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pol
07-07-2008, 22:22
I was playing a game with my friend with special caracter last night. I was Tau and he was Necron. I had Farsight and he had the Nightbringer. The result was.....disatrous....in 5 turn he completely destroyed me. First of all, the ranged weapon of the Nightbringer is simply a lascannon with less range (well a lot less) but can charge and move while firing it. One shot on Farsight and bye-bye (I failed my invulnerable save).Second, he have 8 in toughness meaning only str 5 can hit it: meaning it's extremely hard to even wound it except with tank and he still have 4+ invul save. Finally, the Nightbringer have the ability to automatically make units with 3 or less str to fall back. Since my FW were pretty close of the board edge I lost all them.
Even if the Nightbringer cost 360 pts (I think he is the most expensive unit) I think it worth the buy. So IMO the Nightbringer is overpowered.
How about you?

Vesica
07-07-2008, 22:31
Well he is a God, they could have made him completely invincible.

It could have just been luck that he won

jeramy404
07-07-2008, 22:31
The nightbringer is powerful, but by no means overpowered.

He moves 6, assaults 6, and your basic rifles can wound him. Sure, he makes your troops fall back, and has a lascannon at half range that he can move and fire, but honestly, he's pretty handleable.

It's looking to me like you just got unlucky, and perhaps should have set your troops up farther. But alas, if you weren't completely sure of his capabilities for destruction, then yes, I can see why you had trouble with him.

I'd say fight him again, now that you know what he's all about. I'm sure you'll have a much better time fighting against that 360pt footslogger.

-Jeramy

BorisGT
07-07-2008, 22:32
What was your army composition like? If you're playing with a lot of Fire Warriors or Suits of any kind, you could probably force a Phase Out before the NB did much damage to you.

Don't be afraid to use a unit as a speed bump for it, if possible. Just a little delay can help you get off that one extra round of shooting that would give you an advantage.

Paul Nexus
07-07-2008, 22:33
It's just a case of having the right unit for the job. My old Ulthwe Seer Council (3rd codex and strike force) could take him down fairly easily, either through mindwar spam or witch blade slapping. Or a squad of terminators. I'm ot a Tau player though so I can't help you with that one.

If there is a lot of terrain on the other hand... He can use it as cover then move straight through it.

Rending and poisoned weapons are your friends, though I don't think Tau have any of those.

stroller
07-07-2008, 22:40
Nightbringer is, as posted above, a god. He costs a lot of points, so you would expect him to be powerful. I don't use him every game but he does phase out if you take down enough warriors. I like him - and the deceiver... more gods please.....

shadow hunter
07-07-2008, 22:42
Forcing phase out is your best bet in small games. With 360pts on him, you don't need to kill as many necron models to phase him out. best to concentrate your army on everything else he has.

Lord Damocles
07-07-2008, 22:43
If anything, poor ol' Nightbringer is underpowered when compared to the Deciever...

That said, most Necron players will pick more Warriors / Destroyers over a C'tan.

Dyrnwyn
07-07-2008, 22:44
He's really not that great. Sure, he's got all kinds of awesome toughness and CC abilities, but he's a lot less useful than the Deceiver for more points. I might even consider him overcosted, since the Deciever more or less guarantees that you'll at least be able to use Grand Illusion, and Deceive, but the only Guarantee you're getting out of the NB is his half range lascannon. You just had the sort of experience a lot of people have the first time they run into a special character, where you weren't aware of what he could do and he ripped you a new one because of the lack of knowledge.

The NB only moves as fast as your Fire Warriors and can't teleport. You could have kept him out of combat indefinitely simply by walking away. The Lascannon equivalent can easily be avoided by making use of the usual Jump Shoot Jump tactics Crisis suits use, denying the NB any T4 targets. Yeah he's T8 with 5 wounds, but he's only got a 4+ save. You can put a wound on him every turn with nothing but a pair of Death Rains, and a trio of Broadsides ought to get at least one wound off of him, possibly two. Considering he has to slog across the board at 6" a turn for at least three turns and as a non independent Monstrous Creature has no targeting protection, he should drop to concentrated fire by turn 4. In fact, as Tau you're uniquely situated to drop him with minimal casualties, since the best way to take out a C'tan is either masses of S5+ shots, or mass snipers.

