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Captain Keen
05-07-2008, 23:12
yes or perhaps?
I'm in confusing doubt, and not sure either too. So can anyone lift some veils? Only serious replies svp, or I must act silly :wtf:

if spears are hand weapons, and they carry other hand weapons as well, do they get the 2 attacks? And can they use shield and spear with the +1 AC to frontal attacks?


:confused:

Reinnon
05-07-2008, 23:16
spears are spears

therefore they are not hand weapons.

Belerophon709
05-07-2008, 23:25
Spears are not considered hand weapons in game terms.
Therefore, they do not benefit from the special rules pertaining to hand weapons, i.e. they do not confer the +1AS bonus when on foot and engaged to the front, nor do they "pair" up with another hand weapon to act as a second hand weapon.

They do, however, benefit from the special rules pertaining to spears, which means that troopers armed with spears can fight in 2 ranks (3 in the case of High Elves) or they can confer a +1S bonus on the charge, when used while mounted.

Captain Keen
05-07-2008, 23:26
hmm... is this an evasive answer? Hahaha... I mean...I think: spears are weapons. They are held in hand(s).. therefore...if I elliminate the impossible; the ill-logical can be true, right? (something mr Holmes or his assistant used to say I think?)

Captain Keen
05-07-2008, 23:28
but if the rules have to say that they must be hand weapons, then I guess it's a no. Hmm.. ok.

theunwantedbeing
05-07-2008, 23:28
Page 54
Spears

Captain Keen
05-07-2008, 23:31
yes, I looked there. But it was unclear in the rules to me if it had to be specifically mentionned yes or no that they were hand weapons, or that they were that all by default.

rob_bot
06-07-2008, 01:32
Hand weapons are weapons that have no other rules than the hand weapon rules. spears have other rules. what's the point?

kroq'gar
06-07-2008, 03:16
A hand weapon is a handweapon, as described. A spear instead has spear rules (mounted & infantry).

Pretty straight forwards. Whats stopping your logic being applied to say, a halberd. Its held in the hands?

Condottiere
06-07-2008, 03:20
Technically, spears are thrust weapons with reach, or a dagger/knife attached at the end of a stick, if you like really simplified explanations. They require a different combat style to than the use of a generic hand weapon, which theoretically can be utilized in combination of thrust, slash and/or cut.

Windings of a snake
06-07-2008, 07:01
If they would be they would have seen more intense use.

Griefbringer
06-07-2008, 08:05
yes, I looked there. But it was unclear in the rules to me if it had to be specifically mentionned yes or no that they were hand weapons, or that they were that all by default.

Everyone of those weapon classes is a distinct one, ie. they do not have the abilities or rules of any other type of a weapon. This applie whether the weapon is held by hand, foot, tail or tentacle, or it has been stuck in the nose. Therefore:

- Spears are not hand weapons
- Morning stars are not halberds
- Handguns are not javelins

The only exception being pistol, whose special rules explicitely mention that it is a hand weapon when used in close combat.

T10
06-07-2008, 13:36
yes, I looked there. But it was unclear in the rules to me if it had to be specifically mentionned yes or no that they were hand weapons, or that they were that all by default.

That's odd. Last time i checked there was in the rules clear to anyone to know the hand weapon is grouping of a many weapon (sword, club, mace, hammer of war, axe, pick and the more et ceteras). A halberd's cover is also any of the pole-arm and in the same situation of this is the spear of many kinds called simply "spear".

-T10

The Red Scourge
09-07-2008, 04:57
Ruleswise they are two different choices.

Spears are spears.

Hand weapons are hand weapons.

It is of no relevance how many hands you need to use them, in the sense that they are not real weapons, but rule paragraphs.

Now stop this silly rules lawyering, please.

FigureFour
10-07-2008, 18:25
I love that logic actually.

My Glade Riders have spears and bows. Spears are weapons that are carried in the hand, so are bows. Therefore they all get 2 S4 attacks on the charge!

Hooray!

Condottiere
10-07-2008, 19:09
Spears are extended reach thrust weapons, whether held in one, two or three hands.

Griefbringer
10-07-2008, 19:11
My Glade Riders have spears and bows. Spears are weapons that are carried in the hand, so are bows. Therefore they all get 2 S4 attacks on the charge!


