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Getifa Ubazza
05-07-2008, 16:20
A simple question really. What would a whole army of these guys look like on the table. Would they use tanks, how about Dreadnoughts or Defilers? I remember that when they were in the CSM Codex they had ATSKNF, so would i be better using the SM codex or even the DA one?

Fluff question: Do they ever gather in large enough numbers to make a 40k size army?

Hulkster
05-07-2008, 16:25
Yes they have in the past, well i am pretty certain any way

The SM or CSM dex would be best imho

Kadrec
05-07-2008, 16:25
Fluff-wise, you should *never* expect to see the Fallen congregated in large enough numbers to make even a 40k Combat Patrol. As the only Dark Angels outside of the Inner Circle who know what happened at Caliban, they're pretty much in hiding.

I would say: Dark Angels codex if you want to use them at all, absolutely *not* Chaos Space Marines under any circumstances. By some points of view, the Fallen are the only Loyal Dark Angels left.

RazielZian
05-07-2008, 16:28
The Fallen don't make use of much of chaos except as tools, the last time they gathered in mass numbers was before the fall of Caliban, but small forces of them is not unheard of (you just need good fluff to back it up)

For the most part a fallen DA can pass for a loyalist marine (except to other DA's) or as a large human. This is where theis greatest strength lies...

PhonelessInAtl
05-07-2008, 16:38
Fluff wise, I'd say its extremely unlikely that many fallen would gather very often. Can't imagine that there was anything they would have any interest in conquering (unless it was for Cypher?), and they would attract alot of unwanted attention...

...but that being said, go for it :D. I've been tempted to do the same thing, but I ended up whimping out and just putting a unit of them as chosen in my BL.
And yea, I would recommend using the CSM rules, not necissarily because they are all chaos, but because the list seems alittle more infantry-centric (probably not any fallen vehicles running around), and cuz it would give you the weapons they've had since the heresy.

RazielZian
05-07-2008, 16:43
Actually you never see fallen with Cypher, they only follow in his wake, and in force too, the problem being is NOBODY knows where Cypher will pop up next.

Its also unknown if Lord Cypher is loyalist of Traitor.

kendaop
05-07-2008, 16:45
You've got to include the Lord Cypher in the army, too. I read ( I think in the 3rd ed. codex) that large groups of them will gather, but they tend to gather around him, mysteriously. I would say use CSM, because you could have TROOPS space marines and ELITES (chosen); the DA codex just doesn't seem like it would fit. I think it's also a pretty good codex for creating your own, unique HQ unit.

Yayale
05-07-2008, 16:48
ok I haven't read the dark angles codex in a while but I do remember that the fallen were scattered through out time which would make an army of them gathering very difficult. Im pretty certain aswell but don't hold me to this that the fallen were not genetically modified, they were basically imperial guard but better trained and equipped. Also the fallen deffinatly could not be considered the loyal ones as they were convinced to turn against the Dark Angels because of the guy in charge of them being peed off that the chapter master only wanted the space marines to go on a certain mission because he didn't think the unaltered ones were up to it.

PhonelessInAtl
05-07-2008, 16:54
better trained IG:confused: I'm pretty sure they were as marine as anyone back then, someone correct me if im wrong.

So Cypher only does his thing solo?

kendaop
05-07-2008, 17:05
No, it wasn't just the unaltered ones who were left behind, according to DoA. The Lion never really said how he decided who got left behind. There was some kind of a personal rift between him and Luthor after, I believe, Luthor didn't immediately attempt to stop a bombing attempt on one of the DA ships that would've killed the Lion. He got greedy and he saw himself taking over command of the chapter if the Lion were to be killed. Also, the legion already had fully-fledged space marines, BEFORE they discover Johnson. I assume they already had genetic samples of him, before he got swept away by chaos, so the fallen, or at least the majority of them, were true space marines.

There is debate about whether the fallen could've been or still could be loyalist. IIRC, it's because there was a mix-up when the chapter returned to Caliban and the ones who were stationed on the planet accidentally fired at the returning ships, which started a fight which could not be stopped until someone won.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the fallen will mysteriously gather around Cypher, but there was no mention of what they would do together (sing Kumbaya, maybe). I don't remember where I saw that, though. I just looked in my 3rd ed codex and didn't see anything in there about it.

RazielZian
05-07-2008, 17:06
No one, not DA secret council, nor the chaos gods know that Cypher is upto or what his motivations are, one moment he works for the imperium, the other it looks like hes chaos, noone truely knows. So I would strongly disagree with putting him in either DA or fallen army as his fluff suits neither.

What little is known is once cypher does his things, groups of fallen appear in the area, once again nobody knows why, mabey they work for him, mabey they hunt him... who knows.

So while you can get away with groups of fallen (even a small army) using cyphers fluff, it would be wrong in my opinion to use cypher as a member of that army.

kendaop
05-07-2008, 17:07
Hmm...sounds familiar, BTW, where are you getting that info?

RazielZian
05-07-2008, 17:09
So Cypher only does his thing solo?


Virtually ALL fallen prefere to work solo. as for cypher...? nobody knows... very very little is known about him in general, heck he may not even be Lord Cypher... heh now theres something to think about

-------

I get my sources from a large collection of BL books, various codex's and a number of white dwarfs, there is the odd snippet about cypher, I try to gather as much info on him as I can, but let me tell you... in 19 years of playing DA... even I dont know much about him.

kendaop
05-07-2008, 17:17
Yeah, I think that's the point about a lot of DA fluff, you're not suppposed to know much about them. I wonder if el'Johnson and Alpharius would've been friends? Anyways, I was just wondering because I've read that about Cypher, but I don't recall where I read it.

However, I'd have to say that there is a good case for including Cypher in a Fallen army. First of all, he's Fallen himself; whether he fights for the Imperium or Chaos, he's still Fallen. As for the rest of them, they might still be loyalist, but hunted by the Imperium. Second, in 3rd ed Chaos, he was an available character for a Chaos army, so, whether he truly fights for Chaos or not, he obviously mingles and associates with them, giving good reason why he might lead or fight with a Fallen/Chaos army.

Edit: To attempt to get this thread back on topic, I would say, the most true-to-the-fluff answer would be to incorporate small units of them in with other armies. The large Fallen army doesn't seem that realistic. If you are determined, however, to make a Fallen army, you can't go wrong with lots of infantry. I don't know if using lots of dreadnoughts and tanks would be reasonable or not. I'm not sure if they'd survive the warp or if there might be other reasons they wouldn't have those things. I don't think they'd have terminators at all, but I could be wrong about that.

Guardian of the Rage
05-07-2008, 17:25
As i recall, based on posts in DA fluff related topics on B&C. The posibility has been put forward and then never strongly rejected several times that:

1) the current dark angels are possibly not the 'loyalists' or those that fired on the lion's return, hence the total secrecy abou their past (and luthor never repents and says that one day the emperor wil exonhorate him) The total confusion after the battle hid the true outcome.

2) the 'Fallen' are infact those that were loyal to the emperor (as was luthor) and were defeated, hence why the rest of the chapter hunt them down to ensure that noone discovers that the current dark angels once turned against the emperor.

and finally the biggy...

3) cypher is in fact none other than 'the lion' himself. He didn't follow chaos, but he hesitated to see which of the 2 (horus and emperor) would gain upper hand. This 'betrayal' (kind of) now racks him with guilt, so he wanders, and the 'fallen follow' not working with him but hunting him down. The lion disappeared, cypher miraculously appears.


This IS NOT fact, it is simply a collection of the musings from a collection of dark angel history fanatics on B&C. Sounds intriguing to say the least, and explains quite a few things while leaving some questions hoplessly unanswered.

All this would imply that they are space marines (pure and simple) hence any representation of them as chaos would be wrong in terms of abilities (daemonic etc) but the old issue wargear would fit ofcourse. And Cypher should definately not be the HQ, as no-one (ok orks sometimes do) wants to kill their own leader.

GotR

Something else i remembered is that the dicision around who stayed with luthor and who went with the lion was based on those more willing to follow the lion going with him (whatever he decided to do) and those that were steadfastly with the emperor stayed with luthor (and the firing on the return may not have been an accident)

My apologies if some of this seems confused, i'm not a DA officionado.

