovered ,their technology will enable the mechanicum to repair the golden throne however like the multi-belief Inquisition some won't use xenos technology,some won't want the newly found tech to be shared prefering instead to keep it for themselves(pos a STC holds the information),some will see it as a neccessary evil if it keeps the Emperor alive,all of which could bring about a new Civil war?as the various sides battle it out for control of said information,by bringing in the Squats /mechanicum it will allow new unbeforeseen vehicles/weaponry that would likely be very large/destructive(Squat Landtrain,Ordinatus,Titans),note the recent appearance of the Reaver Titan.

Anyway its my current theory your views.
Several problems I can see here (sorry :p) - Firstly, the Squats were never really lost. GW may say that they were eaten by 'Nids, but the more you think about this explanation, the less sense it makes:
- How could the Squat homeworlds have been eaten (remembering that they were near the galactic centre), when the 'Nids haven't pushed that far into the galaxy yet?
- How come all the other Squat worlds (eg. Golgotha) would have dissappeared?
- Imperial institutions included Squats (including the AdMech), and there's no reason to believe that they should all have vanished suddenly
Secondly, I'm not sure that the Squats are really viewed as Xenos by the Imperium. they've worked together before (Battle of Golgotha, Contagion of Ganymeade etc.), and the Imperium has attempted to integrate Squat tech with their own.

I'd think that it's more likely that GW may introduce the Demiurge into 40K in three or four years or so - making it clear to those who remember the Squats that they are in fact one and the same. In the meantime they'll introduce more large kits like the Baneblade, rumoured Thunderhawk etc. as a way of emptying gamer's wallets.
Or maybe I'm getting too old and synical... :D

Edzard
03-07-2008, 11:49
Isn't warmachine moving 1 year into the future of that world with each new book? I wouldn't mind that in 40k, but I can understand why GW wouldn't want to do such a thing.

Melchor
03-07-2008, 11:55
The thing with squats was that they were abhumans not xenos. Much like Ogryns and Ratlings. They are basically a stable mutated form of human. They have 'evolved'.

That is why they were allowed to work with the Imperium.

pookie
03-07-2008, 12:00
sqauts expertise was in plasma drives (iirc), so i doubt your theory. ( although on a side note, they could not have possible been totaly wiped out by the Nids, there was just too many of them, some enclaves must have survived!)

Vult
03-07-2008, 12:39
Isn't warmachine moving 1 year into the future of that world with each new book? I wouldn't mind that in 40k, but I can understand why GW wouldn't want to do such a thing.

This is exactly why I think a move forward is possible. Back in 3rd GW really had no competition. There was no reason to shake things up. Now there is a real threat to their gamer base. I do not know about other areas but around here WarMachine is kicking 40K's ass. It is near impossible to find a game, and I refuse to switch to WM because I simply have to much time and money invested in 40K, and I like the story more.

My personal opinion is that GW needs to grow some balls, and move this thing on...if it is a SETTING like people love to argue then it should not be anymore. Move it forward please...let something happen. Teasing is only fun for awhile then its just annoying.

pookie
03-07-2008, 12:44
My personal opinion is that GW needs to grow some balls, and move this thing on...if it is a SETTING like people love to argue then it should not be anymore. Move it forward please...let something happen. Teasing is only fun for awhile then its just annoying.

depends if your the one being teased or the one teasing :D

although on a more serious note, i agree its about time we had a bit of a move on at least, lets see the UM shake things up and join with the Tau! the DA found to be the traitors they are! and the BT show them (DA) what a real SM Legion er sorry Chapter is about... :evilgrin:

Melchor
03-07-2008, 12:52
Advancing the timeline is only fun for people who are already in the hobby. The veterans if you will. New players won't appreciate changes because they're not familiar with the old state of affairs.
And who are most likely to complain about changes to their army? Right, veterans. In all, I think the veterans in the 'annoyed' camp outnumber the veterans in the 'thrilled' camp.

And besides, the current setting works. You don't change something that works do you?

pookie
03-07-2008, 13:02
Advancing the timeline is only fun for people who are already in the hobby. The veterans if you will. New players won't appreciate changes because they're not familiar with the old state of affairs.
And who are most likely to complain about changes to their army? Right, veterans. In all, I think the veterans in the 'annoyed' camp outnumber the veterans in the 'thrilled' camp.

