PDA

View Full Version : necron living metal



Walks-Astray
08-07-2008, 04:06
is living metal the same of necrodermis?
and are all the necrons made out of it or just monoliths and the material shell of the c'tans?
or are monoliths and c'tans made out of different materials?

The Lord of Hats
08-07-2008, 04:41
Yes, Living Metal is Necrodermis, and yes, all things Necron are made of it.

Koryphaus
08-07-2008, 06:19
And the Avatar of Khaine, funniy enough..

Here's a thought. The Brass Armour of Khorne that Bloodthirsters used to get - would that be Necrodermis as well?

Walks-Astray
08-07-2008, 12:29
are warriors, destroyers etc also made of living metal?

(it's funny that necrodemis means dead flesh)

Khaine's Messenger
08-07-2008, 12:35
All Necron technology appears to be made out of living metal or similarly engineered components, much like Eldar favor "psychoplastics" as building materials but more recent background has distilled most discussion of such materials down to wraithbone.

Mercer
08-07-2008, 12:46
And the Avatar of Khaine, funniy enough..

Here's a thought. The Brass Armour of Khorne that Bloodthirsters used to get - would that be Necrodermis as well?

I would have thought a Avatar of Khaine is made from stone, or wraithbone. According to background it says Khaine broke into pieces and a piece landed on each craftsworld. So I wouldn't say the avatar is made from Necrodermis as its Necron technology, and the avatar is actually piece of a warp entity.

The armour of a Bloodthirster wouldn't be Necrodermis at all.

Mercer

Azulthar
08-07-2008, 12:49
So, what kind of technology does living metal represent? Is it some sort of self-repairing nano-technology? I can't be 'magical' like the Eldar stuff.

Khaine's Messenger
08-07-2008, 12:59
It's probably some combination of nanomachines, memory metals, and some relevant variant of >>self-healing plastic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-healing_plastic)<<. I'd err towards nanomachines. Given that living metal can also "die" (rapidly rusting over, as described in Nightbringer), it probably also possesses a vital force of some kind. With that in mind, there's no reason it couldn't be "magic." The Laws of Physics are playthings for the masters of the Necrons. It just wouldn't likely be warp magic.

Azulthar
08-07-2008, 13:40
It's probably some combination of nanomachines, memory metals, and some relevant variant of >>self-healing plastic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-healing_plastic)<<. I'd err towards nanomachines. Given that living metal can also "die" (rapidly rusting over, as described in Nightbringer), it probably also possesses a vital force of some kind. With that in mind, there's no reason it couldn't be "magic." The Laws of Physics are playthings for the masters of the Necrons. It just wouldn't likely be warp magic.
I seem to recall the Necrontyr inventing living metal before the C'tan though. Then again, perhaps the C'tan improved it. I don't like adding "magic" to the Necrons though: the book seems to emphasize the Necrons as the force of "cold hard science" opposing the warp.

Khaine's Messenger
08-07-2008, 13:51
It's all very Clarke's Law or "post-singularity," though. Sufficiently advanced technology and all that. 40k just happens to use that sci-fi trope alongside "actual" magic...it makes things frustrating, but there you are.

DiddyKong
08-07-2008, 17:36
I seem to recall the Necrontyr inventing living metal before the C'tan though. Then again, perhaps the C'tan improved it. I don't like adding "magic" to the Necrons though: the book seems to emphasize the Necrons as the force of "cold hard science" opposing the warp.

yup, the necrontyr made the living metal. their spacey ships were made from it. they then made the necrodermis (sp?) for the C'tan, so they had a "body" to be in when they were actually on planets, not just eating them.

ive made a thoery too, that when the C'tan arnt in the bodies, fluff wise, they are beings of immense power etc, so i think the necrodermis sort of dulles their powers, so they can actually step foot on the ground.... needs fleshing out a bit, but its an idea....

Poseidal
08-07-2008, 17:45
I don't think the C'Tan are sentient when outside the Necrodermis. Before being discovered by the Necrontyr they just existed eating stars; only when the Necrodermis was given that they began to exhibit personality and plans, ultimately eating each other until there were only four left.

