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View Full Version : Should Daemons be able to assault after deep striking?



sjap98
05-07-2008, 00:09
... daemons in the CSM codex can,
I've been playing a lot of daemons vs daemons games lately(using 5th ed rules), and it was great fun.

But then, this week we played daemons vs Grey Knights,(as an introductory game to 40k for a friend- mind you we gave him 200 more points than us in a 1000pts game playing GK termies + allied Termies ) and we got slaughtered by the shooting.

And tonight, we played 2500 pts Daemons vs Eldar and it got ugly, the daemons after an initial successful shooting phase by the Horrors and Flamers, got really slaughtered by the shooting of the Eldar and the assaulting of the Harlies.

After the game my friend and I thought it would make sense for the Chaos daemons to assault after deep strike, this way they wouldn't be sitting ducks for one round.

And, after all, they're the "real" daemons, better than the lesser daemons, so they should have no problem moving from the warp to the material universe.

So, what are your thoughts on that.

Would it give them more "oomph", or way too much???

We're thinking of allowing it as a house rule.

Thanks,
Sjap.

Baneboss
05-07-2008, 00:26
And, after all, they're the "real" daemons, better than the lesser daemons, so they should have no problem moving from the warp to the material universe.

I hate such "logical" arguments... Theyre the "real" daemons than the lesser daemons so its harder for them to remain stable and enter the material universe. See my point?

Truth to be told daemons are one of the weakest armies out there. If I had to play that army I would propably invest my points in big Bloodcrushers unit, 1 or 2 Fiends of Slaanesh, cheapest Daemon Princes (wings are so overpriced), something shooty to take down tanks.

From experience I know that army needs cheapest but also toughest choices it can take to actually do something and survive that one turn of shooting.

druchii
05-07-2008, 00:27
... daemons in the CSM codex can,
I've been playing a lot of daemons vs daemons games lately, and it was great fun.
But then, this week we played daemons vs Grey Knights,(as an introductory game to 40k for a friend- mind you we gave him playing GK termies + allied termes 200 more points than us in a 1000pts game) and got slaughtered by the shooting.
And tonight we played 2500 pts Daemons vs Eldar and it got ugly, the daemons after an initial successful shooting phase by the Horrors and Flamers, got really slaughtered by the shooting of the Eldar and the assaulting of the Harlies.

after the game my friend and I thought it would make sense for the Chaos daemons to assault after deep strike, this way they wouldn't be sitting ducks for one round.

And, after all, they're the "real" daemons, better than the lesser daemons, so they should have no problem moving from the warp to the material universe.

So, what are your thoughts on that.
Would it gave them more "oomph", or too much???

We're thinking of allowing it as a house rule

I think it's a bad idea. I mean, sure you can house rule whatever you like, but what happens when I deepstrike my demons 2" away from your line (and they won't scatter because of my icons) and assault your entire army before you can do anything?

Not very fair, really.

The entire demon army is balanced around the idea that they are going to be spending a turn vulnerable before they really become threatening in the assault phase, and I think removing this limitation will make the army extremely unbalanced.

d
ps. Oh, yeah, and I play demons :D

sjap98
05-07-2008, 00:33
...but what happens when I deepstrike my demons 2" away from your line (and they won't scatter because of my icons) and assault your entire army before you can do anything?


Well the units with icons got whittled down real quick by the shooting and assaulting,
there wasn't much left of the first wave of daemons in turn 2 already! (harlequins are nasty!).

Hicks
05-07-2008, 00:37
I voted a BIG no. Daemons are hard enough in combat to be able to beat most troops even after they have suffered many casualties. If they were capable of charging right after DSing, they would just overkill everything they would come in contact with.

weissengel86
05-07-2008, 00:46
this is as bad as the idea of removing phase out for necrons without any downsides. You cant just pump up units without adding balance simply because you think thats how it should be. You could allow daemons to deepstrike and assault but you would have to make daemons cost more or have some other downside to balance it out. According to fluff space marines should be toughness 6 with 2 or 3 wounds and the bolter should be strength 6 assault 3 or 4 while still costing close to the same points but you cant do that without severly unbalancing the game and ruining the game for opponents. People always seem to suggest buffs but never any balance thank god GW doesnt listen to too many players.

==Me==
05-07-2008, 01:50
No way.

Assaulting after Deep Striking would allow Daemons to wipe out entire armies without any opposition. Seekers and Fiends have an assault range of 13"-18", they could hit anything on the board with virtually no risk posed from scatter. After that, game's over.