This piece of thinking is slightly hindered by the fact you only benefit from the additional hand weapon if you are on foot, not when mounted.

So you need some logic to claim that they are on foot, eg. because the horse has four hooves.

Festus
10-07-2008, 20:45
So Beastmen may not benefit from having additional hand weapons - and will not gain the extra attack - because they have hooves and thus are not *on foot* but *on hoof*!
Great thinking - I already love it :D

;)

Festus

Captain Keen
10-07-2008, 20:56
are horses noble animals and therefour not deemed to have feet? In my country we state that they have a 'hoofd' and not a 'kop' . they both mean 'head' but the second word is slang, and used when calling people names and so, lol.

Captain Keen
10-07-2008, 21:01
we use 'hoofd' when we mean the head of a human or horse, and we say 'kop' when we are talking about animal heads (excluding horseheads)

Captain Keen
10-07-2008, 21:03
I'm off topic a bit, but I can tell you that if you say 'kop dicht' that it will mean 'shut up' in Dutch and we can safely drop this topic all together, hahaha!

Loopstah
10-07-2008, 21:04
You could have just edited your first post rather than posting 3 times. :)

FigureFour
11-07-2008, 00:57
So Beastmen may not benefit from having additional hand weapons - and will not gain the extra attack - because they have hooves and thus are not *on foot* but *on hoof*!
Great thinking - I already love it :D

;)

Festus

This is why I cut the hooves off of all my Beastmen and replaced them with real feet.

Lord Aries
11-07-2008, 01:01
if a model is armed with a pistol and a hand weapon, is he considered to be armed with 2 hand weapons?

Damocles8
11-07-2008, 01:35
Yes Aires, as long as he's not mounted....

The Red Scourge
11-07-2008, 05:08
This piece of thinking is slightly hindered by the fact you only benefit from the additional hand weapon if you are on foot, not when mounted.

So you need some logic to claim that they are on foot, eg. because the horse has four hooves.

They dismount, when they get into CC of course and have developed a unique fighting style, where they fight side by side with their horsees. Duh! :rolleyes:

The Red Scourge
11-07-2008, 05:13
This is why I cut the hooves off of all my Beastmen and replaced them with real feet.

Which is the only sensible thing to do ;)

Now for max cheese. You mount them on centigors and arm them with dual spears or dual lances :D

AKArbalest
11-07-2008, 06:36
Yea, spears can't be hand weapons, think about it, gotta have two hands to wield a spear.

Condottiere
11-07-2008, 06:40
Yea, spears can't be hand weapons, think about it, gotta have two hands to wield a spear.Not necessarily.

kroq'gar
11-07-2008, 06:44
Yea, spears can't be hand weapons, think about it, gotta have two hands to wield a spear.

Most spears were one handed... your thinking of pikes.

One end was rested on the ground or driven in with a spike on the bottom. The spear was then lowered and controlled with one hand.

Griefbringer
11-07-2008, 08:45
if a model is armed with a pistol and a hand weapon, is he considered to be armed with 2 hand weapons?


Yes Aires, as long as he's not mounted....

Whether you are mounted or not does not affect whether he is considered armed with an additional hand weapon or not. It only determines if he can get a bonus attack from a possible additional hand weapon.


They dismount, when they get into CC of course and have developed a unique fighting style, where they fight side by side with their horsees. Duh! :rolleyes:

Or perhaps they do not actually have horses, but there is another elf clapping coco-nut halves running behind them?


Yea, spears can't be hand weapons, think about it, gotta have two hands to wield a spear.

The number of hands, feet or tentacles needed to wield a weapon is immaterial ruleswise. Only weapons specifically named as hand weapons are actual hand weapons, other one handed weapons (spear, lance, morning star, most magic weapons) are not. And as kroq'gar mentions, spear can be perfectly well wielded one handed (check out your local Greek hoplite phalanx or Saxon shieldwall for examples).


Most spears were one handed... your thinking of pikes.

One end was rested on the ground or driven in with a spike on the bottom. The spear was then lowered and controlled with one hand.

