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Nidhogg
07-07-2008, 21:35
Ok first off, apologies if this has been dealt with before but I don't normally venture into this neck of the woods so I thought I'd just post it anyway.

Ever since the Ork codex came out I though that a 6 point boy seemed hideously undercosted. Now in 5ed this taken to whole new levels. 180 boyz isn'y unthinkable and that's 6 tough scoring units led by a powerklaw nob who can annhilate any vehicle he touchs. You can't shoot down that many orks and you can't out fight them due to 6" counter-attack. Its 1320pts for 180 boys with 6 Nobz with klaws and bosspoles, so even when under 12 models they can still auto pass leadership tests. Then add 85 for a Mek with kff and your left with 95 points, not much but it can get you something shiney. Or you can swap one of the squads for some grots and get more cover saves for the whole army. I can't think of a more powerful army.

Nidhogg

belize13
07-07-2008, 21:46
remember in 5th, there are no partial hits with any templates. any model even partially touched is considered a hit.

so against orks, bring lots of templates.

Jmznudd
07-07-2008, 21:52
That's nice.... until you can't cover two objectives under the new 5th ed scenarios.

So I take my Land raider, or Monolith, or Grav tank and park it near one objective.... and use my troops to take the other objective that you're no where near. If you move part of that unit towards that objective, I hit it with templates, shooting, and pie plates. So I contest one objective and win the other.

Now... if you break the mob up into 2 blocks of 90... well, that's a bit tricker .

-Jmz

Slaaneshi Slave
07-07-2008, 21:58
I'd love to face off against that army. With so many models on the table they will be very tightly packed, meaning I will kill SCORES with every flamer shot from my WH. I have DOZENS of flamers in my WH armies.... All I need to do now is an Oiler Grot, then I can make myself stir fried Ork.

Decius
07-07-2008, 22:02
That's nice.... until you can't cover two objectives under the new 5th ed scenarios.

So I take my Land raider, or Monolith, or Grav tank and park it near one objective.... and use my troops to take the other objective that you're no where near. If you move part of that unit towards that objective, I hit it with templates, shooting, and pie plates. So I contest one objective and win the other.

Now... if you break the mob up into 2 blocks of 90... well, that's a bit tricker .

-Jmz

I don't think the OP is referring to one mob of 180 boys. That's not legal outside of apocalypse. It's 6 mobs of 30.

Jwolf
07-07-2008, 22:12
I've played a fair number of games of 5th against a footslogging Ork horde. They're nasty, and they aren't packed nearly as closely as you would think. I believe the Orks will be the army that people will have to build to defeat in slugging match games. I also believe that slugging match games will be most likely to end in a draw, so most players will go for outflanking and force preservation in most games. Orks are fairly bound to go for slugging match by the nature of their lists and troops, so I doubt that they will be the most winning army for 5th edition.

AfroCelt
07-07-2008, 22:15
the horde army is finally coming back in, so you might need to alter your MEQ-specialized army a tiny bit...every army has weapons to deal with masses for a reason.

...Do the Tau have a large blas...oh yeah...hammerheads and the AFP weapon (that ignores cover saves too!)

IJW
07-07-2008, 23:17
They are nasty, but:

As already mentioned, lack of partial hits from blast markers PLUS blast markers scattering instead of disappearing into the void is going to cause them pain.

Fearless can really put a dent in an Ork Mob if they lose combat. A CC nasty unit like Berzerkers or Scorpions charging into a Mob will probably take them them down in a couple of rounds.

No consolidation into new units means the enemy will probably get at least one more round of rapid-fire shooting between combats.

Armies that go for sheer quantity of shots over high AP (particularly Eldar) can shoot down 180 Orks.


Nobz with klaws and bosspoles, so even when under 12 models they can still auto pass leadership tests.
That's not quite how Bosspoles work. Chances are, they will be killing a Boy with each use, and you can still fail the re-roll on top of that...

