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kiron
05-07-2008, 04:35
Alright so my friends and I found this cool list, which WORKS surprisingly well for 5th ed. We are now looking for a big flaw in this list, but can't beat it. Looking for a list that can beat it soundly

HQ: 1
1 cannoness-power weapon, pistol, litanies

Troops: 4
20 sisters w/vet-book,eviscerator
20 sisters w/vet-book, power weapon, melta
18 sisters w/vet-book, power weapon, 2x melta
10 sisters w/vet-book, 2x melta

6 faith points
1000 points
69 models
5 kill points

There are restrictions to beating it, must play all 3 scenarios and beat it soundly in all 3 scenarios. So no lists that are good for capture objectives but terrible in terms of kp and vica versa.

While using this list it may take casualties, but not a whole lot. It suffers around 30 models in casualties a game, with mission objectives, it have played games where it killed no one and suffered 40 casualties but still won due to mission objectives (capture a the hill, load 60+ sisters on there and wait for the game to end tongue.gif). Thanks to 5th ed. troops are much more useful, It have also played against mechs, sure, it take rediculous casualties against not 2 but 3 fire prisms! It tend to keep my units in close proximity for support, sure it suffer like 7 casualties a shot, but the list still end up getting my worth in kills for kill points enough to win. Troops only scoring is VERY nice. About sisters, better armor means it can take great casualties, 69 sisters in 3+ AS is equivalent to 100+orks due to no negation of armor from most weapons, the list has to take equivalent of 210 wounds from most weapons to actually die, very unlikely in 5-7 turns and most cc my sisters can hold their ground, except for the small unit, which it just sacrifice and then counter fire.

The army is more about delaying if it end up fighting mechs, start as far away as possible then wait about turn 2 to start moving to limit shooting and casualties. Most of the time it only lose about 5-10 models and then if increases to 20 by end of turn 3. Wow, 1 kill point worth or nothing if mission based objective, it still outnumber my opponents most of the time.

Most people underestimate sisters, the extra armor means 200% increase in survivabilty when compared to guards. How often do most armies expect to kill 50 or more MEQ models in 1000 points? Also in balanced lists, most lists have to balance between kill point missions (terrible for MEQ and MSU) and objective missions (good for MEQ and MSU).

Also games are played on 4x4 boards as well (c'mon it's 1000 points), it's not too disadvantaged much in movement.

It's about they other guy having insufficient time (6 turns max) to chew through your army

But we don't think any list is unbeatable, so any comments?

Mott
05-07-2008, 04:40
Id like to think any foot slogging CC army (orks come to mind BIG here) would give this army fits. Sure thats alot of bolters but orks are good at shooting now too, and get alot of obj seizing troops for 6pts each.

Dont know anyone with sisters, or even the sisters book, so I cant even proxy!

Like to try it against armies like ork swarms, chaos CC inf, nids ect.

Kalec
05-07-2008, 06:03
Any chaos army with even a single lash can tackle a squad at a time, crush it in cc, rinse and repeat. The best chaos units to do this with are raptors and troops, so chaos can still field a reasonable number of scoring units without sacrificing battlefield effectiveness. Lash can also move squads off of objectives and out of bolter and melta range. 5th ed combat resolution rules are going to hurt the sisters against elite cc squads that will cause far, far more casualties then the sisters will in return. Giving every squad an eviscerator would help this.

An armoured company would also give this list trouble, as battle cannons will splat quite a few sisters and against such large squads, scatter will mean far less. Of course, an AC or any tank-heavy Guard list would most likely be unable to capture any objective that the sisters get on to, as you have most likely discovered.

ehlijen
05-07-2008, 06:10
Just hope your meltas are good enough to kill any walkers or MCs headed towards you before they hit your line. Otherwise a DN can easily lock 25% of your army in place for the rest of the game.

Basilisk will also hurt a lot, or eat up your faith points so quickly your units won't be much use. Ordnance in general will hurt, but artillery the most.

I don't think you have the flexibility neccessary to win objective based missions. You only have four units. That means you can't really devote more than one unit to most objectives. One bad round of combat against something hard'n'fast (such as bikes) will see you delayed or otherwise stopped. You don't have the range to stop CC specialists from reaching you and you don't have the CC abilities to fight them off reliably. You also don't have the speed required to threaten range armies significantly.

Basically your battle plan is going to be: I hope I don't die too badly. Granted, with sisters it can work, and your army seems to be good at that, but battlefield control will be entirely in the hands of the opponent.

