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Gloom
04-07-2008, 16:15
Its offical, I need to rebuy my Eldar Army to make them viable, there just isnt a way of doing it with what I have.

HQ
No problem here, I've never locked myself into a single HQ configuration. If anything feilding Farseers is more attractive due to casting from inside transports.

Elites
No problems with the units themselves but I have far less points to spend on them now that I am being forced to buy more mounted Dire Avenger Squads, its really hurting my anti-vehicle capabilites, I need my two squads of Fire Dragons.

Troops
All but one of my troops are full sized Pathfinder squads and sure they are still great at shooting but the only relyable way to get them into an objective in using infiltrate but they arn't tough enough to hold them against assault heavy armies (my only opponents).

I need to buy more squads like my Dire Avengers (could be months before I have the spare $224 it will cost) and it will take 504pts away from the rest of my list.

Fast Attack
Viper Squadrons (two of two) are alot more fragile now that they have no defence if they plan on shooting that turn and I can no longer run them with two shuriken cannons each if they plan on moving much (gasp?! You mean what they are designed for?!). Now I honestly dont see a point in taking them given I have to spend 504pts more on troops.

I really only ever used Swooping Hawks to drop behind enemy lines to take out long range support units and take objectives last minute. Now I can't use them more 50% of the reasons I take them so I dont see them being used alot since the cost a much as one of those mounted Dire Avenger squads.

Heavy Support
My regular opponents have universally refused to play ageinst me if I feild my vibro cannons (all hoard army players who cant take each battery hitting 3+ units while shooting without LOS, they are all sore losers) so that leaves me only with my Falcons. They arn't cheap and buying more mounted Dire Avengers means I wont be able to afford more than one of them in games under 1500pts (most of the games my regular opponents play).

The End Result
Yeah, basicly due the changes to the rules combined with my nearly exclusively Ork and IG opponent base (with some Assaultly Marines and 'Nids) I'm being shoehorned into taking 756pts of mounted Dire Avenger squads just to be able to take objectives as not once were my 30 Pathfinders able to hold one until the end of the game and my Viper Squadrons and Swooping Hawks have been made a horrible choice for what I bought them for give their points costs.

juliusb
04-07-2008, 16:22
If they won't let you take vibro cannons tell them they can't take assault troops ;) If they refuse, put the vibro cannons back in the list and call them 'cheesy'. I think they'll get the message and stop being babies about it.

E-616
04-07-2008, 16:30
Eldar seem to be coming out alright in terms of scoring units, it wont be cheap, but a 10 man squad of Wraith guard w/ Warlock can be very hard to shift and Jetbikes may become very common for last turn objective taking.

I just hope they don't put off the release of the new jetbike models to long!

Miggidy Mack
04-07-2008, 16:36
You will probably find this thread helpful: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149451

We have played over 40 games with the new 5th edition eldar, and we break down everything we found. To be honest, pathfinders are awesome, especially if you support them with a few jetbikes or some wraith guard in front of them.

If your opponents are refusing to play you because they all run horde armies and you use the eldar equivalent of a heavy bolter... well... frankly they need to grow up and you probably need to find opponents who understand that every tactic has a counter tactic. They CAN avoid being hit by vibro-cannon with multiple squads... just cup at you spread out horizontally!

Ragewind
04-07-2008, 16:43
Your opponents sound like A-holes and no one is going to keep me from fielding something I spent money on.

This is what I use and all the 5th games I have played have worked perfectly for me.

HQ
Bahharoth
Farseer on Jetbike with Doom and Fortune w/ Spear and Runes

Elites
Warithguard x5 w/ Warlock with Spear (With Wave serpent and Star Engines)
Fully upgraded 10 man Harlie squad

Troops
Jetbikes x4 w/ Cannons
Jetbikes x4 w/ Cannons

Fast Attack
Hawks x10 w/ Exarch and Sunrifle
Vyper x1 w/ whatever weapon I feel like typically Scatter lasers
Vyper x1 w/ Whatever Weapon I feel like typically scatter lasers

Heavy Support
Fire Prism x3 w/ Holo-fields on 2


This comes out to around 1850 and I change it up slightly each games to stay within points. I run Bahharoth and the hawks together aided by the Farseer and Fortune the hawks every turn. Then I doom what I shoot at and all of a sudden those Lasblasters become a bit better.
Now I shoot my Serpent 36 inches down the board and blow up a tank (or more if I am lucky) dropping out the Guard when it dies and blowing up some more stuff.

