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Emresh
27-10-2005, 20:44
I've been thinking about the Dogs of War problem and all the various issues surrounding it (lack of magic items, confusing DoW/Allies/RoR/Contingent combination issues, tec.) and think I may have come up with something of a solution.

Note that all of the following are meant to completely replace the RH-like list that the Dogs of War army currently has. Enjoy and please feel free to offer any criticism/suggestions for each piece as they are all really just a first draft of a wip. Thanks!

Emresh
27-10-2005, 20:45
Removed by me.

Emresh
27-10-2005, 20:48
Removed by me.

Emresh
27-10-2005, 20:50
Removed by me.

mageith
27-10-2005, 22:02
Tilean units may be allied with the following armies: Dogs of War, Empire, Dwarves, Bretonnia, and High Elves.

Why not chaos warriors?



Lord: Merchant Prince – 90pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 6 5 4 4 3 5 3 9

Why only three attacks?


Mount: A Tilean Captain may be mounted on a warhorse at +10pts (+15pts for a Merchant Prince.) A Merchant Prince may be mounted on a pegasus at +40pts.

Why does warhorse cost more but not weapons for Prince?



Troops

Core: Pikemen - 10pts
Pikes are the infantry weapon of choice in Tilea. With weapons twice as long as a spear and longer even than a lance, a well drilled unit of pikemen is a nearly impenetrable wall of steel.
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7

Unit Size: 5+

5? Why? This was abused in the old wood elves.



Armour: May be given pavises at +2pts per model.

What does a pavise do?



Special: Field Guns – 80pts
Tilean armies are almost perpetually on the move from one skirmish or battle to the next and so cannot afford the delay of carrying the massive Great Cannons used by the Empire. Therefore, they use smaller caliber, and thus easier to move, guns to provide artillery support for their more conventional troops.

galloper guns? Consider galloper guns.



Options: The crew may be given mantlets at +40pts.

What do mantlets do?



Rare: Tilean Duellists – 9pts
...
Unit Size: 5-20
Equipment: 2 Hand Weapons
Weapons: May be given throwing knives at +3pts per model
Armour: May be given light armour at +1pt per model and cloaks at +1pt per model.
Upgrades: The unit may have one of its models upgraded to a Champion at +10pts.
Special Rules: All attacks (including ranged attacks) from Tilean Duellists count as poisoned. Tilean Duellists use the Skirmish Rules.

No pistols? What do cloaks do?



Magic Items:

Magic Weapon – Cavalry’s Bane 30pts
In addition, the bearer gains +1S against cavalry and chariots.

perhaps 'mounted'? Since your rule would not include characters riding on monsters.



Talisman - Lucky Coin 25pts
Carrying the first coin one has ever gained (by whatever means) is always considered lucky in Tilea and in some rare instances this belief even turns out to be true.
If a character carrying the Lucky Coin is about to lose their final wound, they may take an immediate 4+ ward save to negate the attack. No more than one ward save may be made against any given attack.

Isn't this essentially a 4+ ward save for 25 points. Sounds like a very good deal.



Enchanted Item – Secret Chest 35pts
Magical treasures are hoarded by Tileans whenever they can get their hands on them and they will often keep them in a hidden or camouflaged chest separate from the rest of their wealth. They will often keep this chest with them to avoid theft by their servants, but may well reveal the chest and its contents in times of uttermost need. Spreading word of the wondrous treasures being offered for renewed effort will often fill the heart with greed-forged courage and turn the tide of a seemingly lost battle.
Once per game, the character may reveal the chest and its contents to immediately rally all fleeing units in the army. Due to the enchanted nature of the treasure within the chest, this counts as a spell cast at power level 3.

Essentially a bound spell?



Magic Banner - The Golden Legion Standard 50pts
In the dim past of Tilea’s ancient history, the Golden Legion was said to have been the first force in the old world to use pikes as its primary weapon, and it marched like an unstoppable juggernaut across the land, becoming a key factor in the forging of Tilea as a nation in itself. The legion often fought and overcame forces many times their size with seeming ease through a combination of training, discipline, courage, and sheer determination. To this day, the legion’s standard is carried into battle by the greatest Tilean regiment of the day, lending them some of the incredible skill of the legion itself.
Any unit containing the Golden Legion Standard always counts as having one more rank than it actually does (ie. If the unit currently has three ranks, it counts as having four). This can take the unit’s rank bonus one level beyond it’s normal maximum.
Isn't this an inferior war banner (25 pts) for 50 points. It's power would be negated if flanked, no?

