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Royal Tiger
04-07-2008, 14:11
I thought popped into my head yesterday, tabletop wargaming is a relatively popular hobby as a whole, and GW only cater for a VERY small piece of this hobby, warhammer fantasy, warhammer 40,000 and lord of the rings.

I believe that GW should expand upon this

now my question is this, would you prefer Games Workshop to be a GAMES Workshop?, allowing you to play ANY system you wanted in store, and any other companies games?.
they would still sell there own products, and in general concentrate only on there own products, but would allow you to play anything you wanted to in store.

now this I think would personally help GW, because it would get more gamers into the shops, they would see 40k, fantasy or LotR being played, and may be tempted to actually start collecting that system, which of course means GW gets money (which is all they want anyway).

Mad Doc Grotsnik
04-07-2008, 14:21
This is the worst idea I've ever heard!

GW is the biggest fish in a small pond. It has hit a rocky patch at the moment, but then, it's not alone (Rackham, anyone?)

Why would a Multinational Company want to give it's competitors space in it's own branded shops? It's like saying Burger King should attach a drive-thru KFC, as at least people will then be aware of Burger King.

blongbling
04-07-2008, 14:21
possibley the most ridiclous and crazy suggestion i have seen on warseer this year. why would GW want or let you do this? the joint summation of all other wargaming companies is less than 25% of GW's turnover.....what would they get from doing this....in a nutshell i agree with MDG

Brushmonkey
04-07-2008, 14:40
You crazy mutha hubbard...

Your idea is a bad one for the aforementioned reasons.:eek:

Foolish Mortal
04-07-2008, 14:57
I'd Have to add my voice to the nay sayers on this one - GW is GW - makes no sense to introduce you to other products from competitors in their stores.

Templar Ben
04-07-2008, 14:59
As a gamer I would love it.

I think it would be terrible for GW's business model. GW suffers in direct comparison. GW is able to maintain their position by creating a captive market where they can force you to use only GW product no matter what. Once that goes away people that want to play Fantasy could use much lower price figures and GW will lose sales.

GW needs to keep people away from other lines and this would work in the opposite direction.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
04-07-2008, 15:00
Again, trouble is GW don't produce the models for Historicals, thus very little money in it for them beyond the sale of rulebooks.

You play for free in GW stores as it a) Keeps the hobby ticking b) is free advertising for them.

arch_inquisitor
04-07-2008, 15:20
That's what indie stores are for not a branded shop. That would be like asking to try on cloths from the gap at lambercrombie & croft, what would be the point?.

Just because they offer an environment in which to play a game doesn't mean they should allow all games. Any company with a branded shop would have the same policy if Rakham had a branded shop it would be the same or a D&D branded shop and the list would go on. Not only would it be bad business it would be just plain tacky.

blongbling
04-07-2008, 15:44
if GW did do that it would likely kill off all the remaining indies.......

RobC
04-07-2008, 15:44
This is what Games Workshop was – but the Citadel buyout happened a very long time ago.

nurgle_boy
04-07-2008, 15:48
I would enjoy it, yes, but its a silly idea... GW stores are for GW products, and GW games, just like M&S is for M&S food, and M&S clothes (last time I checked they didnt carry branded gear... that was a few years back though...)

It would be like a posh restaurant saying 'ah welcome, oh, I see you broght a bottle of white lightning and a bag of McCoys. well, if you see someone eating something that you like, we will sell it too you, but dont worry about it!'
how many homeless people would you see in there for the warmth, and not for the food then, eh?

TheLionReturns
04-07-2008, 15:50
I must agree broadly with the comments made so far. There is little sense in promoting other company's rival products. Yes you may gain a revenue from it and perhaps some extra sales of their own products from those drawn closer to the GW hobby, but you will also loose a few to other systems and give the rivals the key thing they lack, decent exposure in the market place.

I do, however, think there is perhaps some scope for varying the products sold in GW stores. Stores that sold books (other scifi and fantasy literature as well as BL), computer games, maybe RPG's, as well as a range of non branded hobby supplies may bring in customers that may not normally consider tabletop wargaming and expose them to it. However, given the struggle for space already this means that much bigger shops would be needed. GW is not in a position to invest in this way at the moment I believe, and even then you have to justify the extra costs and investment through increased sales. I have no idea whether this would even work financially but it is perhaps an option.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
04-07-2008, 15:54
Actually, M&S are meant to be trialling certain, very specific household brands in their St Michael Food Stores. Things like Marmite, Heinz Tomato Ketchup etc.

sigur
04-07-2008, 16:41
Sounds a bit as if McDonald's opened "bring your own food"-restaurants. ;)

Seriously, your suggestion sounds bad. There's another thread floating around about the problems of opening a gaming club and trying to sell something in it and I think that some further problems of this business model can be found there.