If the shell was never made, they would literally float from star to star eating them slowly.

re: Avatar

When Khaine beat the Nightbringer, the Necrodermis shell exploded and shards were aboserbed into him, 'tainting him'. In effect, these shards could be the way he manifests and was stuck in the material world rather than returning to the warp.

In effect, the Avatar is a warp entity (shattered Khaine) 'posessing' a Necrodermis which due to the nature of the material keeps him in the 'material' world, so unlike other daemons the Avatar is stable and doesn't return to the warp while the others are less bound so are vulnerable (or free) to return to their natural habitat of the warp.

I can't remember where I read this theory though, probably here...

DiddyKong
08-07-2008, 18:12
I don't think the C'Tan are sentient when outside the Necrodermis. Before being discovered by the Necrontyr they just existed eating stars; only when the Necrodermis was given that they began to exhibit personality and plans, ultimately eating each other until there were only four left.

If the shell was never made, they would literally float from star to star eating them slowly.

re: Avatar

When Khaine beat the Nightbringer, the Necrodermis shell exploded and shards were aboserbed into him, 'tainting him'. In effect, these shards could be the way he manifests and was stuck in the material world rather than returning to the warp.

In effect, the Avatar is a warp entity (shattered Khaine) 'posessing' a Necrodermis which due to the nature of the material keeps him in the 'material' world, so unlike other daemons the Avatar is stable and doesn't return to the warp while the others are less bound so are vulnerable (or free) to return to their natural habitat of the warp.

I can't remember where I read this theory though, probably here...

hmmmm. some good thoughts but i think it says int he codex that they were sentient. even before having the necrodermis crafted. think the sentence goes something like this, although i may of made it up, from lack of sleep....

"The C'tan were semi sentient formless beings who fed on energy. At first, they only drank the tasteless, but sustaining, energy from stars"

Poseidal
08-07-2008, 18:17
Ah, it was semi sentient; though semi sentience is not full sentience. In essence what I said holds true though, their intellect and schemes were of no consequence until the Necrontyr granted them bodies.

Luthien
08-07-2008, 18:20
I don't think the avatar is made from necrodermis, afaik when Khaine bested the Nightbringer shards of his shattered necrodermis embedded themselves in Khaine, tainting him with the Reaper aspect (so if it weren't for the C'tan dark reapers would presumably not exist). As an Avatar is a piece of Khaine it too is tainted by the necrodermis but is not made from it.

DiddyKong
08-07-2008, 18:24
Ah, it was semi sentient; though semi sentience is not full sentience. In essence what I said holds true though, their intellect and schemes were of no consequence until the Necrontyr granted them bodies.

aaah, i see. good point :)

just found this too
"When the Nightbringer was first summoned to a material body made of "steel like skin" called Necrodermis, it became aware of the material universe around it"

which suggests to me, as you said, they either didnt know, or care about the world before....

does that mean that now, when they are not in the metal bodies (i doubt they will be in it the whole time) that they know have plans, and schemes with things? or they still just eat things?

Clockwork-Knight
08-07-2008, 18:32
I don't think the avatar is made from necrodermis, afaik when Khaine bested the Nightbringer shards of his shattered necrodermis embedded themselves in Khaine, tainting him with the Reaper aspect (so if it weren't for the C'tan dark reapers would presumably not exist). As an Avatar is a piece of Khaine it too is tainted by the necrodermis but is not made from it.You know, it could be that this peculiar story about Khaine battling the Nightbringer and stuff is rather a metapher for a supereldar-fleet fighting a supernecron-fleet, and pieces of the enemy's flagship crushing into the other after a very devastating battle.
Of course, that's only a personal theory of mine. :)

PondaNagura
08-07-2008, 20:50
you know i always speculated the living metal to be either nanomachines, or some alien malleable space-coral...more of an actually regenerative living material.

as for the AoK, i dunno it's always described as iron or sorts, i thought it'd be more relevant to the metal aspect of wraithbone (though not actually wraithbone), or the other psychically conductive materials they use...since the avatar is generally summoned for the most fire consequences, and from the summoned consciousness of the craftworld.

azimaith
08-07-2008, 21:58
I don't know that the c'tan were non-sentient before the necrodermis, after all, they still seem to return to their form after having their necrodermis destroyed which if they were non-sentient, you'd expect they wouldn't even remember it.