Sir_Turalyon
05-07-2008, 17:36
Fluff-wise, you should *never* expect to see the Fallen congregated in large enough numbers to make even a 40K Combat Patrol.


Fluff wise, new Codex: Dark Angels says that sometimes Fallen appear in groups, and sometimes entire deathwing is needed to defeat them - that's 4300 points of Terminators. Fallen easily can appear in forces up to companmy size.

As for original poster's question, Fallen are unlikely to use vehicles - no mention of these being sunked from Caliban.

Good idea of fielding the Fallen - with defilers, cult units and pretty much everything in Codex: Chaos - is regular CSM warband led by few Fallen. With all Dark Angels being scheming, manipulative liars and Fallen being known demagogues on top of that, it's possible for them to convince other Chaos Marines to follow them and serve at unwilling tools, while making them think they are dedicated chaos worshippers. Cypher does it all the time.

My (yet to be started) idea of Fallen army includes Fallen Lord, squad of Fallen Chosen, and army of Sons of Horus whom Lord convinced it's better to follow him and worship memory of true Warmaster then go with "usurping upstart" Abaddon.


EDIT:

Idea that Fallen are in fact loyalist and Dark Angels Chapter is descended from traitors is fun, but does not fit with backgroung pieces describing itterogation of captured Falen: some Fallen are ashamed by their moment of weakness and repent eagerly, some defiantly claim Luther was right, but none says it was them who was loyal. Hunt for the Fallen does look more like silencing witnesses then seeking repantence, and no other chapter whose members turn to chaos (happens all the time according to new chaos codex) takes so much effort to hunt renegades down, but's it's case of Dark Angels thinking they are special because their legion was number one.


2) the 'Fallen' are infact those that were loyal to the emperor (as was luthor) and were defeated, hence why the rest of the chapter hunt them down to ensure that noone discovers that the current dark angels once turned against the emperor.


The Dark Angels that followed Lion were loyalist: after all, Horus allowed Emperor to teleport on his battle barge only because Dark Angels and Space Wolves fleets were about to arrive and lift Siedge of Emperor's Palace. There might be loyalist on Caliban, but there were no traitors in Lion's fleet. Luther has been buffed by Chaos powers so that he might fiight Lion as equal, and fight he did. So there were traitors, and they were Luthor's followers.



3) cypher is in fact none other than 'the lion' himself. He didn't follow chaos, but he hesitated to see which of the 2 (horus and emperor) would gain upper hand. This 'betrayal' (kind of) now racks him with guilt, so he wanders, and the 'fallen follow' not working with him but hunting him down. The lion disappeared, cypher miraculously appears


Except Lion is asleep in heart of the Rock... But there is still possibility that whatever Cypher is doing, he's doing it at Lion's last orders.

RazielZian
05-07-2008, 17:37
I have thought about doing a Fallen army to go along with my DA force for a number of years... how I was thinking about doing it was:

Command squad of Fallen Vets (they are ALL vet by now, since they dont recruit into the ranks of the fallen, just recruit for chaos) with a Fallen commander (I suppose you could use Cypher... since there is a reference to him leading a fallen unit in the previous DA codex).

To go with this army I would use either IG or loyalist SM chapter (but NOT GK or DA) since thats how fallen work, they work their way into your graces then turn you on your allies.

Would even work against a DA army with a slight tweak to the DA's hunting the fallen rule, just make it so the DA hates the fallen.

Aliarzathanil
05-07-2008, 18:00
Slightly off topic, but would it be a Fallen Dark Angel army or a Dark Angel Fallen army? Either is correct I suppose, but I think I prefer the former.

RazielZian
05-07-2008, 18:17
Slightly off topic, but would it be a Fallen Dark Angel army or a Dark Angel Fallen army? Either is correct I suppose, but I think I prefer the former.


Neither, it would be an army of the Fallen, since they are no longer DA

Guardian of the Rage
05-07-2008, 18:38
since they are no longer DA

Maybe they are actually the DA!!!:eek:

Read the post above.:wtf:

GotR

HsojVvad
05-07-2008, 18:49
Well from what I have read, the Fallen can be in packs witch is very rare, since they tend to work alone, as leaders in thier community (or the big boss man).

So techniclly you can have a few Fallen band together, but make good fluff for it.

Just remeber they were displaced in time so it would be very rare for them to be together.

RazielZian
05-07-2008, 18:59
Maybe they are actually the DA!!!:eek:

Read the post above.:wtf:

GotR


literally the DA as is known by the emperors magristatium is the chapter that is considered unreliable, the fallen might be loyalist, but they are no longer part of the chapter known as DA.

Danny76
05-07-2008, 19:30
Fluff wise, new Codex: Dark Angels says that sometimes Fallen appear in groups, and sometimes entire deathwing is needed to defeat them - that's 4300 points of Terminators. Fallen easily can appear in forces up to companmy size.

As for original poster's question, Fallen are unlikely to use vehicles - no mention of these being sunked from Caliban.

Good idea of fielding the Fallen - with defilers, cult units and pretty much everything in Codex: Chaos - is regular CSM warband led by few Fallen. With all Dark Angels being scheming, manipulative liars and Fallen being known demagogues on top of that, it's possible for them to convince other Chaos Marines to follow them and serve at unwilling tools, while making them think they are dedicated chaos worshippers. Cypher does it all the time.

My (yet to be started) idea of Fallen army includes Fallen Lord, squad of Fallen Chosen, and army of Sons of Horus whom Lord convinced it's better to follow him and worship memory of true Warmaster then go with "usurping upstart" Abaddon.


EDIT:

Idea that Fallen are in fact loyalist and Dark Angels Chapter is descended from traitors is fun, but does not fit with backgroung pieces describing itterogation of captured Falen: some Fallen are ashamed by their moment of weakness and repent eagerly, some defiantly claim Luther was right, but none says it was them who was loyal. Hunt for the Fallen does look more like silencing witnesses then seeking repantence, and no other chapter whose members turn to chaos (happens all the time according to new chaos codex) takes so much effort to hunt renegades down, but's it's case of Dark Angels thinking they are special because their legion was number one.


The Dark Angels that followed Lion were loyalist: after all, Horus allowed Emperor to teleport on his battle barge only because Dark Angels and Space Wolves fleets were about to arrive and lift Siedge of Emperor's Palace. There might be loyalist on Caliban, but there were no traitors in Lion's fleet. Luther has been buffed by Chaos powers so that he might fiight Lion as equal, and fight he did. So there were traitors, and they were Luthor's followers.



Except Lion is asleep in heart of the Rock... But there is still possibility that whatever Cypher is doing, he's doing it at Lion's last orders.


We are told all this.
It could be a lie, if they are the traitors (which i don't think they are, and don't want them to be as such, but there is evidence to suggest), they Would say the Lion is at the heart of the rock, otherwise people may think well where is he, and the Cypher link could answer that question.
The Lion is on the run/wandering/whatever he is doing as Cypher, with the real loyalists showing up after him, as they want to help him.
So the traitors (pretending to be loyal) say he is evil, and that the lion is really at the rock.

And as for them interrogating the truth out of these "Fallen" they may say 'we are the loyalists! You betrayed us all' etc but the fact is hidden by the traitors who say 'yeah they confessed to it all' etc...



Now i don't think this is correct.
I'm of the viewpoint that the Lion is in the Rock, and the fallen are the traitors, and we are slowly wiping them out.
But i'm just saying this 'evidence' could be fabricated to make us think this, or anything like that. No one knows, and we may never find out the truth.

Sir_Turalyon
05-07-2008, 20:51
It could be a lie, if they are the traitors (which i don't think they are, and don't want them to be as such, but there is evidence to suggest), they Would say the Lion is at the heart of the rock

They can't say it because they don't know it. Only Emperor (and omniscient narrator of codex:Angels of Death) know what happened to Lion. While most post 3rd edition backgroung is presented as speculation, Lion sleeping in the Rock is fact.