Sai-Lauren
04-07-2008, 16:53
I have to agree with the general consensus, GW stores are for GW product - would you expect a Ford dealership to sell BMW cars, Warner Brothers merchandise at Disneyworld or the Manchester United club shop to carry Liverpool replica shirts?
(And how long would they last before they got torched if they were there? ;))

Don't forget that, as the point of sale, GW would also have to deal with any customer complaints, for no real extra income increase.

Independant shops are for all the companies.

Although I do also agree that they currently only cater for a small part of the table top hobby - they could certainly look at expanding into historicals (there's even the Warmaster Ancients rules sets for heaven's sake, and it probably wouldn't take a lot to license the existing figure ranges for it, if the studio aren't able to do them themselves).

There's also board games which could be added - be they genre games like Talisman (there's a reason it's a classic), or traditional games like Chess. And I can see playing cards re-using existing art on the backs being an impulse buy item - or maybe even go the whole hog and do a set as though they were the Emperor's Tarot cards. And as TheLionReturns says, there's also GW's licensed video games which could be included in store.

I'd also reintroduce the Inquisitor range as a collectors figure range.

About the only good thing from GW's point of view would be to allow them to analyse their competitors products and reverse engineer anything they wanted - which they can do easily enough anyway by sending someone to an indie with some cash.

But maybe the best thing GW can do with their IP is not to slather it all over everything they produce.

Chaos and Evil
04-07-2008, 17:02
I thought popped into my head yesterday, tabletop wargaming is a relatively popular hobby as a whole, and GW only cater for a VERY small piece of this hobby, warhammer fantasy, warhammer 40,000 and lord of the rings.

They also cater for:

Starship Combat gamers:
- Battlefleet Gothic

Adult Gamers wanting an Advanced Wargame:
- Epic
- Warmaster
- Battle of Five Armies

Gamers wanting a purely narative rather than competative game:
- Inquisitor

Gamers wanting a 'small gangs/warbands' experience:
- Necromunda
- Mordheim

Gamers wanting an aircraft combat game:
- Aeronautica Imperialis



But I bet you never tried any of those. :)

Ex-Blueshirt
04-07-2008, 17:04
Going to follow the crowd on this one, bad idea.

BattleBoxGaming
04-07-2008, 17:05
the joint summation of all other wargaming companies is less than 25% of GW's turnover

Have you got any sources to back that up? Not that I don't believe you, I'd just like to see the figures for myself.

Templar Ben
04-07-2008, 17:25
They also cater for:

Starship Combat gamers:
- Battlefleet Gothic

Adult Gamers wanting an Advanced Wargame:
- Epic
- Warmaster
- Battle of Five Armies

Gamers wanting a purely narative rather than competative game:
- Inquisitor

Gamers wanting a 'small gangs/warbands' experience:
- Necromunda
- Mordheim

Gamers wanting an aircraft combat game:
- Aeronautica Imperialis



But I bet you never tried any of those. :)

I thought someone had posted that GW stores in the UK were not allowing SG to be played since they were not carried in store. If someone was interested they were not able to buy.

starlight
04-07-2008, 17:28
They could buy through MO using the phone in the shop...:rolleyes:


Would *I* like other products in the shop...? Sure.:)


Would it be a good move for GW...? Of course not. :p

IJW
04-07-2008, 17:30
Have you got any sources to back that up? Not that I don't believe you, I'd just like to see the figures for myself.
I don't know about the 25% figure, but Rackham are one of the bigger wargames companies after GW and they are tiny in terms of turnover:

'06-'07
Rackham 200,000 (300,000 Euro)
Games Workshop 115,000,000

That's 0.17%. I'd think there are individual GW stores that have higher turnover than that. :eek:

Rackham had a higher percentage in '05-'06:
R 270K
GW 136M

0.2%

In other words, their sales fell even more than GW's did.

Figures taken from GW's investor site, and the assorted news articles about Rackham's bankruptcy protection announcements last year.

Ex-Blueshirt
04-07-2008, 17:32
Former manager of GW Bristol banned all non core games from vets nights at one point.
Pretty sure he saw the error of his ways and changed it though.

Templar Ben
04-07-2008, 17:41
Defining wargaming will help. Would that include games like HeroScape, D&D Minis, and WarMachine? If so the numbers change greatly.

