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Twisted Ferret
28-10-2005, 01:38
Someone once referred to him as such, but I just don't see how. For that matter, I don't see why anyone would worship/serve him; he's the god of plague and disease and dispair. All very unpleasant things. What's the philosophy behind his worship? How the heck could be he described as "rather kindly"? :wtf: The former's always perplexed me, and the latter intrigues me as well.

C. Langana
28-10-2005, 02:33
Not so much kindly, as perhaps avuncular, or grandfatherly.
Nurgle has been known to have a sense of humour.
Mind you, as far as Nurgle is concerned giving to charity would involve a free plague, or perhaps 'get one black death and the septic buboes come free!'

azimaith
28-10-2005, 02:43
In TT one of his minor psychic powers is "Nurgles Dance" which of course forces people afflicted to dance around. So kindly... well kindly in the arms oozing off your body way. But he's not exactly bloodthirsty like Khorne. Though he is referred to as "Grandfather Nurgle"

Twisted Ferret
28-10-2005, 03:00
Not so much kindly, as perhaps avuncular, or grandfatherly.
Nurgle has been known to have a sense of humour.
See, this is what I don't understand. Where in "plague, despair, disease, decay" is humor or grandfatherly-ness to be found?:confused:

shutupSHUTUP!!!
28-10-2005, 03:01
He grants more "gifts" to his followers than the other gods apparantly, and so he is quite "kind" in this regard. :wtf:

Twisted Ferret
28-10-2005, 03:02
But why?! :wtf:

azimaith
28-10-2005, 03:02
Know how grandparents smell...funny?
Just kidding.

I think the whole grandfatherlyness is just his personality.

Why?
Why not?

devolutionary
28-10-2005, 03:03
Nurgle is the god of Decay and Death. Plague is a tool, so is disease. Decay is an act, as is death. He isn't about despair, that's more Slaanesh territory as far as I'm concerned.

The jocular side of things is that, as Nurgle sees it, ultimately all come to him. Why be concerned about it? He is at the end everybody's friend, saving them from pain and agony and life in shrivelled state.

Of course, this is a lot of opinion ;)

Edit - Azimaith has a good point in Why Not? Why is Khorne a bloodthirsty maniac? That is only a small element of war. Well... why not? It's a lot more enigmatic and interesting than a simple monster of war, much like Nurgle as a grandfather figure is more of a drawcard than something with the personality of Azazoth on holiday.

azimaith
28-10-2005, 03:05
When your immortal death isn't quite such a big deal for them anymore. Its very possible he doesn't identify with human suffering and looks at death as an invitability of fleshy beings, nothing earthshattering or even bad.

Ivan Stupidor
28-10-2005, 03:05
Nurgle worship is fairly straightforward - be faithful to him, and his plagues don't kill you. That's a fairly big draw right there, especially for someone in a hive city who has watched the rest of their hab-complex wiped out by some form of the galloping pox, or whatever the disease de jour is.

Essentially, Nurgle gets people who have nothing to lose. They've stared death in the face and decided that they'd rather just keep living, and they're not going to let anything - be it disease, starvation, disembowelment or some other horrible fate - stop them from doing so. They're going to live, damn it, and Nurgle offers them that route. Nurgle's standard blessing is the fact that disease and pain don't really effect you anymore; the horrific appearance comes later - after all, when you get down to it, your average Nurgle worshipper is nothing more than an especially strong-willed zombie-thing, and most of their flesh is dead or dying. Nurgle sustains their soul, and gives them moulds and strange contagions to hold their rotting forms together.

Nurgle's protectiveness (or "fatherly love" for his followers), I believe, is directly influenced by the fact that his followers are strongly opposed to dying - not just opposed like your average person, but so opposed that it has completely consumed their existence. Nurgle reflects this - he is a reflection of his follower's desires, and if they are obsessed with continuing in some semblance of life, he is obsessed with keeping them alive. Nurgle daemons - especially Great Unclean Ones - have been noted to fly into horrible rages when Nurgle's "pets" are attacked, be they plague bacteria or Plague Marines.

It should also be noted that Nurgle is Father Nurgle in a very direct sense - most of his followers would have died horrible deaths without him. He gave them life.

Nurgle's rather dark sense of humour likely also comes from his followers - these people have, like I said before, stared death in the face. Nurgle's armies march into battle, and come home to dig bullets out of their faces and sit down and sew whatever limb fell off this time back on. They can see the pomp and ceremony of their enemies, and they know Father Nurgle will win in the end. They know, eventually, the arches will be cast down and ground into dust, the vehicles and weapons will rust away, and the soldiers will die. The enemy isn't fighting to win - they're fighting to delay the inevitable. A Nurgle follower knows this. He knows, too, that eventually he will die. He's probably been fairly close at least once. Evnetually, Father Nurgle wins. So why take it seriously? Your side will win in the end, so don't worry. Sit back, relax, and laugh at those poor deluded fools who still run around screaming in pain because their liver got punctured or something stupid like that.