Dalamyr the Fleetmaster
05-07-2008, 06:14
OrK deff mob army those melta's can only take down so many and the the big mek with shokk attck gun can mop up the odd squad

Ziac45
05-07-2008, 06:17
Honestly that list doesn't even look all that powerful, the Cannoness is at strength three and any close combat army that makes it in should give them fits. I mean Genestealers beefed out would destroy them, A tank heavy army would be hard for them to handle, even with all the meltas, swarms armies would also get at them. 6 Faith points is good and the cannoness dying off can get them 3 more but it doesn't seem at all unbeatable.

starlight
05-07-2008, 06:27
The eternal *Why are you wasting Power Weapons on Str3 models?*:(

I'd rather see six evenly sized units, or five Troops and a unit of HB Retributors.

big squig
05-07-2008, 06:27
The problem is that it's just troops and nothing else. There's nothing supporting it. An army that, while having a solid troop base, makes room for specialists like elites, fast, and heavy is simply going to have an advantage.

starlight
05-07-2008, 06:34
Some Troops are just that good. :)

Orks, Marines and Sisters are three that I wouldn't mind having more Troops slots for, especially in smaller point games. :)

The_Outsider
05-07-2008, 10:34
However froces that have very good troops choices often fail to work outside of very specific areas where they have the advantage (numbers for orks, versatility for marines and mass faith for sisters come to mind).

Fundamentally these forces (and we'll include CSM here) will hit a wall around (give or take) the third or fourth troops choice, they will have too many bodies on the field to get the correct amount of support needed to sustain them/ are paying way too many points just to get another heavy weapon on the table.

SoB (who are notoriously short ranged when it comes to infantry mounted weapons) would be better off taking out a squad and adding in an excorcist or two.

Champsguy
05-07-2008, 16:03
Sisters are better than Marines, point for point, in shooting. They are worse in hand to hand. So an army that can stomp Marines into the mud in HTH should be able to do the same to sisters even faster. Stealer Shock will rip this army a new one.

Or how about this:

Warboss w/ huge choppa and attack squig and tl-shoota
3 squads of 3 Warbuggies w/ rocket launcher
5 squads of 10 orks w/ big shoota w/ truck

That's 1000 points. Get to hand to hand as fast as you can and you'll murder the sisters.

RazielZian
05-07-2008, 16:23
Tyranids 1001 points:

Broodlord (Flesh hooks, Toxin sacs)
6 Genesteelers (Flesh hooks)

12 Genesteelers (Flesh Hooks)

12 Genesteelers (Flesh Hooks)

12 Genesteelers (Flesh Hooks)

12 Genesteelers (Flesh Hooks)

Thats the first army, with god use of cover to give a decent save bonus to these guys they WILL hit H2H in fairly good condition, at which point, your screwed.

--------------

Dark Angels 1000 points:

Chaplian (Jump Pack)
4 Assault Marines
Assault Sergeant (Power Weapon)

4 Tactical Marines (Meltagun)
Tactical Sergeant (Power Weapon)
Razorback (Twin Linked Heavy Bolters, Extra Armour, Pintle Mounted StormBolter)

4 Tactical Marines (Meltagun)
Tactical Sergeant (Power Weapon)
Razorback (Twin Linked Heavy Bolters, Extra Armour, Pintle Mounted StormBolter)

4 Tactical Marines (Meltagun)
Tactical Sergeant (Power Weapon)
Razorback (Twin Linked Heavy Bolters, Extra Armour, Pintle Mounted StormBolter)

4 Tactical Marines (Meltagun)
Tactical Sergeant (Power Weapon)
Razorback (Twin Linked Heavy Bolters, Extra Armour, Pintle Mounted StormBolter)

All things considering its a very small army, but its got the manuverablilty to take objectives before you get there, close fast into H2H, and careful use of tanks works very very well as solid cover for marines to advance behind once they are destroyed.

All of these things will strip away the advantages that that sisters list has.

Its biggest draw back is its lack of numbers.

Tarquinn
05-07-2008, 16:31
Any Eldar army with an Avatar in it will beat that SoB army.

Miggidy Mack
05-07-2008, 16:34
I have played against a fairly similiar list with my Imperial Guard several times. In 5th edition, you can wipe out one unit a turn with ordinance fire. Since you don't have any vehicles or a way to get your anti-tank across the board faster... well it would be pretty one sided.

kiron
05-07-2008, 18:14
Tyranids 1001 points:

Broodlord (Flesh hooks, Toxin sacs)
6 Genesteelers (Flesh hooks)

12 Genesteelers (Flesh Hooks)

12 Genesteelers (Flesh Hooks)

12 Genesteelers (Flesh Hooks)

12 Genesteelers (Flesh Hooks)

Thats the first army, with god use of cover to give a decent save bonus to these guys they WILL hit H2H in fairly good condition, at which point, your screwed.