And besides, the current setting works. You don't change something that works do you?

ah, but im a vet and the time line has moved on since i started in this hobby, so why should it stop? the young uns ( or those new into the hobby), will catch up, keeping the story line as it is is stale and old, and is becoming tiring.

Vult
03-07-2008, 14:21
Advancing the timeline is only fun for people who are already in the hobby. The veterans if you will. New players won't appreciate changes because they're not familiar with the old state of affairs.
And who are most likely to complain about changes to their army? Right, veterans. In all, I think the veterans in the 'annoyed' camp outnumber the veterans in the 'thrilled' camp.

And besides, the current setting works. You don't change something that works do you?

Like I said....it is not working...at least around here...WarMachine is kicking 40K's ass :(


ah, but im a vet and the time line has moved on since i started in this hobby, so why should it stop? the young uns ( or those new into the hobby), will catch up, keeping the story line as it is is stale and old, and is becoming tiring.

QFT!!

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-07-2008, 14:33
I don't really think GW moving the setting forward a year with each new book would make any difference. It would also be impossible with the way GW does books compared to how PP does it (release something for all). But really what it comes down to would be that even if they move the setting forward a little it's still the same game. You are not going to convert hordes of players to 40k (or get them back) because planet X have been captured/recaptured, or because character Y have been killed/promoted/kidnapped/whatever, because ultimately it doesn't actually matter.

Eldrad died during the last Black Crusade, but so what? It is more of a setting than a storyline because it's the framework that's important. The characters act within that framework, but the framework will manage just fine without any single character(bar a selected few, like the Emperor).

If Warmachine is killing 40k in some areas I don't think it's because there story advances a little, but rather because it's a fun game and they would rather play that. Or because they prefer that kind a setting to the 40k one.

Personally I'd put my money on them liking the game more. Especially since it's perfectly possible to have all the rules and none of the fluff for Warmachine as all the rules are on unit cards you can buy separately. And you know, it is a fun game.

pookie
03-07-2008, 14:42
(Squat Landtrain,Ordinatus,Titans),note the recent appearance of the Reaver Titan.

Anyway its my current theory your views.

the Ordinatus is a Ad Mech vehicle, not Squat, and the Reaver Pattern Titan has been around since Titan Legions, it isnt new, just they (FW) have released a model for it.

Sami
03-07-2008, 14:42
As Tyranids close-in Terra, the Golden Throne fails completely and the Emperor is finally killed. The Imperium is plundered into chaos (general chaos and Chaos chaos), worlds are cut off due to the lack of the Astronomican, blah blah blah. However, the nids are now unable to get to Terra due to this (I'm assuming that the "Tyranids are following the Astronomican to Terra" plotline is still considered canon), meaning their threat to humanity is lowered.

Then, hurrah! A deus ex machina is unleashed upon the 40k world that has the Emperor reborn as the Star Child or whatever. He then goes on a crusade to purge the parts of the Imperium that conspired to keep him as a corpse in the box and the Imperium is plunged into civil war. Orks go on the rampage, Chaos floods through, Tau expand, Necrons reach Mars and wake up the C'Tan having a kip there, and then GW releases Warhammer 50k.

Or something.

Melchor
03-07-2008, 14:50
@pookie: The timeline has advanced? Not in any significant way I can remember. And the death of the Squats doesn't count as that wasn't realy fluff-driven. ;) I started by the end of 2nd ed. mind you so I may have missed things that have changed between RT and 2nd.
I can see smaller changes happening. But big changes (like the Emperor kicking the bucket or the UM's siding with the Tau) I find hard to believe.

@Vult: It might be kicking 40k's ass over there, but I don't see what you're describing over here.

TimLeeson
03-07-2008, 14:53
I really dont see how moving it into a new year means there HAS to be any radical change ? You can have minor changes, hell GW could cash in on it with smaller things like a new space marine founding and a campaign using them.. I dont see why it has to be MAJOR changes like the golden throne finally giving up or the hive-fleets eating half of the galaxy in the first day of the new millenium.. This whole topic reminds me of the eve of the year 2000 when everyone was talking about major changes and the next day it wasnt THAT different...I think a date change could just open it up to small new things you could see once in a while like a new marine founding or a new race rising to power. It would make it feel more thematic and cinematic and make it feel like the games played ARE actually changing something (i.e. 2008 is the first year of the 42nd millenium so all campaigns/games played in this year are in that first year) to me at least it would make it "feel" more exciting.