I think its more that they percieve things very differently. The C'tan for example, might percieve energy entirely not paying much attention to gross quantities of matter, like being able to view dark energy but not regular matter.

We know that they depict Khaine and the Nightbringer fighting and the nightbringer tainting khaine as its necrodermis shattered from his spear thrust, perhaps thats why they say "Kaela mensha khaine" as the nightbringer is "Kaelis Ra"

As for all necrons made of the same living metal, that I don't think anyone can really say. One could presume that the living metal cladding the C'tan would exhibit different properties compared to the living metal on a necron warrior or on a necron space craft. Or they could all be identical.

MrBigMr
08-07-2008, 22:15
I can't believe that theory of mine is actuall picking up. I just came up with it, but now others start to pass it around. I would like to point out that it comes with a sideorder of salt.

But the facts are:
-Necrodermis holds energy. As shards they wouldn't have been enough for other than to hold onto Khaine, but once he was shattered, the shards of Necrodermis could have sucked up the bits.
-Necrodermis can phase, enabling it to pass with the C'Tan. There's nothing prevending it to phase in the Warp as well, which would make it immune to destrouction, as it's not really in existence at that moment, but in somesort of a pocket space.
-Khaine was tainted by the Nightbringer (physical matter on a Warp entity?).
-Avatar's body is metal. Not wraithbone or anything like that, but metal.


But I was reading the Codex: Craftworld Eldar today and came across an interesting bit about Khaine:

"...he fought alongside the the demi-gods of the Yngri to cast the children of Isha from Heaven."

Khaine joined forces with the C'Tan against the Eldar? Totally new to me.

azimaith
08-07-2008, 22:18
I can't believe that theory of mine is actuall picking up. I just came up with it, but now others start to pass it around. I would like to point out that it comes with a sideorder of salt.

But the facts are:

-Necrodermis can phase, enabling it to pass with the C'Tan. There's nothing prevending it to phase in the Warp as well, which would make it immune to destrouction, as it's not really in existence at that moment, but in somesort of a pocket space.

A point of contention on this, considering that the nightbringers greatest weapon was supposedly thrown into the warp you'd think if he could phase in and out in the warp he'd just have recalled the thing. Sounds like something a teleport device would be handy on.

MrBigMr
08-07-2008, 22:35
Ah, but one doesn't simply enter the Warp just like that. Even the Tau have Warp jump drives, but are unable to enter the Warp. If a Necron is sucked into the Warp and it teleports to its Tomb World, it would appear to the location of the Tomb World, but in the Warp. So if the Nightbringer could recall his weapon, it would come to him, just beyond the fabric of space, withing the Warp.

And the Nightbringer can't enter the Warp, as it's poisonous to them. The C'Tan are purely material creatures (even if energy), so a realm of non-matter is alien to them. It's like taking a fish out of the water. Only their Necrodermis would be phased, not the C'Tan itself. They would still be in full form within the Warp and subject to all the dangers of it.

I see it like this.