And as for them interrogating the truth out of these "Fallen" they may say 'we are the loyalists! You betrayed us all' etc but the fact is hidden by the traitors who say 'yeah they confessed to it all' etc...

There are pieces of fluff actualy describing itterogations in Codex: Angels of Death and 3rd edition chaos codex. Again, these pieces are not presented from Dark Angel's point of view, but neutral observant's.

Oh, and Fallen are Dark Angels, just like 13th company is still Space Wolves - or Emperor's Children are still Emperor's Children. They are not members of Dark Angels Chapter, but they are members of Dark Angels Legion, part of legion that has not been yet split into chapters.

MALICIOUS LOGIC
05-07-2008, 21:08
From a modeling point of view you might want to use old power armor. Mark V power armor is the "Heresy Suit". I'm not sure what the early Dark Angles were equiped with before the split of the Fallen.

Of course, you can always use later versions of the Power Armor, such as Mark VII, and say that they "aquired" them from an Imperial armory.

~Logic

HsojVvad
05-07-2008, 21:48
Of course they "aquired it some how" so they can be kept up to date. Don't forget they were displaced in time.

They could have gone 1000 years into the past, or 1000 years into the future. Who knows.

When they were transplanted into the past, their equipment would have deteriorated, and would need new armour.

RazielZian
06-07-2008, 03:14
Actually its luthor that is kept in the rock, not lion, nobody knows where lion is currently at.

Unamed Consript
06-07-2008, 03:24
Actually its luthor that is kept in the rock, not lion, nobody knows where lion is currently at.



Whoa whoa whoa whoa.......where did you read that. cause im almost positive that The Lion is in there.....

Slaaneshi Slave
06-07-2008, 03:41
Definitely Luther, as each Chapter Master wakes him once to attempt to force a confession out of him. Codex : Angels of Death.

Unamed Consript
06-07-2008, 03:47
awwwww......thats depressing. I was taking pride in the fact that my chapter had one of the few alive-for-sure primarchs. Let alone won that may have returned.

Azrael is the keeper of the secrets, so should'nt he know? He does know about the fallen and their actual identety im sure......

I hate it when games workshop is vague about important stuff like this....

Slaaneshi Slave
06-07-2008, 03:53
It was suggested that he is in stasis in the rock somewhere too, but that the Dark Angels have no idea about it. It is said that the Watchers (those little guys who like to carry helmets) are his wardens.

Unamed Consript
06-07-2008, 04:03
It was suggested that he is in stasis in the rock somewhere too, but that the Dark Angels have no idea about it. It is said that the Watchers (those little guys who like to carry helmets) are his wardens.



Yeah i knew about the watchers and stuff, but both luthor and El'Johnson are in the rock?

Games workshop said that the Fallen are indeed the traitors, then they said that The Fallen may be the actual loyalists. Why are they contradicting themselves?

Lastly, since The Fallen are scattered throughout time, then it is impossible for them all to be killed cause there is no time machines. Could some of The Fallen have gone back in time 10000 years and started the tension between The Lion and Luthor? Cause i think that would be dumb, but something gw might do.

Col. Tartleton
06-07-2008, 04:27
If I was doing this, I'd build a extremely tooled out lord (mark of khorne to show his skill in battle) with TL bolter, PP, and PW. Then a 10 man mark of khorne chosen squad with a PG, 3 PW, and sergeant with another one. The rest would be armed with a mix of Pre heresy bolters and BPs and chain swords. Really fancy looking, the lot of them. With the Mk4 armor and lots of cool trophies and stuff to make them look more hard core.

Then the rest of the army would be a bunch of non demonic renegades with mark of Chaos glory for the benefits. Modeled as normal marines, nothing too grisly maybe a few with major augmentations as if they removed mutated parts.

Make them a lost company from some random chapter. Heck, make the the long lost 5th company of the Blood Ravens (who may or may not of gone traitor, the chapter doesn't know) Make a sorcerer as a Librarian. Make it all WYSIWYG and go with it. It'd be sick and just say they're vigilante renegades who are fighting chaos and Xenos, but are occasionally attacked by Imperials. It'd all work out.

Heck, add Ahriman to it and some T-sons and make it a weird twist of fate, that Ahriman convinced them that they're former T-sons and to go along with him. The Fallen are just aiding him in his quest for knowledge, because they want to know what has become of the Lion and he said it would be recorded in the BL. Make them all misunderstood rebels, try to paint Ahriman in a good light (I like him even if he is as scheming and underhanding as the DA which is why they work for him.)

Sir_Turalyon
06-07-2008, 11:19
Luthor is being held prisoner by Dark Angels in the Rock, which is secret known only to chapter's Supreme Grand Master. Lion is sleeping even deeper in the Rock, healing his wound from duel with Luthor, being taken care of by Watchers in the Dark. No Dark Angels know of that, but Emperor somehow does.



From a modeling point of view you might want to use old power armor. Mark V power armor is the "Heresy Suit". I'm not sure what the early Dark Angles were equiped with before the split of the Fallen.


I'd even say Mark II, III and IV. Mark V was simple, fast to produce armour used to replace battle damaged suits. Fallen have never left Caliban to take part in war, so there was little point in sending them spare suits needed for marines who actually fought.

Yayale
06-07-2008, 18:01
Of course they "aquired it some how" so they can be kept up to date. Don't forget they were displaced in time.

They could have gone 1000 years into the past, or 1000 years into the future. Who knows.

When they were transplanted into the past, their equipment would have deteriorated, and would need new armour.

ok power armor deteriorating? :wtf:
Havn't you read any space marine fluff at all? Most space marine equiptment is thousands of years old, the space marine maintains his equiptment and it is usually repaired as since the HH they lost most the technology and for some reason that means that the armour they learnt to reproduce takes them a long time to make. I guess they don't want to many people knowing the secrets of it who knows.

Also I think I will re read the DA codex because I swear that lion only took the fully changed marines because he thought the others couldn't cope with chaos.

Ddraiglais
06-07-2008, 18:55
I would use the Chaos dex but exclude any of the obvious Chaos stuff (like daemons and marks/icons). If you wanted to use the SM or DA dex, you'd have to make sure and cut out any post Heresy weapons and hard to maintain weapons (thunderhawks, whirlwinds, assault cannons, etc).


Its also unknown if Lord Cypher is loyalist of Traitor.

Jervis Johnson did an interview not too long ago. He was pretty adament that Cypher is a good guy and has not turned to Chaos.

RazielZian
06-07-2008, 19:39
Jervis Johnson did an interview not too long ago. He was pretty adament that Cypher is a good guy and has not turned to Chaos.


Heh didn't catch that one :cries:

That will confuse things then since in the last DA dex Cypher leads a unit of fallen... does that mean that they truely are the loyalist ones?

Might be fun to do a second DA army led by cypher instead of the grand master...

Hmm you've got em planning now... :angel:

Unamed Consript
06-07-2008, 20:34
just because the fallen are not traitors and indeed good guys, doesnt mean that all of the other DA marines now are traitors. They can both be good guys

Slaaneshi Slave
06-07-2008, 20:51
Just because some fallen are good guys, does not mean they all are. They could have had a change of heart after the event.

Unamed Consript
06-07-2008, 21:03
o yeah, good point....

downundercadet07
06-07-2008, 21:39
Heh didn't catch that one :cries:

That will confuse things then since in the last DA dex Cypher leads a unit of fallen... does that mean that they truely are the loyalist ones?

Might be fun to do a second DA army led by cypher instead of the grand master...

Hmm you've got em planning now... :angel:

Awwww, you missed it, it was a good one, and made my man crush on Jervis somewhat more acute. He compared Cypher to the High Plains Drifter, if you are up on your Eastwood. I could see The Outlaw Josie Wales working too- although not as well. It works especially well for Cypher as he has sort of transcended the current biases and conflicts, due to his immense age. Just that knowledge and worldview are enough to put him in conflict with most of the Imperium- the fact that he is one of the most notorious insurrectionists in the 10000 year history of the Imperium compounds that a bit.

I have my own theory about Cy that I'll snip into the bottom of this- but I can't back it up, it is just something I think.