Mage Ith

Emresh
27-10-2005, 23:51
Removed by me.

mageith
28-10-2005, 05:09
Because, despite the fact that they are great fighters in their own right, my conception of a Merchant Prince is not that of a full time professional soldier (they have many other matters to occupy their minds) so they were given Lord level abilities but not at the level of most combat oriented Lords.

I used to have that opinion until I read my latest history book ARMIES AND WARFARE IN THE MIDDLE AGES. There I learned Kings and Princes were expected to fight along with their armies.







This seems to be the standard minimum for most infantry units. Maybe I should raise it to 10+ though?

I believe the standard is ten and goes as low as five for some skirmishers.





While it would certainly be fitting, it would remove the whole point of the RoR. This way, an army could potentially have field guns in their special choices and galloper guns in their rare. :evilgrin:

So?




Your right. My only concern would be in the case of ridden monsters a the monster and the rider can be targetted seperately. Would the bonus work against the monster, the rider, or both?

Either.

If you really want to do the DoW a favor, get rid of obligatory paymaster or at least give them five characters, like Bretonnia and/or get rid of the everybody panics thing for the paymaster. It's soooo fifth edition.

Mage Ith

mageith
28-10-2005, 05:16
A Dogs of War mercenary army has a few additional rules:

1. One character in the army must be declared as the paymaster (an army’s battle standard bearer may be the paymaster as well). As long as the paymaster is alive, all units within 12” of the paymaster become stubborn as their greed overcomes all other concerns. However, should the paymaster be killed during a battle every unit in the army must take an immediate Ld test to avoid fleeing as they realize that they will not be getting paid regardless of the outcome.

Stubborn. Is this your rule or is it found somewhere?

Mage Ith

Odin
28-10-2005, 11:48
Stubborn. Is this your rule or is it found somewhere?

Mage Ith

Er, Stubborn is a standard special rule from the WHFB rulebook.

Duellists as Rare choices?! No pistols? No cavalry or in fact variety of any kind?

anarchistica
28-10-2005, 12:07
The Stubborn thing he made up himself.

Emresh
29-10-2005, 01:01
Removed by me.

Emresh
01-11-2005, 23:26
Removed by me.

mageith
02-11-2005, 03:45
Enchanted Item – Secret Chest 35pts
Merchant Prince Only
Magical treasures are hoarded by Tileans whenever they can get their hands on them and they will often keep them in a hidden or camouflaged chest separate from the rest of their wealth. They will often keep this chest with them to avoid theft by their servants, but may well reveal the chest and its contents in times of uttermost need. Spreading word of the wondrous treasures being offered for renewed effort will often fill the heart with greed-forged courage and turn the tide of a seemingly lost battle.
Once per game, the character may reveal the chest and its contents to immediately rally all fleeing units in the army.

Actually it's probably something I would take to offset the horrible experiences I have with dead paymasters.

Once per game: At any time? Apparently always works!
35 points: Pretty expensive but if you need it, it's cheap. Really nothing else to compare to is there?
Fluff: How to fleeing units hear of the great offer?

Emresh
03-11-2005, 00:29
Removed by me.

mageith
04-11-2005, 03:00
Magic Items:

Magic Weapon – Cavalry’s Bane 30pts
Tilea was late in adopting the use of warhorses in battle, and for many centuries their leaders would find themselves at a disadvantage fighting from foot against the mounted champions of other races and nations. This blade was an early attempt to rectify the situation, in this case through the use of magic.
The Cavalry’s Bane counts as a magical hand weapon. The bearer always strikes first in the combat phase (if faced with an opponent carrying a magic item with this effect, attacks are made in Initiative order). In addition, the bearer gains +1S against cavalry, chariots, and ridden monsters.

ridden monsters? or monsters and/or riders of monsters?

I usually use the Sword of Might, so this would be better. I'd certainly pay 35 points for it. It seems fair.