I'd prefer if games didn't come down to pure luck, if Daemons could assault after DS-ing, it would essentially be a game of "3+ I win". That doesn't sound like much fun, no matter how fluffy it is.

Daemons are balanced with the DS rules as-is, which is why they are so cheap for their statlines. They would have to be almost double points or have their stats dropped in order to balance that.

Wraithbored
05-07-2008, 01:58
I'm sorry but this entire thread reeks of I want an autowin button.

E-616
05-07-2008, 01:58
I think they're a bit weaker in the current edition of 40k but come 5th (afaik) you'll be able to make a run move to spread them out and get them to cover.

The Salmon Thief
05-07-2008, 02:14
No. It would be fun for us Daemons players (especially Khorne), but it would take all strategy out of everything... the point of not being able to assault right away is (obviously) so that you can't deepstrike 2" from enemy lines and charge the entire army right away... that's just not very fair.

Aeneas
05-07-2008, 02:29
I just played my first game with my daemons (khorne and tzeentch) vs grey knights. If i'd been able to charge after deep striking the game would have ended after two turns at the most. As it was, it ended after four turns.

With how cheap daemons are (compared to grey knights) its no big deal for an incinerator to wipe out a unit of bloodletters before they charge because there's a unit of flamers about to move up and template them to death

Chem-Dog
05-07-2008, 03:01
I can confidently say, as a part time Daemon, NO.

The Rule, as is, prevents the all out assault (in theory, it actually just delays it for a turn ;)) for a very good reason, NOBODY would find them fun to use or fight if they were so quickly into combat.

max the dog
05-07-2008, 03:05
I can't think of too many other units that can assault the round they deep strike. The nid Lictor (80 points) can and the Callidus Assassin (120 points) can but that's about it. Those 2 models are very expensive in points and are severely limited in numbers and for very good reason. It's simply too powerful of an ability. Now you're asking for an entire army of relatively cheap and horribly powerful close combat troops to assault the round they deep strike.

ctsteel
05-07-2008, 03:45
the Callidus doesn't technically deep strike - her special rule just allows her to be placed anywhere on the board and can move/shoot/assault as if she was always there. So really only the Lictor. And that has to DS into an area terrain piece so is restricted in ability also.


The 5th ed changes to DS will allow the daemons to still pick and choose their engagements since they can run after DSing, so they will not be sitting ducks so much. I know that fleet models can still assault after running (in 5th) but I wasn't sure if they could also assault after DSing, it sounds like they can't and that seems fair to me, as with the relaxed penalty on DS scatter people will likely be using it a lot more (eg for a very expensive Grey Knight Master and Terminator retinue, you are suddenly a lot less likely to lose 500 odd points in a single bad roll).

blackroyal
05-07-2008, 05:48
and got slaughtered by the shooting.
Clearly you don't play a Nurgle heavy Icon army. Sometimes known as "go ahead, shoot me, see if I or my 13 friends care".

If this codex could assault after deep strike, it would be completely broken.

Dalamyr the Fleetmaster
05-07-2008, 06:32
I don't think the entire army should assault on the turn it deepstrikes your opponent would be dead after two turns hardly fun or fair. The deamons are balanced if you chose to go for a mixed god list as was intended.
I mean imagine how hard GD's and soulgrinders would be!

sjap98
05-07-2008, 06:59
Clearly you don't play a Nurgle heavy Icon army. Sometimes known as "go ahead, shoot me, see if I or my 13 friends care".


Well, in fact, I usually do, it's true that Nurgle has incredible staying power, but the rest of the Daemons...die like flies (without FNP)...

Deadmanwade
05-07-2008, 07:04
I've played two games against Daemons so far. I tried a stealer heavy nid army and an IG shooty army. I lost both games by a small margin, but I would hate to see what would have happened if I had to giveup a turn of shooting and/or assaulting and just had to sit there and take it. Point for point, I think daemonettes are more deadly than genestealers. They're not as strong, but they're just as fast, have an invulnerable save and have an extra attack. Oh and they rend too. If you think that its fair to play with the deepstrike and assault rule, switch armies with your opponents for the first 10 games and see if you think its balanced.

Grimtuff
05-07-2008, 08:46
Well, in fact, I usually do, it's true that Nurgle has incredible staying power, but the rest of the Daemons...die like flies (without FNP)...

Well, I don't know what Daemons you've been using but only the Slaanesh units seem to have that problem round here....