--------------

Dark Angels 1000 points:

Chaplian (Jump Pack)
4 Assault Marines
Assault Sergeant (Power Weapon)

4 Tactical Marines (Meltagun)
Tactical Sergeant (Power Weapon)
Razorback (Twin Linked Heavy Bolters, Extra Armour, Pintle Mounted StormBolter)

4 Tactical Marines (Meltagun)
Tactical Sergeant (Power Weapon)
Razorback (Twin Linked Heavy Bolters, Extra Armour, Pintle Mounted StormBolter)

4 Tactical Marines (Meltagun)
Tactical Sergeant (Power Weapon)
Razorback (Twin Linked Heavy Bolters, Extra Armour, Pintle Mounted StormBolter)

4 Tactical Marines (Meltagun)
Tactical Sergeant (Power Weapon)
Razorback (Twin Linked Heavy Bolters, Extra Armour, Pintle Mounted StormBolter)

All things considering its a very small army, but its got the manuverablilty to take objectives before you get there, close fast into H2H, and careful use of tanks works very very well as solid cover for marines to advance behind once they are destroyed.

All of these things will strip away the advantages that that sisters list has.

Its biggest draw back is its lack of numbers.

The tyranid army has to rely on cover ALOT, one blast from sisters, the entire squad is gone, rending isn't as powerful anymore, sister will never run from cc. Not convinced enough to be one-sided, if not enough terrain used or bad place the nids are screwed.

As for the marine army, it loses in the kp mission objective, sorry, 10 kp in that army, not too hard to easily gain 5 kp with the sisters considering the transports are easy points. And definitely not convinced that the marine list can wipe the sisters down to the last model so sisters can still win via kill points.

And why does everyone think sisters are rubbish in cc? with some faith these girls kick ass, str 5 is pretty good (well since sister I suck, we are assuming they strike last anyways). The 3 bigger squads can actually ground down any of the marine attack squads in a prolonged fight. Assuming using faith, the vet along can inflict 1.5 hits (from 3 attacks), 1 wound with powerweapon so one dead marine while marines inflict 2 kills one average after the charge.

RazielZian
05-07-2008, 18:24
The tyranid army has to rely on cover ALOT, one blast from sisters, the entire squad is gone, rending isn't as powerful anymore, sister will never run from cc. Not convinced enough to be one-sided, if not enough terrain used or bad place the nids are screwed.

As for the marine army, i loses in the kp mission objective, sorry, 10 kp in that army, not too hard to easily gain 5 kp with the sisters considering the transports are easy points. And definitely not convinced that the marine list can wipe the sisters down to the last model so sisters can still win via kill points.

All armies rely on cover... so that argument is spurious, unless fo course you've never played nids, and yes I know all about rending, but thats not why I took steelers, I took them because they are stupid fast and deadly once they hit.

Yes the KP is low for the marine army (already pointed this out) however I also pointed out that they can out maneouver the SoB, and use the terrain to their advantage to close in enough to hit combat. I never said marines will be one sided, just that they could beat them, which is what was asked for.
Espically since the SoB have no ranged anti-armour there. I was considering doing 10 man tacs with HB and using combat squads to break into ranged and close, but getting them into position would be a problem, si I figured for an army with no ranged anit-armour, razors would work fine.

Guardian of the Rage
05-07-2008, 18:33
personally, if i were trying to crate a list soley to be that one at 1k in the new 5th ed rules, i'd focus on chaos with defilers and long range-ish chaos squads.

3 defilers the only weapons that the enemy has to harm them are only effective at 12 inches, and there is only one close combat weapon that can harm it ! One of these gets into combat and can tie up entire squads whilst the marines move in. and assist with objectives. Add the lash to move the units where you want

At 1 k you can get

sorceror with lash 130

Marines units for 140 (probably 8 men, icon of glory and plasma)
Marines units for 140
Marines units for 140

defiler (extra CCWs) 150
defiler (extra CCWs) 150
defiler (extra CCWs) 150

The sorceror will move units to be charged by defilers (or away from combat if they've got meltas) and the marines will either aid in CC or blast to occupy units until they can be rinsed by defilers in CC (where the sisters CANNOT hurt them: faith points aside)

Any help?

GotR

kiron
05-07-2008, 18:34
nvm, found an army that made the battle fairly one sided.

1 cannoness-bolter
1 cannoness-bolter

20 sisters-vet w/ book, powerweapon
20 sisters-vet w/ book, powerweapon

3 exorcists

45 models
7 kill points
997 points
6 faith points

though not what I had in mind...looks a lot cheesier than 69 sisters...

kiron
05-07-2008, 18:38
The sorceror will move units to be charged by defilers (or away from combat if they've got meltas) and the marines will either aid in CC or blast to occupy units until they can be rinsed by defilers in CC (where the sisters CANNOT hurt them: faith points aside)

Any help?

