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Kerill
04-07-2008, 07:30
Beating Daemons of Chaos

Well with all the discussion on how broken daemons are it seems logical to start a thread on how to deal with them. Lets start with an assumption:
You may think daemons are teeth-grindingly overpowered but you still want to play warhammer so discussing and offering strategies would be useful.

I'll try to update this post with whatever people add and if people are willing to do army specific things then that would be cool.

A couple of things:
Daemons have several powerful but different builds and some tactics that work really well against X won't work really well against Y. If you tailor your lists (and your opponent does) then you can mix and match but I'll try to focus on stuff that works well against all daemon armies. I play mostly Tzeentch with some Nurgle so I'll suggest some tactics against these first. I'm not claiming to be a world class expert or whatever so feel free to criticise and correct me.

Tzeentch based army:

There are two main builds, core heavy and character heavy (AKA flying circus).

Core heavy army will probably consist of at least 2 large blocks of horrors (I always go for 26+) with the standard of sorcery. The third core unit will be either a minimum unit of horrors or daemons from another power. There will be at least one unit of furies (in any daemon army) Backing this up will be either a LOC+herald or several heralds (master of sorcery) with flight and/or flying chariots. Expect at least one unit of flamers, quite possibly two and maybe some screamers.

Overall Tzeentch army plan: Destroy high PV units with magic, delay with fliers mop up in combat with combo charges, high US fear and static combat res.
Favourite match ups- anything with units of expensive cavalry and monsters, armies with limited dispelling power. Elite armies incl. high elf infantry. Generally the more UBER your units the happier the Tzeentch player will be.
Least Favourite matchups- armies with good long range shooting, especially hordes, armies with lots of fliers and/or fast cavalry,armies with good magic defences.

Lets look at the magic first:
Boon of Tzeentch- Cheap nasty little spell that greatly enhances Tzeentch magic. Whether to dispel it depends a lot on where the herald/LOC is, what spells they can cast and so on. If the spellcaster is behind your lines with 5-6 units within 12" (i.e. perfect gift of chaos climate) try to dispel it. Otherwise if you have a better than 50% chance of dispelling it with one die I would recommend trying to dispel it. If its cast by a LOC then try to dispel it since they have a good chance of casting bolt of change or even spell 6 if you don't. If its cast by a herald more than 12" away from your lines then let it go, flickering fire isn't that bad, glean magic is only good depending on your own magic and bolt of change will fail most of the time when cast by a herald (and your opponent may miscast).
Glean Magic- Can be a very nasty spell or completely crap spell depending on your own magic. I get the most value out of it against VC and high elves since they have some great spells I can steal (curse of years, flames of the phoenix). Remember that although its infinite range your opponent needs LOS to the relevant caster to use it.
Bolt of change- The warhammer nuke, against r-n-f its only a little better than a 2D6 magic missile, against expensive stuff like knights, dragons and other monsters its absolute gold. The whole army works purely because of this spell's ability to melt the nastiest units combines with gift of chaos' ability to take down infantry. Cast by horror units with +1 to cast or a LOC with a re-roll to cast or+2 to cast its very hard to dispel. If you have something which costs a lot of points this is where you will need your dispel scrolls. Don't even bother using dispel dice unless you have MR, you can use your dispel dice to cripple the rest of the Tzeentch phase if you top these big boys. Expect one or 2 per turn.
Gift of chaos- the infantry killer, against hordes like infantry undead this spell can actually be worse than bolt of change and far more easily cast (3-4 per phase). Gift of chaos is a spell that depends on movement and position more than the others and the best ways to limit its effectiveness are:
Guard your backfield- a single unit or character with high movement and a good line of sight and charge/threat range across your rear lines will massively hamper your opponent. Tzeentch heralds can be beaten in combat by almost anything (although if you aren't fearsome or ITP ensure you have US6 or more). Mine have been killed by gnoblars for god's sake. The LOC is trickier but since he is a lot of points your war machines/shooting/magic missiles should be taking him down.
Tzeentch's Firestorm- The dud spell of the lore, the raising benefit is only really useful for march blocking and drawing fanatics and the Tzeentch player is only likely to throw this out if all other options are unavailable or the have a lot of spare dice from boon of Tzeentch. A nasty enough spell but a 2D6 S5 magic missile isn't that bad and the new unit is free VPS.

To greatly impact the use of gift of chaos (and also so protect your main regiment) MR of any kind is very very useful. I canít begin to tell you how much annoyance I get from ogres with three thiefstones in the middle of the army, it cripples my ability to cast gift which is the only spell my Tzeentch units can cast in combat and the main attack spell for my heralds.

A final note on Tzeentch magic, rushing forward with your elites isnít necessarily the best idea, advancing carefully while keeping a cheap screen to the front is a very good plan. Cheap troops (goblins, gnoblars, zombies, skinks, skirmishers etc.) will protect your elites from the power of the horror unitís bolt of change and flamer fire. The key is to get into combat intact, this also means ensuring you arenít march blocked.

Tzeentch Core Based Army

Typically the Tzeentch core army will castle with core units in support of each other (and will be happy to retreat back to the back line to ensure more turns of magic and shooting (to fend of fast enemy units) with flyers on the flanks which seek to get behind enemy lines to delay and pick off troops. Fighting against this kind of army requires guarding your backfield against fliers as noted above- the longer you can do this the more certain your chance of success, furies, screamers and heralds on chariots are easy to take down. LOC requires artillery or a serious combat unit but by taking a LOC your opponent will have a drastically reduced army (and probably reduced magic).

Another thing to note against the Tzeentch core army is the size of the horror units, remember a unit of 26-30 can easily be knocked down to 25 which greatly reduces their use- no bolt of change, and only 1 dispel die. A single artillery hit, volley of crossbow bolts a decent magic missile and things will swing your way.

To delay combat until its on his terms the Tzeentch player will likely have invested points in the servants of another god, so expect something along the lines of either a nurgle herald with bearers, fleshhounds (maybe with herald), a unit daemonettes with banner of ecstasy and maybe a fiend or two for redirection. When you make it to combat, destroy them.

The Tzeentch core army is a tough nut to crack all in all, although if you can outshoot it the daemon player will be forced to come to you. By knocking down the size of large horror blocks you can more or less guarantee your opponent coming after you as long as you guard well against fliers picking off units. Otherwise advance while keeping your more expensive troops screened and your rear guarded. If your opponent has not kept his units together for support then go for any units that are left hanging in the wind.

Your opponent may also take the blue scribes but their impact is relatively minimal unless you are very heavy magic. By RAW they can join units to prevent being taken out by artillery but that is currently a contested point.

The Flying Circus Army

This army revolves around the opponent using a LOC or Kairos Dreamweaver with several flying heralds (possibly with power vortex to feed dice to the LOC) with three minimum units of 10 horrors, 10 or 12 flamers and either fiends or fleshhounds as the main combat force. This army tends to be even more reliant on magic due to the lack of static CR and involves using fleshhounds/fiends to get a charge on the flank or denying the opponents rank bonus through a rear charge with LOC/chariot and charging to the front with fiends/flesh hounds. Kairos, if present will also be throwing dice at unseen lurker and (if fleshhounds) wolf hunts meaning units can move to your flank and magically charge the same turn. You will need very good magic defence to prevent this happening although using a checkerboard deployment will help prevent your whole live from being rolled up. Otherwise you need to protect your flanks very well.

This army is, above all, about point denial. Trudging across the battlefield to get the flamer will net you only 360VPs whilst you are forced to weather a storm of magic and shooting. Trying to pin down the flying elements is generally a waste of time although if you can get the LOC or Kairos in combat due to your opponents oversight or with magic or tunnelling then that will help greatly. Otherwise this is probably the most frustrating army to play against since your opponent can easily contest all four table quarters and only needs to kill 500 points or so to win (and with good use of his units can easily get a massacre).

Without Kairos the LOC is very afraid of war machines and, to some extent, shooting meaning if you have powerful artillery (dwarves, empire and maybe greenskins) you can win the VP war. With Kairos and his 3+ ward and re-rolls you will need a lot of luck.

In an army with Kairos blue scribes can be a lot more dangerous since Kairos has a lot more powerful spells, +2 to cast and re-rolls meaning a couple of extra power dice can go a long way.

The flying circus (and indeed to some extent Tzeentch in general) can be crippled also by items that prevent flying- storm banner is very useful (and reduces flamers threat a lot)l, daemon generals will not be happy having flying chariots ad screamers reduced to M1 and furies to M4, orb of thunder can be handy for the same reason- it will get dispelled but thatís two less dispel dice in your opponents hand.

The Nurgle Legion

Regeneration, ward saves (together equivalent to a 3+ invulnerable save) and toughness the nurgle legion is probably the most indestructible warhammer army and is basically begging the opponent to try them in a fair 1-1 fight, because the nurgle legion can happily win. For a decent sized plaguebearer block with herald you are looking at 16 plaguebearers +herald on palanquin. That puts each part of the wall of Nurgle at 420 points, 332 if going for a minimal unit of 14PBs FC+Herald without goodies. These blocks quickly add up (1341 points for 3 decent sized regiments, 1788 for 4) and if your opponent goes for a GUO with 50/100 points of goodies thatís 1976 points used so almost nothing left for support units (not a good idea). Also a nurgle player without support units can basically be avoided for the whole game resulting in a stalemate at best for the nurgle player without anything to force the enemy to them, meaning such a list is unlikely to be successful unless against a very poor player. As a result you are more likely to see a 3/4 herald army with PBs or a GUO, 2 heralds in decent sized blocks and a third small heraldless plaguebearer unit. The former leaves 2-400 points spare, the latter assuming a level 3 or 4 GUO leaves about 300 points free. To put heat on the opponent the nurgle player can use nurglings, magic, beasts or a contingent of other daemons. Some players may also opt to go for minimum magic with the banner of sundering and natural toughness to weather the storm.

Nurglings can prevent the opponent marching away from the great wall of nurgle and to take out artillery and missile troops. If epidemius puts in an appearance nurglings can become very nasty quickly and help raise the tally.

Magic takes the form of a GUO and bound spells (or 4 heralds with bounds but thatís easier to deal with). Since the base spell of Nurgle, whilst extremely powerful, is very easy to dispel and useless at range, adding in staves of nurgle and the hellfire banner allows the spamming of bound spells that are quite powerful. Assuming the banner, 3 staves (GUO and two heralds) thatís 5-6 DD needed for the bounds alone before the GUO starts throwing 6PD of spells out. Quite a nasty magic phase, especially with the standard of seeking decay.

Beasts are fairly fast and can support the GUO in providing enough kills to break units Allowing some M6 nastiness. A common trick is to run two beasts in b-t-b with the GUO (on both sides) meaning any ranked unit that wants to charge the GUO has to deal with 2 beasts at the same time (and the beasts can peel off from their master to hold up units, take out missile troops and so on). Still beasts are very expensive, a unit of two canít face a fully ranked up regiment and 3 beasts is expensive. Having said that beasts are a tremendous unit for killing ogre-class infantry like Kroxigor.