My 'ravenwing' army is actually either fallen or preheresy DA due to the paint scheme, and the background. It works OK, since it is a small model count army, but even with Cypher in attendance, I doubt that the fallen ever congregate in numbers larger than a dozen.

With that in mind- I would just have a regular CSM army and then four or five robed aspiring champions that count as fallen. I doubt they would form up in one unit- they seem more solitary than that.

Anyway- I would do something like this

HQ-
Fallen #100 (Cypher)
Chaos Lord, Mark of Tzeetch, Death Screamer, Plasma Pistol, Bike, Melta Bombs-- 195

I would model him with two elaborate looking pistols that count as the death screamer and Plasma pistol. If your group was cool- consider bumping him up to BS 10 and giving him the Vindicare targetting rules but bump the cost up sixty points or so. He's one of the most lethal gunslingers in the universe and the CC orientation of the game, especially for characters makes this hard to depict.

Fallen #4145
Chaos Sorcerer, Mark of Tzeetch, Bike, Warptime, Wind of Chaos, force weapon, bolt pistol

No demonic mounts or jump packs- I imagine that they might still view jump packs with suspicion, and would generally reject the more Chaosy type things- although the psykers among them would have embraced more destructive magics.

Then just model a few of the champs with fallen details.



Some of you may be aquainted with my theory that cypher was the sword-bearer for the Lion. If you aren't I'll gloss my theory before I get to my question:

Cypher was a sword bearer, who followed around the Lion like a bodyguard, and also acted as an ambulatory scabbard. Since he was burdened by the primarch's weapon, he did not carry a blade of his own, rather he opted for matched pistols. Since he was the bodyguard of the Lion, he would have been present when during the final conflict between Luther and the Lion. Ergo, he is one of only four people in the galaxy who know the exact truth of the Dark Angel's secret. Coincidentally, he is the only one of the four who isn't a vegetable, or a raving lunatic. Since he could clear up the uncertainty that lies at the root of the Dark Angel's heresy, he is viewed as unusually important by both the fallen and the unforgiven.

Now-- onto my theory. I'll do it in bullet form, so it is easier to follow my ravings um, I mean points...

-- It is insinuated that Cypher was not a true Space Marine, but rather a techno-barbarian or proto-space marine, one a large number of these primitive warriors that formed the first legion

-- This means that Cypher would have a longer time of service to the Emperor than nearly any other Dark Angel, including Luther and the Lion.

-- Cypher's early background is not known, aside from the fact that he took part in the the battles immediately preceding the rediscovery of the primarchs

-- This lack of background, and the Emperor's personal assignment of Cypher to a high-ranking, bodyguard esque position in the retinue of his first-discovered 'son' indicates that Cypher and the Emperor had some kind of personal relationship

-- Cypher is described as having many qualities similar to that of the Sensei: especially his phenomenal leadership abilites, immortality (although this can also be attributed to warp exposure and Space Marine constitution) and strange good fortune

-- My observations lead me to believe that Cypher is in fact, a Sensei himself, one of the Emperor's biological sons. Not grandson, great, great, great great, nephew, or modified clone, but a flesh and blood son, perhaps the last one which the Emperor sired before beginning work on the Primarchs and launching the great crusade.

-- Cypher would have fought at his father's side during the reclaiming of Terra, and when the task of protecting one of the Emperor's 'younger' sons came up, who better than an actual son of the emperor?

-- This would explain Cypher's fanatically frenetic activities. Imagine being unable to help your younger brother stop your father's death, and then being unable to stop your younger brother from being paralyzed by your best friend. His need to atone for these failures is maniacal, he has possibly the most severe case of survivor's guilt in the history of the galaxy.

-- Cypher's powers of evasion and persuasion are a result of his close connection to the emperor. He is able to commune with the Emperor in a way no non-biologically related entity can. The power of the star child whisks him away from danger, and gives him a supernatural resilience

studderigdave
06-07-2008, 23:22
i have a few fallen units i use with my deathguard, maunly just to paint something else. my scheme is black armor with red edging and yellow iconography. so far i have a termie lord, 10 cseon, and a dred. i also made 3 obliterators. i made a seprate 1500 points falen based list that has fallen veterans leading renegade CSM's and such, but i wont use vehicles besides the dred.

Unamed Consript
07-07-2008, 01:30
does the fallen cypher have any connection with the Lord Cypher from Lion El'Jonson's knightly Order? Or is it just coincidence?

Champsguy
07-07-2008, 02:31
1) No one knows if Cypher has any connection to the Lord Cypher from the Order on Caliban. We are obviously meant to think there is a connection.

2) No one knows exactly what happened, or who turned, in the battle on Caliban. For a long time, the story was well accepted that the Fallen turned to Chaos and the Dark Angels remained loyal. Then "Angels of Darkness" was published and a Fallen tries to switch the story around. Since then, the official GW position has been clouded a bit. While the Codex indicates that the DA are still the good guys, there are hints that the Fallen might be the heroes after all. About 90% of the fluff, however, still points to the guys who currently run around screaming "For the Emperor!" as being the ones who stayed loyal during the Horus Heresy.

3) Lion El'Jonson is supposed to be located deep in some unreachable underground chamber in the Rock, but none of the Dark Angels know it. The only ones who know he is there are the Jawas and the Emperor (in that way that the Emperor is supposed to know everything). The Dark Angels are going to feel really stupid when the Lion wakes up and it turns out he was just behind the bookcase or something.

4) Cypher is not a normal Chaos Marine. He's pretty clearly a good guy, but the Dark Angels are too blinded by their "hunt the Fallen" crap to realize it. He's based heavily on the character from "High Plains Drifter". Some say he is Lion El'Jonson, but that can't be the case because the Lion is in the Rock.

SPOILERS

Don't read any further unless you want High Plains Drifter (a fantastic movie) spoiled for you

SPOILERS
















At the end of the film, you discover that Eastwood's character is actually the ghost of the town's previous sheriff, who was murdered in cold blood and thrown into an unmarked grave by a small band of outlaws hired by some of the local townspeople. He returns a year after the murder and proceeds to kill the men responsible (and rape the one woman who had a hand in it). He is not a nice guy. The movie ends with the town in flames, the bandits and half the townsfolk dead. He then literally fades away as he rides into the sunset, as one of the few good men in town erects a grave marker over the location where the sheriff's body was buried.

Cypher is supposedly based upon this character. So... whose ghost could he be? What murdered man lies buried deep underground in an unmarked grave?

Slaaneshi Slave
07-07-2008, 02:39
Cypher sounds remarkably like the protaganist in The Gunslinger too.

Polonius
07-07-2008, 02:45
To the OP:

Fluff is a tool, not a straight Jacket. The fallen exist, they exist in some numbers. Would 30-50 ever appear together? Sure! Would they have tanks? Well, I'd imagine that many Marines can steal whatever they want.

There are very few things that the 40k universe fluff sets up as impossible: psychic tau, independent tyranids, fallen Grey Knights, Female Codex Space Marines (although chaotic or counts as marines are more than possible, IMO). Outside of those few things, the rest is a guideline for what "normally happens." Sure, Saim Hain normally uses a lot of bikes and Vypers, but they have War Walkers and Wraithguard too.

As for the question of wether or not the fallen are chaotic or loyal, make that your own. If you want Chaotic Fallen, do it! If you want Fallen that secretly fight for the Emperor while hiding, do that.

Finally, use whatever codex plays the way you think Fallen would fight. My buddy built his fallen as old Chaos Alpha legion (lots of infiltrators). With the current CSM book, chosen and squads with chaos glory are a decent start, but feel free to include whatever units you want to. Fallen assault squads probably didn't use a lot of jump packs (they were rare in the HH), so have them represented with Berzerkers. Or maybe your fallen are dead shots, make them Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters.

Alternatively, you can use them as BTs (with either new recruits as neophytes, or demons, or even pre-founding members of the Order that never fully bulked up because they were implanted too late), DA, or standard Marines. Heck, using BA could be fun: Cypher as Mephiston, His retinue and lt would be a chappy with death company. Add Veteran Assault marines in rhinos and tac squads/devs, it'd be a fun list if nothing else.

downundercadet07
07-07-2008, 04:00
Cypher sounds remarkably like the protaganist in The Gunslinger too.

