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Conotor
08-07-2008, 20:09
In my experience, pretty much all magic is seavearly overpriced.

I have taken a second gen slann, and killed all sources of dispel dice and scrolls by turn 2, and his biggest effect on the game was still the improvement of nearby sarri's LD from 8 to 9.

I have faced 3 HE mages, and they had less of an effect then the 1 RBT he took.

The only times magic really effected games I played was once when an orc player got off 3 of the orcs last spell, and against VC (Valhalen's Dance).


As a lizzardmen player who fields lots of 3+ cavalry, I should be feeling a lot of pain from magic, but I'm not. Does any1 else find magic a bit overpriced?

Bretonnian Lord
08-07-2008, 21:03
I think magic is fine as it is. It's a bit of a risk, but when you win the gamble it can pay off big. Some of the best spells don't directly deal damage, but help your units/hinder the enemy (lots of spells in Lore of Beasts comes to mind, stuff like HE magic that makes units stubborn or gives them a 5+ ward, etc...)

Ethlorien
08-07-2008, 21:07
I voted that I think it's fine. Not a big fan of it myself, but that's just my play-style more then anything. Price wise, it's never been an issue.

wizuriel
08-07-2008, 21:46
it ranges from fine to amazing imo.

VC and daemon magic can be game winning and sometimes a lucky spell does the trick.


I played dwarfs with my chaos dwarfs in 1k game and the first turn my sorc got an irresitable magical missle spell off that killed 2 orgun gun crewmen.

semersonp
08-07-2008, 21:52
magic in warhammer is a risky investment...

your troops can be propelled forward by invisible hands, enemies can be burned to a crisp from hundreds of yards away or stopped dead in their tracks...

or your mages head can explode, no spells will go off, etc...

them's the chances

i usually have 6 power / 4 dispel dice in my weakest magic army with a dispel scroll up one of my shaman's sleeves... or tucked somewhere slightly less savory - he is a savage orc, after all :)

Cycorax
08-07-2008, 21:58
Like some people have said its a bit of a gamble, and risks are always fun. My only pain is that i never seem to be able to roll irresistible force rolls, period!!

Frankly
08-07-2008, 22:11
I like the risk verse reward of the magic phase.

I think the magic phase is overpriced at the moment, but I don't think thats a bad thing.

I'm running a very strong VC magic phase, which weakens my armylist and leaves it open to being run down by hordish CC armylists. This is the major risk for magic heavy list imho. Investing in characters at the risk of running a low body count armylist. An armylist that can't stand up to much harrassment and lacks flexiblity to deal with a wide range of situations. I think utimately your playing with a 'paper, scissors, rock' kind of list.

And the fact that the magic phase can be canelled out by dispel dice, dispel scrolls, magic items etc, etc. This can leave you sitting there with four points sinking characters that have effectively killed your list, its a huge risk.

To be honest, I'd like to see the magic phase move the way of VC magic in general terms, where its easy cast/easy dispel and improves the over all performance of the armylist, alot move unit buffs and/or debuffs the opponants list, as opposed to straight out nuke and direct damage spells. I'd prefer if armybook spell lists started getting more tactical than offensive.

redrum
08-07-2008, 22:21
So you took a 2nd gen Slann once and it didn't do much, therefore magic is overpriced? Um, I dunno I've had pretty good luck with my 2nd Slanns. Except for me making huge tactical blunders with them they've always pulled their weight. And I've had HE and Ogre magic users cause me all sorts of trouble. It sounds like you've just had some bad luck.

Leogun_91
08-07-2008, 22:58
Magic is good but for some reason no one that brings a second generation slann against me has a good magic phase, that is just strange but they do roll an unbelivable number of ones.

rodmillard
08-07-2008, 23:21
I voted that magic is rather powerful, but IMO that's because of the way its selected. Its far easier to min-max magic than, say, war machines or unbreakable troops, and far harder to counter.

I believe certain options are overpriced, notably the older generation slann, for the potential benefits they bring to an army, but on the other hand certain options are underpriced (any of the 7th ed magic using SCs for a start). On balance, I suspect all the points for magic need tweaking in one direction or another, but as I've said before, magic (specifically PD pools) are one of the few concrete examples of power creep between the 6th and 7th ed armies - although not between the armies in 7th ed, just between old and new.

High Elves, Vampire Counts, and Daemons are all capable of generating massive pools of power dice, to the point where their magic is very hard to counter. I see no reason for this trend to slow down with the next 4 releases (DE, Warriors of Chaos, Lizardmen, and Beasts of Chaos have all traditionally had the option to go magic heavy, and all the rumours are that its going to get easier). By contrast, Khorne armies for both daemons and mortals have lost much of their anti-magic capability, and I suspect sacred hosts of Tepok will go the same way (if they are still an option) under the new rules for Lizardmen. Until all the 6th ed books have been updated, there will always be a disparity between the old and new edition lists in terms of magical capability - and of course at that point 8th edition will come out and the whole cycle will begin again (only probably not with magical power next time)

Condottiere
08-07-2008, 23:42
Magic is alright, though I do believe that for some lists it's too easy to come by.