Allied daemons will tend to be something fast and hitty (seekers, fiends, fleshhounds or flamers) or a Tzeentch herald + horror unit to boost dispel rolls (and often meaning the nurgle player only needs 2 units of PBs). Furies are almost guaranteed given the slow speed of the list unless your opponent is a purist.

A few notes on the characters and toys of Nurgle:

The GUO is incabable of beating a ranked up unit although he has a chance of beating cavalry with S8 and 4 attacks. If you can get a full unit of infantry in combat with him he is likely to lose by 3 every round meaning a lost wound on average each combat phase. Over three turns that translates to half VPs.With a balesword (and noxious vapours) he can also rack up a lot of damage against ogre class units and kill characters. Generally though the GUO is points denial, tarpitting, terror causing and rank breaking.
A magic heavy nurgle list will often give the GUO a staff of nurgle leaving 50 points for other goodies. The trapping make the GUO almost impossible to kill by anything apart from CR or extremely heavy bombardment. Few characters can take him on and win, especially without flaming attacks although multiple wound weapons have a chance as well, virtue of heroism+tress of isoulde might be worth a shot as well. Still some players to save points may neglect trappings meaning its worthwhile finding out early if the GUO has the gift, if not artillery is a definite option. Pestilent mucus is a dangerous gift as well since if the GUO suffers several wounds in combat it can wipe out a lot of your models. A final and very useful gift is nurgling infestation. Over a 6 turn game this grants an average of 10 free nurgling bases- 350 points worth for a 50 point gift. Very useful indeed and this means a small unit of 3 nurglings can become a significant tarpit by the mid game and can ensure the GUO can survive a combat with a ranked unit and eventually win.

For heralds the standard kit is probably noxious vapours and slime trail meaning a nurgle herald is very hard to take down by anything less than a lord with a very good armour save and flaming attacks, killing blow or an Ogre hero/Tyrant with tenderizer. The staff is an option too but reduces the heraldís defensive ability. Another nice option for nurgle is the stream of bile which, especially when combined with standard of seeping decay adds a bit of ranged power and the ability to reduce the rank bonus of horde armies prior to combat.

For the bsb hellfire is a powerful option for magic, sundering for magic defence, unholy victory for a unit that is truly powerful at breaking anything. Finally is the very expensive standard of chaos glory which makes all units within 12Ē stubborn which, combined with the bsb means that the great wall is almost immune to any kind of deaths in combat.

For units the icon of eternal virulence is the lesser of the two banners unless epidemius is present in which case it becomes very nasty indeed. The banner of seeping decay is very useful for the nurgle units, especially the palanquin to rack up kills and can also be used in conjunction with the heraldís stream of bile or rancid visitation to wound rolls.

Nurgle Summary

Overall the Nurgle legion is basically a points denial army that wins by grinding the enemy down while taking few losses. If you have the tools to take down heralds then plaguebearers anvils are easy to take down, sadly those tools arenít equally available to everyone. The tools needed are:
1) Static combat res
2) Flank charges to deny the plaguebearers static combat res
3) Items that boost combat res (war banner, battle banner, banner of the griffon or banner of the lady-denying your opponent)
4) Flaming close combat attacks such as the banner of hellfire, balefire spike, burning blade. Flaming sword of rhuin can be a stand in on a fighty character if you are lucky. Talisman of loec is risky but has a chance as well, especially with the white sword against nurgle heralds. Tricksy trinket on the standard chariot mounted gobo with the one hit wunda can also do a bit of damage in a combat in support of a block of troops and flankers.
5) Multi wound magic weapons such as the tenderizer, flail of skulls, blade of realities, sword of heroes+virtue of audacity
6) Flaming ranged attacks- warpfire throwers, flame cannons, screaming skulls, runes of flame, salamanders, red dragonís breath, firewyrms, hydra

Kerill
04-07-2008, 07:31
...Nurgle continued

Magic is a another handy tool since a Nurgle legion tends to have average magic defence and no dispel scrolls (1 if there is a Tzeentch herald). For level one or 2 mages the lore of light is the place to shop, even with risk caused by the banner of sundering 1D6 S6 hits will kill a lot more than D6 S4 hits and cleansing flare is very damaging indeed. For higher level mages you have three options, lore of light (the best option if sundering isn’t present but since you have to roll for magic first this may not be the best option for a high level mage, great if you have a war altar though), fire which has lots of spells that will do at least some damage and shadow. Shadow is probably your best bet since all of the spells can be very useful- steed of shadows to march block from the get go, shades of death is useful to prevent autobreaks and negate fear, unseen lurker is a great spell as always and the absolute gem against I1 plaguebearers pit of shades. A test on initiative with no saves of any kind is just gold against plaguebearer blocks. The herald of nurgle is only I2 but will probably pass a lookout-sir roll against the template. The GUO is riskier with I4 but its still a third of a chance to kill an otherwise almost unkillable model. For O&G mork wants ya can be worth a shot, especially if you cast it on the bsb who is probably worth 300VPs and vital to the army. Expect each cast where the bsb fails the I2 test to cause a single wound on average and two or three castings will net you those 300 VPs and cut the heart from the army.

Killing blow troops are also useful but not to be relied on too much. A 3+ save doesn’t mean that nurgle units will never take casualties- they will but only half of what you would expect against other troops and roughly on par with heavy cavalry. This means that hard hitting units of knights will bounce whereas static blocks have a better chance, especially if you have boosted CR or reduced your opponents.

Other than that remember that nurgle is primarily a points denial army that wins in combat when it reaches there. Even the magic heavy version more or less has to come and get you. You can play the same denial strategy- pound away with whatever you have, march block and simply avoid the great wall by moving away from it at a greater speed. If your opponent is coming at you (which he will) you can set up flank charges for later turns to pick off the flank regiments. Unless you are wielding a unit of bloodknights with flaming banner charging into the center of the wall is a very bad idea. Generally never expect to wipe out the whole daemon army, it isn’t going to happen unless you are very fortunate. If your opponent has taken daemons from another god then they will be a lot easier to kill than the nurgle units netting you much easier VPs. Try and find out early if the GUO has trapping, if not, pound it with anything that can wound reliably. Small arms shooting and light spells can take out nurglings (although you will need to concentrate fire early if your opponent has infestation).

If you have a decent character killer with a flaming or multiwound weapon then taking out a herald will mean the plaguebearers will crumble very quickly. Don’t assume kills with normal troops- if you aren’t ahead by a clear margin on CR don’t charge in- and don’t presume the +1 or +2 flank/rear charge bonuses. Also be especially careful of the nurgle bsb’s unit; unholy victory can make a huge difference in combat. If your opponent has epidemius in a unit of plaguebearers without another herald then that unit is a key target since it has no regeneration saves and epidemius’ tally is lethal once it gets to 7+. Make sure also that your opponent doesn’t use this unit as a lure (switching a herald to that unit from another one as your units are moving into position to attack). When multi-charging remember the ideal situation is a unit with a high AS at the front with the herald and then a static block to the side. Cavalry are also ideal for taking out nurglings.

Finally you can play the unbreakably/stubborn game as well and use a unit (e.g. flagellants) to hold the centre of the table to ensure that your opponent is kept away from your tastier units.

Keep plugging away in the early turns, reducing a rank here and there if nothing tastier rears its head so your static blocks can wear the daemons down later. If you have something to take down a herald, take down the bsb above all other targets. Ensure your war machines/missile troops are not somewhere they can be easily taken out by nurglings or fast allied elements too easily. When you are ready surround and engage only on your own terms. Against magic heavy nurgle you may need to get stuck in quicker but the nurgle army will be much smaller (300 points or more invested in magic) and the heralds will be easier to take down.

As far as nurgle magic is concerned, plague wind is a must stop spell, rancid visitation is nasty as well. Shrivelling pox is also a must dispel when cast against your general or wizard lord but a GUO can’t cast pox and wind in the same turn generally since they have only 6PD to play with . In combat miasma is deadly so save dice against it, its also another reason why its best to pick off units rather than go for a full on charge since 1 is easy to stop but three or four with 5/6PD is a lot to handle.

Khorne

Khorne is your expected smash mouth chaos sporting perhaps the most deadly of the greater daemons and a tough roster of troops.

The bloodthirster is more or less a must take in a Khorne legion since it’s combination of speed, terror and bloody combat potential makes it very hard to ignore. Dealing with a bloodthirster presents the same difficulties as a dragon rider although to some extent lacking a dragon rider’s resilience to shooting and breath weapon a bloodthirster needs to get into combat to get back its points. The most likely gifts are armour of Khorne (3+ save) or obsidian armour (3+ save, magic weapons count as normal) and and almost certain immortal fury (re-roll misses in every round of combat). This leaves 40-60 points for other goodies, spellbreaker is a likely choice as is axe of Khorne or firestorm blade although the thirster doesn’t really need much further ornamentation. Dealing with a bloodthirster is generally the same as dealing with a dragon, artillery, missiles, challenging with unit champions and feeding cheap regiments if need be. Since the thirster no longer suffers from frenzy (not hatred) it isn’t easy to lead astray. The bloodthirster is a quarter of your opponents army and very dangerous but over-reacting to the thirster can sometimes be as fatal as ignoring it.

Khorne heralds are pretty damn nasty as well and will almost always be mounted on a jugger with armour of Khorne for a mighty 0+ armour save and 5+ ward. Firestorm blade is a possibility allowing the herald to cut through almost anything and pop chariots. Mounted on a jugger 5 High ws, high strength killing blow attacks is dangerous to any character of US1 or 2 and means that even characters capapble of standing toe-to tow are best advised to engage only if they get the charge (although ogre and minotaur characters can happily thwack away, 2 wounds only goes so far). Adding hatred to bloodletters and bloodcrushers is a mixed blessing, although primarily useful, hatred being very useful to break the foe on the charge. A unit of 11/16 bloodletters with a herald on jugger can break almost any standard infantry unit on the charge causing an average of almost 7 wounds on the charge+standard+2/3 ranks (and possibly US after all the carnage) meaning at least+10 CR against +5 for the opponents unit. After the first round this drops to about 5 kills. As for the weakness? Well hatred means that heralds and any unit they are in (even fleshounds who don’t benefit from the locus) are forced to pursue a defeated opponent. This means that a unit of scouts, light cavalry or fliers (and its best to have units that can survive 5 killing blow attacks (thus a great eagle is an iffy proposition of the herald is on the flank you wish to charge although for letters you can go for the rear as well and have the unit pursuer backwards )or have a champion to take the damage that charge such units in the flank can send the unit off on a wild goose chase wasting one or two of your opponents turns for less that a hundred points. Just make sure you pass that fear test.