Gaebriel
04-07-2008, 17:47
Good for the wargaming scene? Yes.

Good for GW? No.

I can't see any scenario in which GW actively exposing their customers to other wargaming products (be it miniatures, rules or hobby materials) would be beneficial to GW - I guess the sales lost on their own product would most likely not be made up for by the additional sales of other product.

GW works best in it's (admittedly huge) isolation.

lanrak
04-07-2008, 17:53
Hi all.
I was rather hoping that this thread was going to ask for GW to actualy develop thier games, rather than just expand thier core game minature ranges.
Which would be nice.

Or to support ALL GW games in store, so the SGs are made more accesable /available.
Which would be nice.

But to let the competition into the GW store , so people could directly compare GW products to others , defeats the whole point of having B&M stores!

And yes I remember Games Workshop before the Citadel Minatures buy out.(Gosh I am old arnt I ?)

Chaos and Evil
04-07-2008, 18:02
I thought someone had posted that GW stores in the UK were not allowing SG to be played since they were not carried in store. If someone was interested they were not able to buy.

Most stores are now allowing Specialist Games again.

They'll even help you buy them through their in-store computers (For free delivery).

Royal Tiger
04-07-2008, 20:42
They also cater for:

Starship Combat gamers:
- Battlefleet Gothic

Adult Gamers wanting an Advanced Wargame:
- Epic
- Warmaster
- Battle of Five Armies

Gamers wanting a purely narative rather than competative game:
- Inquisitor

Gamers wanting a 'small gangs/warbands' experience:
- Necromunda
- Mordheim

Gamers wanting an aircraft combat game:
- Aeronautica Imperialis



But I bet you never tried any of those. :)
actually I have tried all of those (except Aeronautica and battle of five armies, but theres no point buying systems nobody plays around here, waste of my money)

HOWEVER


I thought someone had posted that GW stores in the UK were not allowing SG to be played since they were not carried in store. If someone was interested they were not able to buy.

Former manager of GW Bristol banned all non core games from vets nights at one point.
all of these points go into my next answer

Most stores are now allowing Specialist Games again.
all of the 3 stores local to my area have made it quite clear, that specialist games cannot and will not be played in store, and nothing will change this

so were stuck with 40k (filled with power gamers so playing is more of a chore than a hobby)
and fantasy (a rule system I do not enjoy personally)
and LotR.............(a rule system which although better than the previous two, has no player base)

so theres not much to play really

They'll even help you buy them through their in-store computers (For free delivery).
there what now?


Defining wargaming will help. Would that include games like HeroScape, D&D Minis, and WarMachine? If so the numbers change greatly.
my definition of wargaming, would include all of those you listed yes, and any other miniature game system I can think of
Battletech
Flames of war (or warhammer 40'000 flames of war as it should be called)
Disposable heroes
etc etc etc

EightBall
04-07-2008, 20:44
No.

Then what difference would there be between GW stores and Indie-stores besides product?

rodmillard
04-07-2008, 21:18
Would it be a good idea for GW to carry other company's products? No
Would it be a good idea for GW to let people use other rules/minis in store? No
Would it be a good idea for GW stores to carry tie in products made by subsidiaries or under license (Black Industries, WFRP, DoW, Forge World)? Yes
Would it be a good idea for GW stores to carry the full range of specialist games? YES

Only problem is, most stores have difficulty finding players for LOTR, one of the core lines, never mind specialist games (I know several stores actively discourage players from getting into it).

Foolish Mortal
04-07-2008, 22:33
I think most people agree that to allow other systems to be played in GW shops is a bad idea.

On the subject of specialist games not been allowed, this is a real shame as it would open up a whole new world to gamers, and perhaps make them popular enough to support properly again. Thing is, the rules can be downloaded for free, so not much money to be had there, and many people play them with figures from other manufacturers and would quite happily point this out to new players, so would allowing them in shops really do anything to increase sales?

Sadly, as much as i would love GW to sell/support a much wider variety of games, I really can't ever see it happening - we cannot have 40K/WHFB suffering now can we?

Just a thought on modelling supplies (meaning things they don't currently sell), would it be of any advantage to GW to have an agreement with another/other company(ies) whereby GW has links for them on their website & vice versa?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
05-07-2008, 10:54
Most stores are now allowing Specialist Games again.

They'll even help you buy them through their in-store computers (For free delivery).

This is something I was going to bring up.