Durath
07-07-2008, 22:46
There are something things you have to keep in mind...

1. He is 360 points. This is THE single most expensive Codex (e.g. non-apocalypse) unit you can buy in the game. And it is just ONE unit. This means he can only shoot and charge one unit a turn.

2. It is standard infantry. So, its slow... this will change in 5th edition somewhat, but since he isn't fleet, he can't move, run and charge anyhow.

The obvious tactic is to take a unit which is fairly cheap, and throw it at him (kroot come to mind), keeping him tied up and wasting those points.

Oh, and the last thing to remember....

3. His points cost does not contribute models towards phase out. If your Necron opponent brought a 360 point model, you probably have a good shot a phasing him out, or are facing almost all warriors.

azimaith
07-07-2008, 22:48
I was playing a game with my friend with special caracter last night. I was Tau and he was Necron. I had Farsight and he had the Nightbringer. The result was.....disatrous....in 5 turn he completely destroyed me. First of all, the ranged weapon of the Nightbringer is simply a lascannon with less range (well a lot less) but can charge and move while firing it. One shot on Farsight and bye-bye (I failed my invulnerable save).Second, he have 8 in toughness meaning only str 5 can hit it: meaning it's extremely hard to even wound it except with tank and he still have 4+ invul save. Finally, the Nightbringer have the ability to automatically make units with 3 or less str to fall back. Since my FW were pretty close of the board edge I lost all them.
Even if the Nightbringer cost 360 pts (I think he is the most expensive unit) I think it worth the buy. So IMO the Nightbringer is overpowered.
How about you?
Erm, sounds like you had bad luck, weird rules, and a weird board set up. For one, farsight is an IC, how did the nightbringer shoot him in the face, why did you leave him as the closest unit? Next, you complain about S5 only hurting it when all your basic weapons *are* strength 5. If anything tau are well off against the nightbringer alone (his necrons, another story completely.)

Finally, why did you let the nightbringer waltz up at 6" a turn to your fire warriors to blast them off the board.

The nightbringer in general, underperforms as a killing tool and is instead more of a meat shield for necrons.

gLOBS
07-07-2008, 22:51
For Tau a single unit of broadsides would ruin his day rather fast.

Dalamyr the Fleetmaster
07-07-2008, 23:02
He's not overpowered, the way i've always dealt with him is to try and ignore him and blast the bejeebus out of everything that isn't a nightbringer. The army phases out along wiht c'tan problem solved!

zoodog
07-07-2008, 23:13
I would think the massed missile pods you could have in a farsight army would make short work of him. Given that the tau have very few weapons under strength 5 I would think you have alot less to complain about then others.

ukrocky
07-07-2008, 23:33
Night bringer is way too overpointed to work in any decent necron army.

For his points IIRC, I could have...22 warriors...8 Destroyers...14 Immortals...catch my drift?

Add onto that, if you face a decent list with a few heavy-anti-tank weapons in, with the necrons lack of tanks, his 4+ save ain't that great...

New Cult King
07-07-2008, 23:39
Tau are a very agile, mobile army, and their basic weapons are S5. I don't know what you did wrong, but he's very defeatable.

Azriel45
08-07-2008, 00:20
sounds like your main problem is that you let him get to close. My friend plays necrons. and he has a nightbringer. although he rarely uses it. my advice on him... stay away and shoot at him. there is no reason to let him get close to you. Tau are a highly mobile force. you can easily run circles around him.

Donblas
08-07-2008, 01:39
Snipers rip him apart the nightbringer is only bad if he gets in on you.

Sanctjud
08-07-2008, 03:52
No... he's vulnerable to Sniper Rifles and Rending, cause a 4++ isn't THAT great.

He's slow and CC can be avoided.

And his point cost hurts the Necron Army as a whole....he's equal to 20 Necron Warriors...that are scoring and ups Phase OUT.

My 7 Cents.

jhon
08-07-2008, 04:15
first thing first , you dont kill the nightbringer , you phase it out by killing other . nightbie only move 6 , run 6 , that means it will be turn 4 or 5 by the time he is in the charging zone . which will leave him only 3 or 2 turn of blood bathing , the god like combat power souldnt be a problem . the 24 inch death ray is an one shot per turn weapon that also souldnt be a problem . in a standard game 1500 pts , nightbie will chow up more than 1/5 of the army pts , which leave his army very small and very easy to phase out .. i m not saying nightbie is a paper unit .but if get butcher by nightbie that means either he is good or you suck because , nightbie is never over power .