GotR

I'm pretty sure eviscerators can hurt the defilers, they have what armor 13? so 6 (8 with faith) +2d6 should easily hurt them

Guardian of the Rage
05-07-2008, 18:40
I'm pretty sure eviscerators can hurt the defilers, they have what armor 13? so 6 (8 with faith) +2d6 should easily hurt them

Thats one weapon (in the whole army), and surprise surprise, that the squad that you keep out of CC, using the LASH, surprise surprise.

GotR

kiron
05-07-2008, 18:43
Thats one weapon (in the whole army), and surprise surprise, that the squad that you keep out of CC, using the LASH, surprise surprise.

GotR

Just hope the sisters 5+ save doesn't screw you over. but you're bound to fail eventually...

Alright,want to help me deal with the 2nd sister army...the one with 3 exorcists and 42 sisters?
Is there an army that can make BOTH the 69 sisters and the 42 sisters army fairly one sided?

The_Outsider
05-07-2008, 18:46
? so 6 (8 with faith) +2d6 should easily hurt them

Typically in 40k (unless faith specifies this) any +'s are done after multipliers (so a furious charging powerfist armed marine is S9, not 10).

So would be looking at 7, not 8.

Surgency
05-07-2008, 19:25
faith adds +2... so 3, doubled, plus 2, is 8... Unless I missed something here (I don't have my codex handy)

kiron
05-07-2008, 20:05
Typically in 40k (unless faith specifies this) any +'s are done after multipliers (so a furious charging powerfist armed marine is S9, not 10).

So would be looking at 7, not 8.

It's str 3 basic, then multipply for str 6, then +2 for faith so 8. Then factor in 2d6 for armor pentration so average of 7 on 2 dice gives armor pentration of 15...so defilers can easily be penetrated in cc.

Jimbobjeff
05-07-2008, 20:13
Surely you should be looking for a player to beat this list not another list? In my experience a bad list played by a good player will beat a good list played by a bad player.

GrandReaper
05-07-2008, 20:16
For the first list, I'm going to say Mech Tau, even though you already said you beat mech. However, all it has to do is hold it's objective and contest yours to win. Or, it can just go for a tie objective wise (last minute hop on the objective) and spend the whole game whittling you down to win on VPs.

How about 3 squads in devilfish and some Railheads. Should be an easy win.

The_Outsider
05-07-2008, 20:34
It's str 3 basic, then multipply for str 6, then +2 for faith so 8. Then factor in 2d6 for armor pentration so average of 7 on 2 dice gives armor pentration of 15...so defilers can easily be penetrated in cc.

I see, I thought it was +1, not 2.

Ekranoplan
05-07-2008, 23:03
This list is definitely beatable, but some armies will have a harder time then others. All infantry guard will die wholesale, guard with lots of ordnance will probably do just fine. Orks I think will be evenly matched, it would come down to whoever is the better player I think. It is also very easy to design a list to counter this list if you know you are just going to be playing against this list. In a tournament most people will have all comer lists though, so this list has a strength there.

With the Book of St. Lucius, the large Sister units wont have that hard of a time in close combat. They wont win, but they certainly wont be routed instantly. If you had some counter assault then you would be able to win the CC.

pox
05-07-2008, 23:32
There are restrictions to beating it, must play all 3 scenarios and beat it soundly in all 3 scenarios. So no lists that are good for capture objectives but terrible in terms of kp and vica versa.



Also games are played on 4x4 boards as well (c'mon it's 1000 points), it's not too disadvantaged much in movement.

It's about they other guy having insufficient time (6 turns max) to chew through your army


a few things about this "unbeatable" army.
you can't play it on a 4x4 board. if your talking about a theoretical game, I would assume you are using all the rules. the new rules work with holding objectives, and movement is important for that. to limit the board size, especially when it favors the slow sisters list, seems a tad unfair. the rules are written for play on a 6x4. I've only heard of combat patrol on a 4x4. (which is only 400 points.)

also, on the note of movement and holding objectives, all the new games have a random game length, starting at the end of turn five, and possibly going on to turn seven.


its a very strong list in the new rules, but it only has a ton of advantages with the kill point games. I don't think its gonna win in the first two missions, not if your playing on a right-sized board.

kiron
06-07-2008, 03:35
Surely you should be looking for a player to beat this list not another list? In my experience a bad list played by a good player will beat a good list played by a bad player.

Yeah, but i'm looking at this list as well mainly because this is one of the few lists that can be taken and win games without people crying cheese! If they lose to basic troopers, well it's their fault.