pookie
03-07-2008, 15:05
@pookie: The timeline has advanced? Not in any significant way I can remember. And the death of the Squats doesn't count as that wasn't realy fluff-driven. ;) I started by the end of 2nd ed. mind you so I may have missed things that have changed between RT and 2nd.
I can see smaller changes happening. But big changes (like the Emperor kicking the bucket or the UM's siding with the Tau) I find hard to believe.

best example i can think of, off the top of my head is that the nids had only just invaded ( Behamoth and Kraken ) when 2nd was around, since then Levithan has happened. It has advanced, but not drastically though ( we are on Levithan attacking now).

i can strangly see the UM teaming up with the Tua, even though they are the poster Boys, they ( according to some of the fluff ) know that the Codex that Roboute wrote is outdated ( tactics had to change when fighting the Nids/Crons ), and remeber, the Emp plan did involve letting useful Xenos races being assimilated into his 'Great Plan' for humanity.

**edit**

no your right, it hasnt in a significant way really when ive given it some thought.

Chem-Dog
03-07-2008, 15:14
WD343 p37 mentions that the golden throne is failing.
Various locations -mention that workshop can now make bigger kits.
Gamesday Canada Jervis mentioned that Squats may re-emurge.

Golden throne was only ever meant as a stop gap, IIRC it wasn't designed for this purpose at all. If pushed I would be tempted to say it's just another piece of backstory to give the feel that the universe is closing in on humanity for the final kill, something to perpetuate the "End of Times" theme (which has been used in WHFB too), I don't think GW will kill the Emperor, it devoids the last 10 000 years into There was an Emperor but now there isn't.

Bigger kits aren't an issue with foward moving storyline, are they? Bigger kits are simply the offshoot of better technology, more investment and a confirmed desire for the product.

Squats, pft. Forget about the Squats. IF (and it IS a big if ;)) there is a new race coming, it might well be the Demiurg, who are commonly held to be the Squats' design decendant, there is no imperative for GW's designers to make the ANYTHING like squats in any way. :)


sqauts expertise was in plasma drives (iirc), so i doubt your theory. ( although on a side note, they could not have possible been totaly wiped out by the Nids, there was just too many of them, some enclaves must have survived!)

Squats were adept at many forms of technology, simply by virtue of the fact that they weren't bound by the techno superstition of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Simply put, they could improvise and invent.


Problem with progressing the story line really is the simple fact that for it to do anything than to grind on into a new millenium with little change (and thus be a totally pointless progression) there needs to be something Radical happen to the galaxy which will upset the ballance of power for the races:-
Emperor Dies, Imperium is royally screwed.
The Dragon awakes on Mars, Mechanicus Civil war, Imperium Screwed.
Orks on one huge Waaaaagh, Everyone (except Orks) Screwed.
All Primarchs that arent 100% confirmed as dead come back and kick ass monumentally, Everyone Not Imperium Screwed.
Emperor Reborn, New age of Imperial power and prosperity is ushered in. Anyone not wearing an aquilla. SCREWED.
For 2 and a half versions of the game now, they've been emphasising the importance of giving us 10K years to mess about in, What went before is legend, what comes after is darkness.....

What's wrong with a little hope?

Ect

Lord Damocles
03-07-2008, 16:15
Problem with progressing the story line really is the simple fact that for it to do anything than to grind on into a new millenium with little change (and thus be a totally pointless progression)

Progressing the timeline doesn't HAVE to result in the end of the universe as we know it. It's not like everyones just sitting around waiting for the new millenium so that they can all implement their doomsday devices at midnight.

If nothing else, progressing the timeline by a year or two for every 'real' year would at least limit the frankly absurd timeframe which some forces are currently opperating in.
Are we really to believe that in the last 200 or so years, the Ultramarines could have deafeated a Tyranid fleet, lost their entire 1st company, fought one of the Imperium's largest conflicts against the Necrons, fought against the expansion of the Tau, faced down an invasion from the Orks of Charadon etc and still have enough marines to function as a fighting force?!?