WallWeasels
08-07-2008, 01:01
You would have to play on a 8x4 to fit that many orkz comfortably :o on a 6x4 you would find yourself abit clogged. I can see it being hilariously fun playing against the army :) As Slanneshi Slave says, I would love to get some flamers up there :)
I think a Guide and Doom with Eldar would really tear this army apart. Especially like, Scattarlaser/Cannon warwalkers and such dishing out tons of high power shots a turn!

don_mondo
08-07-2008, 01:32
Faced a 220 Ork army with my Mech IG a few weeks back with a list I had brought to use against Marines. End of game, less than 20 Orks remained. It can be done.............

WallWeasels
08-07-2008, 01:41
Jeeze how many points Don? :0

TAU AIR CASTE
08-07-2008, 02:16
dont forget they run now so or hot on your heels, They are a real hand full and with the waaaa they are evn better, turn 2 charge 3 at worst. Not unbeatable but extremly hard to beat and bear in mind at a tournament your not going to be tooled up to face just orks.

Loki73
08-07-2008, 05:25
I just beat a 180 ork army with my guard. That being said it wasnt easy. If I were playing 5thed I may have had more shots. The opponent had some bad luck regarding tellyporting into impassable terrain. eek! I offewrd him a re-do cause that was horrible. Being a friendly game and all. It was horrible to face esp scince he had 2 squads of stormboys. Man those doods move fast!

xinsanityx
08-07-2008, 09:00
The ork horde isn't going to be as good as people think. They do get to run, but template weapons destroy them. Flamers are even worse with their new rules. It's very easy for a squad with 2 flamers to kill 10-15 orks just with the flamers. If it's a chaos terminator squad with 2 heavy flamers you're in deep crap.

Squads like khorn berzerkers, genestealers, death company, veterans and super hormagaunts will absolutely wreck them in close combat because of their fearless rule. Not only will they kill scores of them with their attacks, but they'll also end up winning combat and killing off another 10.

Against super shooty armies like guard and tau they also have difficulty. Against the guard they face so many templates, and hundreds of lasgun shots, and when they finally get into combat they kill a squad or 2 and then have to face all that firepower again. Against tau, they'll probably get no cover saves because of marker lights, they'll face alot of shots from firewarriors and kroot, they'll also face alot of templates, and they should never catch or kill their tanks.

I actually think taking smaller more elite squads like nobs in a battle wagon, biker nobs and flash gits is going to be the way to go.

Latro_
08-07-2008, 10:49
Yea to be honest a 180 boy ork horde is pretty impractical to play with on a standard 6x4 table. It will be so tightly packed and hard to move that swathes of orks can be killed off with template weapons before they do anything.

Not to mention how dull it would be to play with, It'd take you an hour to setup and ages to move them in your turn.

General Squeek Squeek
08-07-2008, 10:57
180 models on the table isn't as hard to fit on a table as you might think. Then again my 2k skaven list for fantasy has 390 models. With 180 models on table you will need some time to do your movement though.

Slaaneshi Slave
08-07-2008, 10:59
The difference between fantasy and 40k is that you move 30 of those Scaven at a time on a movement tray, whereas in 40k you move everything individually.

IJW
08-07-2008, 11:00
And the Skaven are ranked up on 20mm bases, which takes up far less room.

Latro_
08-07-2008, 11:19
Yea, I urge somone to post a pic of what 180 orks actually look like on a 6x4 table.
If you dont think they're not gonna be tightly packed and not gonna suffer from having to plough through difficult terrain for at least 50% of the armt then ye sorely mistaken.

If i were gonna horde it up propper i'd go as far as to mix it up a bit with kommandos who can now come on from the short board edges and storm boyz who can provide an initial first wave and due to their faster movement, get around making the army all bunched up and sloggin through difficult terrain.

In my experience ork armies function much better and are alot more fun to play when you have 3 tiers.
An initial fast wave to engage the enemy and slow them down/weaken
A core middle wave of foot sloggers who finish the enemy off after the fast wave
and a static optional support wave who hang back and provide covering fire/hold home objectives.