Twisted Ferret
28-10-2005, 03:07
That's what I was looking for. Thanks. :)

Not despair? If the Chaos gods represent the various dominant emotions, and were created by tides of emotions swirling around in the Warp (that's what I've been told, at least) what does Nurgle represent? In my other thread - on the relative power of each Chaos god - several people posted about the despair/Nurgle correlation.

Edit: Just saw Ivan's post. Reading now....

Ha, wonderful! :) Makes me want to go right out and worship Nurgle.

DantesInferno
28-10-2005, 03:08
People would follow Nurgle not so much out of despair, but rather the acceptance of despair. Once you've given up on all hope, there's nothing left other than to accept your own fate and let everything else rot around you.

The idea of Nugle being kindly probably relates to the way he distributes his dubious gifts, which generally cause much suffering in their recipients. But, once you've given up, why not more suffering? Nurgle apparently takes much amusement in prolonging his followers' suffering - look at the Destroyer Plague which struck the Death Guard - it tortured them, but it kept them alive. It's that thought of prolonging his followers' suffering with his gifts, and the apparent humour with which he gives them which gives him the bleakly ironic description as "kindly", or avuncular.

EDIT: I don't think that it's correct to say Nurgle followers are primarily driven to prolong their own lives. I think that it's better to say they don't really care that much anymore, but there's nothing left other than to spread disease and death, and let everything collapse around you.

devolutionary
28-10-2005, 03:11
Nurgle is more Fear rather than Despair. Despair is losing all hope, when smells like Slaanesh to me. Now Nurgle is Fear. Fear of death, fear of dying, fear of anything. You fear something, you'll cling to what you can in the hope that your fear wont catch up to you.

Fear is much more prevalent and powerful than despair will ever be.

DantesInferno
28-10-2005, 03:19
I don't agree that it would be fear or despair. Nurgle is for those prepared to accept the ultimate futility of trying to avoid death, suffering and oblivion. If you fear it, you still have hope for a better result, the potential to improve, build and evolve, which is the exact opposite of what Nurgle stands for, and much more Tzeentch.

Nurgle is ultimately about acceptance, IMO.

azimaith
28-10-2005, 03:20
Its starting to sound like Nurgle is a exisistentialist philospher rather than a plague god :).

C. Langana
28-10-2005, 04:14
Its starting to sound like Nurgle is a exisistentialist philospher rather than a plague god . Azimath
Surely a good thing, I have alwaysfelt the chaos gods could do with a little more fleshing out.
I've always had a soft (and pustulent) spot for Nurgle as he is always there in the end, and I rather like his 'can't beat me, join me in the end' approach to galactic domination.

sea dog
28-10-2005, 09:31
lust to live , my friends , thats what brings papa nurgle . in return papa nurgle wants his childen to spead his love ...

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-10-2005, 10:06
Nurgle is more Fear rather than Despair. Despair is losing all hope, when smells like Slaanesh to me. Now Nurgle is Fear. Fear of death, fear of dying, fear of anything. You fear something, you'll cling to what you can in the hope that your fear wont catch up to you.

Fear is much more prevalent and powerful than despair will ever be.


No, Nurgle is despair allright. Just as Tzeentch is the will to live and hope, Nurgle is dispair and an acceptance of your own mortality/fate. Nurgle is for when you have given up all hope.

devolutionary
28-10-2005, 10:43
That's a matter of opinion. If you reach the end, you wouldn't need anything, least of all some bloated deity of death to usher you to the finale of your life.

Tzeentch is the will to live and hope? That's a first for me I have to admit.

CELS
28-10-2005, 10:52
Know how grandparents smell...funny?
Just kidding.
LMAO! :D

As others have said already, the Chaos gods represent both positive and negative aspects of life. Khorne represents the duality of betrayal and honour, as he is all aspects of war. Slaanesh, I believe, represents both lust and love. Tzeentch represents both truth and lies (and hope too, though I forget how). Nurgle represents both life and death, strangely.

DantesInferno
28-10-2005, 11:08
Check the most recent Chaos Codex.

"Nurgle is the embodiment of disease and deterioration, the elemental forces that hold in check the energies of progess and evolution. There exists within every mortal the desire to let all around him rot, and to exult in the processes of disease and decomposition.