Hopefully this will give you some ideas, but personally I have never been a fan of Dire Avengers.

Gloom
04-07-2008, 18:14
If your opponents are refusing to play you because they all run horde armies and you use the eldar equivalent of a heavy bolter... well... frankly they need to grow up and you probably need to find opponents who understand that every tactic has a counter tactic.

They are the only opponent options I have... The group as a whole hates everything non-imperial or ork (or that doesnt function under the same conventional/straight forward rules), for the longest time I was the only person to not play an Imperial or Ork army until one started a nid army and a new nid player joined.

That and the guy who's house we need to play at is a total control freak... If I didn't already spend money on the models I wouldnt be still playing. The reason I'm so upset over 5th Edition changing my army is I'm not willing to spend more money to change it just to play with these guys... So I'm most likely just going to quit playing and try to sell my stuff.

szlachcic
04-07-2008, 18:24
They are the only opponent options I have... The group as a whole hates everything non-imperial or ork (or that doesnt function under the same conventional/straight forward rules), for the longest time I was the only person to not play an Imperial or Ork army until one started a nid army and a new nid player joined.

That and the guy who's house we need to play at is a total control freak... If I didn't already spend money on the models I wouldnt be still playing. The reason I'm so upset over 5th Edition changing my army is I'm not willing to spend more money to change it just to play with these guys... So I'm most likely just going to quit playing and try to sell my stuff.

I really don't blame you if that is your only gaming group. Just curious, how old are the people in your gaming group? They sound like a bunch of children to be honest.

If I was you I would look for a different gaming group that actually tries to have fun while they play.

IJW
04-07-2008, 18:53
f I was you I would look for a different gaming group that actually tries to have fun while they play.
Quoted for truth. What size population centres do you live near, and what country?

Gloom
04-07-2008, 19:21
I really don't blame you if that is your only gaming group. Just curious, how old are the people in your gaming group? They sound like a bunch of children to be honest.

The largest demographic in the group is 18-26yo potheads who almost always play stoned.


Quoted for truth. What size population centres do you live near, and what country?

I actually live in an area with alot of differnt groups that play warhammer (Toronto, Canada) but this is still the best group I've been with, sure these guys act like babies sometimes but with one or two execption (out of 11 members) they are groomed, not respulsively ugly and on unwarhammer related matters are decent enough to hang out with. Every other club I've seen in my area are stocked with total social rejects (no social skills, no grooming, unattractive, no non-nerd intrests or activities) who even if they are more fun to play against I wouldn't be able to stand being near them (I'm an extremely vain queer who backed out of running one of the club tables at Games Day Toronto over them not having a staff shirt small enough for me), thats why I dont play at any of the 3 local GWs.

IJW
04-07-2008, 19:30
Tricky....

Dach
04-07-2008, 19:46
They don't want you to use a unit in your codex!!

HAAHAHAH man worst case of kid crying attitude ever!!

I think I would actually try to give groom and social skill class to the other gamer around then trying to play with stupid childish person like that.

:skull:

szlachcic
04-07-2008, 19:53
So are these "ungroomed nerd" types not fun to play against because of how they act or because you would rather not be associated with them. If it is the latter than I really don't feel bad for you since the hobby will draw people from all walks of life. It is not like anyone is forcing you to hang out with them after the game. If they are nice people and play a good game of warhammer then what is the problem.

As for you current group, I still say they sound like a bunch of babies. I wouldn't be able to put of with a bunch of stoned whiners. I played one of my friends when he was stoned, and while he isn't a whiner the game was extremely easy for me.

If you are comfortable with looking for an older and/or more mature group I would recommend it. The quality of a gaming group can make or break the game for some people and every time I see a thread like this I am so thankful that my group doesn't have these problems.


They don't want you to use a unit in your codex!!