Bloodletters are the more versatile of the daemonic fighting infantry doing well against both infantry, characters and cavalry (as opposed to daemonettes who excel at killing infantry but struggle against knights and tough troops). Having said that a unit of 15 (or 20) without a herald is not excessively threatening, 6 attacks from the front (although 3*6 units are also feasible) translates to about 2.77 kills against 4+ save infantry. The opponent striking back with 3 attacks will cause 0.5 wounds in return so the bloodletters will either win or lose by a small margin (as a result knocking ranks off should be a priority). Interestingly against troops with spears the 8 attacks back will translate into 1.33 wounds meaning even gobo spearmen can defeat a unit of bloodletters from the front given plenty of ranks and a little luck. HE spears can consistently defeat them easily despite being 3 points cheaper. Saurus can give them a run for the money as well. Savage boyz with spears will also do very well if they outnumber (again for 3 points less). In short bloodletters need the herald to break the enemy on the charge, a unit of bloodletters on it’s own, whilst not something to be dismissed casually isn’t that hard to deal with. If you get a flank they are dead, plain and simple. Even with a herald if you can get the flank you will hold and once hatred wears off, probably win (although attrition is against you in a long combat). A unit of spearmen and a supporting flanker will beat them although. One other possibility though is the double herald unit of bloodletters and that is a unit best avoided by all but the most elite troops or troops with stubborn or unbreakable. Both the “always march” and +D6” charge banners are useful for bloodletters and any decent sized unit will have one or the other.

Fleshhounds are another excellent unit and are sometimes called the chosen knights of Daemons. They are indeed very powerful and 2 wounds is a bonus against shooting and magic. Having said that they aren’t as good as chosen knights in combat, apart from the lack of steed attack the reduced armour save means they can suffer more wounds in combat and thus don’t have quite the same unit breaking potential. 6 Hounds (the most common size) will get 5.5 wounds against T3 4+ save troops, generally not enough to break the enemy. If the 0.5 is rounded up the hounds win, if rounded down they lose due to the musician. Again a unit of gobos has a chance of holding them off. Against spearmen they will generally lose and against savage or high elf spears they will lose by enough to start disintegrating. Swordmasters 7/8 wide can also beat them if they pass the fear test although the swordmasters will take casualties too. If hounds get a flank they are however very dangerous, and part of the bloodthirsters job is to force you to make that difficult decision. If a herald is added in the extra 2/3 wounds caused is enough to make them a a unit breaker (although at around 400 points they should be). Fleshhounds without herald are also a unit that can get to the opponents artillery.missile.light troops quickly and then move to flank around the time bloodletters hit the enemy line. They can also be used to guard the flanks of bloodletter units. Also as US2 troops, fleshhounds can be hurt by killing blow which means killing blow attacks can be very useful here.

Bloodcrushers are a scary but in some ways very fragile unit. 3 Bloodcrushers with a herald, standard and +D6” charge banner can cut through any unit in the game bar none, 12 wounds on the charge is the average, characters will be butchered by killing blow and short of insane courage any unit will break. An undead unit of 20 models or less is likely to evaporate in a single round as well. After the first round (if you survive that long) they are less dangerous but still immensely powerful. On the other hand crushers die very easily to artillery, both cannons and bolt throwers can tear through them. Magic missiles like the default light spell and small arms fire can also cause a lot of damage and at 35+ points per wound the Khorne player will feel that pain quickly. With a 14” march and an extra D6” to the charge the Khorne player can cover 43” into the table if deployed in a forward position meaning you don’t want to deploy your generals unit facing them. Bloodcrushers have a further problem in that since 5+herald is a very unwieldy and prohibitively expensive unit any herald in the unit can be sniped by cannons and other war machines meaning 160-190 easy points if you get a shot in. Basically never engage them if you can help it, shoot them or magic them. US2 each again makes KB very useful and also bypasses the 3+armour save.

Khorne Summary
A Khorne legion, despite the MR (and the very likely presence of the banner of sundering), is generally easy prey for magic since with only 2 dispel dice and maybe a spellbreaker. As a result some generals will invest in a unit of horrors (and maybe a tzeentch herald with spellbreaker) to improve their magic defence, it is still generally average at best though so blast away. Another possible (and useful) complement to a Khorne legion is to take a slaaneshi contingent. Fiends are blindingly fast and a unit of seekers with the siren standard with a herald with sirens call can pull a key unit out of line and allow a thirster/hounds to butcher your flank. Furies again are very likely indeed.

Against a Khorne legion, as with nurgle you want to try to delay your opponent as much as possible, picking away whilst preparing for countercharges later. Khorne daemons will also die an awful lot faster than nurgle and those daemons are damned expensive. March-blocking is awkward due to the fastspeed of some units and the access of bloodletters to the always march standard. Short of magic, scouts and maybe flyers if you get the first turn, march blocking isa lot more difficult. The thing that makes fighting Khorne awkward though is the bloodthirster (and to a lesser extent crushers). You can’t have the bloodthirster blasting around your lines and your general needs to stay away from the beast if at all possible. Unless you have a flank shot on a unit of bloodcrushers, the thirster should be your number 1 target, whatever you can do to kill it or lock it down, do so but try not to compromise your line to such an extent that its easy meat for fleshhounds. You will outnumber your opponent, so use that advantage as far as possible. Putting war machines together on a hill is a bad idea, space them out for flank shots and if there is a forest a war machine or 2 in there is a good idea (and if the force of chaos come calling remember you have the option of retreating deeper into the forest so they can’t see to charge you (wasting your opponent’s time).

Armilthuan
04-07-2008, 10:30
The cornerstone on which all Daemon lists are built are the characters. Daemons cannot compete without characters. Therefore, it is completely normal for Daemons to fill all 4 character slots.

The Greater Daemons are big hulking monstrosities with power unmatched, the speed to bring it to bear and the speed to stay out of trouble. How do you take on such a brute? Don't worry, you can take it down, but it's not going to be easy.

You need a few things to take care of a Greater Daemon.

Shooting/magic power: 2 Bolt Throwers will suffice. Not only will you damage them with a lucky shot, but you will make them weary and on their feet instead of taking a relaxed walk in the park.

Long range charger: Something that can hit moderately hard and is fast enough. 2 Chariots will suffice, but heroes on small flying mounts (or with M9) can also make their presence felt. Preferably, take something with 360 degree LoS. Use these to gaurd your back field. You DON'T want a Greater Daemon to land behind your lines. Hopefully, just the threat of a chariot hitting him when he lands behind your lines is enough ot make him think twice.

Sturdy blocks: You need something that is either Unbreakable, Stubborn(with High enough US vs Fear) or, if all else fails. An abundance of CR5+ blocks. Against a few GD, you need these blocks to hold them still. The best lure is a block that can still be fallable and/or costs a good amount of points. You can then proceed to bring weight upon him or take on the rest of the army.

These tips also hold true vs Tzeentch Heralds on flying Discs/Chariots.

Hope to have been of your aid...

OldMaster
04-07-2008, 11:26
Basically, remember yert again, that though they are scary and not scareable and unbreakable in some way, 4/5 of the core and 3/4 of the special are quite expensive troops with a Toughness of 3. So, if you charge them and pass your fear test, you have quite a good chance of mawing some of them down, even with that Ward Save of them. If you play High Elves you have no right to complain - a Deamon Infantry block without a Herald CANNOT survive an High Elf Infantry block, be it Phoenix Guard, Spearmen, White Lions or those pesky Swordmasters. And in the case of Swordmasters, even Heralds do not help much. It's an absolute fact.

Most terryfying thing about Deamonic Infantry blocks imo are the Heralds. Heralds give a quite a good bonus to their minions. Eliminating those guys makes an infantry block ordt it's cost twice as less. This is not always easy, of course, but it really helps bringing them down in close combat.
Other one thing are the Icons. I don't know about other Deamon players, but none of my units leaves home without an Icon.Because Icons do not have to be revealed until they are used, as with normal gifts, infantry blocks require extra caution. You will be ruined when you try to march block a Bloodletter unit and realise they cannot because of their Icon. Or that you've accidentally let those Seekers come too close to your Waywatchers and can't flee because of their Icon. You will never know.

Ward.
04-07-2008, 11:38
Perhaps this should have done in 5 parts, such as one tactica against each god and a final one for combined armies?

My input is this, have spare minimum sized units ready to take quarters in the last turn. daemon armies are small and excel in combat (most of them anyway) this often leaves them unable to contest all of the quarters.

Belerophon709
04-07-2008, 12:28
Other one thing are the Icons. I don't know about other Deamon players, but none of my units leaves home without an Icon.Because Icons do not have to be revealed until they are used, as with normal gifts, infantry blocks require extra caution.

This is being debated all across the web at the moment. Since gifts are now explicitly mentioned as not being magic items, most debates concerning keeping gifts a secret or not are swaying towards gifts not being secret like magic items.

Whether or not this will be cleared up in a future FAQ will be interesting.

EvC
04-07-2008, 15:31
Things I've seen do well against Daemons so far:
Empire:
Steam Tanks
Cannons
War Altar

High Elves:
Vortex Shard
4 Bolt Throwers

Vampire Counts:
Extreme magic heavy (even though damaged by Banner of Sundering)
With Vampire Counts, sadly combat armies will not do well. A simple Khorne Herald on a Juggernaut will outfight most combat Lords, let alone what a Bloodthirster can do to them. You need to be able to raise a lot, and move a lot.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
04-07-2008, 20:11
Belero....why would they NOT be "secret" ?

You don't start off the game pointing to a Standard Bearer (as a Daemon player) and saying "okay, this guy has the Standard of Seeping Decay...and this one over here, this is a Skull Totem. Also, this Daemonette unit has the Banner of Ecstasy...."

"Oh yeah, and my Bloodthirster has the Axe of Khorne Gift, so I wouldn't suggest charging him with your Lord. Uh...and the Herald has Noxious Vapors and Slime Trail, so if you hit the flanks or rear, remember you wont' get that extra +1 to Combat Resolution...uh...yeah, I think that's everything in my army. Okay, shall we start the game now ?"

etc. etc.

Why would there be ANY debate as to if a Daemon player should do that or not, during the game ? That's crazy !

Kerill
04-07-2008, 21:02
Fulgrim is right IMO, daemonic gifts and icons are secret.

Finnigan2004
04-07-2008, 23:39
I figured that people who play daemons would have the best idea of how to handle them... http://z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/index.php?showtopic=4683

OldMaster
04-07-2008, 23:44
Well I think the posters here are such, too.

Finnigan2004
04-07-2008, 23:54
Yes, many of us are, but many of the top tournament players (especially North American) frequent the daemonic legion. I'm sure good advice can come from both.

Kerill
05-07-2008, 19:15
Hmm that 20000 character limit is a problem :)

I'll try to add a special character section later

Slaanesh

I’ve not played with or against Slaanesh yet so this will be very basic.