Nurgle empowers those who would see every accomplishment of Mankind reduced to mouldering ruin."

Also the IA Death Guard: "Their surrender to Nurgle left them with only one seething, burning outlet, stoked white-hot by the depth of their self-loathing: to infect the strong, slay the weak and rot the foundations of everything in their paths until it collapses. Their debasement would no longer seem so shameful, if the pestilence of their Unclean Lord eventually brought everything to ruin."

The motivation is to let everything else rot, not stay alive themselves - it's the acceptance of the futility of life.

As opposed to Tzeentch (Codex Chaos): "Tzeentch embodies mutability and change, the drive to evolve and manipulate. This spirit is present in the essence of every living creature......the ultimate craving for survival. It is in the hearts of those with the strongest desire to prevail that Tzeentch whispers his insidious promise; offering a means to life eternal to those unwilling to accept death and oblivion as inevitable."

major_panic
28-10-2005, 11:11
One could say that Nurgle is a bit like Santa Claus - just replace "nice children" with "diseased people (maniacs)" and you're halfway there... :P

Too, he gives gifts to "naughty children", but they inexplicably can't handle them and die. :D

sigur
28-10-2005, 11:13
I think that devolutionary has a point in connecting Nurgle to fear as well as most of you have points in your view of Nurgle. People who are afraid of changes, of what the future could bring, of being lonely and so on turn tu Nurgle even if they don't notice it in the first place.

Also, Tzeentch is about hope and change; that's why those two chaos gods oppose so strongly. You could say that Nurgle is also connected to pessimism, acceptance (as mentioned above); while Tzeentch is about change (duh:rolleyes: ), optimism to improve someone's situation by twisting with the ways of life.

Reading The Lost and the Damned really got me into Nurgle as it describes this god from a very interesting perspective (the narrator-style of fluff-writing is way superior to the subjective one) and with very characterful stories and quotes.

vforvenator
28-10-2005, 13:42
The philisophical perspectives were terrific, most of them being covered in this thread, but I thought the stories were a letdown.
The animosity twixt Tzeentch and Nurgle, Khorne and Slaanesh I don't quite get. Tzeentch and Nurgle, change and apathy, growth and decay okay, but I'd have thought Tzeentch and Khorne as brains and bloodshed would be far more opposed to one another. Nurgle and Slaanesh as self-degradation and narcissism, the same. I thought much of the rivalry idea came from when Chaos was young, the original RoC days, Khorne's lot were seen as the trad metal inspired, hard as nails, meat-and-potatoe 'chaos' archetype, while the slaanesh lot came off badly as just pink and poncey, the Moorcockian idea of lust and longing etc falling on deaf ears for a good few years.

lust to live , my friends , thats what brings papa nurgle . in return papa nurgle wants his childen to spead his love ...Come down before posting, there's a chap. :evilgrin:

Sai-Lauren
28-10-2005, 14:01
The animosity twixt Tzeentch and Nurgle, Khorne and Slaanesh I don't quite get. Tzeentch and Nurgle, change and apathy, growth and decay okay, but I'd have thought Tzeentch and Khorne as brains and bloodshed would be far more opposed to one another. Nurgle and Slaanesh as self-degradation and narcissism, the same. I thought much of the rivalry idea came from when Chaos was young, the original RoC days...
Well, it's not so much an East-West, North-south opposition, it's a fatal four-way for the championship belt. Whilst Khorne may ally with Nurgle, or Tzeentch, or even in some cases Slaanesh, such alliances are doomed to be short lived.

Basically, it's all about style - Khorne would smack you in the head with an axe, Slaanesh would spend all day carving into you with a rapier, Nurgle would hit you with a rusty scythe and leave you to get tetanus and Tzeentch would turn you into a chicken, then turn your friends into potatoes, carrots and spices, an oven, several saucepans and a casserole dish, and a cookbook.:D

One of the things for Nurgle was defiance, not the teen-angsty "my parents hate me, I'm going to listen to Marilyn Manson" kind - that's probably more Slaanesh, but the kind you get when you've lost everything, including your health, and have got nothing else left.