IJW
08-07-2008, 11:24
Not forgetting that it's effectively a 6x1' deployment in one setup, and 3x2' in another...

EDIT: 180 Orks = the entire long edge of the table, base-to-base, two-and-a-half Orks deep. :)

xinsanityx
08-07-2008, 11:44
If you go 5 rows deep, that would be 36 orks per row. The board is 72 inches, so 36 orks would take up 36 inches, which would let you space them an inch apart. 1 inch apart is still decently packed. An ordance template would still probably hit about 10 orks. Not to mention just about every squad would have to slog through difficult terrain, and you'd also be very vulnerable on your flanks.

If you pack them in tight you're more maneuverable, and can better support yourself, but you're going to be hit hard by templates. If you spread out, you're still pretty vulnerable to templates, and you're almost certainly slowed down by terrain, not to mention you can't support yourself very well. I usually use 90 boys on foot, and that can be difficult at times. I just can't imagine trying to actually make 180 boys work, especially when someone decides "hey you're spread across the entire board, i'll set my entire 60 model army up in this corner so i now only have to face half of your army"

Frankly
08-07-2008, 12:22
hmmm yeah I'm running 130 gaunts and I'm thinking that if someone runs a 180 orcs they're NOT going to have much problems setting up.

You would actually be taking that many models and be thinking your going to loose a good 50% of them just closing down on some types of opponents.

I'd love to see that type of army more often in 40K. If the rules help out horde based armies, I'm all for it.

Nidhogg
08-07-2008, 12:49
I don't think the OP is referring to one mob of 180 boys. That's not legal outside of apocalypse. It's 6 mobs of 30.

Exactly so.


They are nasty, but:

As already mentioned, lack of partial hits from blast markers PLUS blast markers scattering instead of disappearing into the void is going to cause them pain.

Fearless can really put a dent in an Ork Mob if they lose combat. A CC nasty unit like Berzerkers or Scorpions charging into a Mob will probably take them them down in a couple of rounds.

No consolidation into new units means the enemy will probably get at least one more round of rapid-fire shooting between combats.

Armies that go for sheer quantity of shots over high AP (particularly Eldar) can shoot down 180 Orks.

I agree with you on the whole blast thing. I hadn't thought of it before and yes it will make a large dent in the Orks. However unless that nasty CC unit has been unharmed I reckon the orks would win the fight with 6" counter attack. The number of attacks would be enough to rip the heart out of that cc unit. Lets say 8 scorpions with an exarch with claw charge a squad of orks. Shooting kills around three so 27 orks. The 7 scorpions cause 7 wounds one of which is saved so 21 orks left. The 20 orks score 30 hits, 15 wounds and 5 dead scorpions the nob/exarch each kill 1/2 so for a loss of 11 orks I kill 6/7 sccorpions. the boys are still fearless and will easily wipe the eldar next turn. OK so in this case I know its a fulll squad of boyz (which is unlikely) but I was making a point.


That's not quite how Bosspoles work. Chances are, they will be killing a Boy with each use, and you can still fail the re-roll on top of that...

Whoops, my bad I don't really know the ork codex in great detail.


Squads like khorn berzerkers, genestealers, death company, veterans and super hormagaunts will absolutely wreck them in close combat because of their fearless rule. Not only will they kill scores of them with their attacks, but they'll also end up winning combat and killing off another 10.

As I said before the 6" consoldate means they'll give as good as they get (almost).