Slaanesh armies tend to try to confuse the hell out of your battleline with magic, destroy your army with psychology if they can and get into combat with what remains so fast that if they are rolling well they can get a massacre in very quickly indeed. Daemonettes are also interesting in that they are the only daemonic infantry unit that can reliably take on a unit of ranked infantry without a herald and generally win. They tend to do less well against knights though. Indeed apart from the keeper the slaanesh army lacks anything that can deal with heavy armour reliably with heralds and fiends only getting a -2 modifier. In some ways this is problematic since the best way to combat most other daemon armies is with a lot of static CR.

Keeper of secrets- This is by far the best multi-tasker of all the greater daemons. Fights almost as well as a bloodthirster but can have a lot of magic and the nastiest daemon gift of all- siren song. Apart from siren song, the keeper may have one or two defensive gifts (torment blade, allure) but generally doesn’t need much more in the way of tools than he/she/it already has. As the most powerful Slaaneshi spellcaster level 3 or 4 is fairly common.
Acquiescence can be quite annoyance (especially when Ld penalties start to stack) and in the early game its worth trying to dispel.
Cacaphonic caress is a reasonable spell but very very short ranged and generally isn’t a “must dispel” spell.
Succour of chaos is only useful in combat (although worth stopping then).
Slicing shards can be a very nasty spell, especially with Ld modifiers applied and is something you want to dispel.
Pavane is in a similar league although the LOS restriction means you may be able to protect your characters by keeping them screened.
Phantasmagoria is a very powerful spell indeed and can be cast successfully wth 3 dice more than 50% of the time.
One useful thing against Phantasmagoria, cacaphonic caress (and gift of chaos from Tzeench) is that you can use MR against them. MR2 or MR3 basically renders phantasmagoria little more than a nuisance and can make the caress and gift of chaos almost painless to dispel.

Heralds of slaanesh are by far the weakest of the combat heralds although their ability to take siren song is of tremendous use. ASF isn’t a bad locus to have either and helps mitigate against the herald’s weakness. Other than that allure of slaanesh is all they have for protection (although with modifiers it isn’t a bad one either) and if you can pass the leadership test you have a good chance of gutting the herald.

Siren song- The nastiest of all chaos gifts. The ability to move 20” and make your generals unit choose between charging in (and probably giving up its flank to a keeper/fiends/whatever) or fleeing and getting run by the daemon unit the next turn. To prevent this you need to screen any vital units you have, if you can’t see they can’t siren you. Screen your generals unit (or keep him well to the back) unless you are supremely confident in that unit’s ability. A unit of skirmishers (even duelists if you can think of nothing else) can save you a lot of pain. Expensive shooting units like salamanders and units and maybe cavalry (who if they flee on the first turn are quite likely to leave the board and if they charge will be keepered or fiended), outriders would definitely be in this category. If you can spare it a unit of fast cavalry behind lines to cover any gaps that appear (and to prevent the slaanesh daemons charging a unit that has fled from siren) can be a good idea. Although in a tight ordered battle-line moving one unit of troops closer to the next can work sometimes (althougha herald can still charge through the gap a Keeper can be blocked in this way). Also even if your unit has no choice but to charge that doesn’t prevent you charging other units in with it. If your thunderers have to charge that slaaneshi unit remember you can through your warriors in with them!

The great icon of despair- this banner (-2Ld within 12”) massively boosts the powers of slaanesh daemons, including the effects of Terror, fear, slaanesh gifts like allure and most of the slaanesh spells. Phantasmagoria and the masque can also stack in VERY nastily and a Tzeentch herald casting doom and darkness (unlikely but…) produces the only magic spell in the game that can automatically kill a unit with no chance of survival whatsoever (-3Ld from D&D, -2LD from banner and up to -3LD from the masque for a total of -8LD. A subsequent slicing shards will automatically kill a unit with Ld9 or less since they can never pass the Ld test). If you see a bsb in a slaanesh army target it with anything you have, I would even go so far to say that I would prioritise this model for shooting more even that the keeper. If with a unit of seekers direct everything you can at that little fragile unit. Pop mushrooms like candy, burn powerstones like a nympho on a brothel bring any shooting and war machines you can to bear- trust me you will be glad you did. Against empire and the like the combination of terror and -2 Ld can potentially send half your line fleeing on the first turn (and then cleaned up with 20” charges on the next). The masque is also a nasty little bugger and although cannon shots are wasted due to the 3+ ward she is another very high priority for small arm and magic missile attacks.

If you have Unbreakable or stubborn blocks I recommend taking fairly large units if you can. If half your line flees from Terror+siren song reform the unit and expand the frontage to as wide as possible to give your fleeing units a chance to regroup. Use fast cavalry and fliers as well to help plug gaps and die gloriously for their brethren.

Daemonettes are the best unsupported combat daemon infantry, not needing herald to whup some backside and have a nice 12” charge. A unit of 20 (a unit of 3*5,3*6 or 3*7 are also viable) Will kill 2.4 troops per turn meaning they will usually win, sometimes tie combats. a unit 6 wide will kill 2.88 roughly equal to bloodletters although daemonette units are also very solid against flank attacks from light units as well. Also the sheer speed of the slaanesh army means that you have far less time (if any) to knock ranks off the daemonettes. Against cavalry daemonettes tend to do worse and although a herald can help a heavy cavalry charge to the flank will generally be the end of daemonettes (although that’s much easier said than done). Note again that spearmen will do very well against them.

Seekers are very fast and very fragile, they often run with the siren standard for taking out missile troops and gun crews. If you can’t shoot them early they can cause a lot of havoc. Having fliers of your own can also help a lot against them, as can light cavalry. Whilst the siren standard is very useful for them they are a very easy unit to kill and get the standard from if you can get them into combat on your terms. A fast hard hitting hero mounted (in a unit of infantry is fine) or a chariot with a bit of luck can net you150 points for the unit and a standard to show to his mates. Of course a lot of your units are going to be kept busy by the keeper and fiends so this isn’t always and option.

Fiends are the “hard hitters” of the Slaanesh legion And 4 Fiends can cause 6 wounds against Ws3 T3 4+ save infantry, meaning a chance to break on the charge but less than 4 fiends or Ws4 opponents will mean they can’t win on a frontal charge. Like fleshhounds they are murder if they can get a flank charge and with a 20” move and all the other tricks slaanesh has they have a much better chance of doing so that fleshhounds in a Khorne legion. 2 Fiends even is a credible threat in flanking, missile troops and war machine hunting and a single find is an excellent mage hunter, war machine hunter and redirector. Fiends are a very useful unit for and Daemon general.


Undivided

Well this is pretty hard to predict but it seems the opposed power do very well together (Nurgle/Tzeentch and Khorne/SLaanesh) and most daemon armies will benefit from a smattering of Tzeentch magic. Generally it seems armies that mix all the Gods equally tend to be weaker for it with one or two main powers generally being the better option with a smattering of the best of the rest maybe added- furies will appear in almost every non-purist list, flamers are always tremendous and flesh hounds and fiends are very useful as well.

Bringing it all together:

Psychology

All daemon armies bring psychological warfare to the table and Slaanesh in particular is lethal in this respect. You really need to get as much protection from psychology as you can afford and protect your general and BSB at all costs. Core units should be the backbone of your army supported by other elements. Only bretonnian cavalry , chosen knights, blood knights and maybe dragon princes can reliably go toe to toe with daemonic infantry/specials and expect to win. Keep your core regiments large- 20 should be the minimum for any battle line regiment (flankers aside) and if your troops are cheap I would go for 25 as a general minimum. Unbreakable, stubborn and fear causing troops are all gold against daemons, get them if you can. Your second set of purchases after insuring psychological protection should be items that boost CR since it tends to be the best way. Next up should be magical protection. A medium magic phase with offensive and defencive options is often the best idea unless your army specializes in magic and has decent Ld (elves, VC and TK). MR items if you can fit them in can also be very useful against Tzeentch and Slaanesh in particular. If you haven’t taken at least 2 scrolls against a daemon player and end up facing slaanesh or Tzeentch you deserve to lose.

Hand to hand

For going toe to toe, against the three combat Daemon legions (aside from Tzeentch) you want to whittle your opponent with war machines and missiles as long as you can without giving up the initiative before going for the kill. Heralds are often the difference between a unit that is very hard to beat and a unit that is average at best, if you have tools to kill heralds in combats, do so (not an option for many armies though). If you can take out the daemon bsb, then definitely go for it. Against Tzeentch advance and get stuck in but make sure your highest point units are well screened if at all possible or that you have enough scrolls to last a while. The humble spear is generally the weapon of choice against daemons since against daemon units of 250 points or less it means you will win the majority of combats and against 3-500 point units with heralds you still have a damn good chance if you get their flank a well. Additional weapons are second chpice since daemons tend to have high I and will wipe half you unit out in subsequent rounds. The usual disadvantage of spears (no second rank on charge) is largely negated by the fact that a combat with daemons will not be decided in a single combat phase. Multiple attacks are almost always better than a higher S weapon. Elf spears are great, white lions will suck. A unit of empire militia can beat a unit of bloodletters on the charge (if they get to charge of course) not bad for 120 points.

Other unit considerations

Now even with spending on some war machines and shooting and boosting your units in size a bit you will still have more line units than your opponent and have some points left. Invest in fast cavalry and/or fliers if you can, have a unit that can cover the rear of your army and take down light flying units and plug gaps. Take some screens of cheap/skirmishing troops, they will be very useful against Tzeentch magic and slaaneshi siren songs. If you have troops that don’t cause panic or can be re-raised then all the better. Redirectors are a sound investment be it detachments, a single rat ogre or troll (stone for the MR) if you can spare the slots. Hell even buy one of your scroll caddies a horse or wolf so they can do it in a pinch as well. Daemons have redirectors as well (furies,seekers, daemonettes fiends and bloodbeasts) but the inability to flee means they are going to give up VPs almost guaranteed.

Greater Daemons

The bloodthirster, Keeper and to some extent eh LOC can be a big pain in the rear and can be difficult to deal with- artillery should be pointed in their direction and if you can get a couple of wounds in you can get half VPs, it will make the daemons general much more cautious with them and one combat that swings your way can bring the end of them. One option to facilitate this is the suicide challenge magnet- a character with a decent ward and armour save whose existence is to challenge a greater daemon with the express purpose of reducing wounds suffered so that a fully ranked unit can win comfortably. A 1+ save and 4+ ward against a BT means the thrister will cause a measly 1 or two wounds against +5CR, that’s an average of two wounds gone from instability there. Of course your opponent is unlikely to risk a frontal charge against such a unit but such threats can help keep your opponent honest. Keeper of secrets with siren song can potentially net itself a nasty surprise this way. Some players of course can field a super beast of their own (dragon etc) so that’s an option as well. Remember also that a greater daemon is not a necessary reuirement, in some ways a 4 herald army can be even more powerful.