Real Space
========
Void
~~~~~~~
Warp

There's a space between the Warp and real space. This is what the Necron tech uses. Their ships can move so fast, because it uses a medium that is not reality but not the Warp either. Everything in the Warp should reflect real space, so if I enter the Warp and move 10 meters to the left, and exit, I should be 10 meters to the left in real space as well. The problem are the currents and other time distorting effect of the Warp, etc.

Now, if the shards of Necrodermis are phased with Khaine, it doesn't matter which side of the void he is, since the shards are phased in the void and move with him in 3D. Unlike the Nightbringer, Khaine isn't as limited with movement between the Warp and real space. He can move in and out, where as the Nightbringer is limited to real space.

Paul Nexus
08-07-2008, 23:07
C'Tan cannot enter the warp. That is why a race such as the Eldar were created with their mastery of the warp and psychic powers.

Going back to an earlier post, C'Tan wouldn't suddenly lose sentience because their Necrodermis is destroyed. They were described as semi sentient as they were not aware of everything around them, purely energy which they consumed. They were not in the warp, merely out of phase with the rest of the universe. When the Necrontyr made contact with them it opened their eyes to a whole new universe. Souls of the living. Better than any star.

I would imagine that they would endeavour to take a new host Necrodermis immediately after destruction to affect the material world once more.

PondaNagura
09-07-2008, 02:47
the necrodermis was like a psychedelic delight to them...it enhanced their perception beyond the base physical principles of a nerd, and into real-life perception of a socially functional being within cosmic society....

when you blast them out of the necrodermis, it's not like they revert to their boring nerd state, but rather enter the low state of an addict.

azimaith
09-07-2008, 03:00
A note on the "warp is poisonous to them."
It specifically says its anathema to them, anathema is a noun, its a person, place or thing, not an adjective. By its definition it means the warp is something (to the c'tan) that is consigned to destruction, loathed and hated. Not that the C'tan would be destroyed specifically by entering it. (I don't think they can enter it, or if they did, perhaps couldn't get out.)

If something is anathema to you it means you hate it or consigned it to destruction (or you excommunicated it), not that it will destroy you (though it doesn't prevent it!)

MrBigMr
09-07-2008, 10:56
I put my money on that Vaul knew what he was doing when he invented an array of guns streaming raw Warp energy as an anti-C'Tan weapon. I mean, cats don't like water, but if you have a freaking huge cat destroying the town, you don't go squirting water on it.

"Bad kitty, look what you did."

If Warp just was an annoyance to the C'Tan, what were the Talismans suppose to cause? Squirt him with Warp energy and slowly drive him out of the galaxy?

MvS
09-07-2008, 11:31
I regard the 'living metal' as being just that - truly alive. Perhaps on a similar level to coral or molluscs.

This probably means that the word 'metal' is a little flawed because of all the baggage that comes with it, but if we imagine that the nano-technology of the necrontyr could create molecular sized nanites, or even smaller, and if we imagine that the Necrontyr could harness all sorts of exotic energies, magnetic fields and dimensions, then the idea of truly alive 'metal' works for me.

The benefit of such a material to the C'tan would be that whereas biological matter might not be hardy enough to contain all the raw energy of such an entity (we know human bodies and other biological systems have problems with daemonic possession, despite that this is a very different sort of 'energy'), living metal is extremely durable and self-repairing, so it can take far more wear and tear before breaking down.

The idea that the necrodermi were truly alive was a large part of the reason I put the reference to Khaine being trapped by the remnants of the Nightbringer's shell in Liber Chaotica Slaanesh. The Necrodermis was alive and so therefore the prime vessel for trapping a Warp entity (like human bodies), but it was also nearly indestructible metal which meant that the Warp entity bound to it couldn't escape so easily. I touched upon how imagined this in clearer terms in my first thread on Warseer.

This is a contenscious area though and likely not to filter through to any new codices are whatever.

Regarding the Warp being anathema to the C'tan. I think this has been taken too literally or perhaps a bit too far. It doesn't seem to be Kryptonite to the C'tan, robbing them of their strength just by proximity.

I imagine it as being their ultimate bane for two reasons:

1. For whatever reason the C'tan do not have a Warp presence or connection and so they cannot manipulate the Warp like the psychic species in the galaxy. They can manipulate most of the dimensions and forces of the 'physical' universe to counter many of the effects of warp that has leaksed or been dragged into Realspace, hence Cadia's Pylons, but they cannot wield warp (as in the energy) or perceive the Warp (as in the dimension) per se. This makes it a largely unknown and unpredictable enemy for them.