As for the original question. I'll go for a big, loud, in your face NO!

Bookwrak
05-07-2008, 09:19
No. If there actually is a problem with the army, you don't fix it by giving them an 'I win!' button.

Royal Tiger
05-07-2008, 10:43
how about a nice resounding NO

Dreachon
05-07-2008, 10:52
GW had a damn good reason for not allowing the deamons to assault after deepstriking.

RazielZian
05-07-2008, 13:10
I've seen a match played between a demon host and a SM gunline, 3 tuens and the game was over in favour to the demons... Their auras give them the I10 (frag grenades) and on the charge they are more than a little nasty, throw in the fact that greater demons are hq but demon princes are heavy support, meaning you can get 5 of them in a 1500 pts army and due to their price, still throw out a reasonable screen of lesser demons.

If you want to make it so they can charge as soon as they arrive, then the turn they show up is game over.

Nobody can stand toe to toe with 2 greater demons and 3 demon princes plus their minions without having a chance to whittle them down, as it is in 5th ed demons will come into their own with the new difficult terrain deep strike tests.

Doomseer
05-07-2008, 13:21
HELL NOOOOOO!! I have been playing Daemons the past few weeks and Running after DS is more than enough of an advantage when used intelligently. Daemons require a lot of thought about army composition and deployment and are not for everyone.

Giving them an 'auto-win' ability is not the answer for lazy/poor generalship!

scopedog91
05-07-2008, 14:02
Doomseer gets 10 points for that one...
Why not take everyone's fav army and give them all one more advantage...
House rules may be fine, but don't blame bad luck or poor planning on the rules.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
05-07-2008, 14:19
Well the units with icons got whittled down real quick by the shooting and assaulting,
there wasn't much left of the first wave of daemons in turn 2 already! (harlequins are nasty!).

Hate to say it, but sounds like you got outplayed!

Deepstrike into cover. Deepstrike onto objectives.

Remember that 5th Edition is moving away from pointless pitched battles into proper missions like take and hold!

Sami
05-07-2008, 14:25
With 5th edition preventing you from consolidating into an unengaged unit, I don't see much of an issue with daemons being allowed to assault from deep striking. The assault will be absolutely brutal, but the chances are you will either annihilate or break the unit that you assaulted, leaving your daemons out in the open with no cover and only a 5+ invul save during your opponent's shooting phase.

Rather than giving it to all deep striking units, only those who don't scatter (either through dice rolls or Icons) should be able to do it. That makes it a bit fluffier too - they landed where expected so they can charge straight in, as opposed to having to spend a moment getting their bearings.

My 2 skulls anyway


edit: failing that, demand more cover on your gaming area

Earthbeard
05-07-2008, 14:31
The army is balanced around not being able to assault after a DS, alter that and you have a terribly tough army that can strike with practical impunity.

Captin Korea!
05-07-2008, 15:16
How about no? If we can assault after DS, why would anyone not want to play squads of 20 daemonettes? 80 hits on a charge with rending? This would make their dex broken.

Grand Master Raziel
05-07-2008, 15:29
With 5th edition preventing you from consolidating into an unengaged unit, I don't see much of an issue with daemons being allowed to assault from deep striking. The assault will be absolutely brutal, but the chances are you will either annihilate or break the unit that you assaulted, leaving your daemons out in the open with no cover and only a 5+ invul save during your opponent's shooting phase.

I don't think you've fully considered the ramifications of what you're proposing. I think you're thinking of the prospect as one or two units at a time trickling in according to the normal rules for Reserves. In the case of Chaos Daemons, half the army arrives on turn 1. From my experience against the army, the models are far nastier in close combat than their points cost allow for, indicating that they're balanced with losing a lot of them to shooting in mind. If that first wave of Daemons could DS and assault in the first turn, then the likely result is that whatever they hit would get wiped out, and that would leave the opponent in a hole that even a GT winner would be hard-pressed to climb out of. Plus, let's not forget that the other half of the Daemon army is coming out of Reserves, and would be able to assault after DSing, too. No, the idea just reeks of bad.


Rather than giving it to all deep striking units, only those who don't scatter (either through dice rolls or Icons) should be able to do it. That makes it a bit fluffier too - they landed where expected so they can charge straight in, as opposed to having to spend a moment getting their bearings.

It's still a bad idea, because a good round of luck with a relatively small amount of rolls could create the kind of horrendously unbalanced situation that simply being able to freely assault after DSing would allow.