Final Summary

Daemons can do almost anything it seems but the sheer cost is a major issue. Many of the units struggle to break even cheap infantry unless a herald is added in. With the average herald running 200 points each and a greater daemon 500-650 its very hard for the daemon player to ensure everything is as hard as it seems. Heraldless daemons are not a massive issue unless they can flank you. A dead herald doesn’t just mean the daemon player has lost a hero, it means the unit they were supporting has suddenly become an awful lot weaker. Especially at 2000 points daemons have a lot of trouble of making a “complete” list. At 2250 I feel its much much easier to fit in all that I want to round out a daemon army.

Also note that more than any other army in warhammer the bsb is very important to daemons and makes a big differenc, with some very useful banners available and the instability re-roll they can add an awful lot to a daemon force.

Daemons are expensive and few in number, units often much fewer in number, outdeploy your opponent and you will be ahead from the start, outflank your opponent with your units if you can, at the very least prevent your opponent outflanking you. Many of the core units if unsupported are fairly weak.

One of the biggest mistakes I think players are making is trying to out-elite daemons. Basically, you can;t, only VC and Bretonnians are in with a chance (and in future warriors) core troops, a mixture of units and putting them to use is what will win the day.

Kerill
05-07-2008, 19:31
I'd like to do something like happy doctor did with the magic tactica and invite players to take resposnibility for their own army with fighting Daemons and update it with other people's suggestions, so it would be great if some people can step up to represent their armies, first come first serve ;)

Empire- unassigned
Orc and Goblins- unassigned
Dwarfs- unassigned
High Elves- Aranel
Wood Elves- unassigned
Lizardmen- unassigned
Skaven- Ward
Dogs of War- unassigned
Ogre Kingdoms- unassigned
Bretonnia- unassigned
Tomb Kings- Bunny Lord
Vampire Counts- unassigned
Beasts of Chaos- unassigned
Chaos Dwarfs- unassigned

Dark Elves- lets wait until the new book comes out
Warriors of Chaos - lets wait until the new book comes out

I've yet to add the special characters of Daemons, I'll do that later- after typing 3000 words I need a break :)

Ward.
06-07-2008, 03:04
If no body feels like writing one up for the skaven, I'd be happy to. Although my experience right now is mostly with khorne and slaanesh armies with the occasional nurgle opponent.

Bunny Lord
06-07-2008, 03:29
I would love to write one up for tomb kings i'm expierienced with all but slaneesh and my slaneesh isn't too bad.

Kerill
06-07-2008, 04:12
@Ward- skaven are yours then
@Bunny Lord- Tomb kings it is

I look forward to reading what you have to say gentlemen :)

Defender of Ulthuan
06-07-2008, 14:01
As much as everyone hates them, gunlines and bowlines are the way to overtake daemons. That and Wardancers. God, I love those WD. :)

Mozzamanx
06-07-2008, 14:50
If you use Orcs, then you have lots of fun toys at your disposal.

- Horn of Urgok. +1 Leadership to your army, -1 to the enemies. Sure, it occasionally does a Str5 hit, but this item is incredible for 40pts. Extra damage from instability, plus it ties very nicely into the next item...
- Skull Wand. For every hit you make, the enemy takes a leadership or dies. No size restrictions, no ward saves, and no regeneration. They just die. On a Savage Orc Shaman (Shaman only weapon), with a Banner of Butchery and Bash 'em Lads cast, can expect 2-3 hits with this. He can even get Kicking Boots, for a possible 4. Unless the enemy can pass 2-3 leadership tests every turn, he's gonna lose his Greater Daemon.
- Collar of Zorga. Oh looky, your terribly destructive Bloodthirster is hitting on a 6. For 5 points, its a steal.
- Spear Chukkas. Awesome value, awesome power. Nothing bad about these at all.
- Totem of Mork. Apart from Khorne, Daemons love magic. Its no problem at all to mass 8-9 dispel dice at 2000pts, plus removing a power dice.
- Savage Orcs + Squigs. Immune to Psychology and crazy hitting power. These will make such a lovely mess for the cost.
- Gork'll fix it!. Every 6 which matters turns into a 1. Tzeentch will never get IF, and will become a time bomb with so many spells which can miscast. Khorne no longer gets killing blow. That ward save only works 1/6th of the time. No poison. Aw yeah!!
- Tricksy Trinket. Works best against Tzeentch, but needs a chariot for the best efficiency. That gives D6+1 impact hits, at str5 plus whatever the rider has. This ignores Slaanesh's ASF, wounds most things on a 2+ and doesn't allow ward saves. Very very nasty.


What seems to work best is to go relatively magic heavy. A lord mage and 2 heroes, to ensure you get as many spells as possible. Magic defence is also very important, as 3/4 of Daemons rely heavily on it. Plus, shooting to remove ranks is a solid strategy, since they have so few models per unit. 1 or 2 kills can mean they only have a standard + kills, while you have 4 or 5 from the word go.

They are bad, but far from invincible. Hell, O&G can do it, and we all know how broken they are!

Bunny Lord
06-07-2008, 18:19
Tomb Kings VS. Daemons

This is a somewhat tricky match up since we can't use fear and they are semi unbreakable to. Believe it or not it's one of our better matchcups IMO. Because against them we will dominate 3/4 of the phases.

Movement
We may not be able to march or flee and they may fly (tzeench) but we have a great advantage they have to come to us. With so many expensive units and characters they can't have a very MSU list so they can surender large chunks of VP's very easily (horrors). This also gives us time to get around them since they have no shooting and not excessive magic unless they are tzeench in which case large vp's from horrors. This also let's us get flank charges very easily especially with urgency.

Magic
Oh my god they have a 700 point level 4 wizzard and 2 300 point Lvl 2's and some 200 point guy who gives that 250 point plaugebearers unit regen and a 400 point units thats a LVL 3 wizzard so much magic!

If they spend all those points in magic where's the army? It's not realistic to spend that many points in magic and be competitve. You will probably face a 2 lvl 3's and 2 lvl 1's. and thats around 1200 points right there, if your opponent is magic heavy.

Now remeber he probably wont have too many despell dice so it's very likely that you will be able to get spells off especially since they have a lack of despell scrolls.

incantation of summoning not overly useful but it never really is use it if need be but don't force it throug otherwise. Incantation of urgency can really be a game changer (like always) use iit on your charriots to help them get flanks and such. Also remember you can use urgency to back away from the oncoming enemy. Smiting always good especially on a catapult or a big unit of bowmen, use this repeatedly as it's the best way to kill off those small units of flamers or that pesky unit of flesh hounds. Magic missile not too good (never is) but certainly has it's uses in this match up especially against the small exspencive units or devestating but fragile characters.

Shooting
BOWMEN BOWMEN LOTS OF BOWMEN AND CATAPULTS, these will seriously win the game if their in numbers. Smiting them repeatedly will do a ton of damage whatch as that 400 point LVL 3 unit of horrors is reduced to LVL 1. This is especially nasty if coupled up with khadlia giving them all poison.

Combat
We don't have too much in the way of fighting a daemon, but it is possible tomb guard and scorpions can killing blow a herald to death and static combat rez (what we excel at will be the end to a small unit of daemonettes) and with urgency's we can get flanks of those big units of plaugebearers that don't die to shooting. A TK with DOE can put a big dent in a greater daemon as even a tomb prince with a ret weapon. Ushabti are also good.

If your fighting a character or something that can charge your block of tomb guard and consistently win (bloodthirster), challenge it with your champion and bring him back and challenge him again this will minimize casulties.

But it's best to stay away from combat and shoot them.

Here is a sample army that I would take if I knew I was fighting daemons.

Lord
Khadlia 420

Heros
Priest- cloak of dunes hieratic jar 160

priest- 2 scrolls 165

prince- great weapon 104

Core
20 bowmen- asp 200

20 bowmen- asp 200

3 chariots 120

18 tomb guard- standard bearer icon of rakaph 280 (joined by prince and khadlia)

Special
scorpion 85

scorpion 85

3 ushabti 195

Rare
catapult 90

cascket of souls 165

This comes close to 2250.

So there you have it.

Aranel
06-07-2008, 18:27
If its possible could i take High Elves?

It seems to me a very viable tactic against any sort of Demon force is to go pretty mahgic heavy. That way you can protect your fragile units from nasty Tzeentchy things and go on the offensive against armies of other powers. the great thing about High elves is their magical versatility, each mage being able to pick from nine lores and having access to magic items that can almost guarntee getting the most effective spells against any given army. I've never been one for tailoring my forces to fight certain enemies, but an archmage with the silver wand and a lv2 with the seerstaff is a very solid magical core to the army. Korhil is useful to add some punch to your infantry line and makes his unit stubborn. Combine this with the Lion standard and you have a unit which is unlikely to break. A small unit of archers is useful espcially when backed up with 2 RBT's you can have some very versatile ranged power. With little shooting in the Demon forces, Swordmasters come into their own; its cheesy but putting Korhil with them means that can act as an effective anvil as well. White lions have theri uses in this situation as well. investing in a lion chariot is worth thinking about as it can be used in tandem with infantry blocks to beat the demons. The same can be said of Dragon Princes. Shadow warriors and great eagles should also be considered as both can easily march block and really annoy your opponent very quickly.

Makaber
06-07-2008, 19:02
As a general tip when you know you're facing some sort of Daemon list: Killing Blow works excellent so it's well worth investing it if its available for your army of choice. The usefulness of Killing Blow is universal in that it allows you to off the essensial heroes on a lucky roll, but far more significant is its effect against most Khornate and Nurlish units.

Against Khorne troops, you can take off both wounds on their most powerful units (Fleshhounds and Juggernauts), and in the case of the latter, you ignore their significant armour save as well.

Against Nurgle troops, Killing Blow will bypass their Regeneration, making it a lot easier to kill off troops, and more significantly, the heralds providing the Regeneration in the first place.

Tuch
06-07-2008, 20:36
Another good move whith Greenskins is to place Night Goblin Units on the flanks with nets and at least 2 Fanatics. This will make your opponet think twice before sending the 20 move Daemon up the flank on turn 1 as he won't be charging on turn 1 (unless you went first and moved them) and terror checks are 8" just like the Fanatic release point. If he stays back abit you still can move them, not charge, close enough to release without making any fear checks. 2 - 3 D6 S5 hits at -3 armor save will make even the Greater Daemons think before rushing in much more so with other Daemon types. Good hits with bad save can nail them hard. Even the fear of fanatics could casue them to hesitate and possibly give an extra turn of shooting.

Likewise the nets can really cut the power from Daemonettes making them as wimpy as the goblins.

Night Gobblins on the flanks also have the advantage of not causeing the Orcs to flee if you are sure to only place Orc units within the 6" radius near them in case the terror/fear gets the better of them.