Wiseman
28-10-2005, 14:25
he grants immortality to the plague marines from memory

Khaine's Messenger
28-10-2005, 14:44
For that matter, I don't see why anyone would worship/serve him

Good Old Richter ( ;) ) has some thoughts on this that are pretty disturbing when you take them in the proper context. On one level, Nurgle is a champion of the downtrodden and spurned, a lord of lepers, an overlord of outcasts, the identity of the invisible masses. Germs are nearly invisible to the macroscopic...and so are those who often turn to Nurgle to society at large. Like many gods, Nurgle likes to catch 'em when they're down, and what's lower than the imminent possibility of nonexistance, whether that be death or the fate of a social pariah? Insofar as the Chaos Gods can be expressed as social constructs--even as analogs to, say, an elemental caste system--one could readily associate Nurgle with the supposed lower classes, for as a lord of feast and famine Nurgle can trace his roots to the beginning of organized civilization and agriculture and beyond...further, capitalism is even more grotesquely Nurglesque, as the "sin" of overproduction/underconsumption drives to extreme waste on top of your typical Marxist wrangling about economy and social structure. Anyway, I think I lost my train of thought somewhere in there.

Oh yes. If one makes the (crass) assumption that each of the Chaos Gods attracts followers from typical sections of society, Nurgle is often portrayed as a charity-driven fellow with an ear towards anyone whose star is approaching its nadir...the sort of "charity" one finds from inclusive, abusive, and nasty collective social groups that accreate in the bowels of society--street charity, gang charity. This is why, in WHFB at least, the most popularized proponents of Nurgley expansionism ( ;) ) often take the form of rather insane travelling acting troupes that are more than a little reminiscent of horribly caricatured Gypsies...and even worse, Richter goes on to note, the act of casting out one's sick and forcing them to wear bells and bobs to announce their "difference" often does little to allay the misery of those society forcibly evicts. So one could argue that Nurgle is not only a god of despair and fear, but rejection and expulsion, of existing "outside." And so he comes full circle, just as Nurgle berated Khorne for denying the coming into being of Slaanesh, who Nurgle probably sees with mild brotherly affection (for it is inevitable that society will decay...).

Minister
28-10-2005, 16:39
A mix of 40K and Fantasy, but none the less:

"The village boys never liked me, called me plain as a pikestaff. They all fancied Elena as their sweetheart, with her blong ringlets and - how was it they put it - her mischevious eyes. I showed that bitch, and her little bunch of drooling admirers. The followers of the Lord of Corruption didn't care how I looked, they were all covered with sores and boils and buboes anyway. All I had to do to get the plague-maggots was devote myself to the Great Decay. It's not like I was giving up anything, other than the chance to grow older and uglier alone in the village till the day some zealous Witch Hunter would like as not have burned me anyway, Chaos or no Chaos. It was worth it, knowing what would happen when I shoved the maggots under her door. Took about a week for the flesh to start rotting off her prettey face, and all of the hansome boys in the village had the same thing happen to them a day or so after her. The hardest part was keeping the smirk off my own face as I walked about my business through all that suffering, seeing the mute expressions of horror on all of them as they became far less beautiful than I."
-Olga Langenspiesse, miller's daughter in the village of Frundsberg; Nurgle Cultist.

"Nurgle is the god of plague, pestilence, decay and physical corruption. His body is huge and bloated, his rotting flesh swollen with decay and pock-marked with sores and lesions. Tiny daemons called Nurglings crawl all over his putrid carcass plucking at torn flesh and sucking at the leprous sores and putrid boils. Nurgle is full of morbid energy and enthusiasm, and his daemons travel through time and space spreading plagues and corruption as they perform their Dance of Death round cities and towns they wish to infect. Mortals who die from Nurgle's plague are never free of their agonies, as their souls are claimed by the plague god and they become new daemon servants in turn. A mortal so much as touched by a daemon of Nurgle will catch some foul disease, and is doomed from that moment on to die. It is held that a mortal who is dying of sickness can forstall his death by calling upon Nurgle and pledging his soul to the Lord of Decay."
- Renegades

The Carnival of Death
The space inside the wagon was cavernous out of all proportion to its tiny exterior size. The cacophonies that filled it were indescribable; the squealing, screaming, chattering and bickering of the Nurglings was beyond mere human imagining. A million unruly school children left to their own devices could not begin to rival the anarchy or intensity of that daemonic din. The grating drones of the Plaguebearers all counting at once produced a sound so bass and penetrating that it made the vital organs of every daemon vibrate and quiver in time with its beat.
Then there were the indescribable noises, the creaks and groans, the little pops of bursting pustules, the sloppering slicky noises of the frantically affectionate Beasts, and other sounds which were impossible to ascribe to any one source in particular. Amidst it all, waving his arms, the Great Unclean One was trying to make himself heard.
"Ahh… Gentlecreatures, children, pretties... lend your ears to your loving Father, cease thy aimless chatter, banish thy banal burblings..."
It was quite useless, the noise continued apace, the squeals and laughter reaching a new crescendo. The Great Unclean One appeared for a moment to be hurt by his fellow daemon's rudeness.
"SHUT UP," he bellowed.
The noise stopped instantly, not even the beat of little daemonic hearts or drip of tiny daemonic noses could be heard. The brown of every Plaguebearer furrowed in concentration as each tried desperately to remember the last number he thought of. The Great Unclean Once quickly regained his composure, for he was used to such things.
"Gentlecreatures our pretties... now is the time to sing the songs of fate, for the moment has come for the Dance of Death!"