CraftworldsRus
08-07-2008, 06:39
I find that the nightbringer is VERY easy to dodge. You can see where he is headed a mile away. I tend to keep a squad or two of Kroot in my army, and they can hold the nightbringer a turn or two, not to mention that he has almost no chance of catching a suit. I think you fell into the trap of thinking Farsight was stronger in CC then he was due to his fluff and the Dawn Blade.

Aaron
08-07-2008, 09:06
The Nightbringer is a close combat monster. He'll chew through most units without any difficultly.

However, as stated, he's slow and easily avoided. For the points, I'd rather take a Necron Lord and a Monolith. Or more Necrons.

The phase out really keeps a Necron army balanced. It's very hard to cheese out a Necron army.

Chaplain Mortez
08-07-2008, 09:46
Like others have said, the best thing to do is just ignore the thing. Necrons biggest weakness with their Star Gods and Monoliths is that these things are a lot of points, move slow, and have short-ranged weapons. If you focus on just killing Necrons, you can easily make your opponent phase out since they are running 1/4 of their army in one model.

MegaPope
08-07-2008, 09:58
Hang on, if the OP was using Farsight, wouldn't he also have been using Farsight's cadre as well? Does this still exist in the Tau Empire codex?

If it does, I remember that there are restrictions is operates under, mainly affecting the number of Railgun-toting units you can take. There's a possibility that the OP's very heavy firepower was actually being stretched.

Also, despite their firepower, the Tau are actually a force that is poorly placed to cause a rapid Phase Out. Most of their vaunted firepower is designed for precision destruction, not mass carnage. This isn't the Guard, where you can sit behind a hill and lob Earthshaker rounds into the warriors until the cows come home. Also, with 3 or 2+ saves, most units will get a save against the bulk of the Taus' very long ranged guns (Pathfinders and Sniper Drones notwithstanding, and they'll get WWBs against those). Crisis suits have to get very close for comfort, and the 'Crons have 'Cron units (adding to anti-phase level) that are agile enough to hunt them down - namely hoovers and heavy hoovers (Destroyers).

So I can see why this might be a tougher call than some people think. It looks like the Nightbringer did the job he was meant to do - act as a fire magnet, and a very good one.

One thing the Tau can do, even used as Farsight's cadre, is rapid redeployment. This is probably the OP's best bet, against the 'Crons in general, many of their units being quite slow. Of course, DS-ing 'Liths and Flayed Ones potentially can put a spanner in that plan.

Doomseer
08-07-2008, 10:43
The following count as 0-1 in Farsight's breakaway faction: Stealths, Pathfinders, Hammerhead, Broadsides, Sky Rays and Piranhas. No Ethereals, Kroot or Vespids either.

Basically loads of Fire Warriors, Crisis Suits and expendable Gun Drones, which is still enough to deal with Nightbringer.

It sounds like the OP was unlucky and unprepared for him, better luck next time!

x-esiv-4c
08-07-2008, 12:52
With a 6 inch movement there is only so much he can do.

Mercer
08-07-2008, 13:41
The Nightbringer has a poor save and won't last long in CC against a tough CC unit I.E Orks.

It doesn't matter whether the lightning attack is assault or not, as monstrous creatures don't count as carrying heavy weapons, so they still assault. The attack itself doesn't have the best of range, and only fires once.

Also the NB can only move 6" and has no transport. Just keep it away from you!

Mercer

DrDoom
08-07-2008, 20:24
Not particularly. He's easy to avoid and only gets one shot around with the lascannon. I've never seen him make his points back. Having said that I have no reliable way to kill him with the new Chaos Codex, although Typhus comes close.

Hicks
08-07-2008, 21:13
You're much faster than him and ALL your guns can wound him. I'm sure you wouldn't have trouble with him if you faced him again. Concentrate your fire on him for vengeance or just make the guy phase out by ignoring the NB.

pityedbythedicegods
09-07-2008, 00:06
First of all Durath in fifth ed you can't charge after running in 5th ed(I read the book already:))
Second as most people have already said snipers and str 5 shot's will kill him but theres another option since the nightbringer is 360 points thers alot less necrons to kill before you phase them out.