When I worked for GW (going back a shocking 3 or 4 years now!) we would allow SG to be played. Trouble is, people would try them out, buy the book off the shelf, and then Mail Order the bits they wanted from home, which wasn't exactly ideal for the store with targets to meet. Now, if we work that each gamer has a Finite amount of money to spend on their Hobby each month, the store would see progressively less of that the more people got into Specialist Games. Sure, the *Company* would still make it's money, but the stores would return unfairly negative results, which could lead to staff firings...

Bit extreme example I know, but thats what I understand the logic to be. But with the new system, currently being rolled out (Tunbridge Wells got theirs a couple of weeks ago, but BT are being idiots and haven't activated the necessary broadband). Far as I'm aware, this is all linked to the spanky Electonic tills, so the Store will make it's money on Mail Orders again.

Whether this leads to SG being played in store is anyones guess. Logically, it could, but that doesn't mean it will!

Earthbeard
05-07-2008, 11:27
I thought someone had posted that GW stores in the UK were not allowing SG to be played since they were not carried in store. If someone was interested they were not able to buy.


Every GW stroe in my local area allows SG games to be played.

In answer to this question, without some kind of company merger this is a bad, bad idea.

Vyperchild
05-07-2008, 12:41
No. Just no.

If you want to play another company's game, go to their store. GW is for GW.

Royal Tiger
05-07-2008, 12:57
If you want to play another company's game, go to their store. GW is for GW.
umm.........there store........right, brilliant :rolleyes:

seriously if people are gonna comment.......just......................nevermind

Gaebriel
05-07-2008, 13:07
If you want to play another company's game, go to their store. GW is for GW.
I'm soo tempted to sig that... :p

Hellfury
05-07-2008, 13:26
This is the worst idea I've ever heard!

GW is the biggest fish in a small pond. It has hit a rocky patch at the moment, but then, it's not alone (Rackham, anyone?)

Why would a Multinational Company want to give it's competitors space in it's own branded shops? It's like saying Burger King should attach a drive-thru KFC, as at least people will then be aware of Burger King.

Not quite.

GW did pretty well early on when they promoted other games in their white dwarf magazine. It was a GAME magazine at that point, not a GW magazine.

I do however agree that it would be suicide to include competitive brands in GW stores, as the monopoly in that environment is the only thing they have going for them.

Competing brands in the same place would eat alot of their monopolized revenue when consumers start comparing prices and quality.

I do however want to see Games workshop become GAMES workshop again, and not just the producers of 40K, WHFB, and LOTR.

They rose to greatness by making games such as Heroquest, space crusade, etc. All on the coattails of milton bradley.

Now that GW is getting a better grasp of their production situation, they could easily produce those games again in house. If for no other reason than to renew the copyright on the games as they did with the recent release of talisman to be licensed off to FFG.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
05-07-2008, 13:27
umm.........there store........right, brilliant :rolleyes:

seriously if people are gonna comment.......just......................nevermind

And thats the whole point. GW invest significant amounts of money to gain their high street presence. The other companies don't, or cannot afford to. So why should GW cut a competitor any slack?

RobC
05-07-2008, 13:34
Before this thread descends into pointless bickering:

Remember that GW has a massive stranglehold on the 'gaming' scene in the UK. There are very few independent games stores outside of the big cities, and those that do exist vary wildly in quality and clientele.

This is partly because once, back in the 80s, GW's shops weren't for GW products only. Sure, they carried their games, no doubt gave them pride of place, but they stocked whole ranges of stuff. The company got its break by signing distribution deals with TSR, acting as the UK's source of early roleplay stuff. The focus changed when GW was bought by Citadel, until in 1989 (I think) White Dwarf dropped non-GW stuff completely, and GW stores went the same way in the early 90s. I still recall seeing racks of RPG stuff in the old GW Manchester in around 1992, so the changeover certainly wasn't overnight.

But because GW stores were the main focus of many towns' gaming communities, the shift did a lot of damage. It's taken the better part of 20 years for the indie network to get back into shape, and even now it's nowhere near as strong as indies are in the USA. But that's GW saturation for you: if your first experience of wargaming comes from GW, you're not necessarily going to want to go down the less pleasant part of town, to a slightly seedy shop that stocks lots of things you've never heard of.

So, if GW hadn't done that, then yes, GW stocking non-GW products would be great. But there's very little way they will go back; not unless it can be proven that stocking non-GW products will increase turnover. If that happened, though, it would probably mean that GW's product sales were in serious decline.