2. Because the C'tan can monkey around with most of the observable forces of Realspace, most weapons that operate using the forces of the physical universe will have a limited utility against them - especially back at the height of the C'tan's powers during the Old One wars.

Because of the C'tan's utter absence of ability to wield or control them, warp energy, psychic powers, divine/daemonic consciousnesses and so on represent the most effective weapons against the C'tan.

Certainly the C'tan might be able to fold space and vanish before that Warp Lightning of Transmutation hits them, but then if an enemy was attacking them with mechanically generated static-electrical 'lightning' there's probably no reason a C'tan couldn't go all Neo on it, take control of the energy and dissipate it.

So in this latter case the C'tan can essentially takle control of the weapon being used against them, in the former case with the warp lightning all the C'tan can do if flee or stay and just try to survive the onslaught.

Hence Warp can be described as being anathema to the C'tan. It's the only weapon that they cannot snatch and turn against the wielder and it is the only weapon that can consistently harm them. It isn't like Kryptonite to them though.

I think.

Hellebore
09-07-2008, 14:45
A note on the "warp is poisonous to them."
It specifically says its anathema to them, anathema is a noun, its a person, place or thing, not an adjective. By its definition it means the warp is something (to the c'tan) that is consigned to destruction, loathed and hated. Not that the C'tan would be destroyed specifically by entering it. (I don't think they can enter it, or if they did, perhaps couldn't get out.)

If something is anathema to you it means you hate it or consigned it to destruction (or you excommunicated it), not that it will destroy you (though it doesn't prevent it!)

We're just going to have to disagree on that then.

Contextually, the authors pretty clearly used it to mean a bane or single weakness.

The description of the engines of vaul being created to destroy the C'tan also supports this.

It wouldn't be the first time GW's authors used a word in a slightly different way to its original meaning.

Hellebore

MrBigMr
09-07-2008, 15:11
I agree with MvS on the metallurgy thingamajig.


I remember some theory (or was it something that came from my insane little brain, I don't remember) that characterized living metal as artificial cellular stucture, where eneregy replaces DNA. So one "cell" of living metal is just grey goo, but once intruduced with energy, it picks the pattern of that energy and forms the goo into shapes and forms. Necron bodies (Warriors, etc.) are preprogrammes, sort of shame memory alloy, that makes them keep their original shape when re/deformed (bolt to the chest). But the C'Tan bodies are different, their bodies being but a bunch of goo that they inhabit and can reform their bodies and take all sorts of shapes and sizes.


Naturally I use the term "goo" liberally, not meaning that once without control the Necron/C'Tan bodies turn into mercury or something. The Avatar's body is a statue, but then again, the possessing element of Khaine doesn't go away, merely slumbers within and that alone should be enough to keep the body in shape.

azimaith
09-07-2008, 17:10
We're just going to have to disagree on that then.

Contextually, the authors pretty clearly used it to mean a bane or single weakness.

The description of the engines of vaul being created to destroy the C'tan also supports this.

It wouldn't be the first time GW's authors used a word in a slightly different way to its original meaning.

Hellebore
I'm sure its a bane, otherwise they wouldn't loathe it so.
As for a weakness, probably, c'tan are energy beings the warp is pure energy. I believe it would be rather hard to kill a C'tan non-energy style attack making the warp a perfect place to draw upon the large amounts of energy necessary to blast one. But the idea if they touch it they suddenly explode or anything isn't necessarily true.

Remember that it being an anathema does not exclude it from being a weakness, it just doesn't specify it as one. My problems merely with the definition, not with the concept they have trouble with the warp.

PondaNagura
09-07-2008, 23:00
they would just kind of dissipate within the warp, their sentience if retained torn apart by the forces and entities of that realm, that they hold no sway over.

El_Machinae
09-07-2008, 23:58
Ah, it was semi sentient; though semi sentience is not full sentience. In essence what I said holds true though, their intellect and schemes were of no consequence until the Necrontyr granted them bodies.

Something goes from semi-sentient to fully sentient once it has access to multiple senses in a changing environment. A baby in the womb (in the last trimester) is mainly 'semi-sentient', but goes quickly to fully sentient once their senses are stimulated. BUT, removing a person's senses doesn't convert them back into semi-sentient.

The C'tan could be the same way. In the stars, they only had a couple of sensory inputs in a fairly unchanging environment (since they occupied most of the star). Once they have senses, though, they become sentient and probably stay that way.