Resting on the ground would only be good for receiving a cavalry charge. For use against infantry an overarm or underarm thrust would be handier.

The Red Scourge
11-07-2008, 15:03
Yes Aires, as long as he's not mounted....

Sorry to disappoint you Damocles - and Aires. But you've got to have "a brace of pistols" to be considered armed with two hand weapons. BRB p.56

Condottiere
12-07-2008, 05:36
Whether you are mounted or not does not affect whether he is considered armed with an additional hand weapon or not. It only determines if he can get a bonus attack from a possible additional hand weapon.I'm trying to look up this rule on additional hand weapon for mounted troops - which page is it on?

Festus
12-07-2008, 07:49
Hi

Sorry to disappoint you Damocles - and Aires. But you've got to have "a brace of pistols" to be considered armed with two hand weapons. BRB p.56
Sorry to disappoint you, Red Scourge, in turn, but the rules for pistols have them as: "Count as handweapon".

And the rules for handweapons detail this further.

So if the model is armed with a pistol and a handweapon, or multiple pistols, or multiple handweapons, it will benefit from the rule for fighting with two weapons (as long as on foot, etc.).

cf BRB, p.56

Festus

Griefbringer
12-07-2008, 10:10
I'm trying to look up this rule on additional hand weapon for mounted troops

Essentially, there is no rule for additional hand weapon for mounted troops, thus they gain no bonuses from having a one.

There is one for infantry (page 56), and that applies only to infantry.

Royal Tiger
12-07-2008, 10:46
Or perhaps they do not actually have horses, but there is another elf clapping coco-nut halves running behind them?

how did he get the coconut?, Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
:p

Conotor
12-07-2008, 12:05
yes, I looked there. But it was unclear in the rules to me if it had to be specifically mentionned yes or no that they were hand weapons, or that they were that all by default.

Why would they be had wepons? It doesn't say they are.

Spears CANNOT give +1 AS for compineing with a shield, or give an additional attack with 2 spears.

TheWarSmith
12-07-2008, 16:11
This thread really made me laugh. I particularly like the guy who wanted to argue that he could get the mounted spear +1S bonus in addition to the +1A 2 hand weapon bonus. Does he think that he'd also fight in 2 ranks with his glade riders?

I'll be sure to play you when I want to arm my chaos warriors with great weapons, additional hand weapons, and shields. They'd be the obliterators of warhammer fantasy.

Griefbringer
12-07-2008, 16:39
I'll be sure to play you when I want to arm my chaos warriors with great weapons, additional hand weapons, and shields.

Nah, go for the black orcs instead - great weapons, twin choppas and shields. With creative rules lawyering this should provide AS 3+ and at least 2 attacks at strenght 8 (+1 S for the first choppa, +1 S for the second choppa and +2 S for the great weapon). :evilgrin:

Captain Keen
13-07-2008, 20:03
ok, it's clear to me now. thank you all. So to summer this up: if I go cavalry with spear and other hand weapon, and wield my shield against my left shoulder too, I get 2 attacks, the extra AS with my second weapon, and I fight in 2 ranks too. Sounds ok to me, hahaha! (hmmm, I love houseruling this one, just for the Vulcun inside of me ,:skull: )

505
13-07-2008, 20:30
This thread really made me laugh. I particularly like the guy who wanted to argue that he could get the mounted spear +1S bonus in addition to the +1A 2 hand weapon bonus. Does he think that he'd also fight in 2 ranks with his glade riders?


no three ranks.

cause they are related to high elves.
Or
after all they are called elves. and when they are on horses they are higher then the other elves..making them high elves

Braad
13-07-2008, 22:12
Nah, go for the black orcs instead - great weapons, twin choppas and shields. With creative rules lawyering this should provide AS 3+ and at least 2 attacks at strenght 8 (+1 S for the first choppa, +1 S for the second choppa and +2 S for the great weapon). :evilgrin:

Ow, you're not even close, mate...
The 'armed to da teef' rule says he carries a whole array of choppa's.
That means, no mention of actually how many...

So, if I just model like 25 choppa's, 6 great axes and enough arms to handle them on my model, that would give me a strenght bonus that would even cause a greater daemon of nurgle to have the need to test for terror when charging this baby!