HAAHAHAH man worst case of kid crying attitude ever!!

I think I would actually try to give groom and social skill class to the other gamer around then trying to play with stupid childish person like that.

:skull:

Agreed. If someone ever tried to tell me I couldn't use a certain unit in my army's list then I would probably never play against that person again. Especially when said unit is something that isn't even considered OP. They all seem to play horde armies, losing a few models here and there should not even phase them.

USER1
04-07-2008, 20:11
Hilarious thread.

The cheapest way for you to get troops good at objective grabbing would be to buy minimum size jetbike squads.

1/3 missions dont have objectives and another 1/3 have one in your DZ which pathfinders can sit on.

A small pathfinder squad can jump in a falcon come the end of the game to grab an objective. This is not ideal but it won me a game.

Being stoned will be making your opponents less motivated to update their tactics to new challenges, its easier just to say its not allowed. That said i manage fine and i play eldar.

Freakish social rejects are common in tabletop gaming, bless em.

Royal Tiger
04-07-2008, 20:24
The largest demographic in the group is 18-26yo potheads who almost always play stoned.
lets see, 18 to 26, so thats a mental age of 9 to 8 respectively, factor in the pot means 4 to 3 respectively........my goodness, personally I'd tell em to stop whining, lay off the drugs, and grow a frickin back bone.

LostTemplar
04-07-2008, 20:31
So? Play with the others, and interact with these. if they ask, state "Well, I needed more enemies and I wanted to use vibrocannons. They really aren't that great, ya know?"

Fideru
04-07-2008, 20:38
Well, I find it a bit shallow that you don't want to play with the other groups due to outward appearences. But, that's all up to you.

And with not allowed to vibro-cannons, just say they cannot play something in their codex, say, guardsmen, space marines, and orks!

Hollopoint
04-07-2008, 20:49
You do know that you don't have to sleep with the people that you game with right? What does it matter how they look? It sounds to me that you have alot of growing up to do and some serious confidence issues.

Seek help.

USER1
04-07-2008, 20:59
lets see, 18 to 26, so thats a mental age of 9 to 8 respectively, factor in the pot means 4 to 3 respectively........my goodness, personally I'd tell em to stop whining, lay off the drugs, and grow a frickin back bone.

This is also the main demographic for students and i think the mental age thing is a bit off. I fit into this and am from wolverhampton so you could experience it first hand. (Joke- To much hate)

Gloom
04-07-2008, 21:02
What does it matter how they look? It sounds to me that you have alot of growing up to do and some serious confidence issues.

It doesnt matter to me as much as it matters to my other freinds and partner, seeing as I am finacially dependant on my partner I behave how he wants me to, if he doesnt wanting seen with people like that then thats what I do.

Royal Tiger
04-07-2008, 21:27
This is also the main demographic for students and i think the mental age thing is a bit off. I fit into this and am from wolverhampton so you could experience it first hand. (Joke- To much hate)
ahh yes very true, it is a little bit off, if your from wolverhampton I have to reduce it a further 2 points
:p:D;)

Lord Cook
05-07-2008, 00:39
It doesnt matter to me as much as it matters to my other freinds and partner, seeing as I am finacially dependant on my partner I behave how he wants me to, if he doesnt wanting seen with people like that then thats what I do.

So because your boyfriend says he doesn't want you to socialise with someone, you don't? I'm sensing the problem here and it isn't even warhammer related...

USER1
05-07-2008, 01:17
This just gets funnier.
Has Trisha been known to post on warseer?
She`ll definatly blame the drugs.

spiderhaiku
05-07-2008, 01:38
This just gets funnier.
Has Trisha been known to post on warseer?
She`ll definatly blame the drugs.

Hur hur hur, this will keep me chuckling for a while :D

For the OP, it sounds like you have already made your mind up dude...

Gloom
05-07-2008, 01:52
For the OP, it sounds like you have already made your mind up dude...

Duh,

I posted cause I wanted to bitch about it, not cause I expected anyone to solve the problem by using some kind of reality revision technique to change what GW did with the rules and to make my group better.

big squig
05-07-2008, 01:57
Any army, ANY ARMY, eldar or not, that takes nothing by stand and shoot troops are not going to work in 5th ed....not that they were very good in 4th edition either.

