PDA

View Full Version : HE causing terror against goblins?



eleveninches
03-07-2008, 12:11
There are 2 spells in the lores of magic that make a unit cause fear, or cause terror if they already cause fear. If I cast that spell on a high elf unit, which of the following would apply:
1. Causes fear against everything else, but terror agaisnt goblins
2. Causes fear against everything (including goblins)

Condottiere
03-07-2008, 12:50
You mean Walking Death and Shades of Death. If cast on a HE unit, that unit would cause fear. If cast on a HE unit that isn't outnumbered by a factor of 2 (IIRC) by a specific goblin unit, that specific goblin unit would have to test against terror. At least, that's my interpretation.

Lord Snerual
03-07-2008, 13:51
no they wouldn't. just because they are HE. it is said by the goblins that they would have to test for FEAR. never for terror. in the goblin rules there is only the rule that they fear them. they dont mind about what the HE causes.

Griefbringer
03-07-2008, 14:07
Fear does not stack to cause terror. At least not by default.

Lord Aries
03-07-2008, 14:13
Well its tricky... HE cause fear to goblins under certain circumstances. The spell specifies that if you already cause fear, you now cause terror.


By the rules, HE do not have fear as a special rule. By casting the spell on them, they now have fear. The special rule that makes goblins take fear against HE is part of the goblin's rules not the HE rules, therefore I can't side with you about them causing terror.

Lord Snerual
03-07-2008, 14:35
that's what i wanted to say, but as you can read, it was in a strange way to say it.

so no, gobbos do not test for terror against HE in this way

Tarian
03-07-2008, 19:41
Well its tricky... HE cause fear to goblins under certain circumstances. The spell specifies that if you already cause fear, you now cause terror.


By the rules, HE do not have fear as a special rule. By casting the spell on them, they now have fear. The special rule that makes goblins take fear against HE is part of the goblin's rules not the HE rules, therefore I can't side with you about them causing terror.

Hrm.. if the necessary conditions are met, wouldn't the HE cause fear already?

Under psychology rules in the BRB, you never take fear tests unless facing a unit that causes fear. Ok, I hope we all agree on that one.

Using this, I conclude that if Goblins have to take a fear test against HE that they don't massively outnumber, the HE unit counts as causing fear, otherwise there would be no reason to test.

Walking Death gives a unit fear, and if they have fear it bumps up to terror. Against large blocks of gobs that don't fear the elves, they now have to take fear tests.

However: Do the HE cause fear in the goblins if they don't have enough goblins? Yes. Therefore, it seems that the HE cause fear against the smaller goblin units. Walking Death "upgrades" fear into terror if the unit already causes fear.

Therefore, in my opinion, units that would have to take fear against HE would now have to take terror, and units that would not normally take fear tests are only subject to fear.

lparigi34
04-07-2008, 00:08
IMHO

The spell makes the Elves to cause fear, but Gobbos already fear them. Fearing something that causes fear is not like it causes "double fear".

The spell rule is clear about upgrading Fear causing units to Terror causing units, nothing else.

So I have to disagree with the interpretation that Gobbos will suffer terror from Elves under the effect of the spell.

RavenBloodwind
04-07-2008, 04:19
Just for grins and giggles...

Goblins have the fear elves rule which states they fear elves that they do not outnumber by 2:1 ratio.

I think we're all clear on that part.

Now, to the crux of the OPs question:
Elves do not CAUSE fear in goblins. Goblins simply FEAR elves under certain circumstances. It is a property of the goblin not the elf.

Making the elf cause fear using a spell now gives the goblin 2 reasons to fear the elves but they don't stack to become terror.

That said, this came up with wood elves vs goblins in a game I played a while back. I chose to cast the fear spell on some nearby dryads to remove any confusion.

decker_cky
04-07-2008, 07:09
I don't think the elves would cause terror. As has been mentioned, looking at what the rules for the elves is, they don't cause fear.

However, feel free to cast it on a lion chariot or on your phoenix guard. :)

Gazak Blacktoof
04-07-2008, 12:59
I agree with those that say the evles cause terror.

In situations where goblins fear elves that they don't outnumber 2 to 1, the elves effectively cause fear.

Therefore in the case of walking death (?), that specifically upgrades fear to terror, it would certainly make the elves cause terror in goblins that don't outnumber them at least 2 to 1.

Other methods of making elves cause fear will just mean that goblins fear the elves no matter the respective unit sizes becuase they don't include any "stacking ability".

As a greenskin plater I don't see how it can be interpretted any differently.

Condottiere
04-07-2008, 13:45
I suspect it depends on the precise wording regarding how Goblins view Elves. I don't have the book available, so I can't really say one way or the other.

woytek
04-07-2008, 14:28
Goblins fear elves unless the goblins outnumber the elves 2:1. This is a rule for the goblins and not the elves. The elves still do not cause fear because otherwise all units would be affected. Thus with this spell the elves will NOT cause terror.

theunwantedbeing
04-07-2008, 14:33
They just cause fear.
There's nothing stating that goblins who dont outnumber elves 2:1 will be subject to terror from them.