Magic Armour - Bodyguard’s Helm 10pts
Fortunate indeed is the Tilean able to afford a bodyguard with unquestionable loyalty for it is said that even if such an employee should be slain, they will continue to watch over their employer should he wear their helm.
The Bodyguard’s Helm provides a 6+ armour save that may be combined with normal armour and shields. In addition, any character wearing the Bodyguard’s Helm may re-roll any failed ‘Look out sir!’ rolls. The result of this re-roll must be accepted even if it is another failure.

Probably a tad cheap but not more than 15 points.
Can't be combined with magic armor and shields???? "can be combined with other armor as normal" would be better wording.



Talisman - Lucky Coin 25pts
One Use Only
Carrying the first coin one has ever gained (by whatever means) is always considered lucky in Tilea and in some rare instances this belief even turns out to be true.
If a character carrying the Lucky Coin is about to lose their final wound, they may take an immediate 4+ ward save to negate the attack.

Probably worth it.



Magic Banner - The Golden Legion Standard 50pts
In the dim past of Tilea’s ancient history, the Golden Legion was said to have been the first force in the old world to use pikes as its primary weapon, and it marched like an unstoppable juggernaut across the land, becoming a key factor in the forging of Tilea as a nation in itself. The legion often fought and overcame forces many times their size with seeming ease through a combination of training, discipline, courage, and sheer determination. To this day, the legion’s standard is carried into battle by the greatest Tilean regiment of the day, lending them some of the incredible skill of the legion itself.
Any unit containing the Golden Legion Standard always counts as having twice the number of models that it actually has.
Outnumber gives +1 CR and takes 1 CR away from the opponent. This items doesn't guarantee Outnumber. If it did, it would be well costed at 50 points. So I'd say 40 points. I'd limit it to infantry (or maybe even pikes).

Your items all see useful but certainly not overwhelming.

Other items to consider:
+1 armor for 30 points. Seems to be popular in other armies.

However, even with all these items, there isn't much selection for Dow/Tilia.

Mage Ith

Emresh
04-11-2005, 22:17
Removed by me.

Emresh
04-11-2005, 22:24
Removed by me.

Emresh
04-11-2005, 22:25
Removed by me.

Emresh
04-11-2005, 22:29
Removed by me.

Easy E
04-11-2005, 22:31
I do not play WHFB so I don't have anything constructive to add. Instead, I just want to encourage you to continue this project. Of all the WHFB armies, the Dogs of War interest me the most. Your concept is inventive and allows for a very unique army. Keep up the good work, I find this thread inspiring.

mageith
05-11-2005, 19:29
Characters
(In all instances of two points costs being listed for equipment, the first cost is for Lord characters and the second is for Heroes.)
Lord: Khan – 97pts

Nice touch.

Devil Wolf
Devil wolves are a larger, more viscous

vicious?



Troops
Core: Hobgoblin Wolfboyz - 15pts
The bulk of the numberless hobgoblin horde is made up of hobgoblin raiders riding giant wolves. While normally content to raid and steal, these warriors can quickly become a force to be reckoned with when gathered en mass.
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 3 3 3 3 1 2 1 6
Unit Size: 5+
Equipment: Wolves, Hand Weapons, Bows

I actually have a goblin wolfrider army that is 0-7-1. Your rider costs 3 more points for 1 point of BS. That's a big difference.




Armour: May be given light armour at +2pts per model and/or shields at +2pts per model.
Upgrades: The unit may have one of its models upgraded to a Standard Bearer at +14pts, another upgraded to a Musician at +7pts, and another upgraded to a Champion at +14pts.
Special Rules: Hobgoblin Wolfboyz always count as Fast Cavalry and suffer from Greenskin Animosity.

All these upgrades cost more than for goblins. Good news is that they don't lose their fast cav status. Bad news is they can't lose their fast cav status.



0-1 Sneaky Gits – 6pts
While most hobgoblins who are to feeble to master a wolf end up fed to those very same wolves, some have enough innate cunning to be of use to the khans. For their part, the khans are more than willing to sacrifice these weaklings in forward actions intercepting enemy units or sneaking into the enemy camps to commit acts of sabotage and murder.
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 3 3 3 3 1 2 1 6
Unit Size: 5-15
Equipment: Two Hand Weapons
Weapons: May be given short bows at +2pt per model.
Armour: May be given cloaks at +1pt per model.
Upgrades: The unit may have one of its models upgraded to a Champion at +10pts.
Special Rules: Sneaky Gits are Skirmishers, may use the Scout ability, and suffer from Greenskin Animosity.