Kerill
07-07-2008, 05:35
@Makaber I've added the killing blow bit in as well, thanks for that.

I thought it might be useful to include some example lists for Daemons (and those of you who are writing an army tactica sticking in an example list at the end might help).

My list (2000 points) is a core heavy Tzeentch List with nurgle support:

Tzeentch Herald, burning chariot, master of sorcery 200
Tzeentch Herald, burning chariot, master of sorcery
Nurgle herald, palanquin, vapours, stream of bile, BSB, unholy victory 290 points
The Blue Scribes 81 points

Characters: 771 points
26 Horrors, standard, banner:sorcery 339 points
26 Horrors, standard, banner:sorcery 339 points
13 Plaguebearers, FC: Seeping decay 211 points
5 Furies 60 points

Core: 949 points
5 flamers 175 points
3 Flamers 105 points

Rare: 280 points

Big Al's Tournament Winning Khorne Daemons

Bloodthirster: immortal fury, firestorm blade, Spell Breaker, Armor of khorne
Herald of Khorne: Juggernaut, Firestorm Blade, Armor of khorne, BSB, great standard of sundering
Herald of Khorne: Juggernaut, Firestorm Blade, Armor of khorne
Herald of Khorne: Juggernaut, Firestorm Blade, Armor of khorne
10 Bloodletters
10 Bloodletters
10 Bloodletters
5 Flesh hounds
5 Flesh hounds
5 Flesh hounds
5 Flesh hounds

Negative Money's Baltimore Overall Winner List

Keeper: lvl 4, Transfixing Gaze, Allure of Slaanesh, Sirens Song (did not use once btw), Torment Blade.

Herald of Slaanesh: BSB, Icon of Despair, Steed of Slaanesh, Daemonic Robes, Allure of Slaanesh.

The Masque

10 Daemonettes w/ musician
10 Daemonettes
10 Daemonettes

5 Furies
5 Furies
5 Furies

5 Seekers of Slaanesh: Champion, Standard, Sirens Standard
5 Seekers of Slaanesh: Champion, Standard, Sirens Standard

1 Fiend of Slaanesh
1 Fiend of Slaanesh

Early version of General of Chaoss (Multiple GT winner) Tzeentch Flying Circus

Fateweaver [General]
Skulltaker / on Jugg
Blue Scribe
Tzeentch Herald w/ Power Vortex & Wings

14 Horrors
10 Bloodletters
10 Bloodletters

5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds

6 Flamers
6 Flamers

Can't find any nurgle lists that have done particularly well at the minute.

Ward.
07-07-2008, 06:48
Anti-Daemon = Skaven tactica

A few general tips, keep your characters out of combat with heralds and such, at all costs, don't worry about trying to keep support units inside a leadership bubble (this one should be obvious, but we don't get any benefit from it). Maximise the number of attacks going back at the daemons (target tzeentch and nurgle heralds if you can, slaanesh ones if you plan to flank the unit), keep your core rank and file units large.

units to target/ avoid: greater daemons, flesh hounds, daemonnettes + Seekers, beasts of nurgle and flamers. Flesh hounds deserve a special mention, they move fast and can break a clanrat unit before you have a chance to support it. As does the masquea and slaanesh stuff in general, kill anything that looks like it will be messing with leadership as fast as you can.

Lords:
Warlord: As always, Protect him. The leadership he grants is more important then it normally is.

Grey seer: Nothing special here, plague seems more deadly then ever against the daemon army. the bell however is almost rendered useless because none of it's affects are all that useful against the daemons.


HEROS:

Chieftain: There are two ways to go, the standard loadout or the cautious shield route. Against anything but slaanesh troops the ability to strip 2 attacks off of something is gold and even if you only choose to take one away the standard block of bloodletters and plaugue bearers no longer has the ability to overcome a clanrats/ stormvermin blocks 5+ static combat res.

Engineer's: Not much to say, the investment in some warpstone charms could pay off later on in the game when you're facing the banner of +2 casting cost. If you do come up against it you might consider only attempting the lower level version of the spell as it's more likely to go off and will still be killing expensive daemons.

assassins: A bit "meh" really, the common loadout doesn't help against deamons and they're still only offering 3 st4 poison attacks, something that you can pretty much get for 80 points less from a gutter runner champion. The high weapon skill and initiative on the other hand will let them strike first against core daemons and you're likely to hit then wound with all three attacks.


CORE:
Slaves: I don't personally use them much but the checkerboard deployment is as effective against daemons as it is against everything else. Stick em on your flanks to buy yourself a turn or two when your opponent sends furies, greater daemons and Calvary type units at you.

Clanrats: There are 3 armies that I've found spears to be useful against, these are daemons, vampire counts and tombkings. Thanks to T3 those extra attacks can make a critical difference because any extra wounds can lead to extra instability wounds.
Keep your units at 25 to 30, an unsupported unit of 25 clanrats can be expected to last at most, 2 rounds against any unit in the daemons book while 30 can last 3. If you do attempt to support a clanrat unit don't use nightrunners with a single weapon or slaves against anything with more then 1 attack/ strikes first if it's got more then 2 ranks (unless you want to hold the unit in place while your clanrats flee and hopefully rally). if it comes down to charging or getting charged, hit them first.

Weapon teams: Warpfire throwers are the best choice against nurgle troops (if your group plays with them counting as flaming the reason is obvious, if it doesn't the S5 D3W will be enough to get around the high toughness and regeneration). rattling guns against everything else.

Stormvermin: Same as clanrats, except they'll kill more, die slightly faster and cost a lot.

Night runners: susceptible to fear/ terror but great when all you need them to do is stand still and run from chargers. Due to a daemonic legions desire to get in combat and the skaven armies desire to stay out of it there will usually be plenty of table quarters left during turn 5-6 that will need capturing. Great place to stick an engineer when facing a combat heavy army or one with limited shooting/ magic. best unit size is 5, preferred target is rear charges and table quarters.

Giant rats: border line useless due to being essentially unarmored clanrats. Although they're good as cheap screens and you will eventually run out of night runners for bait and fleeing, something which will become very useful against the daemons.

Poison wind globadiers: Not all that helpful against daemons, good for winning in the deployment phase though. Two units of 2 are better then 1 unit of 4.

Rat swarms: Give them poison or don't bother with them, even with poison they won't do a lot.

SPECIAL:
Gutter runners: lone characters (looking at you masque and scribes) and beasts of nurgle beware, Probably the best choice after plague monks, they can dish out enough attacks with a decent weapons skill to win combat and even if they fail a fear test it's the poisoned 6's that really mattered. Best use is purely support how ever and leadership 7 will only keep them around for a few turns at best, so make them count. preferred unit size is 5, best targets are horrors (if they're tunneling), seekers of slaanesh and weakened greater daemons.

Plague monks: The closest thing to a beat stick against daemons, they're relatively cheap and with the addition of death frenzy from your grey seer and a deacon they can put out 16 - 21 attacks which won't only be hitting on 6's thanks to frenzy. Don't expect them to take a charge well though, once frenzies gone they're unarmored clanrats, so if any unit deserves/ needs the war banner and a screen, it's these guys. Best unit size is 15-20 or to be deployed 6X3 and sent up a flank. Preferred targets are daemonic core and anything you can get the charge on.

Jezzials: Use as normal, best targets are greater daemons and flesh hounds/ calvary with their range and high strength giving khorne heralds on jugger and horror/ flamer units something to think about.

Rat ogre's: Generally considered useless, low leadership lets them down otherwise the 3 S5 attacks would be great against nurgle and special units.

RARE:
Censor bearers: Not all that effective against daemons for their cost, all the expensive stuff that you want to wound has a high toughness and a ward and the stuff that is likely to fail that toughness test can kill plague censor bearers quickly.

Warplightning cannon: Use as normal, the best thing about it is that most things in the daemon army will want to get close to you and will be ranked, the worst is that daemons also have access to a lot of flying/ high movement units so it will probably be panicked off the table before it can be put to use. Best use is to take two and use the one that doesn't have to flee to shoot the greater daemon that just panicked his partner off the field.

I'll add the sample list later.

Griffin
08-07-2008, 12:40
Here's a random thought into the mix - Saurus oldblood with Blade of realities on a Carnosaur. Can't you take a banehead aswell then - 1w=2w.

SPYDER68
08-07-2008, 14:14
As a general tip when you know you're facing some sort of Daemon list: Killing Blow works excellent so it's well worth investing it if its available for your army of choice. The usefulness of Killing Blow is universal in that it allows you to off the essensial heroes on a lucky roll, but far more significant is its effect against most Khornate and Nurlish units.

Against Khorne troops, you can take off both wounds on their most powerful units (Fleshhounds and Juggernauts), and in the case of the latter, you ignore their significant armour save as well.

Against Nurgle troops, Killing Blow will bypass their Regeneration, making it a lot easier to kill off troops, and more significantly, the heralds providing the Regeneration in the first place.

Sorry, Juggernauts do not have 2 wounds... they are 1 wound mounts not even monsterous....

Makaber
10-07-2008, 02:22
Sorry, Juggernauts do not have 2 wounds... they are 1 wound mounts not even monsterous....

Oh, I know. But (if I'm not mistaken) the Bloodletter rider happens to have 2 wounds.

Chicago Slim
10-07-2008, 04:04
But (if I'm not mistaken) the Bloodletter rider happens to have 2 wounds.

The number of wounds is beside the point, at least as far as Killing Blow is concerned: it works against models of US 2 or less. Since Bloodcrushers are "cavalry" models (despite their oversize base), they're US 2, and thus eligible...

Makaber
11-07-2008, 21:51
The number of wounds is beside the point, at least as far as Killing Blow is concerned: it works against models of US 2 or less. Since Bloodcrushers are "cavalry" models (despite their oversize base), they're US 2, and thus eligible...

I know, I was referring to Killing Blow knocking off both wounds, not if they were affected by it or not.

Kerill
12-07-2008, 14:06
@Ward & Bunny Lord, nice work. Might I suggest on the rat ogre thing though that if you have a spare special slot free (not common I'll admit) it makes a pretty reliable redirector since it causes fear already.

I've been as busy as hell lately I'm afraid so it will be a few days before I can add the special characters section, we still have quite a few armies that need support if there are any more volunteers.

Storak
13-07-2008, 00:18
Another good move whith Greenskins is to place Night Goblin Units on the flanks with nets and at least 2 Fanatics. This will make your opponet think twice before sending the 20 move Daemon up the flank on turn 1 as he won't be charging on turn 1 (unless you went first and moved them) and terror checks are 8" just like the Fanatic release point. If he stays back abit you still can move them, not charge, close enough to release without making any fear checks. 2 - 3 D6 S5 hits at -3 armor save will make even the Greater Daemons think before rushing in much more so with other Daemon types. Good hits with bad save can nail them hard. Even the fear of fanatics could casue them to hesitate and possibly give an extra turn of shooting.