GW make a big thing of conflicts lasting decades or centuries, of warp jumps taking months, and new technology taking millenia to spread throughout the Imperium, but then still claim with a straight face that characters are able to zip around the galaxy and fight in dozens of conflicts in 999M41 alone...

oCoYoRoAoKo
03-07-2008, 16:22
I really doubt they will do something like kill off the emp/have him reborn. there is one simple reason for this: The mere fact that the emp is on the golden throne is the whole point of 40k. so much of the background and current material revolves around the Horus Heresy with Horus throwing a strop and almost killing daddy. lets assume he died for a moment - we get a whole edition dedicated to this and all of the new players dont even know (or if they do, they wouldnt care - you want to know whats happening NOW) what happened before the galaxy got into the state it is - "there was this great god-dude but he is dead now so it doesnt matter". Now lets assume the Emp got ressurrected - if this is the state of the next edition, what does it matter that he was dead/on the throne in the first place? he resumes his great work, restarts the crusade, beats off chaos and voila, we have a system full of the bright optimism and bunny rabbits. the only way they could do this well i think is if the emp came back and there was a time of massive civil war.

Cy.

Templar Ben
03-07-2008, 17:15
Progressing the timeline doesn't HAVE to result in the end of the universe as we know it. It's not like everyones just sitting around waiting for the new millenium so that they can all implement their doomsday devices at midnight.

If nothing else, progressing the timeline by a year or two for every 'real' year would at least limit the frankly absurd timeframe which some forces are currently opperating in.
Are we really to believe that in the last 200 or so years, the Ultramarines could have deafeated a Tyranid fleet, lost their entire 1st company, fought one of the Imperium's largest conflicts against the Necrons, fought against the expansion of the Tau, faced down an invasion from the Orks of Charadon etc and still have enough marines to function as a fighting force?!?

GW make a big thing of conflicts lasting decades or centuries, of warp jumps taking months, and new technology taking millenia to spread throughout the Imperium, but then still claim with a straight face that characters are able to zip around the galaxy and fight in dozens of conflicts in 999M41 alone...

I agree. Forgotten Realms has slowly advanced in a similar manner. In fact they used that to explain the rules changes from 1st to 2nd to 3rd edition. I also enjoyed BattleTech advancing from 3025 until about 3057. Someone pointed out that balance was lost after that but I haven't found any sign of that but I didn't play 3060 so it could very well be.

Then again I have stated a half dozen times how I think GW should handle the advancement as well as army and unit releases. :angel:

Torga_DW
03-07-2008, 20:51
Nothing has really changed, other than a new title for the current setting. People keep forgetting that since the beginning, the imperium has always been 24 hours away from total destruction. And every new edition, gw likes to remind ppl of that fact. Although i would have a good laugh if gw did advance the timeline to where the imperium had collapsed, and take space marines away as a playable army. I'm lol just to think of it. hehehe.

Chem-Dog
03-07-2008, 21:04
Progressing the timeline doesn't HAVE to result in the end of the universe as we know it. It's not like everyones just sitting around waiting for the new millenium so that they can all implement their doomsday devices at midnight.

Well, granted it doesn't have to be like this but the tone of stuff recently really is pointing to the fact that Humanity is and always was doomed to expire, the only real question being how many others would it take with it?!

Drogmir
03-07-2008, 21:06
You know I'm thinking that the plot is advancing just really, really slowly.

I mean there is a time lapse between the 3rd Battle for Armageddon and the Battle for Medusa V right?

In both real time and in the game's time line things are moving forwards just at a rate where nothing super major can happen

Richter Kless
03-07-2008, 22:05
I just love it how everyone throws around these ideas and really think they are good.

The Ultramarines join the Tau.
Yeah, I'm sure all the Ultramarine players will like that.

The Dark Angels become traitors.
I'm sure the Dark Angel players will like that.

And if the Emperor dies, it's game over for the Imperium. Which won't please all the Imperial players.


The timeline doesn't need to advance. And the ideas that people bring up in these threads are always so godawfully terrible, that I really wonder if they themselves are taking it seriously.

ChaosBeast
03-07-2008, 22:12
surely this is what the summer campains are for? anyway, GW has really shot itself in the foot, putting the date at m41.99999 because if they do advance the storyline even a year, it ceases to be Warhammer 40,000 and becomes Warhammer 41,000.

i say let it stay as it is and just fill in the raging gaps in the background where nothing happens for about 500 years

juicifer
04-07-2008, 00:00
Eldrad is dead, that's significant I'd say. Tyranids mutating and Ghazgul taking his show on the road, not so much.

Condottiere
04-07-2008, 04:28
40K gets retconned back to 40.001K, since the Ecclesiarchy just discovered a slight discrepancy in the original calculation of the Imperial calendar.