Very expensive again, by about two points. Cloaks and fluff don't match, IMO. Perhaps the scouting ability would. Why 0-1? Why not "Does not count toward core"?



Special: Devil Boyz – 22pts
Only the greatest and most successful hobgoblin warriors may hope to be allowed to ride into battle on the back of one of the great devil wolves. These warriors are considered blessed by their brethren and form elite bands called devil boyz in honor of their association with their viscous mounts.
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 3 3 3 1 3 1 6
Devil Wolf
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
9 4 0 4 3 1 4 2 4

These are very good. 3 Str4 attacks per model? Would I pay ten more points of WS and two Str 4 attacks vs 1 Str 3? Maybe but no more. I'd make them special AND require a larger rider unit to support it. Right now you could have more Devils than riders.




Unit Size: 5+
Equipment: Devil Wolves, Light Armour, Hand Weapons, Bows
Weapons: May be given spears at +1pt per model.
Armour: May be given shields at +2pts per model.

Why two points for shields?



Upgrades: The unit may have one of its models upgraded to a Standard Bearer at +14pts, another upgraded to a Musician at +7pts, and another upgraded to a Champion at +14pts. Up to one unit of Devil Boyz in the army may carry a magic banner worth up to 50pts.
Special Rules: Devil Boyz always count as Fast Cavalry and suffer from Greenskin Animosity.

Same comments as for riders. I try to make my SB and champions about the same cost as an unimproved model in the unit and the musician half of that.



Rare: Hobgoblin War Chariots – 37pts
Elite hobgoblin warriors must often fight off challenges to their status with, more often than not, lethal results. The victor will seize the deceased’s possessions, including their wolf. If the wolves so gathered cannot be used for breading

breading? as in pudding? Think you mean breeding.


or are too valuable to trade off for whatever reason, they will often be used to pull light chariots into battle. These chariots are gloated over by their owners as symbols of success and wealth in the tribe, but are generally made smaller than other greenskin chariots in order to keep up with the rapid maneuvers of the rest of the hobgoblin horde. As usual, these chariots tend to group together in elite units rather than mix with their “lesser” brethren.
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
- - - 4 4 3 - - -
Elite Hobgoblin Crew
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 3 3 3 1 3 1 6
Unit Size: 3-12
Crew: 1 Elite Hobgoblin
Animals: 2 Wolves
Equipment: The hobgoblin crew are equipped with light armor, hand weapons, and bows.
Options: The chariots may be given a second Hobgoblin crew at +9pts per model and/or a third wolf at +8pts per model. The chariot may be given scythes at +10pts per model.
Special Rules: Fast Cavalry, 5+ armour save, D3 impact hits.

I like these. But more expensive than TK similar chariots and without fear. I'd never by scythes. No one can accuse you of cheesiness as you tend, IMO, to overcost stuff.

No comments on magic items.

Mage Ith

Reabe
07-11-2005, 19:18
Hey, how about posting this at the Black Tavern? It's one of the largest Dogs of War forums out there on the internet and we're currently trying out ideas for a new Dogs of War army book: The Black Tavern (http://s8.invisionfree.com/Black_Tavern)

Emresh
11-11-2005, 00:13
Removed by me.

Emresh
11-11-2005, 00:23
Removed by me.

Emresh
17-11-2005, 00:13
Removed by me.

Emresh
01-12-2005, 18:57
Removed by me.

Emresh
01-12-2005, 18:58
Removed by me.

Emresh
07-12-2005, 00:02
Those few of you who've been watching this thread will notice that I've removed all my posts from it. I've done this because, as I was finishing up the halfling fluff, I was going over some of the basic rules, concepts, and various other ideas and issues that were wanderring through my head, and decided that their were some fundemental as well as implementational problems to address before this was continued. So I've removed my own posts and will probably let this thread die (or the mods can remove it if they feel like it) and start up a fresh one at a later date, once I've had a chance to address these issues. Thanks for all your help so far, and hopefully we'll be working on this again soon! :)