I've thought that before as well. Then again, Roland and Cypher were both distilled from the same characters- so they are pretty closely related.

Unamed Consript
07-07-2008, 05:56
what ive drawn from this thread: All dark angels are good guys. (put emphasis on the period)

Ddraiglais
07-07-2008, 07:23
Not really. The fluff I remember from the Fallen Angels is that some repent (and are killed). Some FA repent and fight for the Imperium while avoiding the DA. Some FA retire and try to live normal lives on backwater worlds. Some of them go merc. Lastly some FA have gone over fully to Chaos. I don't know which ones you'd consider good or bad, but some of those wouldn't fall into the realm of being the "good guys".

RazielZian
07-07-2008, 11:03
I dunno from their relative perspective they may see the imperium as the 'root of all evil' which isn't atually too far from the truth, (gotta love himan nature).

So from the perspective of those who go over to chaos, that may seem like the only option to fight the evils they see in the imperium... of course, theres no accounting for stupidity.

Slaaneshi Slave
07-07-2008, 12:57
It is shown in the Soul Drinkers books how easy it is to fall to Chaos whilst still fighting the 'good fight' and without even changing what you believe in.

skank
07-07-2008, 14:13
I think the Deathwing are a true chaos cult:angel:, they worship their possesed leader in the rock and the other DA are their pawns (till they are ready to be initiated).
They work to destabilise the emperium from within and seek out the fallen who know their secret.

RazielZian
07-07-2008, 17:50
Ok I dunno if this is a good thing or not, but I went to the hobby store today to get some more paint (again) and lo what do I find..... CYPHER!!!!

*Ahem* so I now have a new character in my army.... *ebil laugh*

Unamed Consript
07-07-2008, 18:35
yes but they put him under the "chaos section"......

RazielZian
07-07-2008, 18:40
No, they had him under the SM section... but their sorting isn't soo great so that doesn't mean anything...

The next question is to paint him pre-HH like on the cover of DoA or to paint him with more upto date colours... since thats whats referenced in the DA dex...

Slaaneshi Slave
07-07-2008, 19:56
Cypher would not be wearing green, since at the time he was a member of the legion they wore black. Therefore he should be in black.

RazielZian
07-07-2008, 20:45
Cypher would not be wearing green, since at the time he was a member of the legion they wore black. Therefore he should be in black.

Taken from the latest DA dex, page 12:

Cypher rarely speaks, and no one nows his real name.
However, the occasional glimpse of the dark green power armour beneath his long robes means that there can be no doubt that Cypher is in some manner connected to the Dark Angels.

Yayale
07-07-2008, 21:09
OK I come back after re-reading the DA codex and I shall give you quotes, most of what I already said was accurate. However I have not read HH Fallen Angels as I need money to buy the series I ony have three of them. GW is always altering things as it is different people with different points of view writing all the fluff.

"Those knights who where still young enough had the legion's gene-seed implanted within them, transforming them into mighty Space Marines, warriors fit to serve the emperor's armies. Those too old for this process underwent transformative surgery, and while they would never be as strong or fast as a Space Marine, they would nonetheless be counted amongst the elite warriors of the imperium. The first to be brought to the legion in this manner was Luthor, who became Jonson's second in command." [Dark Angels Codex P8.]

Ok a was a little bit off saying that the fallen were better trained imperial gaurd but they were not fully Space Marines, neither was Luther.

"When word reached Jonson and Russ of the titanic battle being fought at Terra, the two generals marshalled their forces and set course for Terra with all haste. The journey took many weeks, for the Space Marines were assailed by the Daemons of the warp, and delayed fighting further outbreaks of rebellion. After weeks of warp travel, the fleet arrived at Terra, but the Primarchs found to their horror that they were too late." [Dark Angels Codex P8.]

So the Dark angels are not heretic, once they found out about Horus's attack on the emperor they returned as quickly as they could.

"The betrayal Jonson discovered shook him to his very core. Over the decades since Jonson had departed Caliban, Luther had brooded, nurturing deep within his soul the seed ofbitter jelousy. His hatred had spread, poisoning not only those under his command, but an entire generation of new recruits. He had projected his bitterness onto every man in his care. His powerful oratory had twisted them with all-consuming hatred of those they believed had stolen their glory and left them nothing more than caretakers. Like Horus and the other traitors, Luthor had been corrupted by the insidious lure of Chaos. His pride and conceit had been all the Dark Gods needed to make him their own." [Dark Angels Codex P8.]

So the fallen are infact chaos, possibly not all of them though as it only mentions Luther being corrupted by chaos, but it is bound to a affected other members at the top who were close to Luther.

"Noz the Dark Angels found that their home world, and their own bretheren, had been corrupted and turned against them." [Dark Angels Codex P9.

It doesn't say whether they were just corrupted by Luther or Chaos aswell.

"Even though the Primarch possessed superhuman powers, the two opponents were equally matched, for Luthers already considerable abilities had been enhanced by the gifts of the Dark Gods of Chaos." [Dark Angels Codex P9.]

Again highlighting the fact that the fallen were not superhuman only enhanced and that Luther was definatly chaos.

"A warp storm of unprededented fury engulfed Caliban. In an uncontrollable, swirling flood of psychic energy the warp rushed into the physical universe. Those "fallen" Dark Angels who had served under Luther and his clandestine masters were sucked from teh face of Caliban into the warp and cast throughout space and time." [Dark Angles Codex P9.]

So the fallen were scattered through space and time, that would lead you to believe that it would make it impossible for them to group together to form warbands to follow chaos or whatever.

"Of the mighty Primarch, Lion El' Jonson, there was no sighn."[Dark Angels Codex P9.]

So theres no sighn of him on the rock when the Dark angels went down to the planet, so how is he being kept deep within the rock healing?

"After the fall of Caliban, then senior members of the Legion assembled in a secret conclave. They decreed that the knowledge of the fall of their brothers must remain undisclosed for all time; that no outsider must ever learn of the schism that had split the Legion or that space marines of the Dark Angels had turned to the ruinous powers. Should this truth ever become known, they feared, the Dark Angels would be reviled as traitors."[Dark Angels Codex P11.]

So they are not hunting the fallen because the fallen are the loyal ones and the Dark Angels the traitors, it's because they do not want anyone to know that members of their chapter turned to chaos as it could result in them being destroyed as heretics.

"If the traitors could be tracked down and made to repent, then the sins of the entire legion might one day be absolved, washed away by the blood of the fallen." [Dark Angels Codex P11.]

Again highlighting the point that it was the fallen who turned on the emperor, the Dark Angels wanted to capture them and make them repent.

Well theres even more in there and some of the quotes could of been a bit longer to give those that do not have access to the codex the full story but it is getting a bit long and I can't be bothered lol. So yeh a lot of what has been posted here is a load of rubbish! I would say that there is not really anything out there to represent the fallen, the closest thing I would say is storm troopers as they are slightly more elite than a bog standard imperial guard, you could always make data sheets for apocalypse using a space marines stats toned down a bit.

RazielZian
07-07-2008, 21:33
Yes this is mostly true, however I think your interpertation of parts isn't complete (im not saying wrong, just incomplete).

Firstly fully fledged marines were stationed on the rock on caliban and corrupted, not just the upgraded humans.

Secondly, there was never any doubt that luthor was chaos or that a large number of his followers were also chaos.

Thirdly, who won the war of caliban (I know chaos lost with luthors refusal to fight on), both the fallen and the dark angels at the time were impossible for anyone (except the god-emperor) not a DA to tell apart so which faction won?
Which side kept the DA name and branded the loosers as the Fallen?
It is commonly known that the fallen seen and captured since the fall of caliban are not mutants, and except for their hatred of the DA chapter sppear to be DA themselves (when not in disguise).

These are the true secrets of the DA chapter, so I personally wouldn't say that anyone shouldn't do a loyalist Fallen army, nor a traitor DA army.