WallWeasels
06-07-2008, 04:53
Well its not a bad list besides my complaints of:
power weapons + str 3 (against a game of predominantly T4 models)
Nothing beyond 24"

I would say at best try for atleast one exorcist, Heavy Bolters, or anything in between. Because for gods sake you are going to be torn apart from range if someone realizes you have to get to them to shoot effectively.
Canoness, Eviscerator, BoSL, 75
15 Sisters, VSP, BoSL, Melta x2 204 x3 612
Exorcist, Extra Armor, 140 x2 280
Ends up leaving around 33 points, I would try to wiggle in either a combi weapon on the superiors or giving the Canoness Jumppack + Inferno Pistol so just incase theres something outside the reach of the squads meltas, its plausible to Jump out and assault/melta it. Besides that, you could give them a Blazier, to help against Horde armies, or just put in heavy flamers for 2pts more than the meltas and then leave yourself 27points to wiggle with. Which could be...an Inquisitor with...a bolter and...uh...**** it just give the superiors Melta Bombs :)

Sekhmet
06-07-2008, 12:59
Any army with a ridiculously hard-hitting and fast-moving assault force will rip the sisters apart like, say, a 10 man Death Company with Chaplain.

An army with T8 things, like the C'tan or Wraithlords, will also rip the army apart.

The Death Company are particularly deadly against your list because your longest range weapons that pose any threat are 12", and they have a 18" move+charge. When they charge, they'll strike first and wound on 6s. They'll reroll misses and rend on wound rolls of 6. The Chaplain will do considerable damage too. They'll wound either on 5s (or 3s if you use the +2 strength), but only hit on 4s. Then the DC will get a 3+ save and 4+ FNP.

And that's only one squad.

kiron
06-07-2008, 13:11
Any army with a ridiculously hard-hitting and fast-moving assault force will rip the sisters apart like, say, a 10 man Death Company with Chaplain.

An army with T8 things, like the C'tan or Wraithlords, will also rip the army apart.

The Death Company are particularly deadly

c'mon you got to remember this is 1000 points, not many people bring these
I have seen the sister squad grind down a 10 man squad with a chaplain...

The list still require some skills on positioning. Usually most opponents end up charging the big squad with the canoness in it only to realize that they must charge a 3+ invuln unit or face 40+ bolter shots next round. 10 man with chaplain is not much, I have seen the big unit survive against a 12 banshee jump unit from wave serpent.

Even if the 10 man squad with chaplain does not hit a big unit, I can let it hit another unit and say 10 dies at end of cc, I can opt to let my unit flee and get destroyed resulting in the chaplain consolidating and eat 60+ DG bolter shots next round. A 10 man squad with chaplain is easily worth more than 20 sisters and not many people are willing to put all their eggs in one basket.

Also, I have played games where my sisters stayed at around 20" and just shot single shots, with around 18 shots, a unit, I don't mind using DG as long as I get min. 12 hits. Still not bad economically.

Sekhmet
06-07-2008, 13:36
c'mon you got to remember this is 1000 points, not many people bring these
I have seen the sister squad grind down a 10 man squad with a chaplain...

The list still require some skills on positioning. Usually most opponents end up charging the big squad with the canoness in it only to realize that they must charge a 3+ invuln unit or face 40+ bolter shots next round. 10 man with chaplain is not much, I have seen the big unit survive against a 12 banshee jump unit from wave serpent.

Even if the 10 man squad with chaplain does not hit a big unit, I can let it hit another unit and say 10 dies at end of cc, I can opt to let my unit flee and get destroyed resulting in the chaplain consolidating and eat 60+ DG bolter shots next round. A 10 man squad with chaplain is easily worth more than 20 sisters and not many people are willing to put all their eggs in one basket.

Also, I have played games where my sisters stayed at around 20" and just shot single shots, with around 18 shots, a unit, I don't mind using DG as long as I get min. 12 hits. Still not bad economically.

Curious - Do you know how acts of faith work? Divine Guidance would work in a huge squad, but Spirit of the Martyr probably won't. How do you roll over 20 on 2d6?

Lord Damocles
06-07-2008, 14:53
c'mon you got to remember this is 1000 points, not many people bring these.
Not many people will use a sister hoard. If you're going to use an exteme army like this, whats to say that others won't use similarly extreme forces?

The list still require some skills on positioning. Usually most opponents end up charging the big squad with the canoness in it only to realize that they must charge a 3+ invuln unit or face 40+ bolter shots next round.
Getting the big squad to have a 3+ inv. save is a mathematical impossibility. No, really, it is.

10 man with chaplain is not much, I have seen the big unit survive against a 12 banshee jump unit from wave serpent.
That'll be using an impossible act of faith I assume?
A maxed out Death Company will hit considerably harder than Banshees.

Even if the 10 man squad with chaplain does not hit a big unit, I can let it hit another unit and say 10 dies at end of cc, I can opt to let my unit flee and get destroyed resulting in the chaplain consolidating and eat 60+ DG bolter shots next round.
60 Bolter shots won't get rid of that unit. By my MathHammer it'll kill a mighty 3 Death Company. Three!:eek:

Starchild
06-07-2008, 15:08
Any solid combo of shooting followed up by assaults could take this army out.