Likewise the nets can really cut the power from Daemonettes making them as wimpy as the goblins.

Night Gobblins on the flanks also have the advantage of not causeing the Orcs to flee if you are sure to only place Orc units within the 6" radius near them in case the terror/fear gets the better of them.

night goblins on the flank have to test against terror when being charged...

eyeolas
27-05-2009, 12:55
I know a couple of people have given a quick summery, but I'll write up a full OnG anti daemon tacticia. I've been wanting to write up an anti daemon army anyway, so it will help me organise my thoughts

eyeolas
27-05-2009, 16:13
Orcs and Goblins, the anti-daemon tactica

Well, with one of the least rated army books in the game as of yet, most people wouldnít give OnGs a chance at beating the best, but they do have a few nasty surprises that can work wonders is used right, and with a little luck, some of the things you wouldnít normally rate become very deadly indeed

Magic items:
For defence, there have always been the few favourites. The staff of sneaky stealin is always a good buy, and morkís spirit totem equally good, and when youíre facing a magic heavy daemon army, these could prove to save a handful of models each turn. Staff of sorcery, although usually ignored in favour of scrolls, suddenly becomes quite useful on the tournament scene, where daemons will often be spitting out a heap of low casting value spells, whether itís the nurgle bound items, the low CV magic missiles of tzeentch, or the ever feared stupidity causing spell coming from the lv 1 slaanesh heralds (itís also useful when facing vampires, one of the other major tournament players)

For a bit of offence in combat, a couple of items suddenly make their mark against daemons. The tricksy trinket, although goblin only, packs a massive wallop against all but nurgle block units, and when combined with a goblin big boss on chariot with your favoured weapon (the akrit axe I recon takes the cake, but the best basha and one hit wunda are also pretty hefty), this can make a massive mess of any daemonic unit save crushers and regen plaguebearers (on the charges, thatís d6+1 impact hits that kill on 2s!, not to mention the 3 rr to hit killing on 2s attacks from the rider, and 4 other attacks from the model should also net you a kill. That an average of 6-7 kills! Get lucky with the impact hits and it can be more like 8-9 kills, thatís one hell of a punch for a 120ish pt goblin, as he could then very easily win combat by 3-4, he should take of another few, leaving a unit that was 15 now down to its front rank! He could even go on to win that there combat! (this loses some punch when you get challenged, but the impact hits still kill the unit and not the champion. And if that was on his own, try a combo charge with a second chariot and see what happens

The other item that really does spring out at you in the skull wand of kaloth. If your someone like me that likes a bit of risk, try a savage orc great shaman with skull wand, kickin boots, waagh paint and the collar of zorga. You suddenly have yourself one of THE best greater daemon killers in the game. Heís a lv 4 shaman getting +2 to cast in combat, meaning he can try things like ASF and rr to hit to get 2-3 hits on a greater daemon in combat, which isnít too shabby when you think he then has to pass 2-3 ld tests on ld 9 or die instantly, and even if he passes then the savage orc has the collar to survive a bit better

The screamin sword is a bit more useful now, as daemon armies tend to have 3 block units plonked right next to each other with a herald in each. A goblin warboss with the above combo, + enchanted shield, should rip his way through any daemon unit unless its nurgle with herald (often palanquin and always strikes last herald)

The iron gnashas will also become useful over the kickin boots for the simple reason that you need to be able to kill characters when fighting daemons to get rid of the *********** bsb and the bonuses heralds give to their units (because letís face it, daemon units arenít nearly as bad without regen, ASF, hatred or a 4+ ward save are they, and without the herald to add some kills, the suddenly seem very manageable)


Characters:
For your lord (youíll need a lord), an orc is probably your best bet for the ld boost. On the centre of your army can never hurt for the ld bubble, but wyverns can be very good for getting around the seemingly invincible wall many daemon armies play with (3-4 block units of around 18 guys just walking forward, pretty dull to play, even duller to lose to with OnGs, as I found out at devourer), but always make sure your wyvern isnít miles away, because he may be a good combat unit that can break ranks, but the ld boost he gives your army should be his primary role. The option of a shaman is always just as tempting. The OnG miscast table makes him a little risky, and at tornys you generally donít want to risk your near 300 pts general blowing himself up, especially vs daemons, leaving your goblin units to use their own ld to fight with. Although as shown above, there are some good combos you can use with him, and if anything else he adds 2 dispel dice to your pool

Heroes, the first one you should always take is a bsb, usually a black orc with morkís spirit totem, which as stated above will prove immeasurably useful at keeping your troops alive, but goblin banners with things like 12Ē panic rr or poisoned attacks can also prove pretty useful (especially if youíre going for the 100 strong unit of goblin archers with poisoned bows, aimed at the nearest monster so all 100 can shoot (trust me, it isnít a great tactic, as against everything else the front rank is the only thing firing (hills arenít big enough and you donít have the rang to sit on one), which is pretty bad for the points invested, let along the chance is squabbles

For the other two slots, one if not both of them should be shamans. If you donít plan on fielding more than 6 levels of magic, forget it and get a caddy, daemons have too good defence to worry about this sort of pitter patter, and it wonít nearly get you back the points (and hero slots) you invested in it. However, OnG magic does get quite interesting vs daemons (see below). If you take just a single caddy and youíve got one slot left, the best thing I can suggest is either the above goblin boss on chariot to give you some real combat potential, or an orc boss to spread out some more ld and give one of your units a better combat potential, which youíll need if you want to be able to stand up to a daemon unit without much support


Magic:
Both the big and little waaagh!s have always had some good spells, but when fighting daemons, they can become some of the best spells in the game.

The little waaagh!
Gaze of gork is terrible vs daemons. Its only good side is ignoring saves, which can be useful if you see bloodcrushers, but since they are very rarely fielded, its almost always better to not drop the spell

Brain bursta is always a good spell, no matter the circumstance, just make sure you donít point it at anything with MR above 1, else it can get to be a waste of pd

Gorkíll fix it has always been good, but now it is simply great. The ability to half the effectiveness of ward saves is priceless, the nullification of killing blow and poison makes you survive much longer in combat (even more so than the spell usually helps), and vs things with lots of attacks it just whitles away those potential hits and wounds to the point where scary combat units donít look so scary. Try and combine it with the collar of zorga and you suddenly have a model that is untouchable vs a greater daemon for 2 rounds of combat, not to bad when heís taking skull wand based ld tests :P

Foot of gork is, as always, very situational. If you are facing a tzeench army that likes to fly around with heralds out of units, then its great, as it forces those annoying flyers to stay in units or to risk getting zapped. The other use is against furies and screamers, anything that isnít a block unit really, as it can even have a good go at scratching down a greater daemonís wounds so your bolt throwers can have a more realistic chance of killing him

Hand of gork, brilliant. The ability to move around then flank charge daemons is amazing, as your block units tend to not be fast enough to do this without being charged just before pulling the trigger. The added ability of ignoring fear also helps out tonnes if cast on that unit of 30 goblins with nets and spears, intent on holding the opponents (works on anything, as even daemonettes suddenly sound goblins on 5s, countering their 2 attacks, and with your spears you have a good chance of getting aocuple of wounds back, winning combats most rounds (SCR of 6 vs their 1 goes a long way). The other ability to charge flamers without getting, well, flamed, is a great added bonus to a unit that usually is able to crush anything in the OnG army book single handedly

Mork wants ya!, as always, tends to be a bit overpriced, but can find a few instances of great use, against the guys OnGs struggle massively with, plaguebearers. If you can get this off on a herald or a unit champion (most likely so you can challenge and kill the herald in combat without the champ getting in the way), then there is a very realistic chance you can kill them, just hope he fails two regen saves and the unit suddenly becomes killable, how great is that! But realistically, itís unlikely to happen, and tends to be more of a money shot to try 1ce in a game at a key point in time rather than something to base strategy on

The big waaagh!

Gaze of mork, not much to say, itís not bad for being so cheap, and should always be considered a good trade in for another spell if you want an easy spell or two to start the magic phase

Ďeadbut come on leaps and bounds against daemons. The ability to snipe characters is SOO useful vs daemons, where those pesky heralds seem to be single handedly wiping you out, the unit heís in is making too good a use of the extra ability he gives, or its the damn bsb, Whatever the situation, the opportunity to throw a couple of sniper shots his way is always one to be taken. ALWAYS take the ring if you intend to be casting magic, this is a general point, not one for vs daemons, itís that good.

Bash em lads, cast it, and you suddenly have a realistic chance at winning a combat 1 on 1. The ASF tends to be the bit I find more useful, where my poor orcs usually get the front rank killed off before they can attack (and at that point youíve lost combat by a fair bit and will flee), but the rr to hit has its uses as well in getting you a kill or two more, which can be all the difference between them getting 12 on their instability test, or you failing double 1 by losing to fear causing enemies

Fists of gork tends to not be a great spell against daemons unless you opponent has the MASSIVE (30+) unit of horrers, where it is very usefull. Bloodletters and daemonettes will also die pretty well to it if they are in large enough numbers, but as daemons tend to be in smaller units (max 18 i tend to find) its usefulness is limited

Gorkís warpath has always been a bit of a shame really. With so many units that would get trounced by it on your side, it tend to not be worth casting it, and as a 10+ spell, your chances in the first place are slim. But, it does still have the same usefulness as the foot of gork, so if you see your playing tzeentch flying circus, keep it and hope for a few 5+s

WAAAGH! Just take all the advantages of the hand of gork AND of bash em lads, and multiply it by the number of units in your army, then multiply it by 10 for each of those units that arenít orcs. Not much need to be said about it. If you have lots of artillery, then its probably worth moving the crew in a congo line behind the machine in the movement phase (3 crew can make a 6Ē line behind their machine, which when they move 2d6Ē forward, they will still be in coherency with their machine, and hence can still fire it (the rulebook says nothing about crew moving, only if the machine moves :D)). Aside from that little thing, and making sure your units you donít want to get into combat are a safe distance away, have fun with trying to cast it with immeasurable dice and stones. Iíd see if you opposed daemon player has any scroll equivalents (I am one for the ďyou canít NOT tell me if I ask youĒ), because these will ruin your day after using two stones and a couple more power dice. Also, itís for this spell that I always give an orc shaman a stone if possible, you never know when it will get used to win a game (or blow your wizard open, but that beside the point)