@ Royal tiger:
What? You're not suggesting swallows carrying coconuts, are you?

---EDIT---

@ Captain Keen:
Yes, a horse is considered a noble animal. Why, I do not know, but I do know that I rather have it on my plate than standing in a meadow.
It's a noble cause, ofcourse, feeding me.

Danny76
13-07-2008, 23:47
This is why I cut the hooves off of all my Beastmen and replaced them with real feet.

Similarly i cut off all the hooves of my mounts and put feet on them.
Therefore i benefit from all the 'on foot' rules :D

Royal Tiger
14-07-2008, 10:23
@ Royal tiger:
What? You're not suggesting swallows carrying coconuts, are you?

It could grip it by the husk :D

Griefbringer
14-07-2008, 11:00
O
So, if I just model like 25 choppa's, 6 great axes and enough arms to handle them on my model, that would give me a strenght bonus that would even cause a greater daemon of nurgle to have the need to test for terror when charging this baby!


However, ranking up those models might be slighly demanding. Having some of the black orcs in the unit walking on stilts might help a bit, though.


Similarly i cut off all the hooves of my mounts and put feet on them.
Therefore i benefit from all the 'on foot' rules :D

Sounds like a splendid idea! However, do not forget to model that hand weapon that the horse is armed with (according to the BRB), otherwise your opponent might claim it is not WYSIWYG. Just glueing a spare axe-waving arm to the flank of the model should suffice.

The Red Scourge
14-07-2008, 11:06
...Just glueing a spare axe-waving arm to the flank of the model should suffice.

Ah, the wonders and marvels of worshipping chaos :evilgrin:

Hmm... I just thought about making 10 armed maneaters with handguns :D

FigureFour
14-07-2008, 19:39
This thread really made me laugh. I particularly like the guy who wanted to argue that he could get the mounted spear +1S bonus in addition to the +1A 2 hand weapon bonus. Does he think that he'd also fight in 2 ranks with his glade riders?

I'll be sure to play you when I want to arm my chaos warriors with great weapons, additional hand weapons, and shields. They'd be the obliterators of warhammer fantasy.

Furthermore I'd argue that such a setup is pretty great, therefore they are also armed with two great weapons for a total of +5S +1A. And sure, three ranks.

Edit: You do realise that I'm joking, right?

Lord Aries
14-07-2008, 22:47
We had a guy that played in our Mordheim campaign LONG LONG ago, and he thought that if he bought his guy 40 daggers, they would get +40 attacks...


We started calling him 40 daggers Doug. We asked him how this would be possible even.... He went to the food court and got a huge handful of plastic knives and showed us, by making a stabbing motion with a plastic knife, dropping it, pulling another out and stabbing again....


He kept doing this for 20 minutes I think... I don't know for sure cause I blacked out from laughing so hard.

TheWarSmith
15-07-2008, 04:24
It could grip it by the husk :D

It's not a question of where it grips it. It's a simple matter of weight ratio!!

Braad
15-07-2008, 05:12
We had a guy that played in our Mordheim campaign LONG LONG ago, and he thought that if he bought his guy 40 daggers, they would get +40 attacks...


We started calling him 40 daggers Doug. We asked him how this would be possible even.... He went to the food court and got a huge handful of plastic knives and showed us, by making a stabbing motion with a plastic knife, dropping it, pulling another out and stabbing again....


He kept doing this for 20 minutes I think... I don't know for sure cause I blacked out from laughing so hard.

I remember this story of a boy who had been bad in school and had to write a lot of times something like "I shouldn't be a bad boy". He glued several pens together to speed up the work.
So... if you just glue all the knives together, and make one stabbing motion, it should work!
On the other hand, you could also just hire an ogre to do the dirty job for you.

Griefbringer
15-07-2008, 07:22
Furthermore I'd argue that such a setup is pretty great, therefore they are also armed with two great weapons for a total of +5S +1A. And sure, three ranks.


That is correct.

I would also like to point out that most elves sport a star as a decoration. Should you be playing a game before the noon, this would naturally become a morning star and thus grant a +1 S bonus on the first round of any combat.