For Eldar, Support Weapon teams would be a good option-- especially the D-Cannon. Shadow Weavers would cause alot of damage simply by causing lots of hits; even scattering, that would be even better than a Whirlwind against massed 60+ infantry. :evilgrin:

onnotangu
06-07-2008, 15:18
Curious - Do you know how acts of faith work? Divine Guidance would work in a huge squad, but Spirit of the Martyr probably won't. How do you roll over 20 on 2d6?

Litanies of Faith

kiron
06-07-2008, 23:31
Not many people will use a sister hoard. If you're going to use an exteme army like this, whats to say that others won't use similarly extreme forces?

Getting the big squad to have a 3+ inv. save is a mathematical impossibility. No, really, it is.

That'll be using an impossible act of faith I assume?
A maxed out Death Company will hit considerably harder than Banshees.

60 Bolter shots won't get rid of that unit. By my MathHammer it'll kill a mighty 3 Death Company. Three!:eek:

Thing is a sister horde is slight extreme that works. cTan do not work in 1k. Litanies of faith allow 1 act of faith without testing, so bait your opponent into a position to charge the big unit then at beginning of assault use the litanies for martyr, then opponent can either choose not to assault and eat lots of bolter shots or charge 3+ invuln sisters (this is assuming the player with the list is skilled enough for this positioning).

I don't know the stats of a death company. I assumed they are just space marine stats. w/ termi armor. Cause by mathhammer 60 shots gets 40 hits, that's 6-7 AP1 (so 4 wounds after invuln) hits and 12-14 other wounds (assuming T4 and 2+ save which means about 2 unsaved) to give combined total of around 6-7 kills. A little higher, and I assume a termi is like 40 wounds each, not that much of a trade off. Definitely don't see 10 deathwing unit termis w/ a chaplain in a 1k all-comers list.

However, vs. that specific list...maybe, really depends on the actual players, i won't save the list is guarantee win, maybe the sisters will get a round of shooting before charging.

The_Outsider
06-07-2008, 23:47
It is worth remembering that versus a C'tan a 3+ invulnerable save doesn't mean anything at all.

kiron
06-07-2008, 23:56
It is worth remembering that versus a C'tan a 3+ invulnerable save doesn't mean anything at all.

Also remember it statistically takes less than 100 bolter shots to kill a c'tan, easily done by the sisters. So 2 rounds of shooting (long range!) easily brings a c'tan down :P

Against necrons with a c'tan (so no monolith) at 1k there is no reason not to phalanx for sisters because no particle whip.

Sekhmet
07-07-2008, 01:20
Also remember it statistically takes less than 100 bolter shots to kill a c'tan, easily done by the sisters. So 2 rounds of shooting (long range!) easily brings a c'tan down :P

Against necrons with a c'tan (so no monolith) at 1k there is no reason not to phalanx for sisters because no particle whip.

Statistically it takes infinite bolter shots to kill a C'tan.

The probability of a bolter (or even a divine guidanced bolter) killing a C'tan is exactly 0 without any rounding whatsoever.

kiron
07-07-2008, 01:29
whoops, you're right, thought str 4 can wound toughness 8 :C

I always thought the formula was 2xstr+1 to be invuln to the strength

Sekhmet
07-07-2008, 01:35
I always thought the formula was 2xstr+1 to be invuln to the strength

that would be weaponskill requiring 5+ to hit in close combat.

Strength invul is strictly 4 higher.

So now you see why people proposed wraithlords and/or c'tan?

Champsguy
07-07-2008, 01:42
Litanies of Faith

Litanies of Faith works on a character, not a squad.

Sisters of Battle are a fine Troops selection. But the only thing "unbeatable" in this army is the same as with any other--you're maxing out on one portion of the army list and hoping that your opponent was not expecting you to do so. The Sisters are going to feel like a 15 year old girl who had too much to drink at a frat party if somebody decides to bring 3 Basilisks. This is basically a "surprise!" army, because you're hoping the other guy is surprised by a build that is very unusual, and thus isn't prepared to fight it.

My Ravenwing could murder both of the armies mentioned here (3 exorcists and horde-sisters). That's because these armies are both very very slow. I'd mass my army on one side of the field, and let you deploy in response to me. Then I'd scout and turbo-boost to the opposite side of my deployment zone and swing around the edge. You aren't mobile at all, and can't redeploy.

Sekhmet
07-07-2008, 01:47
Litanies of Faith works on a character, not a squad.

Oh I didn't see that reply. Yeah, what champsguy said. :D

Basically, you won't be getting invul saves unless you dip under 8-9 members.

kiron
07-07-2008, 04:45
Litanies of Faith works on a character, not a squad.