Frankly
09-07-2008, 00:00
High Elves, Vampire Counts, and Daemons are all capable of generating massive pools of power dice .... to the point where their magic is very hard to counter.

Theme wise this is how it should be though, shouldn't it? I mean I play VC in this E.d. to play a magic heavy list for the express reason of raising brainless zombie hordes for example.

You second point is an issue that I think alot of people have a problem with and why for some players magic has a bad rep.

nurgle_boy
09-07-2008, 00:21
If anything, it can be rather unbalencing, especially when there is little or no antimagic on the other side.being out-powerdiced by only 2 or 3 against the old tzeench list with counts left me massacred as units attacked themselves (ghouls make a mess of ghouls!).

It can be a real tactical challenge getting around the magic phase and is often a case of choosing which units you let get hit, and which you pour dice into to protect.

it sounds like the OP had some bad luck, or may have misjudged something in the game such as taking the wrong lore.

Ward.
09-07-2008, 00:57
I voted rather powerful.

That's because I play skaven and warp lightning was up until the new daemon book the best magic missile available. I've also noticed a lot more people loosing in the magic phase then before, but frankly is right, it's always been that way against VC, HE and DOC.

Rodman49
09-07-2008, 01:07
Uh, High Elf Archmage with Book of Hoeth = roughly 70% chance irresistible if using five dice, like 62% with 4 dice . . . Vaul's Unmaking and Flames of Phoenix can decide games easily.

OldMagik
09-07-2008, 02:33
now if only vaul's unmaking affected our LM sacred plaques as one of them can give our slann a 2+ ward against ur Flames of Phoenix :D. My 4th Gen slann gets +1 to cast / dispel and doesn't take and miscasts. Not only that but he can hold off 6 levels of magic at once. I've done it before. a Level 4 and Level 2 held off by no not a 2nd gen a 4th gen :D. So unlike most ppl im not to worried bout magic.

IMHO i think magic is fine. It isn't to overpowered if you know how to hold it off and what magics to let through and wha not to. Sure some spells can own my slann in a sec but know one i've fought uses those tactics. They kill him in combat (yes it has happened to me 2 giants overwhelmed him with a double headbutt!).

Conotor
09-07-2008, 04:03
High Elves, Vampire Counts, and Daemons are all capable of generating massive pools of power dice, to the point where their magic is very hard to counter.

And they pay a lot to do this. I VC can get buy with the speed the magic gives them, but elves get overwhelmed by their enemies bulkeyer armies, and i would assume the same with deamons, although I have not played them.

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-07-2008, 04:20
Demons are brutal. No two ways about it, they are hard. They can go through the entire spectrum of magic, from being the most power dice in the game to nothing at all, but there magic is very potent and if they want it they can get it to work very nicely. But even if they invest heavily in magic your not just going to run over them unless the demon player lets you I'd say.

Anyway, magic is fine, in some cases amazing. Games can easily be won or lost in the magic phase(just as in any other). It's an expensive phase to buy into sure, but assuming you bring enough power you do get your points worth in return.

The problem with magic isn't that it isn't worth it's points, the problem is that the way magic defence works you need to buy your own magic to get it.

Tuch
10-07-2008, 00:57
The price for what you can do is fine when it works. If you are shut down it will many times cost you the game if you went magic heavy.

Personally I find that the biggest problem with magic is that it gets shutdown in the first two turns, which is when you need it to work the most.

Conotor
10-07-2008, 02:13
Personally I find that the biggest problem with magic is that it gets shutdown in the first two turns, which is when you need it to work the most.

Why do u need it most in the first 2 turns? Loads of spells only work when combat is going on, or will be soon...

MrBigMr
10-07-2008, 11:00
I'd say yes. Some get it at a good price or almost free, but other have to pay good money they could use elsewhere. I especially like it how daemons, creatures of pure Warp essence crap out on magic if not fully kitted out. Or Tzeentchian. My army has 2 lvl. 1 mages tops, because I can't afford more. Doesn't change much from the old SoC list where I only had a single lvl. 2 mage.

Rarely get to cast anything, but it's the thought that counts. Right?



Now I quess someone will start telling me how to do magic in a daemon army...
"Take a GD, Tzeentch heralds, etc. etc."

zak
10-07-2008, 20:34
I think magic is fine as it is. The power is relative to armies and the amount of points your willing to spend. I feel that a level 4 will more often than not do well. It may not win the game, but there are few units that will win a game on it's own.

Voodoo Boyz
10-07-2008, 21:37
The problem is that for some armies, Magic is very overpriced and not very effective. But for others it's a single game-winning ability that can be relied/spammed upon to make the game one sided and unfair (see VC, Tzeench Demons).

Urgat
10-07-2008, 22:35
I got wasted so many times by magic it's not funny. So no, I don't think it's either underpowered or overcosted. Only thing wrong about magic is the Waaagh fiasco table :p