There may be 2 magic spells that make fear causers cause terror but they are magic spells and it is specifically stated in their description.
I doubt it says the same in the goblin fearing elves rule.

Just fear. Nothing more.
Although the goblins will still fear fear causing elves that they outnumber 2:1.

Gazak Blacktoof
04-07-2008, 15:24
My reasoning is the same as Tarian's. The goblins fear the elves which is equivalent to the elves causing fear in certain situations.

I don't think it matters at all that the rule for fear is part of the goblin rules rather than those for elves the end result is the same.

woytek
04-07-2008, 16:02
My reasoning is the same as Tarian's. The goblins fear the elves which is equivalent to the elves causing fear in certain situations.

I don't think it matters at all that the rule for fear is part of the goblin rules rather than those for elves the end result is the same.

The point is that 'goblins fear elves if not 2:1' is not equal to 'elves cause fear'. The spell only provides terror if the elves cause fear and since they don't, they do not get terror.

lparigi34
04-07-2008, 16:28
My reasoning is the same as Tarian's. The goblins fear the elves which is equivalent to the elves causing fear in certain situations.

I don't think it matters at all that the rule for fear is part of the goblin rules rather than those for elves the end result is the same.

So, if a units of Gobbos face an Elven unit that already causes fear for any other reason and do not outnumber them 2:1, the Gobbos will suffer terror instead?

So I guess that Gobbos not outnumbering CO Knight units 2:1 will suffer terror from them?

nahhh...

Jerrus
04-07-2008, 16:33
I would rule it to Terror vs Goblins (which do not outnumber by 2:1)

Jerrus
04-07-2008, 16:36
...So I guess that Gobbos not outnumbering CO Knight units 2:1 will suffer terror from them?

nahhh...

It's the spell that upgrades fear to terror, not a general rule.

Fear + Fear = no Terror

Fear + Shades of Death (or Walking Death) = Terror

Xyon
04-07-2008, 16:37
if you want a terror causing block, cast it on phoenix guard or lion chariot as said above, otherwise the goblins will only have fear test against the elf unit.

Deacon Bane
04-07-2008, 16:42
Just to add my two cents. I thought about trying this combo at a Conflict tourney in '07, and Cory Burns from GW Canada said it doesn't work like that because the Elves don't have the "Cause Fear" rule. So no Terror. But I would think that two wizards casting on the same unit would create Terror.

Jerrus
04-07-2008, 16:44
So basically causing fear and something fearing something aren't the same thing, even though it's the same rule that governs it?

lparigi34
04-07-2008, 18:53
Just to add my two cents. I thought about trying this combo at a Conflict tourney in '07, and Cory Burns from GW Canada said it doesn't work like that because the Elves don't have the "Cause Fear" rule. So no Terror. But I would think that two wizards casting on the same unit would create Terror.

I agree, and I would let this go, but the Gobbo thing is quite different

lparigi34
04-07-2008, 19:09
So basically causing fear and something fearing something aren't the same thing, even though it's the same rule that governs it?

Nop... If you cause fear on everybody because you are ugly or have horns is one thing

If you don't generally cause fear but someone fears you because he's a wussy it is totally different.

Now, somebody already fears you because he's a wussy and suddenly you grow horns, he will keep fearing you.

FEAR DO NOT STACK

If there is a Spell that makes Fear Causing units to cause Terror, it is just that, a Spell effect, but it never ever implies that Fear do stack.

Assume there is a spell that makes a normal unit to cause Fear, but without the further wording that in some cases it upgrades fear to terror, the casting it on a Fear causing unit will basically have a null effect.

Gobbo Lord
04-07-2008, 19:18
Goblins fear elves they do not outnumber at least 2 to 1. If the elves cause fear the goblins just fear them all the time, even when they outnumber them, maybe those particular elves have really pointy ears. (fluff)

What some people are suggesting is that the lion chariot (causes fear) would cause terror on a warmachine crewed by goblins, nope. Fear does not stack (Rules)

Hey if my gigantic spider doesnt cause fear then you cant have terror in this case no way (stupid yet strangely justified)

Gazak Blacktoof
04-07-2008, 23:39
@ Gobo Lord

Nobody is suggesting that. Read the rules for the spells.

As to whether they stack in this case is up for dispute and I don't really want to argue about it. I've already said all I'm going to say on the matter.

Dalamyr the Fleetmaster
05-07-2008, 05:26
Yeah fear tests the unit itself does'nt cause fear only the goblins are scared of them so it fear i'm afraid

le bard
05-07-2008, 21:57
i think if you cast it on a unit that causes fear already (like phoenix guard) so that they now cause terror, the goblins would have to test terror, just like if anything else caused terror.

xragg
06-07-2008, 15:38
Lion chariots and phoenix gaurd would cause terror, all else would cause fear. When you cast the spell, it grants the unit the ability "cause fear" and upgrades that ability to "cause terror" if it already has "cause fear". Most HE units dont have the "cause fear" ability. Goblins fear HE when not outnumbering 2:1, not grant HE the ability "cause fear". Huge difference there.