There are also some models that have their arms flailing around pretty wildly, so they should deserve to get the flail bonus.

kroq'gar
15-07-2008, 11:44
It's not a question of where it grips it. It's a simple matter of weight ratio!!

That all depends, is it an african swallow?




This forum got as silly as i thought it would :P

Captain Keen
15-07-2008, 12:35
the black and white african swallow; or the one with the two tails? More leverage with two tales, right? :)

Lord Malorne
15-07-2008, 12:45
Wow this is one hell of an off topic thread :p.

Braad
15-07-2008, 15:30
Indeed. It derailed somewhere 3 pages ago, and is now heading straight for the edge of the cliff...

Griefbringer
15-07-2008, 16:37
If I would model my knights with a portable shrubbery, would they be always able to claim soft cover? And if they would get behind hard cover (say, walls of Castle Anthrax) would this bonuses be cumulative?

Also, in the new dark elf book, do the witch elves count as flammable?

Loopstah
15-07-2008, 16:51
Also, in the new dark elf book, do the witch elves count as flammable?

Burn the Witch!

The more pertinent question is do they float?

Caiphas Cain
15-07-2008, 17:13
Yes, it says in subsection 3 paragraph 1 on page 15 "All Dark Elves will be concidered flammible"

TheWarSmith
16-07-2008, 05:41
That is correct.

I would also like to point out that most elves sport a star as a decoration. Should you be playing a game before the noon, this would naturally become a morning star and thus grant a +1 S bonus on the first round of any combat.

There are also some models that have their arms flailing around pretty wildly, so they should deserve to get the flail bonus.

But a morning star is NOT a flail. Those are 2 different items.

Flail(+1S first round of combat)
http://www.brutalrpg.com/gallery_images/Imperial%20Flail.jpg

morning star(just a hand weapon)
http://www.fisk-knives.com/Mace.jpg


Can I model my knights with captions saying "nee" so that they can cause fear?

Griefbringer
16-07-2008, 06:48
Hey, flail gives +2 S on first round of combat, morning star gives +1 S on first round of combat (according to BRB). So if you flail around with morning star, you should try to claim the bonuses for both.

However, I am wondering what happens if a Bretonnian lord is turned into a newt by a cunning witch:
- What is the base size for a newt
- what is the US for a newt
- does the newt benefit from the "small" rule

snurl
16-07-2008, 06:53
..
Also, in the new dark elf book, do the witch elves count as flammable?

Which Elves is witches?
The flammable ones.
So after burning them, you could strike the ones left standing with a Javelin.
Which brings me to the next question, If you are behind the wheel of your 1968 AMC Javelin and charging Elves with it, does it count as a great weapon since it takes 2 hands to steer?

kroq'gar
16-07-2008, 06:56
But a morning star is NOT a flail

Morning star is a type of mace
you can have a morning star flail (same macehead only with a chain connecting to the handle).

You can have an anything flail (such as a cat o' nine tails) so long as its used for flailing.



Can I model my knights with captions saying "nee" so that they can cause fear?

Yes. They also gain banshee scream.

Badbones777
23-07-2008, 19:54
If Spears WERE hand weapons they wouldnt generally cost a point-nor would units that come with them also be listed as having a handweapon (or an additional handweapon if we consider the spear one!) itd just be too powerful, especially when combined with a shield. If it DID have the hand weapon rules as well, there wouldnt be the huge debate between TK players about waht to arm your skellies with either.

Captain Keen
23-07-2008, 20:13
talking about flailing....made my first flagellant hero (a former Bannerholder of Teutogen-guards)
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154240

FigureFour
24-07-2008, 13:44
If Spears WERE hand weapons they wouldnt generally cost a point-nor would units that come with them also be listed as having a handweapon (or an additional handweapon if we consider the spear one!) itd just be too powerful, especially when combined with a shield. If it DID have the hand weapon rules as well, there wouldnt be the huge debate between TK players about waht to arm your skellies with either.

Ah, but if spears WEREN'T hand weapons, they would be carried using the model's feet or tentacles/claws (if available).

Mid'ean
24-07-2008, 14:15
WOW...for a second I was wondering how this thread could have continued for this many pages for such a simple answer. But after reading it, and LAMO, I can see where it went:D:D:D