Father Nurgle
Father Nurgle settled his great mass down among the supporting heap of his smallest minions. Those lucky enough to escape being crushed by their master's bulk squealed delightedly as they snuggled into the damp warmth of his flesh. Nurgle reclined comfortably and his corpulant face assumed an air of triumphant expectancy.
Nurgle gave a dignified nod to one of the Plaguebearers. Excitedly, the daemon began to beat its drum, slowly and rhythmically at first, and gradually faster and faster as it became carried away by the sense of occasion. All of his servants applauded, and Nurgle acknowledged them with a smile and regal wave of his festering paw.
It was the prelude to battle that excited the daemons, drawing squeals of anticipation from the tumbling little Nurglings. This time the cavalcade was to be joined by others: Champions of Nurgle and their mortal warbands, who were also going to take part in the great war. the Beasts bounded and fussed in their eagerness to welcome the mortals, causing considerable disarray and the odd casualty amongst the serried ranks of warriors.
The warbands flocked to the sound of the drum. They came in carts and wagons like those of Nurgle's own cavalcade, marched into camp, or simply distilled from the surrounding woods like shadows at sunset. Some of the most severely mutated of them wore bright carnival masks and voluminous robes, completely failing to hide their unique disfigurements if that was in fact their purpose. The Plaguebearers carefully recorded the name of each Champion as he arrived, announcing his titles as loudly as they were able among the rising laughter and squeaking chatter. The show pleased Father Nurgle immensely: the busy carts with their tinkling bells, the gaily-coloured masks and carefully decorated palanquins bearing various daemons or Champions. He sighed with satisfaction and patted the little Nurgling that had crawled into the crook of his arm and puddled there.

ryng_sting
28-10-2005, 17:03
He isn't about despair, that's more Slaanesh territory as far as I'm concerned.

Wrong; he's despair. Fear, disgust, revulsion and bitterness are associated concepts that come from despair, just as war and martial pride develop from the anger that is the core of Khorne. See HOC, SOC, and above all else, Liber Chaotica Nurgle. I quote these words from it for general enlightenment:

'My most esteemed colleague at the Colleges of Magic - Maguster Patriarch Vespasian Kant, believes that I have missed the wood for the trees. While decay and disease are the physical symptoms of the Daemon God Nurgle's effect on the world, they are not the core of His essence [...] If He truly does feed upon hopelessness and misery, what better way to drive mortals into the pits of despair than to inflict upon them the misery of an incurable disease, or face them with the inevitability and experience of decay and the suffering the accompanies it?'

On Nurgle's seemingly jovial aspect:

'The Unclean Ones (direct copies of the plague god) seem to epitomise every destructive emotional and psychical defence that mortals use to justify their miserable states, often giving the Unclean One the appearance of being driven by a gregarious, even sentimental nature. Yet if this is truly affection, then it is affection of an entirely destructive sort. The Unclean Ones love their servants in the same way a supremely overly protective, possessive and domineering mother might love her children....they are encourage to fear change and resent all people outside their 'family', and they are never allowed to leave home or be challengeed by the world at large.'

Nurgle appeals to the desperate, the poor, the diseased, the outcast, the inward, the dumb and the apathetic - His favourite trick is to leave people with no choice but to worship him. Hence his infamous charity towards the diseased and terminally ill.

Twisted Ferret
29-10-2005, 22:46
'The Unclean Ones (direct copies of the plague god) seem to epitomise every destructive emotional and psychical defence that mortals use to justify their miserable states, often giving the Unclean One the appearance of being driven by a gregarious, even sentimental nature. Yet if this is truly affection, then it is affection of an entirely destructive sort. The Unclean Ones love their servants in the same way a supremely overly protective, possessive and domineering mother might love her children....they are encourage to fear change and resent all people outside their 'family', and they are never allowed to leave home or be challengeed by the world at large.'
But at the same time, it is a family, and I assume that his followers at least gain some comfort from it. The weak often do not want anything more...

Something I had thought of once - though Nurgle is decay and death, he also gives life. The same disease that would drive people to commit themselves to his worship also sustains and nourishes them. Life in decay, corruption in life... a wonderful contradiction.