Unamed Consript
07-07-2008, 21:34
that really helps as i have not yet recieved my DA codex. Although i am a little dissipointed that they do not know where The Lion is........

So that means that the DA that we know and love today may be The Fallen impersonating loyalist DA? HOLY CRAP!!!!

Yayale
07-07-2008, 21:36
sorry yeh I forgot bout the new marines being trained that were also corrupted. It does say in the codex that the lions were the dark angels er il just find it in a sec.

Yayale
07-07-2008, 21:43
"It was as if a veil was lifted from Luther's eyes and he realised teh full extent of what he had done. His was a triple betrayal: of his friend, of the Dark Angels, and of the Emperor. The truth shattered his sanity and he slumped down beside Jonson, his will to fight lost."[Dark Angels Codex P9.]

Ok so that tells us that it was definitely Luther and his men who were the corrupted ones and im sure theres a quote somewhere bout them being the fallen.

"Those 'fallen' Dark Angels who had served under Luther." [Dark Angels Codex P9.]

I think I already quoted that but yeah so the fallen are the marines and other people left behind under Luther's command.

RazielZian
07-07-2008, 22:09
Yes and no, yes being that the chaos DA under luthors command WERE in fact fallen DA, in the same way that you get fallen Ultra, etc, however the Fallen as they are known today is a different story all together, remember that history is written by the victor and that ONLY the current DA call the Fallen fallen.

The point that im trying to make is that at no point does it say that DA/Fallen are either loyalist ot traitor, in previous editions, articles, etc, both have been guessed at, the closest being in 3rd edition when the fallen were listed under CSM, but we now know that not all of the Fallen are chaos.

All im saying is... isn't it possible for the fallen to actually be loyalist?

Heck to bring back the soul drinkers example, they are loyalist (to the emperor at least) yet they are classed as traitors much the same as the Fallen are.

Sir_Turalyon
07-07-2008, 23:41
All im saying is... isn't it possible for the fallen to actually be loyalist?

Sure it's possible.

Some of Dark Angels who stayed on Caliban were corrupted by chaos, Luther included. Chapter Dark Angels call all who stayed on Caliban "Fallen", and believe all of them to be corrupted. Some truly are, some renounced Luther's teachings and tried to repent, some might even been loyalist all the time, or at least believe themselves to be loyalist. Dark Angels care not, to them all Fallen are corrupted.

Cypher is good example of loyalist Fallen, not only he has ATSKNF, but special rule that grants it to him is called "Space Marine". Brother Galotha from 3rd edition CSM codex sounds like loyalist, too.

Unamed Consript
08-07-2008, 00:49
if there was no sighn of El'Jonson after the battle on caliban, but luther was found in the rock, then that must mean that the corrupted Angels were victorious and all of the loyalists were sucked up into the warp storm and dispersded through time. Not the other way around. That would explain why the DA want to kill the fallen and also why luther is in the rock, not El'Jonson.

The only problem witht this theory is, Why wouldnt the DA now just resurect their leader from the rock and turn to chaos?
Unless they plan on killing the fallen then revealing their true alliance.....

HsojVvad
08-07-2008, 01:14
Quite an interesting read here. I reread my DA codex. After saying that there was no sign of the Lion himself it seems that he "vanished" like the Fallen.

Was he displaced in time and space? That is my guess, the last will of the Pissed Off Chaos Gods. OR was we displaced in space and time because he was a Fallen as well? I don't believe that, because if he was, why would he come to "forgive" Luther?

Come to think of it, he mysteriously disapears, and Cypher reapears. That would be funny if Cypher was non other than the Lion. Maybe Cyper is the Lion with amnisa, the Lion lost all memory of himself and is being called to the Emperor somehow? That would explain why DA would stop at NOTHING to get Cypher.

This is one of the reasons why I love DA so much. So much mystery to them.

Darn I can't find my old chaos codex. Was Cypher in there?

absolon
08-07-2008, 01:28
"Was he displaced in time and space? That is my guess, the last will of the Pissed Off Chaos Gods. OR was we displaced in space and time because he was a Fallen as well? I don't believe that, because if he was, why would he come to "forgive" Luther?"

The problem is page 14 of Codex Angels of Death clearly states the Lion is in an unreachable chamber at the heart of the rock

Unamed Consript
08-07-2008, 03:00
As i said before, I HATE it when gw contradicts themselves!!!!

Have they tried to reach him? Cause if i were them then i would stop at NOTHING to reach him.

Fallen DA
08-07-2008, 09:24
I have a Fallen/Pre-Heresy DA Army. I decided to keep it flexible because there is so much fluff. I therefore decided to base it on a Pre-Heresy Army first off using the DA Codex. As to my mind that's the formation it would of followed if/when it had turned. I decided to do an Army at Company strength, and wanted to include Vehicles, early Ravenwing, and as much MKIV armour as poss. I fluff this by saying that it's was a Company away on Patrol or sent to re-enforce the front by way of explaining it's complete formation. And that it was not present at the time of the fall of Caliban. This allows me fluff this particular Army as Loyalist Fallen. which is my preference, but I have a couple of discreet models in the Army which allows me to choose. Depends on the game being played. I can slot into various rolls. I have pics posted in the gallery. under Pre-Heresy (Fallen) Dark Angels. I like some of the things I've read here and will be interested to see which way GW take this.

ankara halla
08-07-2008, 09:45
As i said before, I HATE it when gw contradicts themselves!!!!

Have they tried to reach him? Cause if i were them then i would stop at NOTHING to reach him.


There is no contradiction here, the old fluff was written from a "god" perspective, giving the reader full understanding of what had happened. The DA do not know the fate of their Primarch even though the reader does. It is not contradicotry to the story itself that GW changed the way they write fluff.

RazielZian
08-07-2008, 12:08
Heh thats the point I was trying to make earlier, from the perspective of the 40K universe the DA may seem to be good guys (even if their methods are questionable), yet they may not actually be...
Im not saying they are chaos, im just saying that there is a possabiity that they are not loyalist, there are after all more than 2 sides to the conflict of humanity.

Yayale
08-07-2008, 16:06
It doesn't come accross properly in these quotes I don't think but if you actually read the background info in the codex to me it seems clear that the fallen are the ones who were under Luthers command, im not saying they were all twisted by chaos but some were.

As to them finding Luther which could mean it was the fallen that one in short baisically DA mount an attack on the cathederal Luther and Lion duel, Lion could have slain Luther but hesitated and Luther used psychic powers to mortally wound lion. Luther realsies what hes done, chaos gods here he psychic scream no they lost so they rip apart the planet only the cathederal is left due to force fields. Fallen caste throughout space and time. DA come down from their ships (the dark angels arriveed by ships it does not mention the fallen having ships they defended with lasers) and found only Luther.

HsojVvad
09-07-2008, 00:23
"Was he displaced in time and space? That is my guess, the last will of the Pissed Off Chaos Gods. OR was we displaced in space and time because he was a Fallen as well? I don't believe that, because if he was, why would he come to "forgive" Luther?"

The problem is page 14 of Codex Angels of Death clearly states the Lion is in an unreachable chamber at the heart of the rock

But we have to go by the latest codex now, do we not? Angels of Death is before my time when I got into 40K so I never got to see it.

It's like in the Tyranid codex. The Tyranids destroyed the Squats, and the Imperium destroyed the Zoats. Saying that the Lion was in an unreachable chamber at the heart of the rock is like we can have Squats now or Zoats now because they were in a previous codex. I can be wrong, but this is how I see it.

Slaaneshi Slave
09-07-2008, 00:45
I can be wrong, but this is how I see it.

You are wrong.

If nothing is said to the contrary (and sometimes then too) then anything in older books is still valid.

HsojVvad
09-07-2008, 00:48
You are wrong.

If nothing is said to the contrary (and sometimes then too) then anything in older books is still valid.

Then why does it say NOBODY knows where the Lion is? It dosn't say nodbody knows except for Blah Blah Blah. That tells me he has disappeared into this new fiction for Cypher.

Slaaneshi Slave
09-07-2008, 01:03
Because the book is written from the Dark Angels perspective. If a bunch of mute guys who do not communicate in any way and the Emperor are the only witnesses, then from the Dark Angels point of view, nobody knows where he is.

