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fishound7
04-07-2008, 14:11
Why is O&G magic so broken?? All i hear is that thier magic is trash. Oh also how many power dice would be needed for a say magic heavy armylist. Also what would be the ideal amount of dispel dice to be used in a army? in particular in a dwarf armylist to combat a magic heavy list. Is a runesmith good enough with a dispell rune or two? providing 5 dispell dice. I'm familiar with the 6th ed rules but I haven't played whfb in a LONG time so i'm a bit uncertain.

So.. does this not cut it for a magic heavy O&G list?

Orc great shaman lvl 4 with idol of mork
NG shamie lvl 2 full magic mushrooms
goblin sham lvl 2 sneaky stealin
goblin sham lvl 2 nibbla's itty ring

So I might be wrong but this is 12 power dice and when your boyz are in combat and everythin is goin to plan lol If you run 3 units of orc boyz in a mixed list and they are all in combat then thats a extra 4 dice so thats 16 total right? is that too weak? I know those are ideal situations.

is OG's magic crappy because of the miscast table?

I personally wouldn't run this list but I just want to know if would be effective.

Gobbo Lord
04-07-2008, 14:19
An example in point. The first spell of the little waaagh is a 5+ to cast, it does d6 strength 2 hits with no armour saves allowed. Compare this to similar spells in other lores. Other spells with this no armour save strength 2 ability have at least 2d6 hits, some even three, yet are all the same to cost. So the spell is underpowered.

Also the miscast table, although no result ends the magic phase as in the normal miscast table, there is a higher chance of your shamans dying.

And theres the small fact that if your shamans in a unit to protect him (a must) 1 out of six turns you wont be able to use him.

Heretic Burner
04-07-2008, 22:12
There is nothing spectacularly positive for O&G magic. No method of gaining untold power dice like daemons, HE, or VC. No flexibility like LM. Nothing really that stands out in any particular way.

Problem is, for all its blandness it has by far the biggest detriments in the game.

Gobbo Lord touched on some of the basic points. The goblin lore is all but useless, particularly for shamans because of its wretched casting values. The miscast table is absolutely brutal, quite frankly I still don't know why they have such a severe table for no appreciable reason. The magic items in support aren't anything that will cause much envy in your opponent.

However, even if they had the very best in the game in all the above points it wouldn't matter. The mechanics are flat out broken. Every shaman taken grants your opponent what is effectively free dispel scrolls for every animosity roll of 1. This absolutely shatters any chance of an effective magic phase. Yes there are ways around the problem, however they tend to either mean spending an easy 100+ points to stick them in a very substandard unit such as snotlings or granting them virtually no protection whatsoever by having them roving in a chariot or trudging on foot. Clearly none of these options are particularly a good thing.

So to answer the question, how many power dice should you end up with? 3. 2 base and 1 for your scroll caddy. That (along with the Spirit Totem) will prove to be sufficient for the majority of games against opposing magic phases. It isn't perfect, but O&G are by far the weakest army in the game at the moment so you will just have to do the best with what you're dealt.

Shimmergloom
05-07-2008, 01:05
Some points.

For all your characters I think you have pretty bad choices in magic items.

Idol of Mork is pretty awful because unlike the natural orc ability to add or lose dice, this one has a 24" range limit. So you are paying like 50pts for an item that will often get you nothing and at best might generate 1 or 2 dice per magic phase. In addition the great shaman is going to be your general in this situation, so you want him to have some sort of protection. Like put him on a boar with boss 'at or have him on foot with amulet of protectyness.

My great shaman set up, if I were to take one in a regular game, would be great shaman, lvl 4, riding boar, boss 'at, staff of badumn and dispel scroll.

For the rest, I would think 3 lvl 2 goblins are overkill. Like has been said too many goblin spells are high casting value, so you aren't going to get the most out of all 3.

For 3 more if I was going all magic, I would choose.

Orc shaman lvl 2, nibbla's ring, scroll.
goblin shaman lvl 2, chariot, scroll(use that scroll first.)
night goblin shaman, lvl 2, 2 mushrooms and staff of sorcery.

With this setup you have 12 power dice basic, plus one bound item. 7 dispel dice. +1 to cast, +1 to dispel and 3 scrolls. +2 mushrooms that add +1 power dice.

This is what I would do, but is still sooooo risky a setup. Taking 4 shamans means you are really in dire straits with animosity. With 2 or 3 shamans, you can always put a black orc big boss into a unit of orcs with your great shaman inside and not have to worry about him losing a round of magic to animosity.

Your other goblin is in a chariot, so he's ok. Which would leave a night goblin who you hide somewhere on foot with the staff of sorcery so that you always get the +1 to dispel(which would also just mean drop the lvl 2 and drop the 2 mushrooms).

semersonp
05-07-2008, 04:18
much like the rest of the o+g book, greenskin magic is oddly... sagacious...

being possessed of truly terrifying spells - foot/hand of the little, 'butt, waaagh! of the big (warmachine crew abandon their machines, oh my goodness i love o+g :))... absolutely destructive miscasts... under priced gamebreakers and over priced pointlessness... it is parity defined...

broken? nope.

potent in small doses? boy howdy.

easy to overestimate? yep.

the list of characters you put forth would not be effective... you lose leadership, animosity control, bsb, etc... all things that are key to o+g victory... but also...

you'd end the game with 2/4 of your mages sans heads or stupid/frenzied... and where would the rest of your greenskins be then...

2 hero mages for o+g is just fine... fine like wine in fact... one gob, one orc... its a powerful jab/roundhouse combo...

plus the potential for destruction will keep your opponent off balance... just like the rest of your army... one segment will perform stellar, another will be o.k. and a final will fail utterly... you just gotta make sure you're in position to compensate for which leg of the o+g tripod falls in a particular battle...

night gobbo shamans are just plain fun... consume a 'shroom for the green tide! :)

anyway - with orc and gobbos don't go magic heavy, don't go fast cav heavy, don't go gobbo heavy, don't go orc heavy... you've got one of the most diverse lists in the game... use it! bamboozle your foe with big + little bits... this includes your magical choices...

6/4 is a good setup with a dispel scroll thrown in there for good measure... at least, such has never failed me in all my games this edition...

Arguleon-veq
05-07-2008, 10:36
10 Power Dice + 1 Bound is enough magic defense to have a decent effect on the game against most armies, even ones with decent dispell ability like HE and VC.

You will want a fight general, a Black Orc Bigboss fits the bill.

I prefer the Little Waagh lore and so use a Night Gob great Shaman. Then a Night Gob Shaman to back him up and an Orc Shaman for some easy to cast destructive spells.

I think if you really want to compete against other magical armies though, max out on dispell, shut their phase down COMPLETELY. I have the Staff of Stealin and Sorcery for +1 Dispell and + 1 TO Dispell. Then I have the Spirit Totem for another 3 Dispell. So I have 10 Dispell with -1 Enemy Power Dice and +1 to Dispell.

I take the Itty Ring for a little extra magic offense and the Waagh Paint for my Orc as he often end up in combat.

With regards to your magic defense for other armies question, I find you need at least 5 DICE. As Scrolls etc really dont cut it against VC. I think the best is 6 + a Scroll or something that take saway an enemy power dice. Still the more the better, but that is usually enough.