Gloom
05-07-2008, 02:10
Any army, ANY ARMY, eldar or not, that takes nothing by stand and shoot troops are not going to work in 5th ed....not that they were very good in 4th edition either.

I didnt stand and shoot, I mechanized and shot.

==Me==
05-07-2008, 02:11
I'm not even going to touch the issues present in this thread so I'll just focus on the OP's original question.

What sort of list are you running that is so unusable under 5th?

Dire Avengers work fine without Serpents, their weapons have decent range and they are assault so you can always move and shoot. With cover becoming more helpful they'll be very well protected and since their weapons don't negate MEQ saves they'll be just as effective.

Pathfinders can hold an objective in your deployment zone and will cause serious problems for most armies, especially with cover, Fortune and Doom.

Scorpions are great with outflanking, Harlies are still awesome (moreso with Doom). Fire Dragons are even better against tanks since AP1 gives you +1 for damage.

Hawks can contest objectives and put some hurt on infantry.

Vypers can move and fire all their weapons, just keep them obscured for a 4+ cover save.

Falcons are still good as transports, not so much gunships.

I fail to see the problem, just do a little rejigging and alter your tactics. Bitching isn't going to help anything.

As for your opponents, refuse to play them for using a certain obscure unit and see how they like such a pointless rule.

big squig
05-07-2008, 02:15
I didnt stand and shoot, I mechanized and shot.

You took mechanized pathfinders in 4th ed?

That's the whole point of this thread right? You bitching about your army not being competitive, but a troop base of rangers was always not competitive. Through out 4th edition I fought that army many times and they always got thrashed. It's no different in 5th. You needed dire avengers in 4th, and you will need them in 5th. This should be no surprise.

Gloom
05-07-2008, 02:41
You took mechanized pathfinders in 4th ed?

That's the whole point of this thread right? You bitching about your army not being competitive, but a troop base of rangers was always not competitive. Through out 4th edition I fought that army many times and they always got thrashed. It's no different in 5th. You needed dire avengers in 4th, and you will need them in 5th. This should be no surprise.

I didnt mechanize my pathfinders, they cant even take transports at full squad size like I said I took! The rest of my army was mechanized (2x Fire Dragons in a Falcon Each, Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent, Warlocks in a Falcon, sometimes Yuriel alone in a Falcon too) and 4 Vipers.

BrainFireBob
05-07-2008, 03:10
It's not 5th Edition that's forcing anything, it's your gaming group. Use your Vibro-cannons.

szlachcic
05-07-2008, 03:51
Wow, it does sound like your problems run a lot deeper than not being able to adept your tactics or find a mature gaming group.

It seems like quiting 40k would be a good move and while you are at it get a job that allows you to support yourself because your current situation sounds really bad.

Also, has anyone else noticed a surge of people posting about some complaint they have with an army or the new rules, and say they are going to quit the game yet don't really want any advice from anyone. Why waste your time, if you don't want any advice then why the hell should we care about your problems (unless of course it is an actual problem like losing your job, having a loved one died, etc.).

Miggidy Mack
05-07-2008, 05:38
Wow, it does sound like your problems run a lot deeper than not being able to adept your tactics or find a mature gaming group.

It seems like quiting 40k would be a good move and while you are at it get a job that allows you to support yourself because your current situation sounds really bad.

Also, has anyone else noticed a surge of people posting about some complaint they have with an army or the new rules, and say they are going to quit the game yet don't really want any advice from anyone. Why waste your time, if you don't want any advice then why the hell should we care about your problems (unless of course it is an actual problem like losing your job, having a love one died, etc.).

Yeah, I agree, you really need to make some changes.

Don't use the internet to vent. We won't get that over text. Forums are for discussion... hence the word FORUM. If you aren't willing to listen to advice this isn't the place for you to come.

You are in a very negative place right now, anything anyone tells you "isn't going to work". Of course, you are probably going to internally deny that. You are going to have a reason why you are trapped because you want to be the victim. How's that worked out so far?