Unamed Consript
09-07-2008, 03:07
oooo that makes sense now. I didint relize that gw changed thye perspective.

Cant the Emperor speak through the mind? Cause i thought he could, making him able to tell the DA where exactly he is, which is the part that has been confusing me.

Ghost Of Caliban
09-07-2008, 08:03
ok I haven't read the dark angles codex in a while but I do remember that the fallen were scattered through out time which would make an army of them gathering very difficult. Im pretty certain aswell but don't hold me to this that the fallen were not genetically modified, they were basically imperial guard but better trained and equipped. Also the fallen deffinatly could not be considered the loyal ones as they were convinced to turn against the Dark Angels because of the guy in charge of them being peed off that the chapter master only wanted the space marines to go on a certain mission because he didn't think the unaltered ones were up to it.

No sorry.
The fallen are the origional terran DA who came with the emperor AND the older and less able of the original calibanites who made up the order.

TheOverlord
09-07-2008, 08:34
I would see them as basic Dark Angels modelled out laying out flat on the ground.

... You know... Fallen Dark Angels.

*badum bish*

RazielZian
09-07-2008, 11:55
Ohh kay.... well... *ahem*

Either way, its decided... im making a loyalist Fallen army....

It has been 10,000 years and since chaos didn't ahve a firm hold on them im simply going to say that my Fallen have truned back to the emperor, and ehile they are still hunted, they act in him name only. (Kinda like the Soul Drinkers).

This will also allow me to take a whole army of the blighters.

Hmm... come to think of it... the guy I play most had a DA army... EEP :eek:

Slaaneshi Slave
09-07-2008, 11:59
oooo that makes sense now. I didint relize that gw changed thye perspective.

Cant the Emperor speak through the mind? Cause i thought he could, making him able to tell the DA where exactly he is, which is the part that has been confusing me.

The Emperor is a vegetable. He isn't telling anybody anything. The small part of his mind which is left is shattered and insane. He has the worst case of split personalities the galaxy has ever seen, with parts of his mind working towards his goals, parts working against them, and the rest singing a happy dance with the pixxies on the purple mushrooms.

Yayale
09-07-2008, 15:27
Because the book is written from the Dark Angels perspective. If a bunch of mute guys who do not communicate in any way and the Emperor are the only witnesses, then from the Dark Angels point of view, nobody knows where he is.

Have you actually read the book? It is written like a story following events, it is not written from anyones perspective, it is not an excerpt from a DA book or teachings written by the DA it is a factual piece written by games workshop telling you what actually happened.


The Emperor is a vegetable. He isn't telling anybody anything. The small part of his mind which is left is shattered and insane. He has the worst case of split personalities the galaxy has ever seen, with parts of his mind working towards his goals, parts working against them, and the rest singing a happy dance with the pixxies on the purple mushrooms.

Could be wrong but im sure theres fluff saying that he could communicate with some people, i know that there is a group of people (can't remember what they are called) who are the voice of the emperor and he is instructing them, but they are all meant to be corrupt and twist things to benefit them.

Unamed Consript
09-07-2008, 18:07
They should just kill him. He'll come back anyway, so it doesnt really matter.

Well......maybe it would......If this emperor died, then the new one wouldnt retain the memories, would he?

If he didnt then many great mysteries woiuld be left unsolved.

Slaaneshi Slave
09-07-2008, 18:09
Have you actually read the book? It is written like a story following events, it is not written from anyones perspective, it is not an excerpt from a DA book or teachings written by the DA it is a factual piece written by games workshop telling you what actually happened.

I've read more than just the current DA book. :rolleyes:


ould be wrong but im sure theres fluff saying that he could communicate with some people, i know that there is a group of people (can't remember what they are called) who are the voice of the emperor and he is instructing them, but they are all meant to be corrupt and twist things to benefit them.

The High Lords of Terra are the voice of the Emperor, but he doesn't communicate with them. He could communicate very briefly after his inprisonment, but now his mind is too shattered.

Emperor's Grace
09-07-2008, 19:22
Cant the Emperor speak through the mind? Cause i thought he could, making him able to tell the DA where exactly he is, which is the part that has been confusing me.

This also assumes that he wants to tell the DA where his son is...


Could be wrong but im sure theres fluff saying that he could communicate with some people,


He could communicate very briefly after his inprisonment, but now his mind is too shattered.

What SS says is true. He spoke directly after interment but over the years he got less and less chatty. He hasn't spoken directly to anyone (that we know of) for years...


i know that there is a group of people (can't remember what they are called) who are the voice of the emperor and he is instructing them, but they are all meant to be corrupt and twist things to benefit them.

I think that you're conflating two ideas here. Cypher (as self-titled "The Voice of the Emperor") was leading a "cult of the Star Child" when the BT caught up with him (BT codex). Whether or not he was actually speaking for the Emperor would be another large (& OffT) debate.


They should just kill him. He'll come back anyway, so it doesnt really matter.

Few are aware that he would return and of those fewer still are certain in what form...

-- Incidentally, shouldn't "Unamed" have two N's?


Regarding Canonicity:

Wasn't there a BL forum quote floating about that said GW basically maintains that all the fluff they've ever produced is valid? Search Fu, Activate! http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105252

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40k universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

Marc Gascoigne
Publisher, The Black Library and Black Flame



My personal take on the DA/Fallen:




Personally, I kind of like the idea that they were all loyal but their paranoia got to them. The loyalists on planet thinking the returning DA were corrupted, the loyalists in the fleet thinking that the planetbound had turned. Might explain the secrecy and guilt. It's a hell of a thing to realize that you initiated a full out civil war over an error or a single rebel's las-bolts. Maybe they're secretly trying to get the truth they wish because they can't handle the real truth that they're faced with?

What if Luther was the ONLY heretic? He could have fired the defenses (or ordered the firing with a cover story). The fallen would then be loyalists following their commander when they got "attacked" by the fleet (which wouldn't attack them unless the fleet had turned, right?)

Think of it as two really paranoid deaf people with pistols in a dark room. A bullet of unknown origin grazes the arm of one. Does he "return" fire at the other person? Or try to ask the other guy what happened (possibly exposing himself to a killshot)? What happens when the fellow who doesn't even know the other guy got grazed starts seeing him running in and shooting?


I think his behavior in "Descent of Angels" (hangar bay scene) would be indicative as well.

Still doesn't preclude him being the only traitor and essentially getting the good guys to follow him with pretty oratory.

<snip>

We can’t use the fact that the fallen were taken into the warp after the Battle of Caliban as proof of heresy. The Primarchs were taken (at “birth”) long before any of them turned and only a portion that were whisked away did turn.

<snip>

I was advancing a theory that both the DA and the Fallen were loyalists, tricked into civil war by a heretic (Luther). This was possible due to a lack of communication with the outside world (hence the deafness in the analogy). The fallen only heard what Luther told them and Luther was undeniably turned.

<snip>

I'm saying that it's possible they suffered a terrible misunderstanding and that they have yet to forgive themselves for it. So for the DA to "prove" that they were right in their actions (and therefore not guilty of the terrible mistake of fratricide on the innocent), they seek to collect and torture the fallen into admitting that they were Chaos.

Now they are trapped in the idea that they "must" prove the Fallen guilty or the torture itself is a further sin.

(and, to stregthen the DA's false belief, some may have actually turned to Chaos in their exile or break and falsely confess under torture)



IIRC, the central theme in HPD is revenge, not redemption.

That, in my scenario, would make Cypher a planetbound loyalist that is seeking vengeance upon the guilty loyalists of the fleet for the sin of fratricide. Perhaps by it's revelation to the one that could truly set their punishment?

HsojVvad
09-07-2008, 22:59
Well when I read the curren DA codex, it didn't seem it was in any perspective at all but just fact. All the old codex seem to be in the Imperium point of view, but not the new DA codex. Not shure if the other codecies are like this as well, the ones that came after DA.