From the book

"Any Act of Faith that's successful applies to the entire unit, including when a character is joined to a unit that has the Adepta Sororitas rules."

Since the litanies auto success the act, it applies to the whole unit.

kiron
07-07-2008, 04:50
that would be weaponskill requiring 5+ to hit in close combat.

Strength invul is strictly 4 higher.

So now you see why people proposed wraithlords and/or c'tan?

I see...it may work well in kp scenarios, but I'm still very skeptical about objective missions, since that means little troops left, especially for necrons.

nightbringer, 2x10 warriors, 3 destroyers and 2 hvy destroyers (i assume most players would want to cover their AT?)

Champsguy
07-07-2008, 05:13
From the book

"Any Act of Faith that's successful applies to the entire unit, including when a character is joined to a unit that has the Adepta Sororitas rules."

Since the litanies auto success the act, it applies to the whole unit.

From the same page, under "Independent Characters using Acts of Faith":

"While part of a Faithful unit, use the normal rules for attempting Acts of Faith, counting the character towards the total squad size."

If she's joined a squad, the squad uses the power. If she's alone, she uses the power.

Lord Damocles
07-07-2008, 10:02
Litanies of Faith

Just further to the Act of Faith discussion:

Litanies of Faith: Once per game, the CHARACTER may use an Act of Faith without the need for a Test of Faith, and without expending a Faith Point

Independant Characters Using Acts of Faith: While part of a Faithful unit, use the normal rules for attempting Acts of Faith, counting the charcter towards the total squad size.

Nowhere in the rules does it say that a character can pass effects of an AoF onto a squad. Conversely, it does say that the effects of a squad's AoF are passed onto attached characters. Seems pretty clear cut to me. At best you could get the Cannoness to have an invulnerable save for the round of combat... which doesn't really help.

On to Death Company MathHammer:

60 shots at BS4 = 40 hits.
S4 vs T4 = 20 wounds
AP5 vs 3+ Sv = 6 failed saves (rounding down slightly)
4+ FNP = 3 dead marines

With Divine Guidance?
60 shots at BS4 = 40 hits.
- Assume ToF is passed -
S4 vs T4 = 20 wounds. 3 will be AP1 (rounding down again)
AP5 vs 3+ Sv = 6 failed saves (rounding up this time)
4+ FNP = 3 dead marines
AP1 vs 3+ save = 1.5 wounds
Total = 4.5 dead marines assuming that they're not in cover

Of course the DC will hide behind terrain, and then get an effective 18" assault, so there's not going to be a great deal of chance to shoot them...

kiron
07-07-2008, 14:45
Just further to the Act of Faith discussion:


With Divine Guidance?
60 shots at BS4 = 40 hits.
- Assume ToF is passed -
S4 vs T4 = 20 wounds. 3 will be AP1 (rounding down again)
AP5 vs 3+ Sv = 6 failed saves (rounding up this time)
4+ FNP = 3 dead marines
AP1 vs 3+ save = 1.5 wounds
Total = 4.5 dead marines assuming that they're not in cover


Why is 3 AP1?
with 40 hits, any 6s to wound for rolling counts as AP1. 40 divided by 6 is little more than 6, so 6-7AP1 hits

Lord Damocles
07-07-2008, 16:07
Why is 3 AP1?
with 40 hits, any 6s to wound for rolling counts as AP1. 40 divided by 6 is little more than 6, so 6-7AP1 hits

You're quite right. Hmm, my Calculus Logi must be playing up :p

Lets try that again...

With Divine Guidance:
60 shots at BS4 = 40 hits.
- Assume ToF is passed -
S4 vs T4 = 20 wounds. 6 will be AP1 (rounding down)
AP5 vs 3+ Sv = 5 failed saves (rounding up)
4+ FNP = 2.5 dead marines
AP1 vs 3+ save = 6 wounds
Total = 8.5 dead marines assuming that they're not in cover

Of course the chances of this ever actually happening are still next to nil unless the Death Company are TRYING to get themselves killed...

Fire Harte
07-07-2008, 16:12
Plasma Cannons! wreak havoc upon you as you and Close Range seige tanks are tough nuts to break anyway. A Russ or a basilisk can stay out of your way and really mess you up.