Nidhogg

IJW
08-07-2008, 13:18
However unless that nasty CC unit has been unharmed I reckon the orks would win the fight with 6" counter attack. The number of attacks would be enough to rip the heart out of that cc unit. Lets say 8 scorpions with an exarch with claw charge a squad of orks. Shooting kills around three so 27 orks. The 7 scorpions cause 7 wounds one of which is saved so 21 orks left. The 20 orks score 30 hits, 15 wounds and 5 dead scorpions the nob/exarch each kill 1/2 so for a loss of 11 orks I kill 6/7 sccorpions. the boys are still fearless and will easily wipe the eldar next turn. OK so in this case I know its a fulll squad of boyz (which is unlikely) but I was making a point.
30 Boyz + Nob + Klaw + Bosspole costs 30-odd points more than a full Scorpion unit, let alone one that's eight-strong, so it's hardly an equal comparison. Plus the Exarch will normally kill 2-3, not 1-2, due to higher WS.
You then need to look at the Fearless rules again - when the Orks lose they will then take further casualties.

don_mondo
08-07-2008, 16:10
Jeeze how many points Don? :0


He had 2000, I had 1850.............

Be a bit harder to do in 5th, as all my tanks (Chimeras, Hellhounds and Leman Russ) will lose their ability to move and shoot at full effect. I used the Russ Heavy bolters a lot more than I did the Battle Cannon, I think I fired the BC once the whole game. Now the Hellhounds Inferno Cannon, he made those a primary target from turn one.

shakespear
09-07-2008, 14:46
I ran 120 in 4th. It was great, won alot, nobody played orks.

Only problem is, as detailed as they are, it takes YEARS to paint that many.

Azzy
09-07-2008, 16:18
I ran 120 in 4th. It was great, won alot, nobody played orks.

Only problem is, as detailed as they are, it takes YEARS to paint that many.

*cries, still painting orks*

Slaaneshi Slave
09-07-2008, 17:39
Palatine

20 Battle Sisters
w/ 2 Melta Guns, Veteran

20 Battle Sisters
w/ 2 Melta Guns, Veteran

20 Battle Sisters
w/ 2 Melta Guns, Veteran

20 Battle Sisters
w/ 2 Melta Guns, Veteran

20 Battle Sisters
w/ 2 Melta Guns, Veteran

20 Battle Sisters
w/ 1 Melta Gun, 1 Flamer, Veteran

1,500 points spot on.

This list would demolish a 180 Ork boy list, and this is an all comers list with those weapons. If you tailored for Orks (flamers) it would be even easier.

IJW
09-07-2008, 17:40
1,500 points spot on.
And no HQ...

Slaaneshi Slave
09-07-2008, 17:43
A Palatine is a HQ...

khornatedaemon
09-07-2008, 17:47
Mr. Ork horde meet Mr. Barbed strangler. Now play nice. I dunno. I can fit 8 stranglers in my army if I wanted, 6 at str 8. Then back it up with stealers and gaunts. Even a shooty tyrant with 3 guard will beat a weakened orc mob over a few rounds of combat if the nob doenst get really lucky. And it would prolly still be a decent all comers army.

senorcardgage
09-07-2008, 18:13
I don't think the question is whether or not an army of 180 orks can be beaten. I mean, of course, if you tool your army up to beat them you can probably give them a real good run for their money.

That said, what are the odds that in a regular pick up game that you'll have what it takes to stop them? That's the real question here.

Xirathnix
09-07-2008, 19:07
I don't think the question is whether or not an army of 180 orks can be beaten. I mean, of course, if you tool your army up to beat them you can probably give them a real good run for their money.

That said, what are the odds that in a regular pick up game that you'll have what it takes to stop them? That's the real question here.


QFT try to take an army to a tourney that will beat marine horde and an Orc horde. Marine horde MAY be able to do it but then your vulnerable to Eldar. Orc horde has a good chance to beat them all. You will definitely see horde Orcs become one of the most powerful armies in a tourney. Most Orc hordes will not be 180 boys, maybe 120+ with some back up.