So, in case it was unclear, I voted "No" as well. I've played against the army a couple of times, and found that it works fine as is. I don't see how anyone can propose that whole armies be allowed to assault after DSing consider it even vaguely balanced. Certain armies might have a chance of fighting off the waves of incoming daemons, but what about IG and Tau? They would just be boned, pure and simple.

Tymell
05-07-2008, 15:33
I was initially going to vote outright no, but I've gone for "Yes, if they have fleet". This is more of a general feeling I have though, rather than something specifically about daemons.

In general, no, I think it's a bad idea. In an army with just one or two units deep striking, then it might not make that much difference. But with a pure daemon army that will make an ENORMOUS difference to the game. Them getting shot at acts to counter-balance their close-combat skills.

While no one can stop you using it as a house rule of course, I personally wouldn't agree to it.

As for the Chaos Space Marine army argument, well:

CSM armies (more than likely) will have far far fewer such units, and so it isn't so critical. Also, the CSM daemon units aren't so powerful most of the time. Again, it makes less difference. They fill more of a "tying the enemy up" role, so it fits.


And, after all, they're the "real" daemons, better than the lesser daemons, so they should have no problem moving from the warp to the material universe.

A point of clarification: The CSM daemons aren't different (in background/fluff terms) to the daemons in the Daemon Codex. All the daemons in the daemon codex -are- lesser ones and greater ones. The statlines in the codex don't represent anything different, they're generic profiles, not profiles of "generic daemons". However, I still feel it would make too much of a difference given the differing army compositions.

Lord Damocles
05-07-2008, 19:24
No. No. No. No.

When Marines all have rending bolters, Eldar all have 3+ saves, and Guard are T5, then you can break the Deamon army. Not before.

NO!

BorisGT
05-07-2008, 21:08
Why not just let your opponent set up his army and then on a roll of a 4+ you win? That sound good?

That way you won't have to break any figures out and everyone goes home happy (hurrrg).

weissengel86
05-07-2008, 22:52
i cant believe people actually voted yes on this poll. I can see a miniscule amount of validity in the "yes, but..." options but saying they can assault after deepstrike is in all scenarios a terribly unbalanced idea. I would support this idea IF and ONLY IF the daemons costed at least several more points or suffered some sort of (harsh) penalty. Just because you can think of a fluffy reason to do this doesnt mean you get an "I win" button.

Tymell
06-07-2008, 09:53
Can people at least try keeping their responses remotely civil please?

I don't think it's a good idea either, but sjap98 asked about it in a perfectly restrained, honest manner, not "OMG my demons suxx, I want all deeps trike!!!!!!!!".

Such an original post would not have done him credit to say the least. And likewise, some replies I'm seeing here are having much the same effect on their authors. That's not everyone who's criticising it, just those who are coming off as unnecessarily rude.

40kdhs
06-07-2008, 19:11
GKs are DS specialists and we are not allowed to assault after DStriking. Your daemons should not :)

sjap98
06-07-2008, 19:36
Can people at least try keeping their responses remotely civil please?

I don't think it's a good idea either, but sjap98 asked about it in a perfectly restrained, honest manner, not "OMG my demons suxx, I want all deeps trike!!!!!!!!".

Such an original post would not have done him credit to say the least. And likewise, some replies I'm seeing here are having much the same effect on their authors. That's not everyone who's criticising it, just those who are coming off as unnecessarily rude.

Tymell, thanks a lot.
it's exactly how you put it.

It's that me and my friend we just play a lot of armies ( playing 40k since 1994), and since the Ork codex we've played a lot of Ork vs Ork games, and had plenty of fun.

And since the Daemon codex we've played a lot of Daemons vs Daemons games which all were also fantastic.( and most of those games using more and more 5th ed rules)

It just struck me that when I played my Eldar (which had been gathering dust for more than 10 years!) vs his Daemons for a change, the daemons just got massacred by the amount fire and ensuing assault (high initiative) of the Eldar.

I just noticed it. It was only the second Daemon vs non-daemon army we had played and both times the daemons couldn't put up a fight.
Maybe it was just bad dice rolling, maybe bad tactics , maybe a combination of both, that's all.

I just posted this poll to check out the feeling out there, that's all.To check if experienced Daemon players had had the same experience (getting massacred a lot by shooting armies), either way losing or winning , who cares as long as we're having fun [remember: it's the most important rule!]

72% votes "No" ...but still 25% do not vote no, so...

have fun guys and gals it's what's it's about..

Sjap