Ruroni
07-07-2008, 16:48
There's plenty of lists to beat this for sure, but it's a decent list. I'd sub out one of the 4 squads for something long range and high str though if possible. Anything winged or beast moving would give you hell. Just among my armies:

IG: (Drop Troops, Grenadiers, 10 kill points, 5 objective holders, and the army you'd most have trouble killing in 1k.)
Command-40
Platoon:~200
Grenadier Squad 1: ~125
Grenadier Squad 2: ~125
8 Rough Riders ~100
2x Lascannon Sentinel ~50
Russ -150
Basilisk -120

Nids: (6 kill points, 2 objective holders)
Winged Tyrant~200
5 Raveners -200
32 hormagaunts (2 units) ~400
2x dakkafexs

BT: (6 kill points, 2 objective holders)
LRC + asault termies ~ 465 (sure, it's half the points, but in 1k it's almost impossible to kill before you get charged, and the unit will certainly kill one of your biggest even with invuls)
2 units of troops (7 guys) in rhinos ~ 375
EC ~100
Castellan with a p wep. ~75

stjohn70
07-07-2008, 17:27
It amuses me to see so many people suggesting tactics / units / armies / etc that have no concept of what the Sisters are capable of.

I'm not saying that the OP's army is unbeatable - far from it.

The "one uber squad" will always fail. Every time. Sure the DC hits a squad and kills a ton. The Sisters opt to not use the Book of St Lucius - and now have to roll a 2 to stay. They obviously don't, and now the DC cannot consolidate into a new combat, and has 3 squads rapid-firing it into oblivion.
The C'Tan in a 1000 pt list means you have next to nothing else on the field, and the Sisters can and will go for the Phase Out. The C'Tan will eat his one squad - and the Sisters will stay put for forever with the Book.
Relying on Lash will get you burned hard - as you will fail sometimes, and almost assuredly not chew through a squad a turn.

The trick to beating Sisters is to cause lots of wounds. They don't need to beat armour - just cause lots of wounds.
I would probably take this army on with Orks. One big squad of Stormboyz to get up and tie up shooting Sisters, a group of Grots to provide cover, and a crap load of Boyz.

Lord Damocles
07-07-2008, 17:50
The "one uber squad" will always fail. Every time. Sure the DC hits a squad and kills a ton. The Sisters opt to not use the Book of St Lucius - and now have to roll a 2 to stay. They obviously don't, and now the DC cannot consolidate into a new combat, and has 3 squads rapid-firing it into oblivion.

Of course the DC alone won't beat this list...

But the DC isn't the entire army. Personally I'd go for something along the lines of:
Lemartes
10 DC with Jump Packs
10 Assault Marines
10 Assault Marines

You'd probably have a few points left over for power weapons etc.

This should be able to tie up multiple sister squads in one turn. The DC will munch through an entire squad, while even if they don't wipe them out, the Assault Squads will hold the sisters in combat and stop them shooting. Take a turn of pain from Divine Guidance aided bolters and S5 sisters, then have the DC charge in again.

Of course this type of discussion will never reach a definite conclusion, because terrain, objectives etc. can't be taken into account...

stjohn70
07-07-2008, 18:13
1-3 big squads just wouldn't cut it though. Were I to take Blood Angels against the Sisters, I would take 5-6 5-man Assault Squads (mebbe a vet squad in there), then the 5-6 free DC, Lemartes.
My squads are more fragile, but there's more of them - and more squads to hold objectives. Then DC are only worth what you can get for free against the Sisters. With this army, I think that whomever got the positioning advantage would win. Neither army wants to end up within 18" of the other. The BA have more inherent move capabilities, but the addition of Running doesn't make it as cut and dry as it previously was.

Ruroni
07-07-2008, 21:01
The "one uber squad" will always fail. Every time.

In this case I beg to differ. The BT CC termies for example will very possibly kill the almost entire largest unit of sisters (4 LC and 1 thammer, means 16 hit on 3s with a reroll, wound on 2s (f charge) with a reroll p weapons, and you'd fail the invul act cause the unit would start too large), and emperor willing maybe even be able to consolidate back into the LR, or if not, they'd have to weather the other 3 units shooting, still very possibly survive, and move on. This is with the LRC firing heavily on another unit and very possibly also killing several with the defensive bolters alone.

This isn't just an army I made up to beat this either, in 1k I always field this, my favorite unit, and it usually pays off due to the lack of anti tank in 1k.

Sekhmet
07-07-2008, 22:53
The C'Tan in a 1000 pt list means you have next to nothing else on the field, and the Sisters can and will go for the Phase Out. The C'Tan will eat his one squad - and the Sisters will stay put for forever with the Book.


Going for phase out with 24" bolters as your longest range weapon and running as your fastest movement speed?

onnotangu
07-07-2008, 23:30
Going for phase out with 24" bolters as your longest range weapon and running as your fastest movement speed?

necron warriors are not that fast.

Sekhmet
08-07-2008, 01:39
necron warriors are not that fast.

What does that have to do with anything?

zealot!
08-07-2008, 01:48
ill skip the bs and say i can smash that original list easy. sisters are tier 1 in 5th ed tho for sure. im just loling @ no exorcists... best gun in the game atm..