Royal Tiger
05-07-2008, 13:48
I've just noticed that allot of posts keep saying things about GW stocking competing products in there store being a bad idea..............which I find strange since I never mentioned GW stocking other companies products

Mad Doc Grotsnik
05-07-2008, 13:53
Thats an even worse idea!

Free advertising for your competition, right next to your own products?

Total marketing suicide!

Hellebore
05-07-2008, 13:57
I think a bar would be cool. Who wouldn't want Bugman's everywhere in the world whilst children play toy soldiers amidst the beer suds?

hellebore

Mad Doc Grotsnik
05-07-2008, 14:06
Me! The little sods won't just touch my models, which is bad enough, but they are liable to spill my pint which clearly is not on!

Finnigan2004
05-07-2008, 15:13
I do not think that it would be a good idea to allow other game systems to be played in GW because one of the primary reasons for the shops is to maintain a visible presence for their products. That said, I have heard of some not allowing specialist games, which is simply ridiculous.

Templar Ben
05-07-2008, 15:57
I've just noticed that allot of posts keep saying things about GW stocking competing products in there store being a bad idea..............which I find strange since I never mentioned GW stocking other companies products

I think some people have spoken to that because GW used to do that very thing.

If GW didn't stock the games then you would have GW games players watching people playing WarMachine and more than likely quite a few wanting to pick up a $50 box so they can play. That is a sale to a GW competitor. As we keep saying, GW's ability to keep other games out of stores (and the stores being the only place where many can play) is how they maintain their position.

EightBall
05-07-2008, 17:54
The whole reason GW has games in their stores is so that they can promote the product. People play games, or see them played and before they go home they buy a box or blister. I would say GW's only interest is to play games in which the models are available from the store.

If folks want to play other games they can join a club.

I do recall that my local GW has had a couple Dark Heresy nights...the redshirts are more gamers than they are redshirts, i've seen a few D&D books in the store, but then again, D&D isn't really a competitor. I would be more concerned if I saw people carrying around Flames of War or Privateer Press games.

5Pointer
05-07-2008, 23:11
I wished my local GW stocked Dark Heresy and WHFRPG - wouldn't compete with the tabletop wargames, requires relatively little shelf space and would make it easier for people to get hold of it.

Plus Dark Heresy is just that damn cool.

xinsanityx
06-07-2008, 10:19
As a gamer I would love it if GW let you play other systems in their stores. I would most certainly actually go to a GW store if this were the case. I voted for yes because i was thinking as a gamer when i answered the question.

From a business point of view its a very very bad idea. The whole burger king/KFC example is perfect. There's just no reason to give your competitors what amounts to free advertisement in your store.

EightBall
07-07-2008, 20:01
Now a Taco-Bell/KFC/Pizza-Hut (we have one a few towns over) is fine because they are all under the umbrella of the former Tricon Restaurant Corporation.

GW retail stores are for GW business. Clubs and Indie Stores are for gamers.

Does anybody know if Wizards of the Coast stores (if there are any left) let people play GW games inside?

Don't get me wrong the specific GW retail stores are proving to be a weaker, dareisay "bad" business model, but it is what it is.

GAWD
08-07-2008, 14:30
I voted no.

I think GW should stop trying to write rules altogether, which they've proven incapable of doing very well. The "games" aspect of GW should be left to others.

GW should leave the thinking to those more suited to it and just concentrate on what they do best ... look pretty (models & fluff).

Brother Lysander
08-07-2008, 15:45
It's all nostalgia of course, but I do recall being fascinated by the plethora of games available in a GW store when I first started getting into wargaming. There are obviously fewer games offered by 'Games' Workshop these days, and if I walk into a GW store and decide I'm only really interested in a science fiction game, that leaves 40K as the sole option. However, I recall being younger and seeing several games being played in a GW store, and it was that that got me interested in, and ultimately buying and playing Necromunda. Space Hulk and Blood Bowl were also on my 'to get' list at the time.

There are obviously games being offered if you look to Specialist/FW Games, but I think that they are only on par at best with the assorted games offered by competitors, at least in terms of the commitment you have to make to get into them. I'd play Necromunda and Space Hulk instantly if given the chance, but I'd also just as quickly play a few non-GW games too. It is perhaps evident that the games you play is always going to be partially dictated by the players you can find, a strength GW could possibly exploit as a GW store offers a ready place to find players. It is probably coincidence that in the last few years I've looked elsewhere for games, but I know when I was younger I'd never even looked beyond GW games, simply because they already offered enough variety to hold my interest. GW stores could perhaps act more as a gaming hub like they used to, offering multiple games of it's own brand, but times have changed.

BL