Core:
Orc boyz are fairly limited in what they can do, as they really should be in combat, and against daemons thatís just asking for trouble. Spears are now a good option, but youíll be lucky to hold after the first round of combat without a good character, so using them is a rarity
Goblins of both varieties tend to be a bit better vs daemons than most others. Their large numbers tend to make them avoid auto flee vs fear, so they always have a chance at making ld, and with spears they can actually dish out some attacks back, which youíd be surprised what they can do to t3 5+ sv opponents (I run 6x5, so 13 attacks is pretty hefty). The addition of fanatics also makes them great for flank blocking, and makes them a good counter for hounds, as if they charge, theyíll take 2d6 str 5 hits, and will often not be left with enough to win combat by enough to break you, and after youíve got them down to critical mass, you should win the war of attrition. Nets should be considered mandatory, as theyíre trying to win by CR, and this means not dying so quickly (if you net yourself it isnít a great loss as youíre not the ones primarily relying on kills for CR)
Savage orcs, hello! Daemons canít do much to redirect, as all their skirmishers are either sitting at the back (flamers) or fly, so canít sit in terrain baiting you. The inability to flee also means very good CC units on the charge will stand the best chance at killing daemons than just about anything else (a strategy no normally employed by OnGs, but death star can occasionally work. With spears or dual choppas (personal taste really, its weather you expect to charge or be charged, or whether you will be using ASF to get your choppa attacks in first. Either way they should do pretty well, especially until they lose combat, where they can ignore the pesky fear tests that always seem to spoil your plans. Iíd say if you can afford a big unit of them (as in money, theyíre metal after all), then Iíd try and fit them in, as you could be very pleasantly surprised

Big un, as stated above under the Ďdeath stars work well vs daemonsí, can be a very good buy if you can protect them from magic and flamers (or better yet if your opponent has none). The WS boost helps vs horrers and bearers, and the str boost is always welcome when trying to get as many kills as possible, minimising attacks back. Just make sure you get these guys the charge and theyíll do fine (magic being the best way). Add in bash em lads and a black orc big boss and these guys will stand a very good chance vs even a particularly nasty unit of bearers that refuse to die (assuming no ASL ofc)

Fast cavalry, always good. Their use as rank breakers is pretty limited due to fear (and they die easily, giving the opponent free kills), but as redirectors and march blockers they are always good and should always be present in any non themed OnG list (at tornies you shouldnít be limiting yourself further with OnGs anyway). Short bows might be an idea as daemon units tend to not take ablative wounds, and every kill helps the Ďoutnumbered by fear causing enemyí cause, not to mention if you can knock off a rank. Musicians are mandatory, as you should expect to be fleeing a fair bit, and they give you a sixth of a better chance to regroup, which is very good for 6 pts. Avoid shielded wolves though, they just donít have the punching power, static CR or ld to do much

Snotlings, I never really use them, but against daemons they can prove quite useful as shields and redirectors, but thatís about all you can get from them. Their ld of 4 wonít do much, even though their stubborn, and as soon as their in combat their free VPs, so only take the necessary number and never more (4 is probably the max per unit, 12 wounds is enough, and the frontage is sufficient to block any shooting

eyeolas
27-05-2009, 16:13
Specials:
Black orcs. The marmite of OnGs, love or hate them, they can do pretty well. Being the bravest helps pass ld tests, no animosity helps plans go ahead as planned (a rarity), and their hitting power can prove pretty god vs some daemons. A magic banner is pretty well mandatory, just because the 3 options are all so cheap. Vs daemons it’s a question of whether you think you’ll get the charge or not. If not then get the waaagh! banner, and if so, take the butchery banner (pretty self explanatory). Stick in a sufficiently beefy character (grimgor in the extremes) and you get a death star that is actually pretty likely to win combats by a good margin, and will quick possibly get rid of the whole unit in a couple of turns. Grimgor himself can stand up to any herald, just make sure you’ve got a champ to accept challenges in his place, because you really want grimgor to be hitting the basic troopers if not a herald

Boar boyz, they’re generally a good unit, but become so much better when made into savage orc boars. The frenzy is very little downside for a very big upside when fighting an army that can’t bait too well. Make them big ‘uns as well and you have a real powerhouse. 6 wide, or 5+character will probably do, else the unit will get expensive, but the potential damage they can pull off is sufficient to always want to take a unit. The added effect of frenzy that mean you ignore fear means savages are a must over basic orcs when expecting daemons (or other armies that can’t bait well), as for 4 pts you get a truck load of str 5 attacks extra. Try and get bash em lads or the waaagh! Spell off and see what happens when you combine 4 str 5 attacks per model with rr to hit. For banners, either the waaagh or butchery one will do, again depending on what you think will be more useful (I tend to find with savage orc big ‘uns, the waaagh banner is more universally useful, as the butchery banner can be overkill against some, and is useless if you can’t get into combat in the first place

Artillery (I’ll deal with as a whole) is a must have in any good OnG list. For tornies, spear chukkas should be deemed mandatory (especially with the sudden surge of greater daemons, stegadons, dragons and manticores around, and doom divers are exceptionally good at taking heavy cavalry and monsters alike. The rock lobber is a dirt cheap way of giving your opponent’s block units something to fear, and for 70 (75 since the bully is so good for 5 pts) pts, it can do a lot of damage when you roll a hit. Just make sure you get some guess range practice in. All three’s ability to ignore saves is also a god send to OnGs, who tend to struggle in combat vs heavy knights and heavy troopers (HA, HW+S tends to be where we start to struggle, as str 5 is prominent in the army, but anything higher is a rarity.

Squigs of both types are brilliant vs daemons. Herds have the ability to run in, make a whole load of attacks (against horrers, 3s then 2s, letters and nettes 4s then 2s), then even if they lose combat they keep on killing (let’s face it, any unit in our book that loses combat to daemons is probably running anyway and won’t do much the rest of the game, so the insta kill isn’t a big loss). Thier immune to psych is a great bonus aswell, and their dirt cheap, so a static CR of 4 should be pretty easy (120 or 150 pts, depending on what frontage you like). Hoppers have these bonuses, but are more expensive, but more versatile. As one of the two units in our book that can go through terrain, they have a place in every list, and the ability to charge things out of sight or in terrain is all the more reason to take some. However, they won’t last long against a block unit, as they can’t cut ranks, and kills are harder to come by vs daemons than most, so be weary to not point them towards the blocks, as if you go far enough it’ll just be a suicide charge (which can’t be all bad for a blitz unit at 75/90 pts, but they can be used for much more). Their other ability to guard your backs from flyers, and this is what they excel at vs the tzeentch circus (yet another reason to stay in those units)

Chariots, although generally good, do lose some bonuses they have vs daemons. The ward save limits the damage they can do on the charge, and their inability to break means chariots will never come out on top of a combat. Their low US also means they’ll instant flee vs a block unit, low ld means they’ll struggle to charge in the first place, and makes them a bad support unit, as you can never really rely on them getting the charge (general being nearby helps). The added loss of being a special choice means that vs daemons they are often better used points somewhere else (hoppers will do the same job better most of the time vs daemons)

Rares:
Trolls never have been a great choice, but against daemons the ability to ignore is a good one (although the daemons ignore theirs, which is a loss). Their vomit ability loses impact due to them not having saves, and they generally won’t hit hard enough to do sufficient damage to overcome static CR

Giants, as always are hit and miss. Terror helps ignore the psychology part of daemons, and their potential attacks can be very nice, but what they excel at is sitting in front of a unit and not dying/breaking. Unfortunately, you can’t do this vs daemons, as you’ll get killed by just about any of the basic troops (save horrers, and if it is a tzeentch only list then expect him to get blasted by a turn of flamers), so generally, he isn’t the greatest option out there, but the attractive nature of his random attacks can be helpful. Auto win by 2 is amazing against daemons, where the average unit tests at ld 6. Pick up and it especially good at getting at heralds, but swing with club and jump up and down tend to not do enough damage to win combats, and with his low init, he can’t expect to be going before anyone else next turn (and at that point he’ll die fairly quickly)

Pump wagons just became amazing. For 40 pts you get a unit that can’t be run from, doesn’t care about fear, and can do a massive heap of damage. Just kill 3 daemons and he’s about made his points back. Don’t expect him to last long with ld 4 and such a week defence to combat attacks, but on the charge there is a fairly realistic chance that he can win the combat (and not get attacked back save champion and possibly herald), so he’ll stick around for at least the opponent’s turn, making him great at slowing the opponent down (while he’s in combat he march blocks as well!). This can often give you time to position flank charges etc which can make him the best 40 pts you ever spend, and with 2 for 1 rare choice, there is very little reason to not take at last 2 (doom divers being the only other good choice vs daemons, and they’re the same points...


Summary- Magic items can help a lot, be sure to have a glance back at all those forgotten magic items because when OnGs focus on a particular target, they often have the right tool for the job.
- A good magic phase can turn a loss into a win with spells like the waaagh!, they just have that much potential, but remember the risks
- characters should generally be used to improve ld to those that need it, as this is a key issue for OnG armies, so keep the general close. Make sure you bring a bsb and some good magic defence as well, as it will save your ass when you need it most
Be sure to have lots of units, for both deployment purposes, and so it doesn’t matter when some inevitably die. Fast cavalry are your friends, and no block units should be on its own (that is to say, unsupportable if charged)
- Fill your special slots, those are what will win you the game. They house your hard hitters and your artillery, both of which are necessary to take out daemons
- Savages usually trump basic orcs, get some if you can spare the points
Don’t be afraid to not get into combat. If you have an ok magic and shooting phase, or your opponent has bearded out his list to the max, then sit on your back line for 6 turns and take the draw, it may not be fun. But neither is him destroying you with no effort with his barded list of death
- Be sure to kill the greater daemons quick, terror and their abilities to kill you (either combat or magic) will screw over any OnG army. For this reason, bring bolt throwers and other things that are supposed to kill monsters
Get some random movers. Expect something in a daemon army to be hiding one turn and behind you then next, so be sure you can get at it either before or after it flies over you


And finally, make sure you play to their level. If they have the most beardy list they could write, then play equally dully and make the game no fun. It doesn’t lose you anything (you won’t enjoy it anyway), so you may as well take a draw at a torny (personally, I’d tell them before the game that you intend to sit in the corner for 6 turns and offer them the draw then. This is especially true for the nurgle tally army, as OnGs have very little they can do about it, and once the tally is full, your screwed, plain and simple

However, if they have taken a moderate army, then give them a game of it, show them a smile and shake their hand. Last time I played devourer and got destroyed horribly by daemons I congratulated the guy and thanked him for not bearding out his list like we all know people can.


I hope that about covers it, tell me if I missed anything

kardar233
28-05-2009, 00:03
I'd just like to point out the currently accepted cheese-list-o'-doom:

Bloodthirster: Immortal Fury, Obsidian Armour, Firestorm Blade

Herald of Khorne: Armour of Khorne, Soul Hunger, BSB, Standard of Sundering OR Banner of the Gods

Herald of Tzeentch: Winged Horror, Power Vortex
Herald of Tzeentch: Winged Horror, Power Vortex

Horrors
More Horrors

Units of 5 Flesh Hounds

Lots of Flamers.

Don't have my Daemons book on hand so I can't say numbers, but that's the outline.