Dach
09-07-2008, 03:40
hmm since you guys already all helped him kindly i can say this...

Please learn how to play the game before saying something is overpowered ;)

Mullitron
09-07-2008, 08:37
No, as already mentioned as soon as you learn how to deal with him the nightbringer is easy to deal with. He can take on most characters in the game without breaking a sweat but unlike other characters he cant deepstrike,hide in units,use transport or fly. The deceiver is much better. Imop the nightbringer for his cost is under powered

TheOverlord
09-07-2008, 08:48
Nope, the OP is totally right. Overpowered is when the opponent brings anything that can beat, that one game.

He is totally overpowered :)

TheDarkFlame
09-07-2008, 19:17
more gods please.....

Sorry, not happening. There are only two more, one's locked away because it's insane (as it ate most of the other star-vampires) and the other is supposed to be the Omnissiah.

marv335
09-07-2008, 19:30
I hate to be harsh, but if a Tau army had trouble with the nightbringer, the player really needs to seriously reduce his personal level of suck.
The Tau are the best army in the game for taking down Necrons. Their rules almost seem specifically tailored to do it. all the troops basic weapons can wound anything, the railgun is pretty much the best weapon for Monolith killing, they can it back on the board edge and spendthe whole time killing.
Kroot are nasty in HtH vs warriors.
Having played with and against both armies many times, I can say with some confidence, from a Tau point of view Nightbringer is a gift.

Dyrnwyn
09-07-2008, 20:04
The Tau are the best army in the game for taking down Necrons. Their rules almost seem specifically tailored to do it. all the troops basic weapons can wound anything, the railgun is pretty much the best weapon for Monolith killing, they can it back on the board edge and spendthe whole time killing.
Kroot are nasty in HtH vs warriors.
I really have to disagree. Tau are possibly one of the least effective armies versus Necrons. The only things they can reliably down are the non-Necron units; Scarabs with the Hammerhead template, C'tan with pulse spam, Monolith with Railguns. The best ways to down Necrons are to hit them with big S8 AP3 weapons and melt piles of them at once, or hit them with some hard hitting, power weapon/rending assaulters. Tau have neither of these. Yes, the Res Orb can negate both of these things, but templates/assaults can take out gobs of Necrons at once, and in the case of assault, can be killing Necrons during your opponent's turn. The only Tau assault unit, Kroot are okay, but with 5th's system letting casualties come from anywhere and everyone getting a swing back, Kroot will charge in and probably tie combat (vs. Warriors at any rate) Next turn, the Warriors get Veiled/Portaled away, and the Kroot are massacred by fire. And that's assuming the Warriors are standing in the open like idiots instead of using cover, which would let them hit the Kroot first and drop thier attacks significantly.

Granted, I probably have a tougher time against Necrons than most Tau as I don't take Kroot, but even with Kroot, I'd have a tough time. In my last game against Necrons I had to devote about 70% of my armies shooting to taking out one unit of Warriors/Immortals at a time, and use the other 30% against incidentals like the minimum squad of Destroyers and the Nightbringer. The only reason I won was because my opponent had never played against Tau before, and was very conservative with how he played his D-body Lord, keeping it close to the Warriors for protection rather than flying into my lines to tear me a new one. On top of that, he wasn't careful with unit placement and reinforcement, so I was able to down entire squads and deny them WBB. Against stronger Necron generals, I generally have a real hard, uphill slog.


Having played with and against both armies many times, I can say with some confidence, from a Tau point of view Nightbringer is a gift.
Completely agree with this though. Monoliths and C'tan are something I can deal with. The last thing I want to see across from me is 70 Warriors and a ResOrb/Veil Lord.

Royal Tiger
09-07-2008, 20:08
what is it with all these stupid "is x overpowered" threads lately?

the answer just like all the others is NO, and in the nightbringers case its SUPER NO.

the nightbringer is laughable, so many points wasted on 1 guy, who dies just as easily as any other, if I had a penny the number of times I have seen this "god" die in games I'd have....well only a 1, but thats still allot

and heck if you ignore it and concentrate on everything else, its even easier