Yayale
10-07-2008, 15:46
The bit from the black library guy saying that bits are myth and legend and all that is because it's not one person writing all of this stuff, I mean you only have to look at the HH books to see where due to bad planning the writers contradict each other and some characters go to a different place in one book than the other. Everything does just need to be taken with a pinch of salt. But thinking bout it we have seriously digressed from teh origional subject bout building a fallen army. I rekon a mix of space marines and imperial guard would best suit it to be honest. I would most likly use DA rules as they were trained as DA and I don't believe most of them were traitors or chaos just a few were who ordered the rest to fire.

Sir_Turalyon
10-07-2008, 17:02
Great find with that BL guy quote: knowing there purposefuly is no such thing a pure, true cannon really helps in strange way. We eighter just choose what fluff we believe in and what we don't (idolized 40k of personal cannons), or accept that some details are purposefuly left unclear and we have no idea what is true (schisophrenic 40k) .

Of course, if all fluff sources agree on something, we may take it as "true" - if every published text on Dark Angels says they were first legion (or say nothing of legion's number), we have reason to assume it's number was one and not five.

Back to the topic - what do we really know about Fall of Caliban?

1. All sources say there was Dark Angels civil war, ended by duel between Luther and Lion, after which Luther was captured and Lion disappeared. We can take this much for truth.

2. All sources say that followers of Luther were scattered through the warp, and followers of Lion formed Unforgiven Chapters. Even through there is no fluff source that contradicts that, some of us choose to believe it was other way around...

3. All sources eighter say Lion sleeps in the Rock, or say nothing about his whereabouts.

4. All sources except possibly Angels of Darkness say followers of Luther were corrupted by Chaos and Lion was loyalist during Heresy.

5. All sources say nobody has idea who Cypher is ... well, Descent of Angels suggests he may be older Zahariel, or some future Lord Cypher of the order (not Lion), and his mini is little short for a Primarch... Of course, someone wanting to believe Cypher is Lion can just choose to ignore 3. and 5...


6. All sources mentioning fallen say they are scattered through space and time, that they are very varied lot, ranging from becoming full Chaos Marines to trying to repent and do something benefitial for humanity. All say they are most often found alone or in small groups. New codex says that some of these groups are so powerful that Deathwing is required. No source says openly that armies of Fallen are impossible. None says about (im)possibility of Fallen gathering in places where Unforgiven cannot track them down (Eye of Terror). So idea of armies of Fallen, ranging from pure chaos marines through renegades to wannabe loyalist is not ruled out.

7. The galaxy is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed... (probably only piece of fluff we can take on token value).

As for representing Fallen on battlefield, there are really many ways; i think only codex you should avoid is Dark Angels ;) , as it covers post-heresy organisation of the Legion. If you want them to be army of renegades or chaos marines, just use codex: chaos. If you want small group leading bigger chaos warband, make group of Fallen chosen in otherwise chaos army. If you want them to be loyalist army, codex: Black Templars has pre-heresy crusading organisation they would follow. If you want them to be badass veteran infrantry loyalist, 13th company is way to go. If you want group of Fallen leading Guard army, you can use Sisters of Battle rules - many Fallen were not Astrates but augumented humans, former knights of the Order, and their stats would be somewhere between battel sister and marine.

Emperor's Grace
10-07-2008, 20:37
If you want them to be loyalist army, codex: Black Templars has pre-heresy crusading organisation they would follow.

Nah. The DA were never zealots in the way the BT are.

Maybe Salamanders with Plasma fixation instead of Melta?


Well when I read the curren DA codex, it didn't seem it was in any perspective at all but just fact. All the old codex seem to be in the Imperium point of view, but not the new DA codex. Not shure if the other codecies are like this as well, the ones that came after DA.

Lack of stated bias does not equal lack of bias, though.

History books are written in a direct/factual style but bias still remains an issue.


if all fluff sources agree on something, we may take it as "true"

Assuming that all the sources are revealing information from independent viewpoints and not regurgitating the same viewpoint in different books.

Almost (excepting AoD) everything we know of the DA is written from an unacknowledged/godlike viewpoint or by the DA themselves. If you read my theory above, the DA have a vested (robed?) interest in maintaining the belief that all Fallen are Chaos/Betrayers, whether they are or not.

I always prefer the Name-Verse (JohnVerse, in my case) solution.

I seem to remember a philosophy/psychology discussion in college that nears this. (Never get cornered by drunken philosophy majors) Basically, it centered on "reality" being the intersection of all our "self-realities" or something akin. Even if we both agree to call something red - it may not be exactly the same red to both of us in our individual experience. As a slightly drunken biochem major I didn't really bother to remember the conversation in detail.

Anyway, it's a bit like the old policeman bit - the actual truth will always be somewhere between the two different stories you're told by the two different people (as each colors their viewpoint - intentionally or not).


All sources eighter say Lion sleeps in the Rock, or say nothing about his whereabouts.

Special aside here: the designer's notes (IIRC) address this directly. They felt they were giving too much away by having it stated directly. So, despite it being stated clearly in prior editions, they removed specific mention of his whereabouts in the new one. Makes it also seem a bit more like the DA's viewpoint of the matter too, I think.

Besides, we all know that he must be on Catachan... "In the jungle, the mighty jungle..." :D

natedogg710
10-07-2008, 21:28
For my fallen DW army I'm going to have the sergeants and master be fallen, while all the other terminators are renegades.

I was originally going to do all fallen, but I realized that fluff wise that would be extremely unlikely. However it's your army so you can do whatever you want.

Edit: Woot! 500th post.

Unamed Consript
11-07-2008, 02:49
As stated above it would be cool to play a fallen and guard mixed army. If it was ok by your oppenents then maybe it would be cool to have a fallen command squad and possibly fallen as guard sargeants.
Maybe like a veteran space marine sergeants of the dark angels. That way hes fearless and has better stats.

PhonelessInAtl
11-07-2008, 05:02
If you want group of Fallen leading Guard army, you can use Sisters of Battle rules - many Fallen were not Astrates but augumented humans, former knights of the Order, and their stats would be somewhere between battel sister and marine.

:cool:Thats awesome, I never would have thought of that. The fun part would be modeling them to be different than a marine.

Sir_Turalyon
11-07-2008, 11:32
Rogue Trader era marines are about the same size as sisters, they wear older Mark 6 armour and use crusade pattern bolters. They appear once in a while on places like eBay, and GW is selling older (and smaller, see how big modern backpacks look at them) scupults in Mark1-Mark 5 armour as "armour throught the ages" collector's set.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1150124&prodId=prod1140240&rootCatGameStyle=

RazielZian
11-07-2008, 22:49
Hehehe Im still set on doing a fallen army with my trusty DA dex, the way I see it (my perspective) is that these fallen are actually loyalist too far removed from the current DA to trust them (after all who outside of the DA 'actually' trusts them) so fight in the emperors name in their own way.

Im going to use the DA dex due to them trying to fit back into what that they see as the imperiums 'mold' for the DA, with the sole exception to the dex is me using Cypher in some battles (where my opponent agrees) otherwise i'll just be using a default character.

HsojVvad
12-07-2008, 14:13
Here is a scenario for The Fallen

http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/fallen-angels/1/

I can't find the link to a converted Fallen model.

Getifa Ubazza
12-07-2008, 14:43
"Those knights who where still young enough had the legion's gene-seed implanted within them, transforming them into mighty Space Marines, warriors fit to serve the emperor's armies. Those too old for this process underwent transformative surgery, and while they would never be as strong or fast as a Space Marine, they would nonetheless be counted amongst the elite warriors of the imperium. The first to be brought to the legion in this manner was Luthor, who became Jonson's second in command." [Dark Angels Codex P8.]

Ok a was a little bit off saying that the fallen were better trained imperial gaurd but they were not fully Space Marines, neither was Luther.

Ok, I understand that Luther is in The Rock, getting his bottom spanked, every few years, But reading the above, i thought about the new Scout Special character would make a rather cool Luther. Just a thought. I also remember that Cypher was an Elite choice, when he was in the Codex and could be used by Chaos or IG. So was thinking, wouldnt he and his squad be better represented as a Veteran Squad in a CSM/SM army and maybe as a Deathwatch squad in an IG army?