Slaaneshi Slave
09-07-2008, 19:18
But, as previously stated there are armies which will destroy them both. Sisters of Battle, Nidzilla etc.

xinsanityx
09-07-2008, 19:22
I think the marines are going to be in better shape and the orks in worse shape, not because of list tailoring, but because i'm seeing alot of people pick up a decent amount of flamers for their army. The reason being the go to ground rule, plus the better cover saves given to terrain. A unit that goes to ground in terrain is going to have a 3+ cover save, unless you flame them and assault them they're going to be sticking around on that objective. You almost have to have flamers in your army now or fear a squad of 20+ orks, gaunts, kroot, or conscripts going to ground right on an objective and you have no way to get them off in time. More flamers means fewer ap3 guns, which is very good for marines.

IJW
09-07-2008, 19:35
QFT try to take an army to a tourney that will beat marine horde and an Orc horde. Marine horde MAY be able to do it but then your vulnerable to Eldar. Orc horde has a good chance to beat them all.
Ork horde in a tourney will run out of time.

johno
09-07-2008, 19:45
Ork horde in a tourney will run out of time.

That fits my experience, as well.

Even with the old Codex, taking a 1500 point army with 150 plus models to one of the Dark Stars events meant I only won the Meatgrinder missions - I couldn't get enough turns in to get the boys into hand to hand to do the damage I needed to offset the shooting I'd already taken.

After the first weekend, I made sure to take mekanised lists - everything had it's own transport, or could ride some other vehicle, or could infiltrate!

johno

khornatedaemon
09-07-2008, 19:49
its not going to be unstoppable because like was stated there are armies that can wreck it and marines. SoB and nids being two examples. I think a well done guard army with possible SoB support will do the same.

As a nid player I'm ready to take em all on. Horde orcs will die to stranglers and deathspitters in droves, and the rending nerf and powerfist nerf makes marines easier for me to deal with.

mkrulik@inet.hr
09-07-2008, 21:14
I thought that for 80 marines(dark angels so twice as many squads) in 1500 pts army until i played against it and wiped it out.

I think it can be done if u use your amry correctly-not to mention land speeders and such stuff which they cant catch.In cc hard hitting units like berzerkers geenstealers and such hurt them badly-12 geenstealers(48 attacks with charge) with re rolls to hit and to wound can kill one mob before it has a chance to strike back.Of course you soften them up befoer the charge with stranglers and stuff and there you have it.I f they dont die in combat they most certanly will when they flee or get additional 15 wounds.They can be grateful that almost all models can now make their attacks.If the kill zone was left they wouldnt stand a chance.

Would like to see it thou-the green tide!

sorienor
10-07-2008, 08:27
You don't need 180..even 120. 60-90 is plenty. A smart ork player wants you to focus on the horde..the mass of orks running at you are almost sacrificial..the trukks, bikes, lootas, stormboyz and flanking kommandos are what is going to kill you.

As far as flamers go, I laugh at them. By the time flamers are close enough to be used it's already too late. The only weapons that bug me are scatter lasers, heavy bolters and ass cannons.

And never..never..underestimate ork shooting.

Pyriel
10-07-2008, 13:41
the ork mob list is a good one because a 30-ork mob with the power claw guy is a very good unit.
so are 15 bloodletters/daemonettes.
so are 10 bladestorm & defend dire avengers(cheaper too).
so are 12 genestealers.

Orks are only considered so cheesy because they are the FIRST good tourney horde list so nobody knew how to counter.just because currently nobody plays anti-GEQ doesn't mean that good GEQ armies are an unstoppable horde.when, due to troops importance, more and more ppl will play GEQ units(troops etc.)and lists with heavy bolters and flamers make an appearance, THEN we see how "unstoppable"that horde list is.

current armies play(4th):
marines:lasplas and/or asscannon spam.
eldar:firedragons,holofalcons,small harlequins units, and jetbikes.
chaos marines:obliterators, daemon princes, and plasmagun-armed various marines.
IG:usually drop troops plasmaspam.
Tau:battlesuit/railgun spam etc.

the list goes on and on.when all these armies stop the various forms of lasplas MSU spam and convert to mob-type anti-GEQ, the whole environment will change.